Q. After this meeting which occurred on the 4th of January, 1944 -that is, on the 5th of January, 1944 -- you sent a letter to Lammers, in which you mentioned the necessity of issuing a special order as a result of this meeting so that all aid should be given you by the following agencies -- and I will enumerate them: The Reichsfuehrer SS, the Minister of the Interior, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Fieldmarshal Keitel, the Minister for the Occupied Territories in the East, Rosenberg, the Governer General, Reich Commissars, and others. Do you remember this letter?
A. I remember that letter, but I want you to put it before me because I can't remember the details contained therein.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of that document, General?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: That is number 1292-PS, My Lord. It is at page 6 in the Russian text. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. Have you found the place?
A. Yes. Is it the last page?
Q. Yes. That means you considered that all these agencies were to participate in this or that way in the carrying out of measures for the mobilization and utilization of man power. Is that correct?
A That is correct. And may I please make the following statement in that connection? It is obvious that I myself could not do things without informing high authorities of the Reich. It is true that I was attempting to work correctly and that I was working wisely in the Reich, and interfering with other spheres of administration.
Q But I would like to ascertain this. The carrying out of these criminal measures by the Hitler government was accomplished withthe add of the entire state mechanism of Nazi Germany and the government agencies of the Reich; is that correct?
A I object to the word "criminal" in that way; and in the re-examination I want my defense counsel to examine me on that point.
Q It is not a question of the question. But is it correct? or not?
A I must be allowed to explain myself. Regarding the recruiting of workers and their signing up for German construction, the person who was responsible for this, the chief of the commissioner's office or of the District administration, would act. I must emphasize that I could not issue laws, and I was not allowed to do so. I could not interfere with the administration of the State. That was true with every country in the world.
Q Yes. But you were obliged to coordinate all the work of these state agencies. That is the task that was assigned to you. jurisdiction to assist the workers of the state.
Q No; that is not quite so. I did not want to take up this question. But I see that I must return to it and take it up again, for you seem to minimize your part in this action.
A But I must reply to the word "minimize". The distribution of workers in the Reich was my job. It was my main task, and it concerned 30,000,000 people. So it is not a question of minimizing. I did my best to direct these matters in an orderly manner; and it was done. Such were my duties. I must not try to minimize anything.
It was my task, my duty, and my mission.
Q We need not "polemize" on this subject. we will return to the question of government.
A I must apologize to you if you misunderstood me. I am not entitled to polemic, but I am asking that I may present my views regarding this task, because that was the most personal task I had. This document is No. 265. I will read a few excerpts from it, and this will show what your powers were.
THE PRESIDENT: what is the number of it?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: It is U.S.S.R. 365.
THE PRESIDENT: Has it get a PS number?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: No, This is a Soviet exhibit. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q Please read Part 4. It says, The general plenipotentiary for the utilization of manpower has the following powers for the solution of tasks assigned to him: the power which has been assigned to him by the Fuehrer to issue orders to the higher Reich agencies, to the party and organizations dependent on the party, to the Reichfuehrers, to the governors, to the military leaders, and the heals of the administrative agencies.
That is what we read in part 4 of this order. I believe, therefore, that you were entrusted as general plenipetentiary for the utilization of manpower with extraordinary powers. Is that correct?
A That is correct. And I want to state in connection with this point that that was limited to my particular sphere. A construction directive of a party character had to be put before me first. And I want to draw your attention to the fact that my officials in the department were limited in their action even further. A witness will make a statement in that connection. and each of them in his own sphere, participated in the carrying out of measures relating to the deportation of slave labor from occupied territories? Please enumerate them.
A (No response) direct leader?
not be conscious of the fact that on the basis of proper recruiting, and decrees, there could be the taking away of population. Measures regarding detail, I should not -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) The question was, Did the defendant Goering participate with you in the bringing in of foreign workers, into Germany? Youdo not seem to me to be answering it at all.
THE WITNESS: In this question regarding the introduction of foreign workers I was directly under the Reichsmarshal of the GermanReich.
THE PRESIDENT: Then why don't you say so? BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
criminal measures?
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, when you want to ask a question of that sort, I think it would be much better that you should not allege the fact that it is a crime. If you Want to knew whether the defendant Goering took part with this defendant in the work that he was doing, you can refer to that without calling it a crime; and then he perhaps will answer you more easily.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Yes, My Lord. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: carrying out of these measures on the diplomatic line, and did he sanction the violation of international treaties and conventions, referring to the violation -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) There again, these defendants are saying that there was no violation of international law; so the question I should put to him is, Did von Ribbentrop participate with him in these measures?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I want to know now what part Ribbentrop played in the utilization and the procurement of manpower; and I would like the defendant Sauckel to answer that question.
THE WITNESS: The part played by defendant Ribbentrop was that he had conferences with foreign statesmen, or foreign authorities in the occupied territories, and in neutral and allied countries abroad, which he arranged. And he attached considerable importance to the condition that they should be carried out correctly and under the best possible conditions for the foreign workers which were negotiated for. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: concerning the utilization of prisoners of war by German industries do with these measures? one single occasion during a meeting the date of which I cannot remember.
It took place in our chancellery. I think it was in 1944. Minister Lammers was present. Apart from that I had no conferences of any kind with Kaltenbrunner, and I made no arrangements with him regarding the employment of workers. the mobilization of manpower? not a task of the police. And once again I shall ask my defense counsel to consider my instructions which are available, and then he should submit them to the Tribunal, because they show how the tasks were divided between the police and my department. They show it clearly and irrefutably. these measures, or did it not? sans made the carrying out of my task impossible. In White Ruthenia many Burgemeisters were murdered by partisans. Documents will show that.
Q But even in normal circumstances, wasn't the mobilization carried out with the aid of the police?
A I shall tell you most directly. In occupied territories in Europe, there were some 1,500 districts. In these districts, there were 1,700 deaprtments. They were inhabited partly by German civil servants. Apart from that, these departments in the Soviet zone alone had about 1,000 Russian workers who had already worked in Germany, and they had the job of recruiting others. Considering that this service department was working among about 40,000 to 50,000 inhabitants, and assuming that they approached five people a day and examined them, that alone would bring you 200,000,000 men in one year. It is quite clearly a matter of administration. It was a question of having it ordered by me and authorized by me, and I carried it out as far as it was administratively possible.
Q. If you give detailed explanations in answer to these questions of the cross examination it will take a very long time, and I wish you to answer briefly. This is not so difficult for I will put very easy questions to you. Will you please answer briefly?
A. I am trying to answer briefly as possible. I regret that an express job is always lengthy to explain; I found it pretty difficult myself.
Q. Now please answer briefly. What part did the Defendant Kaltenbrunner take in the carrying out of measures having to do with the mobilization of manpower? Did he participate in this or not?
A. I have already given you that answer.
Q. I did not understand it. Did he participate or didn't he?
THE PRESIDENT: He said that he only met Kaltenbrunner on one occasion and that the task of the recruitment of labor was not one for the police. That is what he said.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: MR. President, it was not necessary to multiply the meetings in order that Kaltenbrunner should take part in these measures. Hedid not need to meet Defendant Sauckel at regular intervals.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't want you to argue with me. I have told you what his answer was. It seemed to be an answer to your question.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, I am not arguing. I would only like him to give some explanations on this matter. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. As far as the participation of Defendant Rosenberg is concerned, I will not put any questions to you for Defendant Rosenberg himself gave quite clear answers when questioned by my American colleague, Mr. Dodd. Now tell me what part did Defendant Frick play in the carrying out of these measures?
A. Defendant Frick, as Reich Minist er of the Interior -- and I don't know how long he remained in office -- was hardly concerned with this question at all. As far as I can remember, I had only the most necessary contacts with his ministry to discuss the necessary laws which were to be published within Germany regarding German workers, as far as that was necessary. Apart from that, he had no further part in this task.
Q. We know it was not an accident that you wrote to Lammers, after the meeting of the 4th of January, that among the agencies who were to cooperate with you was the Minister of the Interior. That is why I ask you, what part did Frick play in the carrying out of these measures? You yourself asked for the cooperation of the Minister of the Interior. what was this cooperation to be?
A. To my greatest personal grief, Reichsminister Frick was then no longer Minister of the Interior, but Himmler, -- if I remember correctly.
Q. But what was the cooperation of the Ministry of the Interior which you foresaw?
A. I believe that it is obvious that in a system of every state the interior general administration must be kept informed about events taking place in so important a sector as the employment of human beings which will necessitate a large number of decrees and laws. They must be informed; they must participate. I couldn't possinly issue laws; I had no authority to do so. They had to be submitted to the Ministerial Council for the Reich Defense. I could only give the experts instructions, and that is quite a different thing.
Q. Did Defendant Funk, as Minister of Economics, and Defendant Speer, as Minister for Armaments, did they also utilize foreign manpower and were they intermediaries between you and the industrial magnates; is that correct?
A. At the end of your sentence there is a considerable erroneous conclusion. These were not agents between myself and industry. Industry was responsible to the Ministry of Rearmament when there were personnel changes. I did not negotiate with industry. They asked for workers and they get them.
Q. But tell us yourself, briefly, what wart did Defendants Funk and Speer play in the carrying out of these measures? I do not want any detailed explanations. Answer me briefly.
A. These businesses of German economy who came under these two ministers you have asked about, they received their workers and that was the end of my task.
Q. I understand. Tell us, did the Defendants Frank, Seyss-Inquart and Neurath play any part in the carrying out of these measures in all the territories which were under their jurisdiction?
I mean the territories of Poland and Czechoslovakia and the Netherlands; is that right?
A. These gentlemen, within their own territories, they were carrying them out in these zones and supported me by publishing decrees and laws. They attached considerable importance to it themselves, that such laws and instructions were humanly justified and properly drafted.
Q And what was the part played by Defendant Fritsche?
A. That I can't tell you. I only met Dr. Fritsche in Germany on one occasion and it was very brief. I think it happened at the beginning of 1945, regarding my tasks and my work. I never talked to him at all and I don't know whether, in turn, he had anything to do with it. I can only state that repeatedly, in the Ministry of Propaganda, I asked that my instructions and orders, as are contained in my document books that have been submitted by my defense, that they should be expressed by the Ministry of Propaganda, particularly to industry, so that the circles of workers concerned would receive them.
Q But one defendant is missing and that is Bormann. What was his part He put at your disposal the entire Party mechanism of the NSDAP, didn't he?
A No, he didn't. No placed at my disposal the Gauleiter, and the instructions which I gave tothe Gauleiter and the letters which I sentto then three of which I think are available here -- these things referred to the fact that I could use the assistance of the Party for the welfare, feeding and clothing, of the workers, and that they should receive everything that was necessary for then and everything that we could possibly supply then with. T was the part the Party played, as far as it could play any part at all. In other words, it was a control in favor of the foreign workers used in Germany, and apart from that the party had nothing to do with the whole thing at all. That is also because I didn't like other authorities to interfere with my works.
Q That is not quite correct. I will remind youof Point 5 of your program for the utilization of manpower which was issued by you in 1942. This is document USSR Exhibit 365. It states that the Gauleiters are nominated to be your plenipotentiaries and that they will utilize -
A May I see this document?
Q Yes, we will show this document to you. I do not quote this point but I only mention its contents, the sense of this point. It says that the Gauleiters will use in their sphere the party organs, and therefore I assume that -
A It doesn't say so at all.
Q Have you found it? enough to read on?
A Thank you so much. "The heads of the highest service departments responsible in the Gaus belonging to the State and economy come under Gauleiters regarding all important questions of workers' employment." That is within their own districts. Then the departments are listed and there is mention of a president of the local labor office. Then there is reference to the trustee of workers. That isn't a Party department either. It is a State department. Then there is the country work leader, who is a. State department -
THE PRESIDENT: Please observe the light, to be sure the interpreters are getting it.
THE WITNESS: I apologize, your Lordship.
Q yes, I understand. You needn't enumerate them. I would like to draw your attention to Point 6. It says clearly that the Gauleiters, as plenipotentiary for the utilization of manpower, will employ the Party institutions, and in the next paragraph enumerates how they will carry out this work with the aid of such institutions; and in this point where they say that they will utilize the Party agencies, I assume that, therefore, the entire party machine of the NSDAP took part in this work. Is that correct or not?
A No, and to this answer no I want to make a statement. In your first reply you told me that my description wasn't quite correct. My picture is most correct when I say that the Partywas employed to deal with the supplies for German and foreign workers and to look after their welfare. Those service departments of the Party which are listed did only carry out those tasks. They couldn't have any other jobs. I myself, as a former worker, was keen to see that those German and foreign workers should, as far as possible, be looked after during wartime, and that is the reason for this statement and no other reason, and my answer was therefore perfectly correct. in the carrying out of these measures? care of youth and protect the youngsters in the way laid down by Reichleiter Schirach and later Axmann. They made these demands very firm. That is why the welfare of the youngsters had to be taken care of; they had to be protected against all dangers, including foreign youth, and they did that. I must say that emphatically.
regarding the deportation of slave labor from occupied territories for the carrying out of aggressive war? Did you approve of that policy?
A The way you are putting your question is an indictment. I myself have said again and again that I was neither a foreign politician nor a military politician. I have said that I was given a task and I was given orders. I, as a German, tried to fulfil that task for my people and its government and to fulfil it correctly and as well as was feasible, since it had been told me that the fate of my people would partly depend on the carrying out of that task. With the knowledge of these facts I worked, and I confess that I used all my ability to fulfil that task in the manner which I have emphasized here. I considered that my duty, and that I must confess before this Court. crime, I would like to remind you of a few of your personal statements. This is Document USSR Exhibit 365 and is a program for the utilization of manpower for the year 1942. The excerpt which I will not quote will be shown to you. I read: "I beg you to believe me, as an old and fanatical National Socialist Gauleiter --" Do you find that part?
Q Now document 566 PS. It is your telegram to Hitler dated 20 April, 1943, which you sent while flying to Riga. This telegram will be handed over to you and the excerpt I am reading will also be shown to you.
"I will with fanaticism apply all my strength in view of carrying out the task assigned to me, and to justify your confidence in me."
Is that correct? the leader of the German State, who had been elected by the German State and who therefore had to be considered by me, for I was a German citizen who had an office and I considered it my duty that I would have justified myself before with the head of the state. I want to explain about this telegram.
Q. But I do not need an explanation to this telegram. I am not interested in your relationship with Hitler. I am only interested in your attitude to these measures which were carried out by you in view of the recruitment of manpower. Our next document 1292-PS, which is the record of the meeting of Hitler on the 4th of January 1944 -
A. Please, may I say something to that last statement that you, Mr. Prosecutor, had made. Please, may I add something to that, At that time, I couldn't nave considered Hitler a criminal and I didn't know he was one. I said that it was my duty to do my duty and nothing else. Crimes, considering my career, I never supported and didn't want to support.
THE PRESIDENT: What was your question, General, whether this was a telegram sent to Hitler?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I am asking the last question about the telegram and I wanted to quote the sentence and to get the defendant Sauckel's confirmation that this telegram was sent to him. I wasn't interested in anything else. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. The next document 1292-PS, do you have it before you?
A. No.
Q. I believe you were already shown a part which I am now going to read. Your statement is written as follows: "I with fanatical will strove to insure the utilization of manpower. This was speaking of four million workers mobilized. I did everything to get the necessary manpower for 1944". Did you say that? Is the record correct?
A. I did say that, and I am asking you to be allowed to add the following to the answer of mine.
I knew that the German people, and they were my people ---Please, will you allow me to add something to my answer? That is my right, since I have anwered.
Q. One moment, defendant Sauckel. You have an explanation to every answer you give; a ridiculous explanation. I am already satisfied with your answer, that you did say these words.
THE PRESIDENT: He has given a perfectly clear answer that he did say it and I think he is entitled to give some word of explanation. It is perfectly true that his explanations are intolerably long, but he is entitled to give some explanation.
GENERAL ALEXANDROVE: Mr. President, with every answer, he followed.--
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, I have said that he is entitled to give some explanation. Now then, give it short.
THE WITNESS: I knew that the German people were engaged in their most serious battle. It was also my duty that I should fulfill my task with all my faith; that is what I call "fanaticism". I also said with a further sentence that in that year I couldn't fulfill my task completely and in 1944, as far as my task could be fulfilled, it could be come to the extent that two-thirds of Germany was then being used. The majority were twoOthirds Germans, and I was fanatically trying to use the last German woman wherever she could work and bring her to wrok; that was more than two million in 1944.
Q. In April 1943, in order to acceelerate the arrival of manpower from occupied territories, you visited Rovna, Kiev, Kneipestrov, Barbaroschkev, Senoropel (?), Minsk and Riga, and in July of the same year you visited Prague, Katral, Kiev, Barbaroschkev, and Militropal.
Is that correct?
sonally that my officers were working correctly. the peaceful population of the Occupied Territories. Is that correct, too?
Q But, then, why did you go to all these towns? Didn't you do that so as to enforce the deportation to slave labor? about my offices in the town. I shouldn't say "my", but the departments that were part of the administration, how they were working and how they were carrying out the instructions -- offices of the German nation and if they were following instructions correct. I wasn't able to fulfill my instructions. That is why I went to those towns. As far as contingents were concerned, I negotiated with the heads and it is quite true that it was my task to recruit workers and to investigate conditions but as far as these visits are concerned, I inspected the offices personally to investigate their functioning and convinced myself.
Q And also to insure the speedy deportation of manpower to Germany? that connection. That is clearly contained in my instructions and that is before the Tribunal, on this very journey that you have mentioned. methods of recruitment? Am I to understand you thus? correct and thest the methods with the service department. That is why I went, so it was my task; I didn't have to go to Russia or Kiev or any other town for that purpose. I only needed to talk to the Reich Commissioner and he was in Berlin; and I would talk to the Reich Commissioner who was in Rovna. that no information as to the criminal methods of recruitment reached you and no complaints came to you. What was the reason for such a vast voyage to the Occupied Territories. I supposed that you received signals that mass deportation of slave labor was taking place. You visited more than ten cities.
A May I correct you, Mr. Prosecutor, by saying that my defense counsel asked me about that statement and that I have answered him in the affirmative, in so far as I did have complaints and where I corrected them by stopping wherever I could stop and I am having witnesses called for that reason through my defense counsel.
ascertain now the object of your trip. It is stated that these trips were carried out in order to improve the method of recruitment; therefore, I assume, logically, that before you arrived, certain arbitrary methods were carried out and you want there so as to correct these methods and you know them. New, answer, why did you go there and visit all these towns? that I assume, Mr. Frosecutor, that you personally have had so much administrative experience yourself to realize that in every department somewhere in the country, in every country in the world, it is obvious that instructions are inspected and investigated. It is even necessary to know that people in every human organization will make mistakes and that therefore they have to investigate it. you went there so as to accelerate the deportation to Germany -- one or two-choose. certain, within the limitsof my task, how my instructions were being carried out. I told my defense counsel during examination that I had been asked by Fieldmarshal Kluge about certain deficiencies but I also went to inform myself about the instructions to these departments and the purpose of my visit was correct during the journey, and I gave my evidence for that.
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, can you tell the Tribunal how much longer you will be.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I am afraid to say quite exactly but I believe about two hours.
THE PRESIDENT: You aren't losing sight of the fact, are you, that we already had a thorough cross examination by the French prosecutor. The Tribunal hopes that you will try to make your cross examination as short as possible, and the Tribunal will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken).
BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: potentiary were concerned in utilization in German industry of Russian prisoners of war. use of prisoners of war I had no collaborators because I did not employ prisoners of war.
Q And you did not carry out their mobilization? tive measures through the labor offices between the firm and the camp, or rather, the prisoner of war system, it was my task to get these prisoners of war for the firms.
Q And what were the agencies or organizations? in the army district, and the other was the organization of the firms or the firms themselves working through the ministries concerned. It was the Food Ministry of the Reich through which most prisoners were sent to farmers to work. it? I shall remind you-having to act formally, I had to include them, as far as it was not done directly between the firms themselves and the camps. Hitler of 28 July 1943. The document is 1296 PS, page 5. In this report, part three-
A Three or two?
Q Three. It is entitled "Draft of Mobilization of Soviet Prisoners of War", and you write there, and here I quote:
"Together with mobilization for labor of all civilian workers. I systematically increased mobilization or draft of Soviet prisoner; of war, being assisted by OKW."
And further on:
"I assigned great importance to the further increase of tempo and delivery of the maximum number of prisoners of war from the front to work within the Reich."
Is this correct? I have told you. time that you did not have anything to do with the utilization of prisoners of war in German industry, and now in your report you give different information, and that is why I am asking you, Did you plan in advance the utilization of prisoners of war in the armament industry? That was included in your plans, was it not, and you are writing about it in this report? Isn't that so?
A I must rectify an important error on your part. In the whole world, be it for the state or privately, labor agencies were not organizations or institutions which were exploiting workers but were passing workers on. I must note that you are making a major error there. It was my job to create connections so that these prisoners of war who might be stationed in camps in the occupied territory, say in the Government General, should be transferred from the generals for the prisoner of war system to the agricultural sectors in Germany and that they were registered and distributed accordingly. The actual employment in the firms was not under my supervision, and I had nothing to do with that. prisoners of war for utilization in Germany industry? language and my understanding of it. Vermittlung (agency) is something quite different from exploitation. Other people will have to state their views about it. I can only speak about the transfer of these people, who were handled by the state in Germany, whereas in other countries it might be a private affair. No exploitation can be mentioned in that connection. I have not exploited one single worker. utilized in the armamant industries in Germany?
A It was known to me that Soviet prisoners of war were used in German war industry, which is a very wide conception.
It was a very large affair. Marshal Keitel regarding the utilization of Soviet prisoners of war in the mining industry? This directive is dated 8 July 1943. Do you happen to know anything at all about it?
A I cannot recollect it in detail. Will you please be good enough to put it to me?
Q Have you read it? ing industry, in the interest of war. Is that correct?
Q For what purpose? The problem is directly stated in this document.
Q For what purpose? It was subject to aims and purposes? It is stated directly in the document.
AAll the German mines weren't working in the interests of war. A lot of coal from Germany was supplied to neutral countries. That was different.
Q I will read the beginning of this document. Fellow me:
"For the execution of the enlarged iron and steel program, the Fuehrer has ordered on 7 July the absolute guarantee of the necessary coal production and for that purpose he has ordered to cover the requirements for manpower with prisoners of war."
Is it written there?
A I haven't quite get hold of what you read.
Q Did you find the place? industry in the interests of war, is that correct? Isn't it stated in the document.
A Now I know it, Before that, I didn't; it didn't appear to me. to submit this document to you so that you could acquaint yourself with it in detail. asked of you would be good enough to put the document to me. The document does no have my address on it. It did not come into my hands or into my office. Q In order to fully ascertain the answer to this question, I shall submit to you document USA-206.