of being melted, down. You saw that. Practically the last scene in that film showed something that locked as if it had been in the process of being melted, did it not? You saw that?
Would you answer me, please, yes or no? Did you see it?
A I cannot answer correctly to this. I do not know whether they were melting it down. I have no knowledge of these technical matters. However, it is completely news to me, and it has not been known to me until now that the Reichsbank did ay melting down of metals. That is technical work.
Q Now, let us see what your assistant, Mr. Puhl, says about that, the man who you told us yesterday was a very credible gentleman, and whom you asked permission to call as a witness in your behalf. I am holding in my hand an affadavit executed by him on the third day of May, 1946, at Baden-Baden, Germany.
"EMIL P U H L, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
1. My name is EMIL P U H L. I was born on 28 August 1889 in Berlin, Germany. I was appointed a member of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank in 1935 and Vice President of the Reichsbank in 1939, and served in these positions continuously until the surrender of Germany.
2. In summer of 1942, WALTER F U N K, the President of the Reichsbank and the Reich Minister of Economics had a conversation with me and later with Mr. Friedrich Wilhelm, who was a member of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank. FUNK told me that he had arranged with Reichsfuehrer H I M M L E R to have the Reichsbank received on safe deposit gold and jewels for the SS. F U N K directed that I should work out the arrangements with P O H L, who, as head of the Economic Section of the SS was in charge of the administration of the economic aspects of the concentration camp program.
3. I asked FUNK what the source was of the gold, jewels, banknotes, and other articles to be turned over by the SS. F U N K replied that it was confiscated property from the Eastern occupied territories but that I should ask no further questions. I protested against the Reichsbank handling this material. F U N K stated that we were to go ahead with the arrangements for handling the material, and that we were to keep the matter absolutely secret.
4. I arranged subsequently with one of the responsible officials in charge of the cash and vault departments for receiving the material, and reported the matter to the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank at its next meeting. P O H L of the Economic Section of the SS, on the same day telephoned me and asked if I had been advised of the matter. I said I would not discuss it by telephone. He came to see me and reported that the SS had some jewelry on hand for delivery to the Reichsbank for safe keeping. I arranged with him for delivery and from then on deliveries were made from time to time, from August 1942 over the following years.
5. The material deposited by the SS included jewelry, watches, eye glass frames, dental gold and other gold items in great abundance taken from Jews, concentration camp victims and other persons by the SS. This was brought to our knowledge by SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash and who obtained in this connection theassistance of the Reichsbank personnel with F U N K's approval and knowledge.
In addition to jewels and gold and other such items the SS also turned over banknotes, currency and securities to the Reichsbank to be handled in the usual legal procedure established for such items. As far as the jewelry and gold were concerned, F U N K told me that H I M M L E R and von K R O S I C the Reich Minister of Finance had reached an agreement that the gold and similar material was on deposit for the account of the Reich and that the proceeds resulting fromthe sale thereof would be credited to the Reich Treasury.
6. From time to time, in the course of my duties, I visited the vaults of the Reichsbank and observed what was in storage. F U N K, in the course of his duties, also visited the vaults from time to time.
7. The Golddiscont Bank, at the direction of F U N K, also established a revolving fund which finally reached 10 to 12 million reichsmarks for the use of the Economic Section of the SS to finance production of materials by concentration camp labor in factories operated by the SS. that the statements made herein are true to the best of my knowledge and belief."
Document No. 3944-PS
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I would like to offer this affidavit as U.S.A. Exhibit 846 and the film as U.S.A. Exhibit 845. BY MR. DODD:
Q Now, Mr. Witness, having heard this affidavit from a close associate and your brother director on the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank, and the man who you admitted yesterday was a credible and truthful man, what do you now say to this Tribunal about your knowledge of what was going on between your bank and the SS?
A I declare that this affidavit by Mr. Puhl is not true. About the entire matter regarding these gold deposits, I spoke to Mr. Puhl at most three times, and I believe only twice. Regarding valuable stones and jewelry I never exchanged words with Puhl at all. It is incredible to me that a man who certainly functions, also in his talk, with the SS -that is, Mr. Puhl, -- now tries to put the blame on me.
request that Mr. Puhl be called here, and that in my presence he declare in all detail when, where, and how he has spoken to me about these different items, and to what extent I told him what to do. other deliveries from concentration camps. I have never spoken to Mr. Puhl. I can only say again what I said at the beginning, that Mr. Puhl once talked to me about the fact that a gold deposit had arrived at the SS. I remember it now; I did not pay too much attention to the entire matter. I remember that, urged by him, I spoke to the Reichsfuehrer about whether the Reichsbank could utilize these items. He agreed. But at no time did he speak to the Reichsfuehrer about jewelry and valuable stones and watches.
I only spoke of gold at all times. Whatever Puhl states about a financingthis goes back a number of years -- I know M. Puhl visited me one day and said that for certain factories of the SS he was supposed to give a credit and somebody was negotiating with him about the matter. I asked him, "Is this credit secure? Do we get interest?" He said, "Yes, we can get then a credit from the Dresdner Bank." I said "Fine, do that". After that I never heard anything more about this matter. It is news to me how high this credit is, that it was kept in the gold discount bank. I don't remember it, but it is entirely possible. However, I never had any more words with Mr. Puhl about this credit, which he had given to factories. He always spoke about factories and this had been a bank credit which had been given by a private bank. I remember I asked him once "Has this credit been repaid?" That was a year later. He said,"No, it has not been repaid yet." That is all I know about these matters.
Q All right. Now, what do you know about this -- one part of the affidavit you have not considered. What do you know about the last part that said you established a revolving fund for the SS for the building of factories near the concentration camps? Do you remember? I read it to you. Puhl says: "The Reichsbank, at the direction of Funk, established a revolving bank which finally reached ten to twelve million Reichsmark for the use of the economic section of the SS to finance production of materials by concentration camp labor in factories owned by the SS." Do you admit that you did that?
A Yes, that is what I just mentioned, that Mr. Puhl spoke to me around 1939 or 1940, saying that gentlemen from the economic section of the SS had spoken to him regarding a credit which until that time had been established in the Dresdner Bank and which they would now like to have from the Reichsbank. I asked Mr. Puhl, "Will we get interest" He said "Yes." "Is the credit secure?" He said "Yes." and so I said "Go ahead and --"
A Otherwise I know nothing about it. That is all I know about it. film, didn't you, from the SS? The bank was paid for carrying on its part of this program?
of more than three years from the SS for handling these materials which they turned over to you? receive payment? How could you help knowing? then to me. I did not know anything about any payment from the SS.
Q What would you say if I told you that Mr. Puhl said that the bank d receive payment over the years and that there were some 77 shipments of materials such as you saw here this morning? Do you say that is untrue or not, or do you agree with it? things. I know nothing about it. know about 77 such shipments and about a transaction that you were being paid to handle? Do you think that is a likely story? cannot have known about them, and I declare again definitely that I was not informed about these details. I was told only about a gold deposit by the SS, which was brought to us. Later on it was called a delivery by the SS. And abo the credit transactions. That is all I know about these matters.
Q Let me tell you something that may help you a little bit. As a matter of fact, your bank sent memoranda to people concerning this material from time. to time, and I think you know about it, don't you? You made up memoranda of what you had on hand and whom you were transferring it to. Are you familiar with such memoranca? see if it refreshes your memory any. That is PS 3948. Pawn Brokerage in Berlin, and it is dated 15 September 1942.
document, but as you can see on there, the memorandum says "We submit to you the following valuables with the request for the best possible utilization." Then you list 247 rings of platinum of silver, 154 gold watches, 207 ear rings 1600 ear rings, 13 brooches with stones. I am just skipping along. I am not reading all of them. 324 silver wrist watches, 12 silver candelabras, and spoons, forks and knives, and then, if you follow down here quite a way, 160 diverse dentures, partly gold, 187 pearls, four stones said to be diamonds. And that is signed "Deutsche Reichsbank, Hauptkasse, and the signature is illegible". Perhaps if you look at the original, you might tell us who signed that.
Q You have the original? signature of one of your workers.
A It says "a draft" and somebody from our cashier's office signed it. I do not know the signature.
Q Somebody from your bank, was it not?
A Yes, from the cashier's department. were sending lists out to municipal pawn brokers without it ever coming to your attention?
A I know nothing about these events at all. They can only be explained in this manner: That seemingly things were delivered.
to the Reichsbank which they were not supposed to keep. is dated four days later, September 19, 1942, USA Exhibit 848. Now, you will see this is a memorandum concerning the conversion of notes, gold, silver and jewelry in favor of the Reich Minister of Finance, and it also says that it is "a partial statement of values received by our 'Precious Metal' (Edelmetall' )." Again I think it is unnecessary to read it all. You can look at it and read it, but the last two paragraphs, after telling what the shipments contain as they arrived on 26 August 1942, the last two paragraphs say, "Before we turn over the total amount taken in to date to the Reichshauptkasse, account of the Reich Minister of Finance, we beg to be informed under what initial this and later amounts should be disposed of.
"It might further be of advantage to call the attention of the responsible office of the Reich Ministry of Finance in time to the amounts to be transferred from the Deutsche Reichsbank."
Again that is signed "Deutsche Reichsbank, Hauptkasse," and there is a stamp on there that says, "Paid by cheek Berlin, October 27, 1942, Hauptkasse." believe I am able to give an explanation, and that is on the basis of testimony given here by witnesses who came from concentration camps. The witness Ohlendorf, if I remember correctly, and another one, have testified that the valuables which had been taken from the inmates of concentration camps were turned over, were supposes to be turned over to the Reich Finance Minister. Now, I assume that the technical procedure was that these things first were sent to the Reichsbank by a mistake. The Reichsbank, however, as I repeat again and again, could do nothing with pearls, jewelry, and similar items which are mentioned here, could not use these items and, therefore, has turned over those items to the Reich Finance Minister of they were used to the account of the Reich Finance Minister.
In other words, this merely is an accounting by the Reichsbank for the Reich Minister. That is, I believe, the meaning of this document. unfortunate people who were exterminated in these camps had their possessions turned over to the Reich Finance Minister. I believe he testified to that effect here. Now, you also-
A That is what I heard here. These things were now to me. However, I did not know-detail. With them in such detail or you did not know they dealt with them at all? I think that is important. What is your answer, that you didn't know they went into them in such detail or that you didn't know anything about it?
Q Did you know about it?
Q You never heard of it? cigarette cases came from concentration camps to the Reichsbank. That is now to me. camps to the Reichsbank? Anything at all?
Q Gold teeth?
Q What gold from the concentration camps?
A The gold of which Mr; Puhl had reported to me, and I assumed that those were coins and other gold which had to be deposited at the Reichsbank anyway, according to the legal regulations, and which the Reichsbank could utilize. Otherwise, I know nothing about it.
Himmler when you had this conversation, as you tell us, about this gold from the concentration camp victims? I think the Tribunal might be interested in that conversation. What did he say, and what did you say, and where was the conversation hold? more. I saw Himmler very rarely, perhaps once or twice a year. I assume that it was on the occasion of a visit in the fieldquarters of Lammers, where Himmler's field quarters was also located. I am sure it happened there. On that occasion we spoke very, very briefly.
A Possibly during the year 1943 or possibly 19544, I don't remember.
A I paid no attention to this matter at all. I imagine through the conversation I put the question, "There is a gold deposit by you, that is, the SS, which we have at the Reichsbank. The gentlemen of the Board of Directors asked me whether the Reichsbank can utilize that." And he said yes. I spoke nothing about the jewelry or similar items or gold teeth or anything of that sort. The entire conversation referred very surely to this matter. bank independently of you and Himmler but by somebody in the SS, that you were not the original person who arranged the matter?
A That is right., It wasn't me.
Q Who made that arrangement?
A Possibly Mr. Puhl was the gentleman, or maybe somebody else from the Reichsbank directorate, with one of the gentlemen of the Economic Section in the SS. As far as I am concerned I was only informed by Mr. Puhl.
Q Do you know Mr. Pohl, p-o-h-l, of the SS?
A I imagine it was him. Mr. Pohl, p-o-h-l, never spoke to me.
Q You don't know the man?
A I have seen him but to me Mr. Pohl never spoke about these matters.
Q Where did you see him, in the Bank? gentlemen during a luncheon. I walked through the room and I saw him sitting there, but I personally never negotiated with Mr. Pohl about these questions. This is all news to me, this entire matter. court room not so long ago?
Q He said that he had exterminated between 2 1/2 and 3 million Jews and other people at Auschwitz. Before I go into anything further I want to point that testimony out to you. You recall that Himmler sent for him in June, 1941, and that Himmler told him the final solution of the Jewish problem was at hand, and that he was to conduct these exterminations. and found it wasn't big enough and he had to construct gas chambers for 2,000 people at a time, and so his extermination program could not have gotten under way until pretty late in 1941, and that Puhl says it was in 1942 that these shipments began to arrive in the SS?
A I know nothing about the date. I don't know when these things happened. I was never informed about them. This is all news to me that the Reichsbank was busy with these things to this extent. any time you had any knowledge of any kind about these transactions of the SS or their relations with the victims of the concentration camps, after seeing this file, after hearing Puhl's affidavit. You absolutely deny any knowledge at all. than that. That is your statement. Let me ask you something, Mr. Funk -
A Yes. That these things happened consistently is all news to me. and weep when you were being interrogated, you recall, and you did say you were a guilty man; and you gave an explanation of that yesterday. Iam just trying to establish the basis here for another question. You remember that happened?
Q And you said "I am a guilty man." You told us yesterday because you were upset a little bit in the general situation. I am suggesting to you that is it not a fact that this matter that we have been talking about since yesterday has been on your conscience all the time and that is really what was on your mind and it has been a shadow on you ever since you have been in custody?
And isn't it about time that you told this Tribunal the whole story? that is the truth. Let Mr. Puhl be responsible for what he put in the affidavit, I am responsible for what I state here on the witness stand. It is clear that Mr. Puhl is now trying to put the blame on me and make himself innocent. If he has done these things it is his guilt and his responsibility.
Q You are putting the blame on Puhl, aren't you?
A No. He is blaming me and I repudiate that.
Q The trouble is there was blood on this gold, wasn't there, and you have known it since 1942?
tions about two short documents. It will take but a short time. You told the Tribunal yesterday that you had nothing to do with any looting of these occupied countries. Do you know what the Roges Corporation was?
A Yes. I don't know what they did in detail. I only know it was an organization which had official purchases for various Reich departments. extorted funds extorted as occupation costs, didn't it?
Q I am not asking you whether you were for or against it. I am simply asking you is it not a fact that they did do it.
A I don't know.
Q All right. I had better take a look at Document 2263 P.S. which was written by one of your associates, Dr. Landfried, whom you have also asked as a witness here and from whom you have an interrogatory. This is a letter dated June 6, 1942, addressed to the Chief of the O.K.W. Administrative Office:
"In answer to my letter of 25 April 1942" and so on, "100 million Reichsmarks were put at my disposal from the Occupation Cost Fund by the Armed Forced High Command. This amount has already been disposed of except for 10 million Reichsmarks since the demands of the Roges Raw-Material Trading Company, Inc. Berlin, for the acquisition of merchandise on the black market were very heavy. In order not to permit a stoppage in the flow of purchases which were made in the interest of the prosecution of the war, further amounts from the Occupation Cost Fund must be made available. According to reports by Roges and by the Economic Bureau of the Military Commander in France, 30 million Reichsmarks in French Francs are needed every 10 days for such purchases, according to reports by Roges an increase of purchases is to be expected; therefore it will not be sufficient to have the remaining 100 million Reichsmarks ready - according to my letter of 25 April 1942. Above this, an additional amount of 100 million Reichsmarks will be necessary." It is very clear from that letter written by your associate Landfried that the Roges Corporation which was set up by your Ministry was engaged in black market operations in France with money extorted from the French through excessive occupation costs, isn't it?
A That the Roges made such purchases is true. These things have been spoken about at this Tribunal in connection with the orders and directives which the four-year plan gave for these purchases in this black market. However, these are purchases which were approved by the state organization. What we fought against were the purchases without limits in the black market. I already mentioned yesterday that I finally succeeded to get a directive from the Reichsmarshal that all purchases in the black market had to be stopped. Through these purchases naturally the merchandise was taken from the legal markets.
Q That was 1943. There wasn't much left in France on the black market or white market or any other market, was there, at that time? They were pretty well stripped at that time of the occupation as shown in the letters. production in France to a large extent. The information shows in 1943 that large amounts of newly produced goods were sent to Germany. you to say yesterday you didn't have much to do with that. Schlotterer was your man to work with Rosenberg, wasn't he?
A He worked in Russia, but only that; that he worked with the authorized Ministry for the East.
Q That is all I wanted to know. He was assigned. As he participated in the program of stripping Russia of materials and goods, which went on for some considerable period of time, you know about it.
A No, that is not true. This man did not have this task. These transactions were handled by the Economic Department, East. I think that was the name. Which was part of the Four Year Plan. These planned actions were not more than by the Minister Rosenberg.
Q It is a different sotry on different occasions. I think the best way is to read your interrogation. On the 19th of October, 1945, youwere interrogated here in Nuremberg. You were asked this question:
"And part of the plan was to take machines, materials and goods out of Russia and bring them in to Germany, was itnot?"
And you answered: "Most certainly; but I did not participate in that. But I consider it obvious, it was done."
The next question:
"Question: And you yourself participated in the discussions concerning these plans, and also your representative Dr. Schlotterer?
"Answer: I myself did not participate.
"Question: But you gave the power to act for you in that connection, to Dr. Schlotterer?
"Answer: Yes; Schlotterer represented me in economic questions in the Ministry of Rosenberg."
A No, that is not true. This testimony is completly confused, because Schlotterer was assigned to the Ministry of Rosenberg. He became head of the Economic Department there. Also, this testimony is not true to this extent, since we certainly sent more machines into Russia then we took out of Russia. When our group came to Russia everything had been destroyed, and in order to put the economy there in order, we had to send large amounts of machines and other goods to Russia. interrogated that I have just read to you? answers to the questions put to you by Major Ganz were incorrect. I posed another interrogation to you yesterday and you said that was incorrect. Now, a third man has interrogated you and you say that one is incorrect.
MR. DODD: I will submit that interrogation in evidence; it is not in form, to be submitted, but I would like to submit it a little later, when the Tribunal's permission.
THE PRESIDENT: You will inform us as to the number and so on?
MR. DODD: Yes, I will.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other Prosecutors wish to crossexamine?
GENERAL RAGINSKY: After cross-examination by Mr. Dodd, I have only a few supplementary questions. BY GENERAL RAGINSKY: the time of the attack on Soviet Russia, had very limited authority and functions, and that you yourself were not a real minister. to the structure of the ministry of Economics.
Are you familiar with the book by Hans Quecke, entitled "The Reich ministry of Economics"? Do you know about this book? You don't?
Q Are you familiar with the name Hans Quecke?
A Hans Quecke?
Q Hans Quecke. You don't know?
Q Yes, Quecke. He was a counsellor in the Ministry of Economics.
Q Yes. And he, of course, knew about the structure of the Ministry of Economics and its functions?
A Certainly; he must have known about that.
GENERAL RAGINSKY: I present to the Tribunal, in evidence, USSR-451. I now present this book as an exhibit. BY GENERAL RAGINSKY: I shall quote a few paragraphs out of it. Will you please open it at page 65? The last paragraph on that page. Do you find the palace?
A I haven't found it yet. I can only was that it is a report.
Q The structure of the Ministry of Economics. On the 1st of July, 1941, the Deputy was a certain Dr. Landfried.
That is the same Landfried whose testimony was presented by the defense counsel.
Now, will you please follow the text? fundamental questions of supply and raw materials for the military economy.
A Just a moment; I can't find it.
Q It is in Part 2, Paragraph C. Did you find it? Part 2, Paragraph C, subparagraph 2.
Q I shall read this paragraph into the record. We haven't gotten to the foreign organizations as yet.
A Under "State" is Department B, Basis of the Raw material Exploitation, Defense Economics.
Q Military economics; that is what I am talking about. in border regions. not? The third main department was headed by Maier, was it not? Wasn't it headed by him?
Q And you had a special group which was called "Free economics from Jews". That was in 1941.
A Yes; that was the time we dealt with these matters; that is with the regulations. give your explanations subsequently.
The fourth main department was headed by Dr. Kluge, and this department was in charge of banks, currency policy, and questions pertaining to finance. Wasn't that a fact?
your own ministry. Let us not waste time on that.
The fifth main department was headed by von Jagwitz. Is that so? This department was in charge of special economic problems in different countries. The fifth department was in charge of military economic questions, and the same department was in charge of foreign payments. This department was also in charge of confiscation of deposits. Is that true?
A I don't understand. This is the export department here. They merely dealt with foreign exports.
Q One minute, please. Take the fifth department. Did you find the place? That department in your ministry was in charge of confiscation of deposits. department and the Auslands Organization? in charge of that?
A This can be explained in this manner. The Under State Secretary, von Jagwitz, who was the head of this main department, was also active in the export division. He had created a liaison office for himself in the Ministry to deal with economic questions which came to the Ministry-- and particularly to this department, which was the foreign department--and to deal with all these questions. This was only concerned around the person of von Jagwitz, who also came into the department for foreign countries., and he maintained a liaison there. department had special economic functions abroad, and it was cooperating and working with your Ministry, was it not? you had?
A That was not a department. The State Secretary, von Jagwitz, was, at the same time, active in the department for foreign policies; I don't know in what position. He was active in that department for foreign policies before he was taken into the Ministry. to the department for foreign policies. That is, frequently foreign economists came to visit the department for foreign policies of the Nazi Party, and these people came to State Secretary von Jagwitz and discussed their business with him and they reported to him what they had found in foreign countries. purely on the personal initiative of von Jagwitz, and that you, as a Minister, did not know anything at all about it?
A Oh, I knew about it. He did it with my knowledge, and I approved of it, too.
Q Listen to it first; listen to what I want to say, and then you will have a chance to answer.
The last paragraph of this states the following: "The State Main Department is in charge of the Foreign Political Department of the Reich Ministry of Economics. This same department is in charge of all relations between the Ministry and the foreign organizations of the Nazi Party." of von Jagwitz, as you mentioned, but this department really was a part of you Ministry.
Did you find the place?
A Yes. Mr. von Jagwitz had this liaison department, and it was limited to his person only. It was a liaison office for collaboration with the foreign political organization, which was a perfectly natural procedure in many cases. I don't see why this should be unusual or original.