Q In which cases was that contract extended? continue his services or when extraordinary emergencies or loss of manpower in that particular industry justified an extension. Then that had to be discussed with the liaison man. used in Germany. What did you have to do with that use of manpower? it had to take place in accord with and under agreement with the General in charge of prisoner-of-war affairs. For me, it was very difficult to develop this so-called technique of commitment. That is a concept which I shall try to explain: war could not be used in armament, ammunition industries. If, however, the prisoners of war were not used in the armament industry , then that meant that so and so many German women and workers were replaced and put into those industries in which the Geneva Convention prohibited the use of prisoners of war, and that is, in their place prisoners of war were used. And that was done in agreement with the office of the General for prisoners of war.
Q And who saw to it that the Geneva Convention was kept? that is, the Administration for Labor Commitment,were adhering to the principle of the Geneva Convention and several times they compiled a catalogue of those types of labor for which prisoners of war could be used. Also, during my time, in 1943 and 1944, that was published as a special publication -- the so-called blue publication. contrary to the Geneva Convention? Government so far as volunteers were concerned, and in part also for Eastern workers. prisoners of war?
of War. the time you assumed office? Kesselschlachten in the East a great number of prisoners of war perished because they had been weakened by the long duration of those battles and there were great difficulties in the way of their evacuation, even on our side. war, didn't you? What could you find out at that time, or did you take any initiative? undernourished.
Q What did you do?
A Together with the General for the Affairs of Prisoners of war, I s** to it that all these prisoners of war -- as far as I know and remember, there were only 70,000 in the Reich at that time -- should be billeted with German farmers, German peasants, with an expression which we called "Aufpeppeln", that is feed them back into health. And there was an obligation connected with it, to feed these prisoners of war for at least three months without putting them to work. For that, the peasants received the assurance that un the end of the war this prisoner of war should stay with him for work. change into free laborers?
A Yes. The use of French workers especially took place only on the basis of agreement with the French Government. These agreements were concluded under the sponsorship of the German Ambassador at Paris, on the basis of task with which I was charged by the Fuehrer and by the Reichsmarshal. These qu* were dealt with and agreements were made. The first quota was 250,000 French workers, and as a counter-measure for the use of these voluntary workers -- and I emphasize voluntary in this connection -- there were to be and were 50,000 French prisoners of war who had been peasants, who were returned to the French Government and put at their disposal for agricultural purposes, so that French agriculture would be facilitated.
Q And what was really "the relief"?
A What was really "the relief" was an agreement between the French Government and my office that for three French workers who came to Germany one French prisoner of war would be put at liberty and put at the disposal of his hone country. And this was done on the decree of the Fuehrer. That is, this prisoner returned home.
Q And who was responsible for this agreement? the French Prime Minister and myself. I was much in favor of this agreement, for I myself during the First World War spent five years behind barbed wire.
Q Was it an improvement for the prisoners to return home?
Q And how did the civilian population react to that? That is, how did the people feel who had to go to Germany? received the feeling was favorable. workers come?
A No, everything was done in the same way. These workers were free. They were not prisoners in Germany.
Q Did they have to come to Germany for an unlimited period of time? like the others.
Q What was the duration of a contract? of war, as well as the other workers, could return home?
A Yes; this very exchange necessitated new quotas and new agreements with the French Government, for there always had to be replacements.
Q Were those negotiations carried on under a certain pressure?
A No; but I wish that you would hear witnesses on this. They were carried out on a free diplomatic basis. limited scale? go to Germany. weak and ill people were sent back, that is, people who couldn't work anyw* What do you have to say as to that? were sent back, and the sending back, the selection of those soldiers to be sent back, was not in my sphere but the duty of the General in charge the prisoner-of-war system; and I consider it entirely possible that sick soldiers were sent back to their home country in thisway and on their own wish. But certainly it was not the intention to send only sick people or elderly soldiers, but applied to all soldiers.
Q There was a seconc course which was followed; there was a law whi* was to alleviate conditions. What was that? provisions: In Germany French prisoners of war received the same contract as all other French civilian workers when a new French worker came to Germany. the time limited, or was it handled -disapprove of it?
A It was not disapproved; it was hailed, depending on the attitude of the soldier. A portion of them rejected it, but the others hailed it For, this measure saw to it that the worker would receive a high wage and that he would be outside barbed wire. And I myself saw how an entire c** hailed this statute, and it was shown that the gate and barbed wire were were done away with, and there was no further surveillance any more.
Q Could these prisoners who had been turned into workers come home?
Q Did they actually leave?
A Yes, they did. Many of them returned and an equally large part of then did not return from their leaves. theFrench Government report. This document shows and admits that the prisoners received leave to go home and the unfortunates did not return and therefore this procedure was stopped, it was done away with. Have you heard of the concept, "Indirect Forced Labor"?
A No. Please explain it to me. workers who worked in France in armament industries so that the result of this work was in favor of Germany, and, of course, Sauckel was not connected with this in any way. This French report, which deals at length with the economic side of manpower mobilization, says that according to that an elastic system was followed, a system in which there were amiable relations; then the measures were intensified and harshness used. In this connection was there a plan laid down? Did you have to carry through certain directives? Tell us what system you used and followed.
A I should like to go on record with this question. A plan of this sort, as you have just outlined it, actually did not exist. The only thing which existed was my program, a program which I set up and which is in the possession of the Tribunal, a program whic I have to admit and to which I adhere, as far as responsibility is concerned, and responsibility for my officials. This program was carried out in my decrees and directives which are available without any gaps. The development of this war did not permit me to contemplate just how it was to be construed. We ourselves were in the stream of development of this war and did not have time to ponder certain matters.
Q What were some of the industries in France?
A The Speer Betriebe (Works). They were industries between the Reich Minister, Speer, and I believe the French Economy Minister, Bichelonne.
Those two gentlemen had agreed that they were to be industries which in part would work for German armament, in part on German civilian production, and as far as recruitment of my office was concerned, they were to be excluded. foreign countries? according to careful estimates of the statistical department in the Reich Labor Ministry may be said to be about 5,000,000; that is a rough figure.
Q. Did you determine how far these laborers were to be used and who was to be brought in?
A. No, I could not determine that, but I was not the German economy, and of my own accord I could not determine the extent of German armament and agrarian programs.
Q. Aside from the constant needs and demands which you had to surely, there were certain programs, measures demanded by the Fuehrer. Is that true?
A. Yes, the Fuehrer set up the armament program, as far as I know.
Q. You mentioned four programs to me. I shall read these figures and perhaps you can confirm what I am reading. In the first program, in April 1942, the demand was 1.6 million; 1.6 million was the supply brought in, and the entire figure was made up of foreigners. The second program, in September 1942, 2 million, and it was met with 2 million, and one million of those, one half, were foreigners. In the year 1943, the demand was one million, and the demand was met with one million; foreign workers, one million. The last program, on 1 January 1944, the demand by the Fuehrer was 4 million, and the demand met with .9 million.
A. I should like to correct you. The figure should read, demand met with 3 million.
Q. The demand was 4, and the need met was 3 million, and how many foreigners?
A. That is .9 foreigners.
Q. How many workers came from the East, how many from the West, and how many from other regions?
A. It is hard for me to give you the exact figures without data or statistics, but on the average I can say that about 30 per cent might apply to each of these brackets, but perhaps the percentage in the East was slightly higher.
Q. And how were the demands set up?
A. Through the men who were charged.
Q. And what were the Bedarfstraeger?
A. The Bedarfstraeger, the ones charged with filling of the needs, was the armament Ministry, the Agricultural Ministry, the Reichsbahn, mines and so forth; various ministries and large concerns.
Q. And to whom id they give their demands?
A. Usually to the Fuehrer and to me, and there were collecting agencies, such as the Four Year Plan, which existed.
Q. And if your demands were to be scaled down -- or were these the first demands?
A. I have just said -- I should like to say that that varied. The demands were put to me, but at the same time they were also put to the Fuehrer because the Fuehrer had to approve of these demands.
Q. And what was the position of the Central planning Board in this connection?
A. The Central Planning Board was an agency in which, above all to my knowledge, the raw material quotas were set up, but in which workers' problems were dealt with and discussed.
Q. Could you receive orders from the Central Planning Board?
A. Yes, the demands which were put to me I had to consider as decrees, for the Fuehrer had obligated me to meet the demands of the war economy.
Q. Did you belong to the Central Planning Board yourself?
A. No, I was only called in when there were debates relating to the manpower problem.
Q. What was the relationship between your office and the office of Speer?
A. My office was in such a relationship to the office of Speer that I had to meet the demands put by Speer.
Q. Did Speer have a special machinery for manpower mobilization?
A. Yes, he had to have that in his ministry, and he did have it.
Q. Could you meet the demands put to you?
A. No.
Q. Were your labor supplies or reserves exhausted?
A. According to my conviction, yes, for even in the year 1943 -- and it was the objective of my manifesto to point this out -- the economic problems of the occupied countries were very severe, and they had to be regulated and settled, so that there would be no confusion.
Q. What were the Labor reserves present in Germany?
A. In Germany beginning with or after 1943, there were no manpower reserves which we could use: Many discussions took place about this problem but the chief demand for German workers was for specialized labor, miners and workers in heavy industries.
Q. And how about manpower reserves in France which were to be utilized?
A. I must say that from our point of view, with respect to our economic point of view, there was a very extensive reserve there.
Q. Do you wish to say that on a comparative basis the economic power of Germany was far more exhausted than that of the occupied countries?
A. Perhaps I can cite an example in a comparison with the first world war. In the first world war, in the mobilization of labor, ten to twelve million Germans were used. In this war about 25 German men and women were used, and about half of the second figure were women. In Germany these women were not included in the labor mobilization who were active in the Red Cross or other welfare agencies. These women could not be included in my statistics, but other countries used these figures.
Q. I have a concluding question. In your capacity or activity as Plenipotentiary for Labor, seen from today, what is your attitude toward the use of foreign labor in general?
A It is very hard for me to answer this question. I myself and the German people as well had to be of the opinion that this war -- and in order to be truthful, I have to include the Party -- we did not wish this war nor were we responsible for it. We are of the opinion and attitude that we had to do our duty for our people.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius -BY DR. SERVATIUS: brief answer on whether today you consider your activity justified or not. Just be brief, please. with that point of view, and the way in which I looked at my manpower mobilization, I considered it justified and above all, inevitable -- that it had to take place, for the countries which we occupied and Germany were an area that could not be separated; without Mi exchange of Eastern and Western workers, we could not have existed in Germany for even one day. The German people were used in work to the utmost.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have concluded my questioning of the defendant. BY DR. THOMA (Counsel for defendant Rosenberg): totals set down by you?
A Not only the East Ministry tried, to do that; I myself tried to do that, to lower the demand with the Fuehrer and the other members who were responsible. the abuses in recruiting and transporting of Eastern workers. I should like to put several questions to you in this regard. Did you personally try to take steps to stop the abuses which are listed here?
A Yes, of course. Please interrogate my witnesses on this. of Charkov in the Ukraine, and do you know that this entire district was never under the civilian administration of the East Ministry?
army office, rather than to me, and the army had its own agencies for this purpose. first page (a) that, "With few e xceptions the Ukrainian people were being used in the Reich in isolated cases in small industrial enterprises."
A Will you please tell no the spot?
A Sir, I do not have the place yet. There are several documents like that. in the Reich were very much satisfied with conditions and that the Ukrainians who were in certain camps were complaining; is that correct?
A Yes. In my testimony I quoted the places in whichthe author of the letter said that this took place in the first few months. Immediately had this situation checked and improved. I called the Reich Labor Minister to give out a now regulation for this, and that was on the basis of this complaint. Riga, Kovno, Sitomir did you speak to the administrative officers there? Russia I compiled this manifesto and had it published there, and everything that is contained in the manifesto was given to the offices and the agencies there. decree?
A That was my duty; that was at I was there for. your actual authority came from Goering. He was the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, and you were with him.
A Yes, that is correct. Fuehrer, Goering, Four Year Plan; that was the progression.
to give a certainemphasis?
A No, that was not my intention. The Fuehrer charged me with certain things. For instance, the loss of German soldiers was to be made up. and those were missions which I received directly from the Fuehrer through Goering on the basis of the demand.
Q Was that a written order to you?
Q Written by Hitler personally? of feet that Eastern workers in Germany, after their return to their own country, were to receive land so that they would not be at a disadvantage as compared with the people who had remained?
A Yes, that was set down between Rosenberg and myself; that is correct.
Q Did this actually take place?
A Just how far this was carried out, I am unable to state. That was a task of the Eastern ministry, and I assumed that it was carried out. of the Eastern emblem? emblem. There is a letter to the Reichsfuehrer SS, who rejected this, and at the end of 1943 or the beginning of 1944 we were successful in doing away withthis Eastern emblem, and it was replaced by a national emblem.
Q Why was this emblem to be done away with? above all, so that the Eastern workers would not feel that they were being discriminated against by having a special emblem. talked over with Rosenberg, having received other complaints. Numerous complaints were received by the Central Agency for Eastern Peoples, and they were checked by the D.A.F. constantly. Did the D.A.F. report to you on this?
A The D.A.F., the German Labor Front, reported that they were acting in accordance with my directives, that they tried to put a stop to abuses. That was its obligation. In order to stop these abuses, the D.A.F. should not have turned to me but, rather, to a special branch of the Reich Labor Ministry.
Q Did you make sure whether this agency stopped these abuses?
A I installed my own inspection agencies, as Dr. Servatius mentioned, but this was the only authorized, agency which had the authority to use coercion but the Reich Labor Minister was its immediate superior.
DR. THOMA: I have no further question, and thank you. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is the emblem that you have been speaking about?
A The eastern Emblem consisted of a square; it had a blue inscription "East"; it had a blue border and on the responsibility of the Reich Leader SS, it had to be worn first on the right chest; later on, on the sleeve and later, on my responsibility, a national emblem was chosen -- I believe the Russian color blue, or as the people themselves wished the color to be. DR. NELTE: Dr. Nelte, on behalf of Keitel. BY DR. NELTE:
Q Mr. Sauckel, the defendant Keitel and the OKW are accused by the prosecution under the point "deportation of civilian people for the purpose of manpower mobilization." You were interrogated on this matter before the beginning of this proceeding, to the effect whether the OKW and Keitel, as Chief of the OKW, participated in the recruitment of people in the occupied countries. A series of things which are not clear, which are contained in some of the record, have been cleared up by your testimony and in answering the last question of my colleague, Dr. Thoma, you made it clear to us that the organizational official channel is as follows: G.B.A., Four Year Plan Goering, and Fuehrer, Is that correct? the OKW was included, as far as a matter of competence is concerned,or whether the Fuehrer as commander-in-chief of the Wehrmacht -- the Fuehrer? I am not familiar with the organization and the details of the OKW and of the OKH and it was hard for a layman to keep these matters separate. It is correct that as far as the field of use of workers in occupied countries where army groups were competent, the OKH was the superior; therefore, regulations for workers as applying to the occupied countries which was under the sovereignty of the army, laws or directives from the General Staff of the army had to apply.
Q You mean General Quarter master of the army, perhaps? in-chief of the army. Keitel, as far as the taking of these people for recruitment problem of workers in occupied countries, had no competence in this direction? I came in connection with Fieldmarshal Keitel in this way, that the Fuehrer repeatedly asked me to ask Fieldmarshal Keitel to give his decree, as far as the army is concerned, and transmit those decrees by telephone otherwise.
Q And what about the question of the workers. Did the OKW and, specifically, Keitel as Chief of the OKW, have a competent function for the question of the use of workers at home?
A No. For the use of workers took place in those economic branches for which they were needed and there was no connection with the OKW at all.
DR. NELTE: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any members of the prosecution wish to crossexamine? BY M. HERZOG: 1925, didn't you? Isn't that correct? member and that began in 1923. When the Party was reorganized in 1925, I again became a member. Socialism, didn't you? did not belong to the Party. I knew of the Party and I was interested for it, but that is perhaps all.
Q But didn't you, as early as that date, make speeches in favor of National Socialism?
A perhaps; beginning with the year, the middle of 1921 onwards, I made speeches in favor of Germany, not expressly for the Party, and I spoke about the things that were close to my heart.
Q You have been a Gauleiter, haven't you; a member of the Landrat, Minister for Home Affairs, and Reichsstatthalter, or Governor of Thuringia. Is it exact that in this quality, you carried out the Nazification of your Gau? and I was Minister of the Interior as well.
Q I am asking you the question again: Is it exact that as Gauleiter and Reichsstatthalter or Governor of Thuringia, you carried out the Nazification of your Gau?
A The Nazification? -- that was a conflict with which I was neither familiar nor do I consider it correct. I recruited for the National Socialist Workers Party and I worked for it.
Q You were an Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS organization, were you not?
A I do not quite under stand -- SS? not? basis I was Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS but I was never active in the SS nor did I have any functionsin the SS. of the SS? of the SS beginning with 1934.
Q Up to when? book, Sauckel Document 95, on page 252 of the French translation, I am going to read the following passage: "My dear fellow-countrymen, our magnificent SA and SS, persecuted and insulted during a whole decade, have carried through, supported, and sustained this revolution with an unshakable discipline..." Is it exact?
THE PRESIDENT: What are you reading from?
M. HERZOG: From document 95, of one of the document books of the defendant, Mr. President; Sauckel Document 95, which was submitted yesterday by my learned colleague, counsel for the defense. Page 252 of the French translation, and it is in the third document book of the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on. BY M. HERZOG:
Q I am going to put the question to you again. In this document, I am readings "My dear fellow-countrymen, our magnificant SA and SS, persecuted and insulted during a whole decade, have carried through, supported, and sustained this revelution with an unshakeable discipline ...". Do you still stand on this declaration? define my attitude.
yourself submitted?
your own personal convictions on the subject?
A The legislation? In adcord with the Nurnberg laws, that legislation was not influenced by me. The conviction which I have is that each people and each race has the right to exist and has the right to respect and to be protected through herself and that which I demand for my own people, that is exactly the same. fully applied to the Gau of Thuringia?
A The Nurnberg laws could apply to Thuringia. As far as the dismissal or appointment if officials was concerned, and, of course, according to German law, I was obligated to carry cut the law. There was neither an infraction or any other inhumane act that was connected with this law.
Q Did you approve of Hitler's theory on living of the so-called "Lebensraum". wrote about it in his book and how far I agreed or disagreed that, in my opinion, cannot in this proceeding be dealt with by me, for I had no influence on how the Fuehrer himself considered the word "lebensraum".
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that you must answer the question, whether or not you approve of the doctrine of "lebensraum."
THE WITNESS: The explanation made by the Fuehrer about the concept "lebensraum," I am not sure about everything he said. I should like to emphasize that I did not consider "lebensraum" and the carrying through of wars of aggres sion, that these two concepts to me did not coincide not even in my thoughts and I did not transmit this concept in thought, but the concept "lebensraum" was characterized for us by the fact that the European population in the last hundred years increased threefold, from one hundred fifty million to four hundred fifty million. BY M. HERZOG:
Q I am repeating my question. Did you, yes or no, approve of the theory of "lebensraum"? Kindly answer yes or no. 29-May-A-NG-19-1 Daniels with wars of aggression.
Q Did you approve of Hitler's theory of the superior race? master race in my speeches. I personally of the opinion that capacity is the deciding factor, and not a master race. many ought to have been determined by the two theories, the theory of Lebensraum on the one hand, and the theory of a master race on the other hand? myself with foreign politics. I am not versed in foreign political matters.
Q Didn't you, to the contrary, approve of all the measures of foreign policy which Hitler used, and didn't you participate in them?
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had butter break off now, and you can repeat the question tomorrow.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 30 May 1046 at 1000 hours.)
Official Transcript of the International
DR. EXNER (Counsel for the defendant Jodl): Mr. President, I should like to put a request to you. My client is the one next in order and would like to be excused, if possible, this afternoon and all day tomorrow, so that he can prepare his case.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
THE MARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, the report is made that the defendant vonPapen is absent. BY. MR. HERZOG: Germany's foreign policy should have been determined according to Hitlerian culture withthe idea of the Master Race.
A May I please ask you to repeat the question? I did not quite understand it. of Germany should have been determined with respect to two Hitlerian theories, "Lebensraum" and "Master Race". carried on according to the principles of "Lebensraum" and the "Master Race"? have been so.
A Not according to the principle of the superior race. I should like to be permitted to give an explanation of this statement. I personally considered the statements made by some of the National Socialist leaders about a "Master Race" -- I heard their statements, and I did not approve of them. As a young man I travelled about the world. I travelled in Australia and in America, and I made some contacts whichnow serve as good memories to me, but I loved my own people and tried -- and this is something I admit-I believed that my own people was entitled to an equality of rights, and that was the position I represented.