A I had no reports from Nickel. This report which is here in the document went to the Reich Ministry for occupied eastern territories, and just how far the Reich Youth Leader was being informed, that isn't known to me. my statement as to the first of the Junker's work and the professional training which these youngsters were given in Germany. Apart from that I have no further knowledge.
Q Observe also, if you will, Mr. Witness, that your Hitler Youth Operational Command was inPoland and even in Northern Italy. And now I ask you once again, as the longtime Hitler Youth Leader, as the leader for the war commitment of youth, then Gauleiter in Vienna, with part of this program being carried on in Vienna and the whole program being carried on on this vase scale, do you want the Tribunal to believe that you know nothing about it? letter to Streicher's "Stuermer".
MR. DODD: I would like to submit this in evidence, Mr. President, so that the Tribunal will have an idea of what it appeared like on the front page of the "Stuermer". Witness. It is USA 871. I just wanted you to have a look at it before it was submitted. You know about it anyway.
Q Yes, I didn't wish to go into it further. What I do want to ask you, Mr. Witness, is do I understand you clearly when I say that from your testimony we gathered that it was Hitler who ordered the evacuation of the Jews from Vienna and that you really didn't suggest it or wish to see it carried out?
Is that a fair understanding of your testimony of a day or two age? evacuation of the Jews from Vienna was Hitler's idea which he communicated to me in1940 at headquarters. Furthermore, I have stated that under the of the opinion that it would be better if the Jewish population were accomodated in a closed settling area, because from time to time Goebbel's propaganda and Goebbel's actions made them the target. I want to state that quite clearly here to you. Furthermore, I have said in connection with the same matter, that therefore I will identify myself with that action without having carried it out.
Q Now you had a meeting at the Fuehrer's headquarters in October of 1940. Present was the Defendant Frank and the now notorious Koch whom we have heard so much about. Do you remember that meeting?
A I don't know for certain and exactly.
Q You mean you don't recall that meeting at all?
A October, 1940. At that time I went to the Reich Chancellory because that was the time when I was organizing evacuation of youngsters. It is possible.
THE PRESIDENT: You were asked whether you recalled a particular meeting in October, 1940 with certain, particular people. Do you remember it or don't you?
A I have no recollection of it. If I am shown a document, then I might confirm that. BY MR. DODD:
Q Very well; that is what I wanted to know. I will now show you the document USSR 172. A part of this document was read over the system for the Tribunal by Colonel Pokrovsky. Now you will observe that on the 10th of October -- the 2nd of October, rather -- this is a memorandum, by the way, made up of the meeting. Mr. Martin Bormann compiled those notes so I assume he was think too.
After a dinner at the Fuehrer's apartment there developed a conversation on the nature of the Government General: "The treatment of the Poles and the incorporation already approved by the Fuehrer for certain districts of Ziechenan." Then it says: "The conversation began when Reich Minister Dr. Frank informed the Fuehrer that the activities in the Government General could be termed very successful. The Jews in Warsaw and other cities were now looked up in the ghettos and Cracow would very shortly be cleared of them. Reichsleiter von Schirach, who had taken his seat at the Fuehrer's other side, remarked that he still had more than 50,000 Jews in Vienna whom Dr. Frank would have to take ever from it. Party Member Dr. Frank said this was impossible. Gauleiter Koch them pointed out that he, too, had up to now not transferred either Poles or Jews from the District of Ziechenau but these Jews and Poles would now of course have to be accepted by the Government General." And it goes on to say that Dr. Frank protested against this also. He said there weren't housing facilities. I am not quoting directly. I don't want to read all of it. And that there were not sufficient other facilities. Do you remember that conference now?
Q Yes. And you suggested that you wanted to got 50,000 Jews moved into Frank's territory out of Vienna, didn't you?
A That is true. The Fuehrer asked me how many Jews there were left in Vienna. I mentioned that during my own examination the other day and it is contained in the files, that at that time there were still 60,000 Jews in Vienna. During that conversation, when the question of settling Jewish the Government General was being discussed, I also said that these 50,000 Jews from Vienna were also still to be transferred to the Government General. I told you earlier that because of the events of November, 1938, I had considered the Fuehrer's plan to take the Jews to a different settlement as a good plan. own counsel inquired, Lammers sent you a message in Vienna and he said the Fuehrer had decided, after receipt of one of the reports made by you, that the 60,000 Jews in Vienna would be deported most rapidly, and that was just two months after this conference that you had with Frank and Koch and Hitler, wasn't it?
A Yes, since 1937 -- and I think that becomes clear from Haszbach's minutes -- the Fuehrer had the thought of taking the Jewish population outside Germany, but the plan didn't become known to me until August, 1940, when, because of the taking over of the Vienna district, I was reporting to him. At that time he asked me how many Jews there were in Vienna and I answered his question, and now they were to be settled in the Government General. you were the Gauleiter?
A First of all, the carryong out of that action wasn't in my hands at all. I don't know how many of these 6,000 Jews were actually transported for that purpose.
Q Have you any idea where they went to? and the others were being taken into Poland to the Government General. On one occasion when I took my oath, either as the Governor of the town or on the occasion of a lecture regarding children in Vienna, I asked Hitler how the Jews were being occupied and he told me in accordance with their professions.
Q We will get around to that. You remember, don't you, that they were sent -- at least some of them were sent to the cities of Riga and Minsk, and you were so notified. Do you remember receiving that information?
A No, I don't.
Q Document 2931-PS, which becomes USA-672. Now this is a communication concerning the evacuation of Jews and it shows that 50,000 Jews were to be sent to the Minsk-Riga area, and you got a copy of this report as the Commissar for the Reich. If you will look on the last page you will see an initial there of your chief assistant, the SS man Dellbruegge, and also the stamp of your office as having received it.
A I can only say that Dr. Dellbruegge put the matter in the files. It shows D.D.A. to the files.
Q You knew nothing of the report. Returning to the Jews, even though you had been talking to Hitler about it, that they were being moved out of your area, I suppose your chief assistant didn't bother to tell you anything about it.
Is that what you want us to understand? light on this one. It is USA 808, already in evidence . It tells you what happened to the Jews in Minsk and Riga, and this was also received in your office if you recall. Maybe it isn't necessary to show it to you again. You remember the document -- that is one of those monthly reports from Heydrich where in he said that there were 29,000 Jews in Riga and they had been reduced to 2500, and that 33,210 were shot by the special unit, Einsatzgroup. Do you remember that? most carefully, and on this occasion I must make this principal statement, that on the cover, right-hand bottom, there is an initial something like Dr. FSCH. I think that is Dr. Fischer's initials. At the top they are not initialed by me but by the Government President, with the notiation that they should be put into the files. I myself had not read or seen them. claiming that these documents came into your organization and into the hands of your principal assistant? me, then there must be a corresponding initial on it, either "Put before the Reichsleiter" or something like that, and the officials in question would then countersign and initial it. If I myself had seen the document, then it will have my own initials "WKE"; that means to my knowlege.
Q Yes. I want to remind you that the date of that report is February 1942, and I also want to remind you that in there as well Heydrich tells you how many Jews they had killed in Minsk. Now you made a speech one time in Poland about the Polish or the Eastern policy of Germany. Do you remember it, Mr. Witness?
A In Poland?
A In 1939 I spent a short time in Poland and I don't think I was there after that.
Q Your memory seems particularly poor this morning. Don't you remember speaking in Kattowitz on the 20th of January, 1942?
Q Upper Silesia, all right. Do you remember that speech?
Q And did you talk about Hitler's policy for the Eastern territories?
A I can't tell you that from memory, what I said there. I have made many speeches. You were speaking to a group of Party leaders and German Youth Leaders. The Hitler Youth had carried out political schooling along the line of the Fuehrer's easten policy and you went on to say how grateful you were to the Fuehrer for having turned the German people toward the East because the East was the destiny of your people. What did you understand to be the Fuehrer's eastern policy or did you have a good understanding of it at that time? that wehad that part of the country back.
Q Well, I didn't ask you that, really. I asked you if you then understood the Fuehrer's policy when you made that speech? over Poland at that time and the recovery of German soil, and I did affirm the Eastern policy.
it.
A I don't quite know how I should answer that question. Perhaps Hitler understood something quite different on the Eastern policy than I did.
Q But my point is; he had told you about it, hadn't he, some time before you made this speech? USSR-172, and you will find that after you and Frank and Koch and Hitler finished talking about deporting the Jews from Vienna, the Fuehrer then told you what he intended to do with the Polish people, and it is not a very pretty story, if you will look at it. Government General to have only a small parcel of land sufficient for his own feeding and the feeding of his family. Anything else he might require in cash for clothing and additional food, he would have to earn through work in Germany. The Government General would be the central or parent office for retraining workers, particularly agricultural workers. The existence of these workers would be perfectly secure. They could always be used as cheap labor. This is a question of agricultural labor.
Q Let me read you a few excerpts that I think you have missed:
"The Fuehrer further emphasized that the Poles, in direct contrast to our German workmen, are born for hard labor..." and so on. "The standard of living in Poland has to be and remain low."
Moving over to the next page:
"We, the Germans had on one hand over-populated industrial districts, while there was also a shortage of manpower and agriculture. That is where we could make use of Polish laborers. For this reason, it would be right to have a large surplus of manpower in the Government General so that every year the laborers needed by the Reich could in fact be procured from there. It is indispensable to keep in mind that there must be no Polish landlords. However cruel this may sound, wherever they are, they must be exterminated. As I understand, there must be no mixing of blood with the Poles."
Further on, he had to stress once more that:
"There should be one master only for the Poles, the Germans. Two masters side by side cannot exist. All representatives of the Polish intelligentsia are to be exterminated. This sounds cruel, but such is the law of life."
Stopping there for a minute, by the way, Mr. Witness -- you are a man of culture, so you have told the Tribunal -- how did that sentiment expressed by the Fuehrer impress you? said that as far as the policy in the Ukraine in 1943 is concerned, I reproache the Fuehrer. In 1942, when I was talking about policy in the German town of Kattowitz in Upper Silesia, then I was, of course, not talking about this brutal Polish policy of Hitler's.
Q But you knew about it when you made the speech, didn't you?
A I didn't remember that two years later, and I didn't mean it either. that you must be masters of these people, that they must remain at a low standard of living? Did that pass out of your mind so easily? spoke about quite different matters, and I assume that the Prosecution even have the shorthand record of that speech and you only need submit it here. This is only a short extract.
Q You see, Mr. Witness, the point is, knowing what the policy was, I would like to have you tell the Tribunal how you could urge and praise that policy to a group of young people and party leaders on the occasion of this speech in Kattowitz. that policy which Hitler developed in his speech.
Q Of course, you said it was the Fuehrer's policy in your speec, and you know what it was, but I won't press it further if that is your answer. of erroneous loyalty to the Fuehrer.
Q That is what I want to know. You were, weren't you, acting under an impulse of loyalty to the Fuehrer. Now you recognize it to be erroneous, and that is all I am inquiring for, and if you tell the Tribunal that, I shall be perfectly satisfied.
Q Very Well. And, Mr. Witness, now we are getting to it; that goes for all these things that went on.
Q Don't you have to say to the Tribunal concerning your letter to the Stuermer and all of these things about the Jewish people to the young people, and this slow building up of race hatred in them, the cooperation with the SS, your handling of the Jews in Vienna, that for all those things you are responsible?
MR. DODD: Finally, I want to offer in evidence, Mr. President, some excerpts from these weekly SS reports to which I referred briefly on Friday, so that they shall be before the Tribunal. There are 55 of them, Mr. President, and they run consecutively by weeks, and they all bear the stamp of this defendant's office as having been received there, and they supplant the monthly report which was receivedup to the time that weekly reports began arriving. defendant wishes to put in any others, we will make them available, of course. We have selected a few as samples to illustrate the kind of report that was contained in these weekly reports, and I wish to offer them.
The first one is No. 1, beginning on May 1, 1942, and No.4, No. 6, No. 7, No. 9, NO. 38, No. 41, and No. 49.
Now I want to make this clear to you, Mr. Witness,out of fairness. Besides statements concerning what was happening to the Jews, you will find in these weekly reports a number ofstatements about the partisan affairs in the East as well. These excerpts have mostly to do with what happened to the Jews, and wehave, Mr. President, drawn out a great number that had to do with the partisans. There are a number, however, that do have to do with partisans and not with the Jews, so we wish there to be no doubt about how we offer these weekly reports.
BY MR. DODD:
Q I just want to ask you, with respect to these weekly reports: Do you, this morning, recall that you did receive them every week in your office?
A But that isn't my office. My office is the central office. That office was run by the Regierungspresident as appears from the initials on the files, and as any official trained in German bureaucracy can confirm here, that office initialed the file through an official. Then it was put before the Regierungspresident and he initialed it. I couldn't know these documents at all.
Q Now just a minute. You were the Reich Commissioner for the defense of that territory, weren't you?
Q And that is the stamp that is on these weekly reports, isn't it?
Q Well, what do you mean by saying that it wasn't your office? ministry where it goes to the office of a minister. It came to the central office, and then there would have to be a corresponding mark on these files. I can understand perfectly well, considering the burden of work which I suffered from, why such files which had no connection with my activities and which were informatory in connection with Russian events and the fight with Russia, weren't put before me at all by the Regierungspresident. this examination: Dellbruegge, who initialed these, was your principal assistant, wasn't he? Yes or no. assistant, as we asked the other day.
A Dellbruegge was a high SS leader. He was a confidant of the Reichs Leader SS.
Q How did he happen to be working for you?
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I don't think it is necessary to read any excerpts from these weekly reports. They have been translated into four Then I think it would be better if we have them translated and submit them at a later date rather than take the time to read them now.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better adjourn now.
(A recess was taken.)
BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: culcating German youth and children, beginning with ten years of age, with Fascist ideology?
Do you hear mr? agree and admit that in the Hitler Youth I inculcated children from the age of 10 to 14 with Fascist ideas. duty and saw my mission, in order to educate the German youth-
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): That is not an answer to the question. It is not necessary for you to tell us what you said in your previous evidence. Will you just answer the question: Do you admit that you inculcated, in the Hitler Youth, Hitler's ideology? You can answer that yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Icannot answer that question yes or no, because Fascism is involved. There is a tremendous difference between Fascism and National Socialism. I cannot affitm that question. I did educate the German youth to be National Socialists That I can admit. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: on the 16th of November, 1945, during your interrogation. You defined your personal attitude to Hitler in the following way; and I quote your evidence:
"I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler. I considered everything that he wrote and stated to be absolutely true." submitted to me. I never mentioned Hitler as a diety, never. I remember exactly, General, that you interrogated me on this occasion, and I was asked whether I was an enthusiastic follower. I confirmed that, and I discussed the period of time at which I joined the movement, but I never set up the comparison which I am confronted with now, the comparison that I considered Hitler a diety.
Your evidence has been taken down, and I will repeat it:
"I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler, and I considered everything that he wrote and stated as an absolute truth."
Do you confirm this statement? Answer the question directly. to have the question out precisely, please.
Q I will quote your statement again:
"I was an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler's, and my attitude towards everything he wrote and said was that it was the absolute truth." Is that right? an enthusiastic adherent of Hitler's, and that I defined my attitude toward everything that he said and wrote. However, I could not have uttered any such nonsense, of having taken everything he said as the truth.
DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for defendant Sauckel): May I give an explanation to this interpretation? In my opinion it would have to be stated correctly in German, "I considered as a revelation the things which he said", rather than "the truth". That seems to be a mistake in the interpretation. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: my question.
A General, that was not my defense counsel; that was the defense counsel for the defendant Sauckel.
If it is to be translated in such a way as "revelation", then of course the whole thing will have content and sense and will coincide with the things that I uttered and declared to you at that time when I described the Youth.
In your book, entitled "The Hitler Jugend", it said-- and I quote page 17: "Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, is our bible." Do you confirm this? Did you write that?
A I added something to that in the book "The Hitler Youth Idea and Form", and I should like to say, first of all, I did write this book.
Q I would like to interrupt you. I do not need such detailed explanations, and I would like you to answer the question: Is that sentence contained in your book? add something by way of explanation, and I should like to give this explanation at this point. published in 1934--that we could not give reasons for our beliefs, we just believed, and when Hitler's book Mein Kampf appeared, this book appeared to be a bible, a bible which we almost memorized so that we could answer questions of doubt. I wrote that at that time, that is correct.
Q I would like to put another question to you. Do you admit that the Hitler Jugend was a political organization which, under the leadership of the NSDAP, carried out the policy of this Party among German youth? a political basis, but I cannot admit that it was led by the Party; it was led by me. I was a member of the Party leadership, and in that sense you might speak of an influence by the Party. However, I cannot see any reason for having to confirm it at this point; I have testified to this point already. It is correct that the Hitler Youth was the youth organization of the Party. If that is the sense of your question, I will admit that. signed for the education of youth. That is set out in Rauschning' book, which has already been submitted as documentary evidence before the Tribunal as USSR 378. I quote page 262 of that book:
"We will educate cool youth and exigent youth. Youth must possess all these qualities; it must be insensible to compassion, it must not possess any pity, and I would like to see in its glance the glance of a wild animal."
of Hitler. Do you admit that?
A I will not admit the things that Mr. Rauschning has written and set down. Just by accident I was present at a conversation between Hitler and Rauschning and, judging from that, the things that Rauschning set down in his book represent an unfaithful record or reproduction of Hitler's statements. Just by accident I was a witness of a conversation like that. give me those directives or guiding principles which Rauschning sets down as the guiding principles.
Q We did not ask you to give such a detailed explanation. I would like you to answer briefly the question I put to you. You have stated that Hitler Youth did not educate the German Youth in the militaristic spirit and did not prepare the German Youth to shoot aggressive wars. I would like to remind you of certain statements you made in that very same book, Hitler Youth, right here on page 83 of that book, the teaching of the younger generation of so-called Jungvolk. I quote:
"They are the bearers of the National Socialist Title. The manufacturers and the toy sellers are anxious because they do not need any toys. They are interested in selling tents, compasses and maps. It is a particular trait of our youth. Everything that is against our unity must be thrown to the flames." That according to those directives the German soldier learned the housing and billetting in occupied territories, is that true? Is that written in that book?
A That which is in front of me is set down in the book. That which I heard from the Interpreter is not set down in the book.
"The manufacturers of toys have complained that the boys, I am talking about young boys, do not wish to have toys any longer, but were interested in tents, compasses and other articles like that. I cannot help the manufacturer of Facist Toys for I feel that time of the Indians must be past. What is a savage in the American forest as compared to one who carries our flag? It is a pure remnant from the ethics of our fathers, not only the manufacturer of toys, but who today is wearing the cap of students, who today is better qualified than the units of Hitler Youth? to be burned, and that, General, is the impression of the period of storm and stress of Youth aside from the social units. children must no longer play with toys and must do other things. I don't see a great deal of difference between my quotation and yours.
the German people seems behind that of the Soviet Union.
Q I don't consider that comparison very adequate. On page 98 of your book, speaking of Hitler Youth, you wrote:
"They strive to be soldiers of politics. Their model is Adolph Hitler." Did you write that?
A I haven't found the place, page 98?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has admitted he wrote the whole book, hasn't he?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: In order not to lengthen the proceedings we will pass to the next question. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Hitler Youth, you assert this organization had only it's party aim, is that right? made excursions into the Hinterland and I said as soon as I realized that the Motorized Hitler Youth had a pre-military significance I did not dispute this point at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd cress examined the witness at very considerable length on these matters about the special units of Hitler Youth, and it really isn't any good to go over it all again.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Yes, Mr. President. Only a few moments. He explained the important elements. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: organization of Motorized Hitler Units consisted of Nazi detachments of one hundred thousand young men? memory. Is it the words I repeated through the translation or do you mean in our organization the exact strength of the motorized Hitler Jugend for 1938?
I mentioned the figure either to Mr. Dodd or to my defense attorney and I gave all figures, exact figures in that respect. thousand Hitler Youth and I would like you to confirm that. Do you have knowledge of this fact? hundred thousand you th in the motorized Hitler Youth. It might have been sixty thousand, it might have been 120 thousand. I cannot tell. I do not know. I do not have the proof. archives. I would like to recall the tasks of those organizations as those were set out in the newspaper, Abteilung, dated November, 1939. The preparation of the Youth Organization must be carried out in special instructional detachments, and furthermore in special motorized schools of National Socialist Motorized Hitler Youth. I quote this excerpt according to the Document Book of the Defense, Document 20, page 50 of the Russian text. I repeat:
"The official preparation of this organization must be carried out in special instruction detachments, and later in special motorized schools of the National Socialist Motorized Corps, but this applies only to Youths who have reached the age of eighteen. The course of instruction includes, besides practical matters, the training, orientation and also biological preparation of Hitler Youth, and those who fulfill successfully this course of instructionwill be admitted into the National Socialist Motor Corps or its complement." This looks very much like what youcall sporting tasks. Do you agree withthis?
THE PRESIDENT: We have heard a long commentary about these special units, and we really don't want to hear it any more. If you have any questions on new matters which haven't been dealt with by Mr. Dodd we shall be glad to hear them but we don't want to hear about whether there are sixty, a hundred thousand or a hundred twenty thousand Hitler Youth in the Motorized Corps.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: But I am only repeating that which is in the Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want to hear it.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I will pass on to the next question. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Youth, so called Hitler Jugend, in service. In this directive it shows a comparison of the theory of weapons and the theory of firing, targets, shooting, marching, exercises, topography and landscaping, also an appendix includes instructions for the utilization of a field camp. Are you acquainted with this directive? Do you consider that this also did not correspond to the aim of a military preparation of German Youth? Thursday. I discussed this matter at length, and especially about the training which is set forth in the book "Das Archiv," and in that connection I remarked that this training in shooting was according to the rules of the international shooting and has been carried on according to international rules and that the British education also recommended certain exercises as well as the book. I do not dispute that this book, Hitler Jugend in Service was given out by me and that it was a directive along general principles. I said that the other day. in the fifth column in Poland and that also applies to Yugoslavia. The Yugoslavian Government has put at our disposal documents which estimated the participation of the Hitler Jugend Im Dienst, through the Hitler Jugend, and claims it as a fifth column on Yugoslavia territory. Do you have any knowledge of this fact? Do you know anything about this?
A. The Hitler Youth was never active in the Fifth Column, neither Yugoslavia nor anywhere else.
Q. I will then quote excerpts from the official report of the Yugoslav Government. This has already been submitted to the Tribunal as USSR Exhibit 75. I quote from name 3 of the Tussian text of this document:
"The German Government and the National Socialist Party in a secret way organized German aggression; beginning with 1930 they had mass organizations of culture. Already in 1932 Dr. Jacob Avender was in favor of the unions of culture. In 1935 he was put at the head of active youth organizations which shortly after this began to be called the rejuvenating organization."
Do you know anything about this?
A. According to the reports which you have just mentioned, I can not make any statement I understood this much, that Bohle had some Youth leaders as his men there, but I cannot give you any exact date. As far as the question of Yugoslavia is concerned, I can tell you from my previous background that I had a very good relationship and good connections with Yugoslav youth, that the connections were amiable and friendly, and especially in the period before the war.
Q. I am not interested in that. I will try to help you then. I will quote from excerpts from a supplementary report of the Yugoslav Government which is submitted to the Tribunal as Yugoslav Exhibit 357. On page 8 of the Russian text of this document we read:
"Beginning with 1928 between the Volksdeutsche in our country an orientation movement begins toward National Socialism and the first groups of youth start going to Germany for special course of instructions. But before the war with the Soviet Union the greater part of these members became officers of the German Army. Besides the Youth organizations, a special SS division, Prinz Eugen, was formed."
Do you deny these facts?
Q. I can admit some. Some of this I have to refute. In other words, I have to give an explanation. Beginning with 1933 I tried to maintain and bring about a good relationship with Yugoslavia. Starting with approximately 1936 or 1937 I extended invitations to Yugoslav Youth groups, as well as the Youth groups of all the European countries, and invited them to visit and look at our installations.