a fact that your responsibility for young people in Germany under the national socialists was fundamentally concerned with making really good national socialists out of them, in the sense of making them finatical political followers. citizens in the national socialite state. tical policies? youth in the following of Hitler. I do not deny that.
Q All right. And while you said to us that you did not have the first responsibility for the educational system, I am sure you would not deny that for all of the other activities with which young people may be concerned, you did have first responsibility? sibility. these young people were those who were politically reliable in keeping with Hitler's opinions and beliefs and the teachings of national socialism? genous. A large part of that teaching body belonged to a generation which had not been educated in the national socialist sense, nor adhered to national socialism. The young teachers passed through national socialist education. people under the public educational system of Germany were not at all times under the guidance of those who were politically re liable, certainly after the first year or two of the administration of Hitler and his followers, are you?
A Would you please repeat the question? I did not quite understand. doubt in your mind or in ours that the public school system of Germany was supervised, for the most part, at least, by people who were politically sound in so far as national socialism was concerned.
A That I could not quite confirm. Education and educational administration in Germany were under the supervision of Reichsminister Rust, who -- and that is a fact -- for reasons of ill health was very little concerned with his official duties. In the administration of education, many thousands of older employees were still employed who had been employed a long time before the motional socialist state had functioned, and were maintained. they had been in office. They all took an oath to Hitler, did they not?
A That is correct; as far as they were employees, they all took the oath of employees. ple in Germany, did he not?
A That I do not believe. I believe that the influence of my co-defendant Rosenberg on youth is exaggerated and not recognized correctly. Rosenberg suddenly had some influence on many people who were concerned with philosophical problems, and were in a position to understand his writings. was the way of the Hitler Youth, did you not?
Q (Interposing) Never mind the why's and wherefore's. Did you say it or not?
Q When was it? youth there. But later I led the youth myself in an entirely different path.
Q We will got around to that a little later. But in any event, on this occasion in Berlin, when you had a large group of your youth leaders present, you were doing your best, at least, to have them understand that the way of Rosenberg was the way that they should follow? different instructions from me.
Q Well. I say that may be so. We will get around to those different instructions, but on this occasionaand at that time, insofar as you were concerned, you wanted them to understand that they were to follow Rosenberg's way, didn't you? at that time. That was the question of denominational youth organizations. On this point Rosenberg and I agreed, whereas on many other points we differed. That was the point to which that statement referred.
Q Rosenberg's way certainly wasn't the way of young people remaining faithful to their religious obligations or teachings, was it?
Q What do you mean? You don't know? a statement which expressed that young people should become disloyal to their religious convictions.
Q Well, I don't know that he ever said it that way either, but I think you do know perfectly well, as do many other people who were outside of Germay through all of these years, that Rosenberg was a violent opponent of organized religious institutions. You don't deny that, do you? one cannot formulate it like that. Rosenberg has in no way tried to influence youth in the sense that it should leave religious denominations.
Q And later on, actually, aren't you willing to now say that later on, and perhaps at that time, in a secret and indirect sort of way you played Rosenberg's game by arranging youth affairs at hours when church ceremonies were going on? church. During those years, 1933-34, my main concern was the denominational youth organizations. That I have explained yesterday.
Q I know. You garbled them up, and they all had to join your organization sooner or later. But I am not talking about that now. What I am trying to say--and I think you must agree--is that for a considerable period of time you made it really impossible for young people of certain religious beliefs to attend their church services, because you scheduled your youth affairs at which attendance was compulsory.
Q You say that is not so? Didn't the Catholic Bishops time out of mind publicly object to this very sort of thing, and don't you know it as well as I do? that you were scheduling your youth affairs on Sunday mornings when their clerics were holding services? clergyment approached either me or complained in public that their spiritual care was impaired by the activities of the Hitler Youth, and that is why I passed that final regulation, which can be seen in the document which my counsel has submitted to the Court yesterday.
Q Well, I don't think that is altogether an answer, and perhaps I can help your memory by recalling for you that your organization specifically provided that these young people who were attending church on Sunday could not go in uniform. That was a very purposeful thing, wasn't it, because they couldn't get out of church and get to their Youth attendance that youths in uniform could go to church.
Q Well, I am not going to argue about it with you. Your answer is that you don't recall any frequent and strong criticism and objection from church men about this particular Sunday morning program. Is that the way you want to leave it?
A I do not want to say it like that. There were periods of great tension, periods of serious disputes, such as in youth organizations there is a storm, period, and later all these things were regulated. done with the young people of Germany during the years over which you had control of them, you certainly did not prepare them militarily in any sense, in any sense ordinarily accepted as being military; is that so?
Q Well, now, let's see. What was the name of your personal press agent, or consultant, if you prefer that term?
A For the longest period of time my press agent was a Mr. Kaufmann. interrogatory from him which will be submitted. I assume you know about that, don't you? answers which Kaufmann gave.
Q Well, you know the questions he asked, don't you?
A I don't remember them in detail. You asked him if he ever put out any press releases without your authority. You asked him if he wasn't your personal press consultant. And you asked him if it wasn't true that you personally gave him the directive for what you wanted published in the press, and particularly in the youth press. Do you remember those questions?
A (No response)
Q But you don't know the answers; is that it?
A (No response) September of 1942 an article about the young people and the youth of Germany?
Q Well, I think that you had better have a look at it. It is Document 3930-PS. That becomes USA 853.
THE PRESIDENT: What number did you say, US. -
MR. DODD: 853, sir. BY MR. DODD: teletype message, "Reich Governor in Vienna." You will see at the top it was received by you on the 10th of September 1942, and it sets out the subject for the body of this article for the editorial staff of the "Schwarzes Korps," That was the SS magazine. that a high ranking officer who had come back to Berlin from Sevastapol said that the youngsters who had been seen some four years ago in short pants marching through German cities singing, "Yes the flag is more than Death," were the 19-year-olds who took that city of Sevastopol. they promised in singing; and that the National Socialist Movement had brought up a young generation, filling them with faith and self-denial, and so on. Then the rest of it goes on in substance to say that there were people who objected to your program at the time that you were trying to make these youngsters stron something to do with making them the good 19-year-old fighters who took Sevasto pol; isn't that so? You are clamming credit, I say, in this article for having produced this kind of 19-year-old boys.
Q Well, you do now. You can talk about it, certainly.
A That is what I just wanted to do. Mr. Kaufmann at that time had just returned from the Eastern Front, and under the impression of that which he had experienced out there he wrote down what we road, in this article, which is quite impossible for me to read right now.
Q Well, it isn't very long. Really I read what I think are the most important parts of it insofar as you are concerned. in one single sentence in that entire article.
Q Oh, I know. I am simply asking if it isn't a fact that you were claiming credit in this article for having had something to do with the fact that these 19-year-old boys were such good fighters in Russia. That is all I am asking you. become good citizens, and that I wanted then to become good patriots. that they were such good fighters. Now, there is no trick in this question. It is merely preliminary, and I want to get on, but I think you might say yes. Incidentlly, this song, "The flag is more than death," was a song that you wrote, wasn't it?
A The "Flag Song of the Youth," which I wrote, had the text, "The flag is more than death." That is true. in the formative days before the war statrted in a song book.
AA great number of song books were published. I don't know all of them for youth -
Q No, I don't either, but I am asking if it isn't a fact that you did publish song books for young people. well as the press office, have published such books. Of course I did not look each individual song which was published there, but in these song books I beli on the whole only such songs were published which were sung by the youth.
Q All right. We have some extracts from one of your song books, and there is only one that I wish to refer to. Do you remember the one "Forward, Forward, Forward," that you wrote, by the way, another one that you wrote. Do you remember that song?
A "Forward, Forward, Forward," is the flag song of the youth.
Q You wrote it? words and phrases for young people with respect to their military duty?
A The flag song of the youth? I can't find that.
Q Well, words, like this; "We are the future soldiers. Everything which opposes us will fall before our fists. Fuehrer, we belong to you," and so on. Do you remember that?
A. I have not said "we are the future soldiers", such as I hear now in English, but "we are the soldiers of the future".
Q. All right.
A. "The soldiers of the future", "the bearers of the future".
Q. All right, but that is another one of your songs, isn't it?
A. That is a revolutionary song, which emanated from the fighting period; it is not concerned, perhaps with the war between Germany and other powers, but the struggle which we were fighting inside the country in order to carry throug our revolution.
Q. All right, we will see. Do you remember the one,"Can you see the Dawn in the East?" DO you remember that song?
A. That is not one of my songs.
Q. It is one of the songs in the Hitler Youth Song Book, is it not?
A. That is an old song of the SA from the years 1923-24.
Q. Well that may be. I am only asking you it it isn't a fact that it was in your official song book for your young people.
A. Yes
Q. It is in that song that you villify the Jews, is it not?
A That I do not remember any more. I would have to see the song.
A. Well, I can show it to you, but perhaps if you recall it we can save a little time. Don't you remember that the second stanza says, "For many years the people were enslaved and misguided, traitors and Jews had the upper hand."? Do you remember those words in that song? "People to arms" is the next one.
A. Yes, but I don't know any more whether that was published in a song book of the Youth -- meaning the Hitler Youth.
Q. I can assure you that it was, and if you would like to see it, we have it here.
A. I can assure you that it was, and if you would like to see it, we have it here.
A. It is a very well known song of the SA, which was sung by the youth, and therefore it is also in the song book of the youth.
Q. All right, that is all I wanted to find out. I don't care where it originated.
It is the kind of song you had in your song book for young people.
A. I should like to state one more thing. The song book which I have here was published in 1933.
Q. Yes?
A. I do not believe that the youth organization which I have built up can be judged only according to the year 1933.
Q. I don't suggest that either, but we found it in 1945.
A. Later we published other song books, with quite different songs.
Q. Yes, I am going to get around to those in a minute.
That song book was 3764-PS, 854, USA. It has just been called to my attention that the last phrase in that fourth stanza says: "Germany awake. Death to Jewry. People to arms."
A. One moment please, Where is that?
Q. In the English text, in the fourth stanza. I don't know where it would be; it is on page 19, I am told, of the German text. Have you found it?
A. No.
Q. Well, perhaps it is the wrong document. In any event, we will find it for you. However, you remember the song, do you not? You don't deny that it says "Death to the Jews", and so on, do you, in that song?
A. That is the song that starts with the words, "Can you see the dawn in the East?"
Q. That is right.
A. Yes.
Q. That is all I wanted to know.
A. That song is not contained in this book.
(A book was submitted, to the witness.)
Q. We have quite a few of your song books here.
A. Yes, but there is a great difference. This book, where the song is not contained, is an official publication of the Reich Youth Leadership Office. As I have said, we do not find the song there. However, it is in a song book which was published by a music publishing firm, Tonner, in Cologne, and it just has the name, "Songs of the Hitler Youth". However, it is not an official collection of the Reich Youth Leadership. That publishing firm may have published such books in Germany.
Q. All right, I will accept that, but certainly you won't deny that the book was used, will you? That is all we are trying to establish.
A. That I don't know. I don't know whether that book was used by the Hitler Youth.
Q. Do you know that the one in which it is contained was published by you.
(No response)
Well, in any event, I would like to point this out to you. I am not claiming, or trying to suggest to you by questions, that any one of these songs in themselves made young people in Germany move or fight for war; but rather, what I am trying to show is that, as distinguished from the testimony that you gave here yesterday, you were doing somthing more than just giving these boys and girls games to play.
A. It could not be seen from my statements of yesterday that we only played games. Besides such a song, there are numerous others.
Q. Yes, I know, but these are the ones we are concerned with right now. Do you remember the songs, "Unfurl the blood-soaked banners", "Drums sound throughout the land"?
A. These are all songs of the Wandervogel and other youth organizations. They are songs which were sung in the time of the Republic.
Q. Just a minute.
A. They are songs which had nothing definite to do with our period.
Q. Do you think that anybody, in the days of the Republic, was singing Hitler Youth marches?
A. What kind of a song is that? I don't know it.
Q. That is the one, "Drums sound throughout the land". Don't you remember any of these songs, actually?
A. Of course, I know quite a number of these songs. However, the essential songs, or the mass of songs, emanate from the old Zupfgeigen Hansel, and other youth organizations. The youth were always singing songs of the HJ; that goes without saying.
Q. Yes, I don't doubt that they did, but wherever they emanated from, you were using them with these young people. And that one, "Drums sound throughout the Land", you wrote yourself; isn't that so?
A. "Drums sound throughout the land"? Yes, I believe I have written such a song.
Q. All right; that certainly doesn't have a very ancient origin then, does it?
A. Long before the seizure of power.
Q. You also recall, perhaps, that on one occasion General Fieldmarshal von Blomberg wrote an article for the Hitler Year Book. Do you remember that?
A. No.
Q. Well, it wasn't so very long ago. It was in 1938. I suppose you read the Year Book of your organization for that year at tint time, at any rate.
A. That may be assumed, but I cannot remember what Fieldmarshal von Blomberg wrote for it.
A. Well, all right.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, I believe you are passing away from these songs
MR. DODD: Yes, sir; I was.
THE PRESIDENT: But have you offered in evidence yet 3764-PS?
MR. DODD: Yes, sir; I offered it as 854.
THE PRESIDENT: What was 3763?
MR. DODD: No, I am sorry, 3764 is 854, and 3763 -- I am sorry, it is 855.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, 855. BY MR. DODD:
Q. I would like you to look at this document, which is number 3755-PS. I think it is on page 134 of the text that you have, Mr. Witness; and on pages 148 to 150 you will find an article, "Education for War of the German Youth", or rather, it says: "The work 'Education for War of the German Youth', by Dr. Stellrecht, contains a slogan of General Field Marshal von Blomberg, in which the following passage is quoted." And then it goes on to give the quotation. Do you find that? "The fighting spirit is the highest virtue of a soldier." And so on.
Have you found the quotation of Blomberg's? That is what I want to know.
A. Yes.
Q. Then the article by Stellrecht is also contained there, after the quotation.
A. Yes.
Q. When you move down a few lines you will see this sentence: "Therefore, it is a strong and unyielding demand which the General Field Marshal already puts to the young body of men marching in the formations of the Hitler Youth", and so on.
In those days, in 1938, Mr. Witness, you were at least thinking in terms of future military service, and so was Field Marshal von Blomberg, with respect to the Hitler Youth. That is the point I am trying to make.
A. We had a State with compulsory military training.
Q. I know.
A. And it goes without saying that as educators we were also concerned with bringing youth to the highest degree of physical capacity in order to make sure that they would be goo soldiers.
Q. You weren't doing any mere than, that? Is that what you want this Court to understand?
A. What we did further in the way of marksmanship training, in crosscountry sports, and in the training of special units, I described yesterday.
MR. DODD: That is USA 356, Mr. President.
Q. Yes, I know you told us yesterday that whatever else it might have been, it certainly was not any kind of military training.
That man Stellrecht was associated with you, was he not?
A. Dr. Stellrecht held the office of physical training in the Youth -meaning the Hitler Youth -- under Reich Sport Leader Schammer-Osten. That office was one of 21 offices within the Youth Leadership.
Q. He was associated with you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have also used something from him as part of your defense; it is in your document book. Do you know about that?
A. Yes, it is a statement which Dr. Stellrecht made, in which he speaks about the education and training for defense, or the physical training of the youth, and where he says that not a single boy in Germany is trained with weapons of war.
Q. I know that, and therefore I want you to look at another statement that he made on another date.
MR. DODD: That is document 1992-PS, Mr. President, and we offer it as USA-439.
Q. Do you remember when he made the speech to the military men in January of 1937 while he was affiliated with your Hitler Youth Organization? Do you know the speech to which I refer?
consider myself responsible for any statement which he may have made there. ferently. At any event, I ask you whether or not you were aware of and know about the speech and will you tell us whether you do know about it before you look at it? You do know the speech I am talking about, don't you? spoke on a national political course of the armed forces but it was possible that I was informed about it. for it before you knew what he said.
A That, I did not want to express. Between Dr. Stellrecht and myself, there arose, especially on account of a certain tendency which he had concerning the defense training, there arose difficulties and differences because I felt that he emphasized his office too strongly among the other offices and further differences arose which finally led to his dismissal from the Reich youth leadership. and I wish now you would look at page -- well, I have it on page 3 of the English and it is page 169 of the text that you have and it begins at the very bottom of the English page, and the paragraph reads;
"In regard to work with pure military education up to the last detail of training and which, with, on mutual consent includes a foreword and a preface by the Reichsminister of War and the Reich Youth Leader."
And then the next paragraph: "The basic idea of this work is to present to the boy what fits into the particular stage of his development." and so forth. And I want you to come to the sentence that says: "For that reason no boy is given a military weapon, simply because it does not make sense from the point of view of development. But, on the other hand, it makes sense to give him practice guns of smaller caliber. Just as there are military exercises which fit only adult men, there are exercises which are better tackled at the age of a boy."
last paragraph, page 170 of your text, you will find in the next to the last paragraph that your Dr. Stellrecht says, "This is a picture of the goal of great education which starts with the playful training of the boy in the terrain and completes itself in the training in the Armed Forces." and I think it is page 171 of your text, the next to the last paragraph, in talking about the hiking trip, he says that: "....has still another purpose ..... because it is the only way in which the boy can get acquainted with his fatherland for which he will have to fight one day." attention to page six of the English text and page 174 and 175 of your text. In the last paragraph of the English text, you will find this sentence which says: "All training, therefore, culminates in training in shooting. It cannot be emphasized enough and because shooting is a matter of practice, one cannot start too early. In the course of years we want to achieve that a gun feels just as natural in the hands of a German boy as a pen." and page 176 of your text. Your Dr. Stellrecht says more about shooting and how it "meets with the desire of a boy;" and then he goes on to say that ".....there is special training for the new replacement generation in the Airforce, Navy and motorized troops. The training course for this has been established with the competent authorities in the Armed Forces. In addition, there is training communications on a broad basis and, in the country, cavalry training." the next to the last paragraph of the English text, where I want to call your attention to this sentence, or it is two from thelast paragraph in the English text: "Military education and 'ideological' education belong together." The English text says "philosophical" but I think it is a mistranslation and actually in German it is "ideological". And you see the sentence that says in the next paragraph: "The education of youth has to take care that the knowledge and the principles, according to which the state and the Armed Forces of our time have been organized and which support them, enter so thoroughly into the thoughts of the individual that they never again can be taken away and remain directiongiving principles through life."
And the last paragraph of that speech, Mr. Witness, I wish you would look at because I think you used the term "playful" yesterday, if I am not mistaken, and Dr. Stellrecht, anyway, a little earlier in his speech. Here is what he said to the military men that day. "Gentlemen, you can see for yourself that the tasks of present German youth education have gone far beyond the 'playful'"-- "playful" in quotation marks.
Are you sure, now, that you didn't have any kind of a program for military training in your youth organization? a whole in order to be able to answer, that Dr. Stellrecht, to say it mildly, considered himself very important there. The importance of Dr. Stellrecht for the education of the youth and the importance of his office within the youth -- meaning Hitler youth -- was definitely not as much as he presnts it here before a course in the armed forces. I have said before already that between himand myself, on account of his exaggerations, particularly because the training in shooting and that which he called "military training" was exaggerated by him, overestimated, and that led to differences which in turn led to his dismissal from the Reich youth leadership. He wasone of the many heads of offices and the significance of his activity is not as large as he wants to describe it here with his words. I believe that I have explained yesterday what large number of tasks were given to us and I believe I was able to explain also the proportion of the pre-military training such as direct courses to the other forms of education. It is also clearly expressed in that document that one did not want to parallel military education, which I said yesterday. If he says that every German boy should learn to handle the gun just as well as a pen, then that is a manner of expression with which I cannot identify myself. that we brought it out in view of the fact that you have, yourself, offered before this Tribunal, a statement by Stellrecht in your own document.
You are aware of that, of course, aren't you? You want, of course, to have us understand Stellrecht is reliable when you quote him but he is not reliable when we quote him, is that it?
A That, I will not say at all. He is a specialist for the training in marksmanship and outdoor sports, and, of course, he took his tasks such as can be understood as the most important in youth training. Probably another man in his place would have considered the present work or cultural work or occupational competition contests as the most important in youth training. Probably another man in his place would have considered the present work or cultural work or occupational competition contests as the most important thing. At any rate, for the education of German youth, not that, was essential which Stellrecht mentioned in a course for soldiers but that what I said before the youth leaders. you wrote a preface for his book, didn't you? which that preface was written. in and published in Germany but not only made thespeech but was put out in pamphlet form, wasn't it? you. I think you will see that. Well, in any event, we will pass along. You told the Tribunal yesterday that the statement in the "Voelkischer Beobachtor", attributed to Hitler, on the 21st day of February 1938, was somewhat of a mystery to you; you did not know where he got his figures from. Did you understand what I said, Mr. Witness? that quotation from Hitler in the "VoelkischerBeobachter?"
Q What is wrong with those figures?
the text which I have, and which in the translated text there are errors, most probably he has received these figures from the office of Dr. Stellrecht; that is what I assume and, however, that which is said about armored troops, in my opinion, he had added himself because of the consequence of some ten thousand youth getting driving lessons, from that one can draw the conclusion they had been trained for the armored force, that is erroneous.
Q Well, you see, he didn't say so. You understand it was your Fuehrer who said so in February, 1938, and what I asked you was that I wish perhaps We can go through it and you can tell the Tribunal where they are in error and to what extent. Hitler said,according to thepress, that your naval Hitler youth comprised 45,000 boys. Would you say that figure was too large and a together untrue?
Q That is correct?
Q You said the motor Hitler youth, 60,000 boys. What do you say about that figure? 55,000 members of the Jungvolk were trained in gliding for group meetings. What do you say about that figure?