SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it is Page 6 of Document Book 11; the document is 812 PS. It starts on Page 6 and the passage which I am going to refer to is on Page 8. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q Have you got the passage that begins: "Thus the first state of battle commenced which ended with the July rising of 1934. The decision for the July rising was right, the execution of it was faulty. The result was complete destruction of the organization; the loss of entire groups of fighters through imprisonment or flight into the 'Alt-Reich'; and with regard to the political relationship of Germany to Austria, a formal acknowledgement of the existence of the Austrian State by the German government. With the telgram to Papen, instructing him to reinstitute normal relationships between the two states, the Fuehrer had liquidated the first stage of the battle; and a now method of political penetration was to begin." Would you agree that that is a correct description of your work, "a new method of political penetration"?
A No, Sir David. That is a very mistaken description of my activity.
Q Well, if you don't agree with Dr. Reiner, tell me-you know the witness; you must know very well the witness, Dr. Paul Schmidt. You know him?
Q Very well. Now I think you will agree with me that he is one of the personalities against whom nobody had said a word during this trial. Do you agree? I haven't heard a word of criticism of Paul Schmidt. Don't you agree with me? the Foreign Minister Schmidt?
Q. Paul Schmidt, the interpreter. not? Do you say that he is not a trustworthy person?
AAs to the human qualities of Mr. Schmidt, I have no objections, but I have a great deal of objection to the fact that Mr. Schmidt, in an affidavit, permits himself to judge my diplomatic activity in Austria. You will find Dr. Paul Schmidt's affidavit on Page 41 of Document Book 11-A; that is Page 37 of the German Document Book, Document 3308 PS. Now just listen to Dr. Paul Schmidt's view, Paragraph 8: "Plans for annexation of Austria were a part of the Nazi program from the beginning. Italian opposition after the murder of Dollfuss temporarily forced a more careful approach to this problem, but the application of sanctions against Italy by the League, plus the rapid increase of German military strength, made safer the resumption of the Austrian program. When Goering visited Rome early in 1937, he declared that union of Austria and Germany was inevitable and could be expected sooner or later. Mussolini, hearing these words in German, remained silent, and protested only mildly when I translated them into French. The consummation of the Anschluss was essentially a party matter, in which von Papen's role was to preserve smooth diplomatic relations on the surface while the Party used more devious ways of preparing conditions for the expected move." a mistake and it is a speech of Hitler's on the 18th of February to which, unfortunately, the translator has put your name. I am not relying on that. But what I do want to know whether you agree with is that it was your role" to preserve smooth diplomatic relations on the surface while the Party used more devious ways--". Do you agree with that as a correct description of your program, your mission in Austria? case. My task in Austria I explained very clearly to the Tribunal.
continuation of the policy of the growing together of the two states in an evolutionary way. And now may I say a few words more concerning this affidavit of Mr. Schmidt? At the time when the witness sat here in this chair we noted that this affidavit was placed before him when he was in the hospital after a severe illness, and this document was given him for his signature -it. We have heard all about it and Dr. Schmidt has been cross examined and I think you may take it that the Tribunal know every thing about the circumstances of the affidavit. If you have anything to comment on the contents of it, I am sure the Tribunal would willingly let you, but you need not comment on the circumstances. That is all before the Tribunal.
A Very well. I will speak about the contents. I will state that Minister Schmidt, who later played an influential role with von Ribbentrop, in the years which are under discussion here had a completely subordinate position in the foreign Office which did not make it possible for him to have any complete insight into conditions in Austria and into my policy and my reports. von Neurath.
Q Well, we won't argue that any further. The Tribunal has the whole of Dr. Schmidt's record before them and the affidavit. Now you said you told the Tribunal about your conception of your mission in Austria. If that was your conception of your mission in Austria. If that was your conception, why was it necessary for you to get hold of the position of the explosive chambers in Austrian strategic roads? That was rather going back to the development of the "top hat" idea to which you objected so strongly, wasn't it? --Well, if you don't remember, let me remind you. It is Document D 689, Page 101.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The Tribunal will find the passage actually on Page 102, and it is 90 and 91 in the German version of Document Book 11 A, becoming GB 504.
BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: as you know, is a road of some strategic importance going from Salzburg to Corinthia. Do you remember that, after your description about the people being in Salzburg and singing everything except the Horst-Wessel song, and then the German drivers competing, and in the third and next paragraph you say: "The building of this road is without doubt a first class work of culture, in which Reich German constructional firms took the main and decisiv part. The Chief engineer of the Reich German firm which built the tunnel at the highest point offered to inform me of the position of the explosives chambers in this tunnel. I sent him to the military attache." That was your combining culture and showing the excellence of German road construction with obtaining the position of the explosives of the tunnel at the important strate gic portion of the road. Why did you consider that of sufficien importance to send it to Hitler with three copies to the Foreign Office? and the inauguration of this road.
Q I don't really want that. The Tribunal can get that. What I am asking you is why you were sending to Hitler the fact that the Reich German engineer was disclosing to you the explosiv chambers on the important part of this road where this road could be blocked? Why were you sending that to Hitler? That is what I want you to tell the Tribunal. proached me and told me, there and there, this tunnel could be blown up. You know that at that time we had very tense relations with Italy and that Italy had mobilized on the Brenner border, an for that reason it seemed of interest to me that this now connection between Italy and Germany could be broken at any given time. Moreover, I referred the matter to my military attache because it did not interest me personally.
Q. No, you had then moved out of the calss of doing that sort of thing yourself. You were the head of the mission and it was a matter for the military attache. Kultur, as showing the road making, at the same time you were getting the strategic information which you could pass on to your government, undermining the Austrian Government's strategic plans to use the road?
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant said, did he not, that it was a road which joined Germany to Italy?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, my Lord. The road actually goes from Salzburg, which is practically on the German border, to Corinthia in South Austria, so it was a new highway, taking traffic north and wouth in Austria.
THE PRESIDENT: Did it actually connect Germany with Italy, or did it connect Austria with Italy?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Austria. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q. Well, let's take something else in which you were interested. You were also reporting as to where the Austrian supply of munitions and manufacture of munitions were going to be situated, were you not?
A. I do not recall.
Q. All right, if you don't recall it, look at it yourself. It is Document D-694. You will find it a few pages on. book. It will become GB-505. Its date is the 26th of November 1935. It is page 110 and the passage that I am going to read is page 111. version. You are dealing with the influence of Herr Mandel, whose Jewish extraction you referred to, and they you go on to Price Starhemberg. It reads "After the manufacture of munitions for Italy had to be stopped in Hirtenberg because of Italian protests, he, Mandel, had loaded the entire factory on to the railway, in order to continue work in Italy."
Then, note the next words in brackets:
"Incidentally, an interesting situation for Austria's supply of munitions should report on the movements in the Austrian munitions manufacture?
A. No, that was not my task proper, but this report shows, Sir David, that I had a talk with the Polish Minister Gavronski who told me that this single munitions factory which existed in Austria was being moved to Italy, and I wrote that that was a remarkable circumstance, that a country was to get its munitions supplies from a foreign country. You must admit that that is a peculiar situation that one can write that in a report.
Q. That is your explanation. I won't waste time on it.
THE PRESIDENT: You gave us the date, but where does it come from?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it came from Document D-694. That is a report of the defendant to Hitler, made on the 26th of November 1935. It is page 110 in Document Book 11A.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we have got that, but the date isn't on it.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: No, my Lord, that is why I gave you the date.
THE PRESIDENT: How did you pet the date?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I looked it up in the original. Major Barrington did, that is. Your Lordship will see the date was left off. It came between one on the 11th of November and one in January.
THE PRESIDENT: Miscopied?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q. Now, I want to pass -- and again I want to deal with it very quickly-to your own personal experiences in Austria. had been there about a year -- do your remember? I don't know because you probably went every year.
The point that I want to remind you of is this. Do you remember when you went there that 500 National Socialists greeted you with music and made such a demonstration that some other guests in the hotel wanted to telephone or telegraph to the Federal Chancellery to say that the German Ambassador had casued a great Nazi demonstration?
Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, the reference to that is at page 102, Document B-689, which I have already referred to, page 102 of Document Book 11 A. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q. Well now, let me take another example. Do you remember the meeting of the Comrades of the First World War at Wells?
A. Yes.
Q. That was, if my recollection is right, in 1937, was it not?
A. Quite right, yes.
Q. And all the preparations had been made for a non-political meeting, reunion, of the Austrian regiments and old comrades from the German regiments, and after the meeting they were to have a sort of dinner or lunch together, and the evening was to finish in jollity and song. That was the program, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. That meeting was addressed by General Glaise Horstenau and yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. General Glaise Horstenau -- without any disrespect to him -- I think you will agree made a not very powerful speech. That was your impression, wasn't it, a not very powerful speech? Interesting but not dynamic? Believe me, I am not being offensive to the general. I am merely trying to get the point.
A. No.
Q. You made a speech which lasted for quite a short time, didn't you. Do you remember?
A. Yes.
Q. After your speech, there was beating and shooting through the streets of wells, wasn't there? There was a riot there, wasn't there?
A. Yes. May I tell you how that happened?
Q. Well, if you can. I wanted to establish the fact. You are perfectly entitled now to give your explanation.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there a document on this?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: There is no document on this.
A. A meeting had been arranged in Wells, a meeting of organizations of the old German army from the First World War, the so-called Warrior's Society, Kriege*---*erein, and the veterans' associations of Austria. It was absolutely legal and in the spirit of our joint policy that the mutual experiences from First World War should be renewed between these formations. of the Austrian Government, was to have a completely non-political character, the following resulted: When I arrived, the place where this meeting of veterans' associations took place, was surrounded by about 5,000 to 10,000 people. The Austrian Government, to receive its German guests, brought an honor guard company of the army, and when the Austrian band played the Austrian national anthem on my arrival, these 10,000 people who surrounded the place sang the German national anthem, for the melody is the same. out that these thousands of people kept interrupting me. Of course, I immediately realized that the Austrian National Socialist planned a big political demonstration here, and for that reason I broke off my speech, and shortly afterwards I left the place and left Wells. and the Austrian police wanted to proceed against the thousands of persons who were demonstrating, very unfortunate incidents occurrred.
Q. Now, if that is your explanation, I have put the facts of the inciden your activities in Austria. remember the phrase "the Trojan horse technique" being referred to with regard to Austria?
A. Yes. Seyss-Inquart himself did not want to lead the Trojan horse.
Q. Yes, but before that, you know, you had referred to the Trojan horse technique.
My Lord, it is Document Book 11A page 133. The passage I am referring to is from page 134. The document is D-706, which will become GB-506. It is page 163, Sergeant Major.
Q. That is your report on 21 August, 1936, where you quote an instruction of the Prague Secret Service to the Vienna branch, which says:
"It has unfortunately to be noted that the wild National Socialist excesses of Jul y 29 of this year have not had the result we expected. Austria's reapproachment to the Third Reich in the field of foreign politics is making further progress, as well as the process of the cultural collaboration of the two sister nations. One can also assume from your most recent reports that the Trojan Horse of National Socialism is bringing ever greater confusion into the ranks of the Fatherland Front and particularly into the ranks of the Heimatsschutz (Hone Guard). Opposition to the normalization of German-Austrian relations which is extremely dangerous to Austrian independence, appears neverthless to be relatively very great; it obviously only lacks good organization". going on, the superficial normalization of relations and the Trojan Horse moevment working inside the country?
A. Sir Davis, that is the opinion of the Czech Secret Service and perhaps of the Czech government.
Q. May I remind you, defendant, tha it is the opinion quoted by you in your report to the Fuehrer and not contradicted. There is not a word in your report suggesting that it is not the truth. In fact you say you introduce it -"lastly to throw light on the present position in Austria". Fuehrer, so you cannot, I suggest, write it off by saying it is merely a Czech report.
A. Yes. Let me point out that this report of of the 21 August 1936. That is one month after the conclusion of our July agreement, of which you asserted it was a treacherous maneuver and of which we and the Austrian Foreign Minister thought it was a very seriously intended agreement. We are not on a completely different basis with Austria and for that reason I quoted this peculiar Czech report as an interesting document as to how, in spite of our efforts for normalization, the Czechs regard matters in Austria.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you leaving that document?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I was, my Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: What about the last paragraph?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If your Lordship pleases, I will certainly deal with that.
THE PRESIDENT: Page 134.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If your Lordship pleases. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q. It goes on to say:
"It appears hopeless and also impractical to us to strive to influence Austrian legitimism or the Heimwer movement. There are, on the one hadn, comparitively strong elements in Austrian Catholicism who could, with certain reservations, be called democratic. These elements, which are gradually grouping themselves round the Freiheitsbund (Freedom Union) and which are inclined basically to work for an agreement with the Social Democrats, represent, in our opinion, that group which would under certain circumstances, be inclined to bring about a revolution in internal politics in Austria."
Did you put that forward as also representing your view?
A. Sir David, I explained very carefully to the Court yesterday the aims and the character of the Freiheitsbund and the Court knows from the report that the Czech government endeavoured to exert political influence on this Freiheitsbund. That is quite clear in thie connection. This is all the Czech report.
Q. Then you were putting it forward, were you not, as your view to Hitler that, to speak loosely, the Catholic left might be used as a means of approach by you. That is really what you are saying.
A. But, Sir David, you want to accuse me of submitting a Czech report to Hitler and to identify my views with this report.
Q. Yes, that is what I am accusing you of. If you write to the head of the state, "to throw light on the present position in Austria, I append an extract from a report --'' then what I am suggesting is that that means this report accurately represents the position, as I see it.
That is what I am putting to you.
A. No, another report which you also submitted to the Court shows that I asked Hitler to work against these efforts of the Czech government to exert influence on the Freitheitsbund.
Q. Defendant, you asked Hitler to give one hundred thousand Reichsmarks to the Freitheits bund. Tha is exactly what you are following out in what you have suggested here, that they might be a body who would be a useful point d'appin for you in order to gain an influence with mother section of Austrian opinion. I am suggesting to you the two things are quite consistent. You tell Hitler that they are useful.
A. Yes.
Q. And you support them with one hundred thousand Reichsmarks. That is what I am putting to you.
A. Yes.
Q. That you were all the time burrowing under one section of Austrian opinion after another in order to work towards the suppression of the freedom of Austria. That is what I am putting to you. I do not think there is any doubt about it.
A. Sir David, that this report shows anything clearly it is the fact that, aside from the National Socialists in Austria there were other groups. There were the Christian Union and the Freiheitsbund who were for the union of the two countries and worked for it politically, and you cannot accuse me as a diplomat, who wants to bring about such an aim in an evolutionary way, if I surest that we assure the cooperation of these groups.
Q. There was not anything very evolutionary about the Trojan Horse, was there? However, that may be comment. Let us go on to another point.
Did you know Baron Gudemus?
A. No, I did not know him.
Q. You know that he was the closest confidant of the Archduke Otto. Do you remember?
A. Yes, that is shown in my report.
Q. Yes. Well now, let us just look and see what Baron Gudemus had to say.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Your Lordship will find that on page 39 and it is 72 to 75 of the German version, document 387 which will become GB 507. It is paragraph 2 (b) and it appears on page 74, defendant.
"Baron Gudemus, the closes confidant of the Archduke Otto writes--'' There is a mistake there, my Lord.
The "me" should be "one".
"--one of my acquaintances on the 30 of March.
'..I took many a cheerful impression back with me from Austria about the progress of our movement, but I cannot deny that in some respects the policy of our government worries me greatly. Of what use is it that the ringleaders of February and July 1934, insofar as they got caught, are being sentences, whilst the government is too weak, too slovenly or intentionally too tolerant, to prevent brown and rod propaganda being carried on in the cinema, in the press and on the radio and mainly by state officials or organs of the Fatherland Front supported and paid by the financial and other means which are pouring in in plenty from Germany. What is that learned idealist Schuschnigg actually doing? Does he not Notice that Papen and the other brown agents in his own country continually spit into the hand he so consistently offers them? He must not imagine that he can thus maintain and save Austria, whilst Hitler rules in a Germany which is painted brown on the inside and the outside. The methods ever there have, it is true, become more clever and more careful--" this is about seven months after your arrive "--but this makes them all the more danger us.
Terrible also are the continuous diferrences between Schuschnigg and Stahremburg--" and so on. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q. Now, is it not correct, defendant, that anyone, that everyone, even a visiting manoarchist agent, knew that these activities were going on with you on the top and the Austrian National Socialist Party working underneath? comment on that.
"The difficulties of the internal Austrian situation could hardly be described more clearly than in this letter."
Why did you not say to Hitler, if it was a fact "--Baron Gudemus is talking nonsense. I am carrying out a perfectly fours quare moral assignment, to normalize Austrian relations." Why did you not deny it, if it was not true?
complete franknessI passed on allthese reports which I received to Hitler, even though it spoke of the adherents of the Hapsburg Restoration. were true; you adopted them and passed them on to Hitler because they were true reports; that that was a true picture of the situation. That is what I am suggesting to you. You just tell the Tribunal, were they true or were they not? If they were not true, why did you pass them on without saying they were not true? That is what I am asking you . speaks of internal conditions in Austria, and speaks of the existing difference between Schuschnigg and Starhemberg, the competition of their guards, and the remaining underground republican influences still existing.
Q Yes, that is three lines out of twenty. There is a lot more before you come to that part. That is what I am asking you about; the other seventeen lines of that report. the internal weaknesses of the Austrian government which I am reporting on. If you want to say that I should have explained to Hitler that I was no Brown agent, on 26th July we established very clearly under what conditions I had to carry out my work in Austria. I did not have to explain that to Hitler in a report. I sent this report merely for his information. your letter. It shows in another way how you were working. Paragraph 3:
" The film 'The Old and the Young King'" -- The Tribunal may not remember, but you correct my recollection. That is a film, if I remember right, dealing with Friederich -- the relations of Friederich Wilhelm I and Friederich the Great. Am I right?
Q "The film 'The Old and the Young King' was shown here for the first time a few days ago in the presence of Mr. Jannings."
"It provoked enthusiastic demonstrations. Particularly the scene where the king stresses the fact that 'French trash and Roman books do not mean anything to Prussia', led to vociferous demonstrations.
The police wanted to resort to a ban. Together with Mr. Jannings, we explained to then that, should this film be prohibited, we would resort to the complete exclusion of the whole Austrian film production from Germany. This worked. The film -- except for the above mentioned part which was expunged -- is being shown now and will be shown on the screen at Klagenfurt and Graz within the next few days. Yesterday I received Jannings together with a number of Tutors from the Burg Theater as my guests. He said he was very satisfied with his success, and we discussed in detail the plan of afilm of Bismarck for the production of which recommended Bemelburg to him as the writer of the script." be shown in Austria on the threat of excluding "Freulein Wessly" and "Maskerade", and the other Austrian films of that time from the German market; you were forcing your propaganda on the threat of excluding Austrian films; is that right?
A Yes, and I will tell you why. I must enlarge your historical knowledge of those things, Sir David. Friederich the Great, in relations between Germany and Austria, played a very important role. At that time we were trying in the relationship between our two countries to clear up the historical inaccuracies which had existed since the time of Friederich the Great For this purpose, the famous Austrian historian, Professor Schubeck, had written a big work, and the film which is mentioned here served the purpose of showing that we had a great mutual German history which belonged to both peoples. For the cultural rapprochement of the two countries, I insisted that this film should be shown, and this was done. to be shown, defendant, but what I am asking you is, why you pressed it against the wish of the Austrian authorities by throat of excluding Austrian film production from the German market? Why did you threaten the Austrian authoriti in that way? certain films; that they might be used for demonstrations, but after we had discussed this with the police and that certain parts should be eliminated from this film, they were quite read to admit the film, and of course, I also told them that if we did not reach an agreement, the consequences would be that Germany would not send any more films at all to Austria.
Q Well, again I put the point. Do you remember telling the Tribunal that you did not keep up contact with the NSDAP in Austria? Is that correct?
Q You did keep up contacts?
Q Close contacts?
Q Intimate contact? Were your contacts close?
Q Well, if they were not, will you just turn a page back. It is probably page 72 of your report. It is the some report.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it is page 93 of Your Lordship's book. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE:
Q You began that report by saying:
"I have first to report on the development of the local NSDAP:
"On 23rd March, a complete agreement was reached in Krems between Captain Leopold, (Retd.) and Generaldirektor Neubacher. In accordance therewith, Neubacher subordinated himself to Leopold in every way and recognized him as Fuehrer for Austria. As soon as Schattenfreh is released from the concentration camp, he is to become deputy Fuehrer, while Neubacher, as the closest confident of Leopold, will be consulted on all important questions." deputy, while:
"Major General Klupp, (Retd.) will be taken into consultation in strict confidence. Furthermore, Leopold expressed the desire the at long last, the continuous intrigues against him on the part of emigrees living in the Reich -of the type of Frauenfeld and his ilk -- be stopped." wasn't it?
A Yes, Sir David. May I call to your attention the fact that this report is dated 4 April 1935, at a time before the July agreement when my interest in those Party affairs can still be readily understood. of 1 September 1936, which is on page 33 of Document Book 11, page 26 of the German book. You remember this is the report which you referred to, and you said:
"As a guiding principle (Marschroute) I recommend on the tactical side continued, patient psychological treatment, with slowly intensified pressure directed at changing the regime."
of the Ministry of the Interior. I am not going to trouble about a statement like that, but just go on for a moment:
"The proposed conference on economic relations, taking place at the end of October, will be a very useful tool for the realisation of some of our projects In discussion with government officials us well as with leaders of the illegal party (Leopold and Schattenfreh) who conform completely with the agreement of July 11. I am trying to direct the next developments in such a manner to aim at corporative representation of the movement in the Fatherland Front." after the agreement, having discussions with the leaders of the illegal party, Leopold and Schattenfreh, so may we take it -- I don't want to spend time on it -- that throughout your time in Austria, you were in close and constant touch with the leaders of the Austrian National Socialist Party? justified by the July agreement. I have already explained that to the Court yesterday. In the July agreement Chancellor Schuschnigg promised that members of the national opposition would be called upon for cooperation. As a result, it was of course my duty to be interested in whether and to what extent the cooperation of such forces was actually sought after by Schuschnigg. That was the subject of this talk with the Fuehrer, and I might state expressly that my contact with the Austrian Party, after the July agreement, was only in this connection.
Q I see. Well, I am not going to go into that further. I have referred the Tribunal to two documents, and there are other references which I need not worry about.
I want you to come now to November 1937. Could you fix as carefully and as closely as you can the date of your meeting with the defendant Seyss-Inquart at Garmisch? out pre-arrangement -- at the Olympic Winter Games at Garmisch-Partenkirchen in January 1938.
Q January 1938. I just want to collate these dates. You had become very friendly with the Foreign minister Guido Schmidt, who gave evidence here, had you not?
Q Yes, you gave him the "du", although you were twenty years his senior; you had given him the "du" for sometime? You had been on intimate relations? Is that right?
A I don't think that 20 years is a standard for a friendship. I regarded Mr. Schmidt as an upright and very sensible diplomat and man. to be such terms with a Foreign Minister, especially one twenty years his junior ... not his contemporary -- on such terms that he used the familiar "du" to him Won't you agree with me that it is a quite unusual form of intimacy between an ambassador and a foreign minister? that in Austria almost all the people say "du" to each other, and to clear up this incident, may I add the following. Schmidt, of whom I am very fond, "Dear friend, we have worked together so much, now we can say "du" to each other."
Q Now, what I am interested in is this: It was in November 1937 that you and Dr. Guido Schmidt first began to discuss the question of Herr von Schuschnigg meeting Hitler, was it not? Schuschnigg himself at that time.
Q Just a moment; will you answer my question? You discussed with Schmidt -- you heard Dr. Schmidt give his evidence that the defendant Goering had told him with great frankness, as the defendant Goering said he told everybody else and has told this Court, that he was out for the union of Germany and Austria by any means and at all costs. You heard Dr. Schmidt say that Goering had told him that that was his view, and I say, in all fairness, it is perfectly consistent. It is the view he has expressed here and apparently to a lot of other people. Do you remember Dr. Schmidt said that? You can take that from me.