Q You will notice that the last line says, "Baldur von Schirach, take me with you!" Prosecution to hear you say, as Youth Leader, that youdid not know that there was a great difficulty between the churchmen of all the churches of Germany and the Youth organization in Germany, certainly during these years. in the Youth there was a period of storm and stress and development, and you can judge the organization according to the actions of a few individuals or according to the actions of groups in the same year in which these members were taken into the organization. The result of an educational program can be judged only after years. It would have been possible that a group of youth from a rather Godless organization which was taken into our ranks in 1954 should have composed and sung those songs, but in 1936 they certainly would not have done anything like that any longer.
Q Well, let's see what you were doing in 1937. You know the publication "Enjoyment, Discipline, Belief" Do you know that handbook for cultural work in your youth camps?
Q I'll show it to you, but I wanted to ask you, first of all: Do you know the publication? Do you know what I am talking about when I refer to it?
A I do not know all of the publications. We had such a wealth of publications that unless I have the book in front of me I cannot give any statement regarding it.
Q All right; I'll take your answer that you don't know this one without seeing it. We'll show it to you. This one, among other things, has the program for a week in one of your camps, a suggested series of programs. Again I'll ask you a question and maybe we can cut this down.
Isn't a fact that in your camps you tried to make Hitler and God more than partners, and particularly tried to direct the religious attitudes of young people to the belief that Hitler was sent to this earth by God and was his divinely appointed in Germany? program.
A No. A comparison between Hitler and God was never established by me, and I would consider that as blasphemy. Whoever made that comparison, I always considered it blasphemous. sent by God, a leader sent to the people, that is correct. I believe any great man in history -- and I considered Hitler such a man in the past -- cannot be considered as having been sent by God.
HR. DODD: This is Document 2436-PS, USA-859. your attention to some specific parts. mottoes, I guess you would say, for the day. They are all political or military heroes of Germany, I expect, aren't they?
Q You don't need to read them all. If they are not, say they aren't, and if they are, say yes. I merely asked you if they were not all military or political heroes of Germany. characterized as a war here. At the came time, surely, and in the same measure, he was an artist as well as being an officer.
Q All right, I'll pass that and take your answer that they are not.
Let's move on to the Sunday morning celebration on page 70 of your text, near the end of it. I wanted to particularly direct your attention to this in view of what you said about Rosenberg earlier this afternoon:
"If there is nobody to make a short celebration address -- it must be thrilling and good -- one should read from the 'Kampf' or the speeches of the Leader, from Rosenberg's works " -- do you find that? to do with your Hitler Youth? You were suggesting that for Sunday morning reading, weren't you?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say the reference to Rosenberg is on page 70?
MR. DODD: Of the English text? No, sir. It is page 3; page 70 of the German text. BY MR. DODD:
Q It may be page 71 of your text, Mr. Witness. I had it page 70. You will find it there. Don't you see it?
A Page 71 of the German text. That means one of the numerous handbooks for cultural work. Rosenberg held meetings and some of the educators attended two or three times a year. That a reference is made to some of this does not prove anything, and I believe that you would have to look very, very far before you found this particular passage in the many handbooks for youth.
Q Let me ask you something about this. You find one line in here for the Sunday morning celebration about a churchman, a chaplain, holy scripture, or anything related to religious institutions and tell the Tribunal where it is.
was to be a separation in the religious and state training of youth. A young man who wanted to go to church could go after this morning celebration. This was something that took place at camp. Or before this celebration, if he wished, he could attend mass or attend a Protestant service, and on these Sundays in which there was nothing special planned at the camp -- for this camp lasted only three weeks --- he was completely free to attend church at home with his parents.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, I think it is fair to say that immediately before the words "page 71" there are three lines which might be said to refer to religion.
MR. DODD: Yes, I intend to quote it. I was saving that for a little later. I will be glad to do it now if your Honor prefers to have it.
THE PRESIDENT: No. BY MR. DODD: is suggested for the youth of this camp, on page 89 of your text, or 90, and on page 6 of the English text. I think you will agree that it ridicules, to put it mildly, the Jews, other political parties in Germany. It refers to "Isidor, Isidor" in the opening lines, and it goes on down, "That's when poor Michel was badly off; he was actually the Jewish slave." In another line, "He gave the gang and the Jew a kick." what is it-a shadow show, and "The nose of Isidor must be strongly exaggerated; the German Michel is presented in the customary manner; the Communist as a wild barricade fighter; the Social Democrat with a balloon hat; the centrum party man with a Jesuit cap, and the reactionary with a top hat and a monocle."
Did you ever see one of those shows, by the way?
A On page 89? I am unable to findthis text.
Q I probably have given you the wrong page. I have just been told it is page 154 of your text -- 155, rather.
program for these young people of yours. I wrote the preface, and as far as the context is concerned, I, of course, assume responsibility. I did not read this book in detail beforehand, and I do not wish to dispute that in the camp circus, as we called it, the political caricatures were presented. him thatshe saw this kind of a show. Do you know about that? I am going to show you that letter in a little while, just to show you that it did happen, and that your young peoplewrote to Streicher about it. July -- I think it is page 179 of your text -- the motto for the day is "Our service to Germany is divine service." And that was the slogan you used on other Sundays, and as the Tribunal has pointed out, on page 70 of your text you say that this ceremony for Sunday morning "does not bring any discussions or arguments about confessional points of view, but wants t o s trengthen life and men through the absolute conviction in the might of God and the ideology of the leader and his party, and strengthen then for the completion of great and small tasks." forget to mention Hitler or the leaders of the party, did you?
A Yes, it says here:
"It does not bring any discussions or arguments about confessional points of view, but wants to strengthen life and men through the absolute conviction in the right of God and the ideology of the leader and his party, and strengthen them for the completion of great and small tasks." answer given just a little while ago I did define my attitude.
Q Let's see if you do. In your book "Revolution of Education" on page 148, do you remember this statement:
"The flag of the Third Reich" -we'll begin the whole sentence:
"Service of Germany appears to us more genuine and sincere service of God. The flag of the Third Reich seems to us his flag and the Fuehrer of the people appeared as the savior appointed by him to rescue us from the calamity and peril into which the most pious parties of the defunct German Republic have already plunged us."
A Here I said: "We consider that we are serving the almighty when with our youthful strength we seek to make Germany united and great once more. We see nothing in the loyalty to our Homeland that could mean a contradiction of his Eternal will.On the contrary, service of Germany appears to as a more genuine and sincere service of God; and the flag of the Third Reich seems to us his flag, and the fuehrer of the people appears as the Saviour appointed by him to rescue us from the calamity and the peril into which the most pious parties of the defunct German republic have already plunged us." This refers to the "Zentrum" party. classified as a deification of the Fuehrer. In service to our country I saw service to the Almighty. Let's go on to something else so we can get through. I don't want to neglect to show you, if you care to be shown, that communication to Streicher. It has already been presented to the Tribunal by the British delegation, the British Prosecutor. I think it was read from, but not put in, I am told.
In any event, do you know about that, Mr. Witness? no you know about the letter that the boys and girls of the Youth Hostel at Grossmoellen wrote to Stricher on April of 1936, and they told him about seeing the Jew:
"Every Sunday night the leader presents a play about the Jews with his hand puppet show." here. Grossmoellen, was not an institution, not a part of the HJ, the Hitler Youth Movement. I believe we are concerned here with a Kindergarten of the NSV or some other organization. publishers of the "Sturmer" in order to use it for recruiting purposes.
Q Just a moment. Didn't you take over every youth Hostel in 1933?
youth hostel at Grossmoellen was not a part of the Hitler Youth Organization
A It says here "Jugend Heimstaette," rather than hostel. I an not familiar with the expression "Heimstaette." That must refer to a home of the NSV or a similar organization. We knew only youth homes, Jugen Heim, and hostels.
Q Well, doesn't it strike you as being strangely coincidental that in program for one of your youth comps you suggest a show which portrays a Jewi man with a great nose and ridicules his and teaches children to dislike him laugh at him, and that from a youth camp a youngster writes to Streicher say that she had the boys and girls saw a show?
A That isn't a Youth camp. that this letter was written, but I believe the connection is pulled in by the Hair, so to speak. The connection is very far afield. afield and pulled in by the hair.
A No. I dispute that this is an institution of the Hitler Youth. I believe actually we are concerned here with the NSV.
Q Well, maybe the explanation is that all the young people in Germany : one of those shows. But, in any event, I want to take up the last matter on the subject with you. tery, I believe it was in Austria while you were there, Kl sterneuburg. Do you remember?.
A This morning we discussed the Palace of Count Schwarzenberg. That was a monastery. It was the property of a private citizen.
Q Well, the document that your counsel, Dr. Sauter, referred to was R-1USA 578. It was a letter from Bermann to all Gauleiters, and it began by say valuable church properties had to be seized in Italy and in Austria. It was signed by Bormann. Then also on that document was a letter from Lammers, say that there had been some dispute as to whether the seized church property sh*--* go back to the Reich or should remain in the Gau. You remember that, don't you well, now, you seized a monastry down there, didn't you, in 1941, the Klester euburg? Klosterneuburg, You know hat I am referring to. I may mispronounced
A Yes. The well-known Klosterneuburg, the well-known Monastery. That served for the safekeeping of exhibits of our art historical museum. time?
A I am sorry, I cannot give you the details about this. I believe that there were very few people in the monastery, that the building was not being used to full capacity, and that we needed an expansion for our Hinterland for experimental purposes for the state vineyard school. I believe that this is the way it came about that this monastery was confiscated.
Q All right. I am going to ask that you look at the Document 3927-PS, a I wish you would remember that this morning you told the Tribunal that you stoped the confiscation of churches and church property in Austria. When you lo at this document I wish you would recall your testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you offer M-25 in evidence or not?
MR. DODD: I wish to do so, Mr. President. It is USA 861. And this one, 3927-PS, becomes USA 862. BY MR DODD: is dated the 22nd of January 1941. It is a letter a addressed to Dellbruegge in your organization in Vienna. which the City of Hamburg is also trying to get; and that he wants the monast Klosterneuburg, considered as the place for the Hitler School in Vienna. yesterday. you turn the page you will see it is dated the 13th of January. Bormann says is strictly confidential;
"It has been found out that the population does not show indignation if monasteries (convents) are used for what appears to be generally appropriate.
He goes on to say, "Hospitals, homes, educational institutions, Adolf Hitler Schools." wrote the letter on the 22nd.
Now, turn another page, and you will find a Gestapo report on the monast dated the 23rd of January 1941, addressed to your assistant, Dellbrugge.
I wi you would look where it says "Oral order of 23 January 1941." Apparently somebody in your organization, you or your assistants, rally asked the Gestap to get up a report on this monastery the very day that you wrote to Berlin asking that it be considered as a Hitler School. Gestapo report, but I ask you to turn over further. You will find where you wrote an order for the taking over of the monastery as an Adolf Hitler School on the 22nd of February 1941. I will show it to you if you like to see it, but photostat that you have.
Now, you framed up an excuse to seize that a mastery, didn't you, when y really wanted it for a Hitler School, and you didn't have any just rounds f seizing it. And you got the Gestapo to write a report. Then you never referred to the reason that the Gestapo framed up for you.
A I was chief of these schools. Naturally I placed the greatest stress and value in having this school established in Vienna. The thought which is expressed here is that Klosterneuburg, the monastery, was to be used as an Adolf Hitler School. I considered this thought but briefly, and perhaps mentioned it to Scharizer, but then I completely dropped this idea. This Klosterneuburg never was used as an Adolf Hitler School.
Q No. It never was turned back to the church people, either, was it?
A No. Out of this monastery, because the actual space was not sufficient for the large meetings in Vienna, we wanted an additional large museum which was to be open to the public. We started with this idea. We had many collections at our disposal, and put them there. Beyond that, we needed the strong cellars of this monastery for a place of safe-keeping for the many objects of art which we wanted and had to protect against bombing attacks. Adolf Hitler school was a thought entertained but briefly. I discussed it with one or more of my collaborators; then, however, I completely dropped this thought, first of all because it would have created very bad will if we had put an Adolf Hitler school into a space which had been church property before, and then also since we needed the monastery for other and more pressing reasons. unication from Bormann? when did you first discover that Bormann was so anti-religious and so anti-church as you told the Tribunal he was?
Q (Interposing) Just tell us when you found that out.
A I was just about to. His anti-religious attitude was shown most clearly by Bormann in the year 1943, but already beginning in the year 1937 he showed the first signs.
Q And this telegram from him was when ? 1941?
Q Mr. Witness, when did you first start to do business with Himmler?
Q (Interposing) Himmler?
A (Continuing) -- Himmler in 1929. That is the year I met him. In 1929 when I visited the party leadership, at that time he was the propaganda chief of the party, and that was our first meeting.
What I really wanted to know was when you and your youth groups started really to do business with him for the first time. And by "business" I mean arrangements such as the recruitment of young men into the Death's Head brigade of the SS. The agreement regarding the patrol service, the date of which I do not recollect at this moment, I believe was one of the first agreements which I concluded with him; and this was not an assurance of reinforcements for Death's head Units, but for police units. These were special troops to be at the disposal of the police. your youth organization to the SS? When was the last time that you remember this program's being effective?
A I did not artificially try to drive people into the SS. But I permitted the SS, just as I permitted the police, to recruit from among my youth.
Q I did not ask you that. I asked you when you would say was the latest date when you were effectively helping, at least, Himmler to get young candidates from the young people of Germany through your Hitler Youth Organization. I do not expect an exact date. Approximately? Army units. The SS and the Waffen SS carried on a very active recruitment among my youth which took place until the last days of the war, and I could do nothing to prevent this recruitment. of the war and the mid-days of the war, did you not? volunteered had to fight.
Q I was talking about something other than fighting. You knew what was going on in the East, and you knew who the guards were in the concentration camps, did you not?
I did not know that young men who volunteered to go into the Waffen SS were used to guard concentration camps. two of them yourself? fically for SS Death's Head troops. supervision of concentration camps or that it was being carried on through the Death's Head units. And aside from that, at that time, I saw the concentration camps to be something quite normal, as I testified this morning. that you found out about the extermination. And I want to talk to you about that a little bit, and ask you some questions, The first one is, How did you find out? Was it actually through this man Colin Ross?
A I said that I heard about these things through Colin Ross? that I could reach, because I wanted to find out something definite about these matters.
Q Really I asked you if, from any other source, did you find out? and you can answer that pretty simply. We know that you found out through Ross. Did you hear from anyone else what you found out?
THE PRESIDENT: I an sorry; I am not hearing.
THE WITNESS: I tried to have assurance and certainty-
THE PRESIDENT: Would you repeat that? The last thing I have is, he said he put questions to all sorts of persons he could find.
MR. DODD: Yes,sir. BY MR. DODD: way of the exterminations in the East?
A No. To all practical purposes, I could not get any definite knowledge.
A Most of the people did not have any information. They were not well in formed. I received anything that was positive and certain through the Warthe Gau. extermination of Jews, did you not/
Q (Interposing) Written reports, I mean. sent to the Reichs Defense Commissar for the attention of the completent official. And usually an expert in the department received the reports. They were transmitted to the inspector of the order police.
I have locked at the text which was submitted in Kaltenbrunner's case, but before then I never saw it.
Q You mean you did not know that it was arriving in your office?
A My office was the central office; it was not the office of the Reich Defense Commissar, and the affairs of the Reich Defense Commissar are the affairs handled by the Regierungspraesident. His expert concerned himself with the things coming in and going out every day. npt?
Q This was an SS report of a highly confidential nature, was it not? You were not just peddling this all ever Germany?
Q You got the 67th copy? to me, but they were sent to an expert, a Mr. Fischer, in this case.
Q And who was Mr. Fischer?
A I said this morning already that this name of Mr. Fischer does not mean anything to me. I assume that he was the special expert for Reich defense matters.
files.
MR. DODD: We ought to have a fall translation, Mr. President, because some of this we located too late. BY MR. DODD: from your files. And in there you will find -- and I will direct your attention to the page -- something I think will recall to your mind who Dr. Fischer is.
I think it is page 29. You will find the namesof persons to serve on the Reich Defense committee submitted; and you will find the name of Fischer, together with General Stuelpnagel, Major General Gauzia, Dr. Forster -- do you find that? This was your own Reich defense council before which you appeared from time to time, and with whom you met frequently. And I will show you documents on that, if you care to deny it.
A. Just a moment, please. Will you please repeat the page to me?
Q. Page 29; it is a memorandum dated the 28th of September, 1940.
Q. Do you find Fischer's name as one of thos suggested to your defense counsel? His is the last name, by the way, and his signature. He is the one that suggested the others to you.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, will you go a little bit more slowly?
MR. DODD: Yes.
A. He is mentioned here as the 20th name, "Regierungsrat Dr. Fischer, Expert for Reich Defense Matters." That means the expert for the Regierungspresident. Then, most probably I saw him at one meeting or the other. I take it that he kept the minutes. However, I have no personal recollection of this gentleman. I must dispute any recollection. I do not identify that name with anyone, but I assume that he was the one who received the mail coming in to the Reich Defense Commissar, and who kept the record. BY MR. DODD:
Q. All right.
A. He may have served in another capacity. He was of a rather low rank, and because of his junion status, he probably did not carry on any other functions.
Q. On page 31 of that same file you will find another reference to him, and your initials on the paper, at this time. It is the membership list of the Reichs Defense Committee. There are 20 persons on there, and the last name is Fischer's. At the bottom of the page are your initials, apparently approving the list. Do you see that?
A. Yes; I had to initial this list.
Q. And you approved the membership, did you not?
A. I do not wish to calim that if I were confronted with this man I would not recognize him. He seems to have been the official who kept the minutes. However, in this large circle of people who met at meetings of this kind, he did not come to my attention. I was not conscious of him. Only very few meetings of this type of the Reich Defense Council actually did taker place. This seems to me the decisive point, that I did not meet him personally, and he did not report personally.
Q. How could you fail to meet him? You met regularly in 1940 with this Reichs Defense Committee. We have some documents here, and I will be glad to show them to you, showing exactly what you said before that Committee.
A. Yes, he probably was the one who kept the minutes of the meetings.
Q. Well surely, then, you saw him on some occasions, certainly, between 1940, the date of these files, and 1942, the date of the SS reports on the exterminations. Apparently he was with you for two years before the first report that we have, which is dated 1942, and he was one of twenty on your Council.
A. I believe I must describe just how this Reichs Defense Committee was made up. This was a circle of the leading commanding generals of the Army and the Luftwaffe. There were several Gauleiters, and also present were the people who are mentioned here, Dr. Putt, the representative of the Fueherueng Staff Werkschaft, of the economic staff, and all the others who are listed here. In this large circle of people, this circle which I greeted on arrival, there was an official who kept the records and the minutes, who was among the many, many officials in my office. very infrequently. Dr. Fischer did not report to me all the time, and he did not show me the minutes of these sessions, but the Regierungspresident was the one who reported to me.
Q. Do you think that Heinrich Himmler or Reinhart Heydrich were sending these reports to inferior people around Germany in these Gaus about the exterminations in the East?
A. If these reports had been meant for me, they would have been sent to me directly. At any rate, I said today that I do not dispute having had knowledge of the shooting of Jews in the East, but at a later period of time, and I mentioned it in that connection. However, the reports themselves were not in my hand. If these reports had been before me, they would have had a certain notation, which I would recognize immediately.
Q. Well, let's see. Of course they are addressed to you, to the attention of Fischer.
I am going to move on a little bit. Now I am going to tell you that you got weekly reports. You haven't seen these. What do you say to that?
A. Weekly reports?
Q. Yes.
A. I received many, many from many different places.
Q. No, I am talking about one kind of report. I am talking about the reports from Heydrich and Himmler.
Q Well, you had better take a look. We have 55 of them, for 55 weeks. They are all here, and they run consecutively, and Dr. Fischer is not involved in these. Each one bears the stamp of your office having received it, and the date that it was received. to the Jews in the East. over at this time -- emanated from the Chief of the Security Police to the Office of the Reichs Defense Commissar. In the first document I can see that it is not signed or initialed by me; it shown the signature of the Regierungspresident. I did not receive these reports; otherwise my signature or sign would have been be there.
Q Dr. Mell Bruegge was the man who received them, according to the note, and he was your chief assistant. Incidentally, I think we ought to make this clear to the Tribunal, that both of your chief assistants were SS Brigade Fuehrers, were they not?
A I would have mentioned that anyway, that Dr. Mell Bruegge was one of the confidants of Himmler.
Q And he was your chief assistant, that is the point I am making. And your other chief assistant was also an SS Brigade Fuehrer. wish to accuse me of. there is one thing I do want to ask you.
Were you pretty friendly with Heydrich? an invitation to me as President of the Southeast Company. He invited me, and I did accept. However, I did not have a close, personal contact with Heydrich. terrorizing Czechoslovakia? was in Prague, wanted to carry out a policy of accommodation, especially as it applied to Czech workers.
In him I did not see an exponent of a policy of terror. Of course, I have no practical knowledge of the incidents which took place in Czechoslovakia; I only visited there once or twice.
Q You sent a telegram to "Dear Martin Bormann" when Heydrich was assassinated; do you remember that -- the man who was, I understand, not in your good standing in 1942? Do you remember when Heydrich was assassinated by some Czech patriots in Prague?
Q Do you remember what you did when you heard about it?
A No, I can't remember exactly.
"Reichsleiter Bormann; Berlin, Party Chancellery; express, urgent, immediate attention.
"Dear Martin Bormann:
"I request that the following be submitted to the Fuehrer.
"Knowing the Czechoslovak population and its attitude in Vienna as well as in the Protectorate, I would draw your attention to the following.
"The enemy powers and British cliques around Benesch have for a long time felt bitterly regarding the loyalty to be observed generally among the Czechoslovak workers and their contribution to German war economy. They are seeking for a means to play off the Czechoslovak population and the Reich against each other. The attempt of Heydrich was without doubt planned in London. The British arms of the assailant point to parachuted agents. London hopes by this attempt to induce the Reich to take draconian measures for the purpose of creating a resistance movement among Czechoslovak workers. In order to prevent the world thinking that the population of the Protectorate is in opposition to Hitler, these acts must immediately be branded as of British authorship. A sudden and violent air attack on a British cultural town would be the most efficacious, and the world would have to be informed thereof under the headline 'Revenge for Heydrich'. That alone should induce Churchill to desist immediately from plotting the outrages which have begun to occur in Prague. The Reich retaliates for the attack at Prague by a counter-attack. It is proposed to give the following information to the press tomorrow regarding the attempt on Heydrich's life."