duration and that after the war I might once more resume my profession of architect.
DR. FLAECHSNER: At this point I should like to mention a passage from document 1435 which deals with a speech delivered by Speer, which he made ten days after he assumed office, and this document shows that he very unwillingly and hesitatingly changed his sphere of activity, and I quote:
"I can say for myself that my personal contribution is a very large one. Up until very recently I moved in an ideal situation." 2 of my document book, page 5 of the English text and page 2 of the French and Russian texts, on 8 May 1942 Hitler stated, and I quote:
"The Fuehrer thereupon stated repeatedly that the Reich Ministry Speer would be dissolved on the day when peace was concluded." 20 September 1944. Mr. President, this may be found on page 6 of the English text, page 3 of the French and Russian texts. From this document you can see that Speer was considered hostile to the Party because of his collaborators. Bormann said that. Speer said in his memorandum -- and I quote "The task which I have to fulfill is a non-political one.
So far I have enjoyed my work, since I personally and my work were evaluated strictly according to professional achievements, but I do not feel strong enough to carry out without hindrance and successfully the technical work to be accomplished by myself and my co-workers if it is to be measured by Party political standards. BY DR. FLAECHSNER:
Q Mr. Speer, can you give me the fundamental principles according to which you set up and developed your ministry?
THE PRESIDENT: What exhibit number are you giving that?
DR. FLAECHSNER: Exhibit No. 1, Mr. President. BY DR. FLAECHSNER
Q Mr. Speer, can you tell me the fundamental principles which you applied and observed when you built up your ministry?
expert. Therefore, I gathered the best possible experts to be found in Germany and selected them as my co-workers. I believed that these men were to be found within industry itself. Therefore, set up my ministry from industry. It took these man in, in a position of honor, and this was something which was carried on in the United States in a similar way during the war, especially which it came to matters of production. Civil servants or professional officials were lacking, and you can not really consider my ministry a real ministry along the old lines. that in June 1944 I delivered a speech in Essen, in order that I could defend myself against the various attacks in Party circles upon my system.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Mr. President, I believe that the High Tribunal is not yet in possession of the document book volume which contains the interrogatories Otherwise I should like to refer the High Tribunal to the statement given by witnesses Sauer and Schieber, which are relevant in this connection.
THE PRESIDENT: If you will given us the reference--Give us the names oft** witnesses. We can take notice of them afterwards. What is the name?
DR. FLAECHSNER: The witness Sauer, and we are dealing with his answers t Point 4,5 and 8 of the interrogatory. The witness Schieber under figure 12 of his interrogatory gives a statement and testimony relating to this point.
Now I shall take up the speech given by Speer in June 1944. I should like submit it as Exhibit No. 2. It confirms the testimony which the defendant has just made about the development of his ministry, in regard to the honorary memberships on the part of industry. I should like to quote it, for I am sorry t say that this speech is contained in my supplementary volume as well. I am sorry I will just have to read it, and I quote:
"These honorary co-workers dra*---*om industry--"
THE PRESIDENT : Dr. Flaechsner, it is a little bit inconvenient to the Tribunal not to have these documents before them. You could not possibly postpone the particular documents that you have not got here until tomorrow morning Shall we have the supplementary volume then?
DR. FLAECHSNER: The promise was given me that it would be at our disposal this afternoon. I expect to have it by tomorrow, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, well, then, would it be convenient to leave those Parts which are contained in the supplementary volume over until tomorrow?
DR. FLAECHSNER: Mr. President, in the supplementary volume we find only five very short documents, with which I shall not concern myself today, except for this one speech which I am mentioning new. It is the first document found in the supplementary volume.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. FLAECHSNER: I quote:
"These honorary co-workers, drawn from industry, carry the responsibility to the last detail for what is going on in the various enterprises and industry and how."
Then a few lines further down;
"Among your tasks, next to the awarding of contracts to these industries, the duty to limit the type and the specialiazation of these industries and, und certain circumstances, to close certain enterprises, the rationalization of raw materials along constructive and productive lines, and the unconditional exchange of experience, without regard to schutzrechte--paterts." considered his office an instrument which was improvised for the existing authorities of the Reich for the fulfillment of this task and was to be used without concerning himself with these tasks personally.
in the speech of Speer, shows that he prohibited his offices from turning into administrative offices. The defendant did not went a bureaucratic system in his Ministry.
THE PRESIDENT: What speech of Speer are you referring to? You said the decree of the 10th of August.
DR. FLAECHSNER: It is still the same speech, Mr. President, which I just mentioned, and the decree is mentioned therein.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't get what the year was when you began. What was the year?
DR. FLAECHSNER: The year was 1942, the 10th of August, and the speech was given in the year 1944. Therefore, he was referring to a decree which had been in force for some time. bureaucratic, new forces in his Ministry is shown from the passage which I would like to quote now:
"Any arrangement which is to last for some period of time and which exceeds a certain size has a tendency to become bureaucratic. Even if, in a large attack on Berlin, large parts of the current files of the Ministry are burned and therefore, for all time, we are lucky enough to have unnecessary ballast taken from us, we cannot expect that an occurrence of that sort will bring new vigor into our work." BY DR. FLAECHSNER:
Q Mr. Speer, so far as the Tribunal wishes, will you please supplement these statements, but briefly?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Flaechsner, you read us the speech.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to be very remote as it is, an why you should want to supplement it, I don't know.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Mr. President, I thought it might be of interest to the High Tribunal to know the sphere of activity and Function which the defendant had in his capacity as a minister.
This speech was made to experts and, therefore, it contains only these things of interest to an expert. I assumed that the High Tribunal would wish to know just what was the task of the production ministry of Mr. Speer. I think the prosecution grow a wider circle about his tasks than actually was the case.
THE PRESIDENT: If you want to know what he says about the tasks of his ministry, you can ask him. But you have just been reading his speech, and we don't want to-
DR. FLAECHSNER (Interposing): No, no, Mr. President. No, no, he is not to read his speech. I don't want him to read his speech. He is just to give us some of the technical tasks of his ministry, but briefly.
THE PRESIDENT: You don't seem to be hearing me accurate ly. Wouldn't it be better if you put your earphones on? didn't want to hear any more argument upon the speech from the defendant. If you want to ask the defendant what the tasks of his ministry were, ask him. What you asked him was, "Do you wish to supplement the speech?" BY DR. FLAECHSNER:
Q Mr. Speer, will you please tell us briefly what the tas*---* were which your ministry had to carry out? And please do not refer to the things that I mentioned in the speech. ter are the same and are well known in all industrial states. I just wanted to summarize briefly which functions I had to concern myself with in detail in this ministry. metals, steel, and we had to do away with that deficiency. Then, through an introduction of the Fliessbandarbeiter, workers on the assembly line, as is customary in the United States, which was not current in Germany, it was being produced. That is, the use of chain production, to save room. Also, it was imperative, further;
to have the production bases expanded for fine steel, for aluminum, for forgings, for ball bearings. One of the main tasks was the development of new weapons and the introduction of new weapons into the production sphere. Then, finally, beginning with 1943, the doing away with of the tremendous damage which obtained because of tremendously heavy bombing attacks, and which forced us to use improvised means and methods.
Q What was the importance of your activity? was of the utmost importance at home, especially since it concerned itself with equipment for the army, because I claimed that during the war the rest of the economy would have to be set up according to the demands of armament. In times of war, at home, there are only two aims or purpose : To furnish soldiers for the front, and to supply weapons.
Q Why was the task of your ministry a war function or task ?
but during a war this regulating factor is lacking. to have a hand in the distribution of orders ? at the end of 1944. However, you were responsible for the entire sphere of armament and war production. Can you tell me briefly in what fields this development was carried through, and how the extent of your task grew ? with the number of workers.
In 1942 I had armaments and building programs. I had taken those over, and I had 2,600,000 workers. In the spring of 1943 Doenitz gave me the responsibility for naval armament as well, and thereforem at this point, I had 3,200,000 workers. In September of 1943, through an agreement with the Minister of Economy, Mr. Funk, the produdtion task of the Ministry of Economy was also transferred to me. With that I had twelve million workers working for me.
Finally, I took over air armament. I took that over from Goering on the 1st of August, 1944. With that my total production had risen to fourteen million workers, and all production was marshalled under me. The number of workers applies to the Greater German Riech, without the occupied countries. ministry that consisted of honorary members and a ministry which did not concern itself with purely administrative matters ?
A We had no experience along those lines. The administrative sectors in the various departments retained their tasks. In that way, in the Army, the Heereswaffenamt--the Army Weapon Office-- which contained several thousand workers, supervised the carrying through of this work and saw to it that the orders were carried out in a proper way. Only in that way did I succeed in having the entire armament production--which amounted to three to four billion marks a month--carried through with an honorary co-worker staff of about six thousand people.
Q Were all enterprises subordinate to you ?
A No. There was a small group of enterprises and industries which were run with their own workers, and these were exempted.
In this connection, the work of the SS was excluded from my domain as well. of foreign workers, you were responsible for the bringing in of prisoners of war from concentration camps and prisoner of war camps.
A In this connection neither I nor the ministry were responsible. The ministry was a now establishment, which had a technical problem to deal with. None of the offices which existed assumed any jurisdiction or competence in this regard. The conditions of work were still handled through the old existing authorities. The Food Ministry and the various offices connected with it were responsible for this, and the various supervising agencies in the Reich Ministry were responsible for maintenance, for working conditions at the place of work; the Trustees of Labor, working under the Plenipotentiary for Manpower, were responsible for the time of work, or for conditions of work and work achieved; and the Health Office of the Health Ministry was responsible for health conditions. The Justice Department and the Police Department were responsible for violations against labor discipline, and finally, the German Labor Front was responsible for representing the interests of labor, as compared to the factory manager. Reich Commissioner. The fact that the SS and its concentration camp internees were outside the control is not a matter which I or my ministry represented.
Q. Your co-defendant Sauckel testified to the effect that with the carrying out of the recruiting of workers to the industries, his task was finished. Does that apply in that way according to your opinion?
A. Yes. As far as the recruiting of workers is concerned, yes, for it was one of the points of an issue of conflict between Sauckel and me, that the suitable use of workers in industry itself was to be a matter of the man in charge of the industry and that it was not to be regulated or influenced by the labor office but it applied only to labor recruitment and not for the observing of labor agreements. In this connection, the office of Sauckel was the supervising office.
Q. How far could the entrepreneur carry through the demands put by Sauckel and by his carrying through of arrangements, and so forth, with the workers?
A. The decrees issued by Sauckel are not without objection but the entrepreneur did not always find it possible to carry through the decrees and directives given out by Sauckel and for the reasons which were beyond their power. Because of the bombing attacks, it brought about difficulties of transport and transportation or the destroyed shelters, places to live. It is not possible to tell the entrepreneur under the circumstances which applied after the summer of 1944 and make him responsible for the observing of these decrees. These were times of crises and it is a matter with which the Reich authorities would have to concern themselves and to determine just how far possibilities would exist to carry through these decrees and it is impossible to give responsibility to the small entrepreneur.
Q. How far was the entrepreneur subordinate or responsible to your ministry in thisregard?
A. In the framework of the economy which industry enjoyed, the entrepreneurs of armament had received a para-state function by me. This, of course, applied only to technical problems, technical tasks.
Q. Were there any industries which were not permitted to be inspected by the Gauleiters?
A. There were some industries which concerned themselves with secret matters but the entrepreneur was informed and he could report to the Gauleiter on these matters.
Q. Did you approve the punishment of people who could not work?
A. Yes, I considered it quite correct that workers who violated labor discipline should be punished but I did not demand supplementary directives or measures in this regard. As a matter of principle, I represented the view that a satisfactory work output on the part of fourteen million workers could be brought about in the long run only through the good will and good faith of the worker himself. This is a bit of experience which applies generally, which causes every employer in the world to do everything possible to have his workers satisfied.
Q. Regarding the efforts made by Sauckel, did you support them so that the social conditions of the workers would be improved and if so, why did you?
A. Naturally, I supported them even though I did not have any jurisdiction along that line and the same reasons which I have just mentioned applied, for our experience showed that labor which is satisfied has much less loss in the line of material which was quite important, considering our deficiency of raw material. It is quite obvious that better quality which is produced through a satisfied labor coprs is of special significance especially in time of war.
Q. In the records of your discussions with Hitler, there are various statements made by Hitler dealing with the treatment of living conditions of foreign workers. Were you responsible for that?
A. Yes.
DR. FLAECHSNER: In this connection, I should like to submit three pieces of evidence -- first of all, document Speer No. 11. Mr. President, this is found on page ten of the English text, pace seven of the French text. In this document, Speer's request, in March of 1942, it was put down and I quote: "that the Russians were to receive sufficient food and that civilian Russians were not to be put behind barbed wire and were not to be treated as prisoners of war;" and as my next piece of evidence which will be Exhibit No. 4, I would like to submit Speer document No. 13. In May 1943, according to this document, Hitler determined, at the suggestion of Speer, that the German as well as Russian minors would receive additional rations and it is said there that the Russian prisoners of war are to receive additional rations such as tobacco and similar items and they are to be allotted them for special performance.
The next piece of evidence is Speer Exhibit No. 5 and it is document No. 9. Mr. President, this is found on page 12 of the English text and page 9 of the German text. According to this document, in Italian production plants, the feeding is to be put at about the level of German food rations and in this connection, it is important that Speer at the same time had it put in writing that the families of these workers receive equivalent care as well. I had other documents of this type at my disposal but in order to save the time of the translation department, I did not include them in my document book. BY DR. FLAECHSNER:
Q. Mr. Speer, to whom did the bonuses of the armament industry go, to whom were they given and what did they consist of?
A. We gave out many millions of bonuses to armament plants. They contained additional food, chocolate, cigarettes, and so forth, and these bonuses were allotted up and above the regular ration and they were given up and beyond the additional rations which were given to people who worked longer hours and who did heavy work. In the industries, these bonuses went to those workers including the foreign workers and prisoners of war and the workers from concentration camps.
from concentration camps, once more when I quote a document later.
In what form did your ministry put its demands to the industries? in the manner of production schedules. These schedules were made into demands according to workers and material at hand.
Q Could a tremendous increase in working hours, and if so, how? the month, the period of time should be equitable. Through the bombing attacks, stoppages resulted as far as supplies and the various parts and raw materials were concerned, and therefore the number of hours in industry varied from eight to twelve a day. The average, according to our statistics, might have been 60 hours to 64 hours a week. received their workers from concentration camps? industry. For the workers from concentration camps were on the whole only a part of the workers employed, and these workers were not called upon to do any more work than any of the other workers.
Q How is that shown? concentration camps work and be kept in a special part of the factory. The supervisors consisted of German foremen. The working hours, for production reasons had to be suitable with relation to the hours of work for the whole of industry, for in one industry you can work only at a certain rate. is seen unequivocally and unambiguously that the workers from concentration camps in army and naval armament and in the air armament branch worked on an average 60 hours per week. Mr. Speer, why in the case of industries were the so-called work camps established? saved, and so in this way that the workers could arrive at work in good condition, and thus ensure our adequate output.
including the workers from concentration camps, would not have been received by these men if they had come directly from Reich concentration camps; for then this additional food bonus would have been used up in the concentration camp. In this way, this part of the workers who came from concentration camps received the additional food bonuses which were granted to industry, such as cigarettes, or food allotments. And so concentration camp workers received the full benefit of these bonuses. concentration camps had advantages if they worked in factories?
A Yes. My co-workers called my attention to this fact, and when I inspected the industries, I heard of that as well. Of course, a wrong impression should not be created about the number of concentration camp inmates who worked in German industry. In toto, one per cant of the entire labor personnel came from concentration camps. inmates? concentration camps, who, however, looked well fed.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Concerning the report which Mr. Speer made about concentration camps and the treatment which the inmates received in factories, I refer to a special confidential letter of the Department Chief Schieber, dated the 7th of May, 1944. This is found Speer Document 44, which is Speer Exhibit No. 6, which I should like to submit.
Mr. President, I am sorry, this will be found in Document 2 of my document book, which I do not have at this time. But it would be a pity if I were not to discuss it at this time, for it seems to fib into this pattern. Therefore, I should like to quote briefly from it.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Flaechsner, the Tribunal thinks it would be much more helpful to them to have the document before them. it will not be ready before tomorrow afternoon.
DR. FLAECHSNER: I see. Mr. President, I believe that I did everything possible at the time to see that the document was put at the disposal of the translation department in good time. The difficulty must have arisen from the fact that the interrogatories did not come back in time. I assume that that is what happened.
The quotation from this document is not long, Mr. President. I believe I might as well quote from it now. Or do you wish that I dispense with it?
THE PRESIDENT: No; go on, if it is more convenient to you. I do not mind. You may go on.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Thank you very much.
The Department Chief Schieber writes to his Minister:
"Considering the care which they received from our factory managers, in spite of all the difficulties, and considering the general decent and humane treatment which foreign and concentration camp laborers received, the Jewish women in concentration camps, as well as all others worked very efficiently, and did everything in order not to be sent back to the camp.
"These facts really demand that we bring more concentration camp inmates into armament industries. " It further states a few pages down:
"I have discussed this matter with the plenipotentiary of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl and Sturmbannfuehrer Maurer, and pointed out that if concentration camp laborers are being divided, it would be possible to exploit their work and at the same time give them better nourishment and reasonable care."
THE PRESIDENT: You need not make such long pauses as you are making.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Aside from that, Maurer is pointing out especially that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl said that the food situation of concentration camp inmates is being improved constantly and because of special bonuses and through constant medical attention he has seen marked increase in weight and, therefore, better work achievement.
In another document, No. 46, we see that the using of concentration camp workers is recommended in armament industries in that they bring advantages to concentration camp workers and that concentration camp inmates arc glad to work in industries. on Page 11 of the document book. Your Honor, it is page 14 in the English text. This document shows that already in the year 1937 the using of inmates of concentration camps was taking place in work shops and that this work in work shops was a preferred work. BY DR. FLAECHSNER:
Q. Dr. Speer, what do you know about the working conditions in subterranean factories ?
A. In subterranean factories the most modern equipment had been housed and the most modern weapons. Since we did not have many of these subterranean works we had to house these modern arrangements first of all there. These things required certain conditions of work. First of all, air which was dry and free from dust, good lighting facilities, and so forth, so that the conditions which applied to a subterranean works would apply to those in a night shift in a regular industry. I should like to add that contrary to the impression which has been created here, these subterranean factories, almost without exception, were staffed with German workers, because we had a special interest in having these modern installations manned by the best workers which were at our disposal.
Q. Can you tell us about what was the number of these ?
A. We had 300,000 cubic meters at our disposal at the end of the war and we had planned for 3,000,000 cubic meters.
Q. Mr. Speer, in the year 1943, you visited the concentration camp at Mauthausen ?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you visit it ?
A. I learned, when I inspected industries at Linz, that along the Danube, near the camp at Mauthausen, there was a large harbor installation and railroad installations which were put up so that the stone coming from the quarry at Mauthausen was to be transported to the Danube. This was a peacetime problem which I could not tolerate at all, for it was against all the decrees and directives which I had issued. I told them about my visit in advance and I wanted to see whether these buildings were an actual fact. I wanted to see to it that if that had been started it would be stopped, so that order could be established in this administrative sphere of the SS. I stated on that occasion that it would be more correct to have these workers used in war, not for peace buildings and so forth but rather to have the work in a steel plant at Linz.
Q. Will you describe the visit to the camp ?
A. My visit ostensibly followed the program as described by the witness Blaha. I saw the kitchens, the laundry, the barracks and living quarters. These barracks were put up of rather massive stone and were models of modern equipment. Since my visit had been learned of only a little bit in advance, preparations could have been made before my visit. Nevertheless, on sight, the small part of the camp which I saw made a model impression when it came to cleanliness. However, I did not see any of the workers, any of the camp inmates, since at that time they were all engaged in work. The entire inspection lasted perhaps forty-five minutes, since I had very little time at my disposal for a matter of that kind and it was quite against me spiritually to even enter a camp where these prisoners were being kept.
Q. The main purpose of your visit was to have the work stopped in those things which you did not consider were contributing to war ?
A. Yes.
Q. Upon your visit, could you learn about the working conditions that applied in this camp ?
A. No, I couldn't do that since no workers were to be seen in the camp and the harbor installations were so far from the street that I couldn't see the men who were working there.
THE PRESIDENT: The translation that came through to me was that it was against him spiritually to enter such places. Was that correct ? Well what did you say ?
DR. FLAECHSNER: I asked him whether, on the occasion of this visit, he could see the working conditions which applied, whether he could have seen them. That was my question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, did you say anything about "spiritually" ?
THE WITNESS: No. BY DR. FLAECHSNER:
Q. Did you learn, on your visit at Mauthausen or on another occasion about the cruelties and atrocities which took place at this concentration camp and at other concentration camps ?
A. No.
Q. Now, I should like to conclude my questions on the utilization of workers by asking you, did you have any interest in the fact that a healthy labor supply would be at your disposal ?
A. Yes, naturally. I had the utmost interest along this line even though I was not competent. Beginning in 1942, in armament, we had the assembly line system, and in this system there was a tremendously large percentage of skilled workers. Because of military service, these skilled laborers had become especially important, so that any loss of a worker or the illness of a worker meant a tremendous loss for me as well. training after this period for six months, the loss is a large one. Since only after half a year you can expect quality work to be done by a worker, it can be seen clearly that the care and the welfare of skilled workers in industry was of special interest to us.
Q. The prosecution holds the point of view of the extermination of worker by work. Could a change, if it had taken place through destruction by work , could that be tolerated by an industry ?
A. No. A change in the workers, in the way in which it was described here, is completely untenable for any industry. It is completely out of the question that, in any German industry, any anihilation took place without me hearing about it. I never heard anything like that.
Q. Mr. Speer, the prosecution asserts that you applied means of terror and brutality so that the achievement of compulsory workers would be increased to
A. No.
Q. Just a moment. I haven't finished. And the prosecution is of the opinion that you used SS and police against recalcitrant workers. Did you actually threaten to use such methods ?
A. No, not in that form, for that was against my interests. There were efforts in Germany to bring about increased productivity through certain compulsory measures. However, these efforts were not endorsed by me. It is quite out of the question that 14,000,000 workers can be made to produce satisfactory work through threatening of terror means, as the prosecution says.
DR. FLAECHSNER: In this connections please refer to page 7 of the English text, page 4 of the French and Russian text. I should like to quote from Document Speer No. 43. It says there:
"I do not believe that the second system which might be applied in our economy -- the system of compulsion by Industrial Commissioners, or extensive proceedings and punishment when output is insufficient, can lead to success."
Now, Mr. President I have concluded a certain pattern and chapter.
THE PRESIDENT: The court will adjourn.
( The Tribunal adjourned until 20 June 1946 at 1000 hours ).
THE PRESIDENT: I have an anouncement to make. In the first place, supplementary witnesses will be heard at the end of the case for the Defendants. Secondly, interrogatories and other documents received by that time must be offered in evidence then. Thirdly, interrogatories and other documents allowed before the end of the evidence but received at a later date will be received and considered by the Tribunal up to the end of the trial. That is all. BY DR. FLAECHSNER: to the question of how labor was introduced into industry; that is, the special demands put.
Mr. Speer. in your testimony of the 18th of October, 1945, you stated, first of all, that you demanded new laborers from Sauckel and you demanded them rather explicitly and, secondly, that you know that among these laborers there would be foreigners; thirdly, that you had known that some of these foreign workers were working in Germany against their will. Will you please comment on this statement?
A This voluntary statement is quite correct. During the war I was very grateful to Sauckel for all laborers and workers which he put at my disposal, and many a time I held him responsible for the fact that through a lack or deficiency of workers achievements were not met. I always emphasized the merits which accrued to him because of his activity, merits toward armament.
Q Now, in your testimony of the 18th of October, '45, and now again, you mention workers. Do you mean the total concept of workers, that is German workers, foreigners from occupied countries, and foreigners from friendly or annexed states, and prisoners of war?
A Yes. Beginning with the middle of 1943, I had differences with Sauckel regarding the policy of production and about the lack of reserves of German labor which was at my disposal; but that has nothing whatever to do with my general attitude toward Sauckel's work.