A No, I did not. I did not have these connections and I could not prevent these terror measures.
Q Well, we'll see about that your counsel has submitted on your behalf an affidavit from one Oeser, O-E-S-E-R; do you remember that man? O-E-S-E-R, do you remember him?
Q Do you remember him?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, we'll adjourn for a bare ten minutes.
(A recess was taken) BY MR. DODD:
Q Mr. Witness, I was inquiring about this man Oeser when we recessed -- O-E-S-E-R; do you recall him?
He was one of your employees in the Frankfurter Zeitung, wasn't he? Frankfurter Zeitung, a well reputed journalist.
Q Yes. You know, don't you, that you have an interrogatory or an affidavit from him, which you are submitting to this court; it's in your document book?
Q Well, I't not asking you that's all right -- whether he did or not; I just wanted to establish that you know that he did. you were really being quite decent about the Jews in that newspaper. Isn't that so? Isn't that the sense of it; that you saved them from dismissal and so you put them under the exceptions provided in the decrees?
Q Yes, I know. Now I want to ask you this: There was a real reason, other than decency towards Jews, for your conduct with reference to that particular paper, wasn't there?
A I didn't know these people personally.
Q I don't say that you knew the people personally. I say that there was a reason, other than your feeling for Jews as people, but which you haven't told the Tribunal about yet, another reason maybe.
A In the case of the editors of the Frankfurter Zeitung?
Q Now, isn't it a fact that you and probably Hitler and, certainly Goebbles, and some of the other higher ups of the Nazi Party, decided that that paper should be left in status quo because of its vast influence abroad?
Isn't that true?
A We did not talk about that at that time. That came later. That came at the time when the Fuehrer demanded that almost all leading dailies should either be taken over by the Party or should be merged with Party papers. And at that occasion I was successful in making an exception for the Frankfurter Zeitung, as far as that decision was concerned, and the Frankfurter Zeitung continued to exist, but that was much later, years later. Here, in fact, the reason was only to help the few Jewish editors.
Q You can answer this. I just wanted to get your answer on the record because I'll have more to say about it later. Do I understand you to deny that it was your established policy to preserve the status quo of the Frankfurter Zeitung because of its influence abroad? should remain as it was. people were well known in the financial world abroad, and you didn't want to impair the usefulness of that paper abroad? That's what I'm getting at, and I say that that's why you kept them on, and not because you felt badly about their plight as Jews.
A No, not in this case. In this case that was not the reason.
Q. Very well. Now, with, respect to your activities as Plenipotentiary for the Economy and their relationship to the wars waged against Poland and the other powers, I have some questions that I would like to ask you. Now, I will tell you what it is about first so you will be aware. You are not maintaining, are you, that your position as Plenipotentiary for the Economy didn't have much to do with the affairs of the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes, that I assert. With the Wehrmacht, I had nothing to de.
Q. Now, I have in my hand here a letter which von Blomberg wrote to Goering. Do you remember that letter? It is a new document and you haven't seen it in this trial but do you remember any such letter?
A. No.
Q. Well, I ask you to be handed EC 255.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, this becomes USA Exhibit 839. BY MR. DODD:
Q. Now, in this letter from von Blomberg, I am only concerned now with the last sentence, really. You will notice that von Blomberg, in this letter, refers to the fact that Schacht had been appointed but the last sentence says, or in the next to the last paragraph first urges that you be appointed immediately and that is underlined in his letter; and in the last paragraph he says: "The urgency of unified further work on all preparations for the conduct of the war does not admit of this office being paralyzed until the 15th day of January 1933."
This letter, by the way, was written November 29, 1937. Certainly von Blomberg thought that the job that he was suggesting you for, would have some great effect upon the conduct of the war, didn't he?
A. That may be but in the first place, I don't know that letter and, then, I was not immediately appointed Plenipotentiary for Economy but only in the course of the year 1938 and quite sometime after, I had already been Minister for Economy and when I asked Lammers why it had taken so long until my appointment as Plenipotentiary for Economy, Lammers stated that a clarification of my relations to the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Years Plan had to be found and that was the reason why several months later I became Plenipotentiary for the Economy, because it had to be clarified that Goering would have the docisive authority for war economy --
Q. You really don't need to go into all that.
A. I never saw that letter and I don't know that letter, and I have never spoken to Blomberg about the affair.
Q. All right. You do recall perhaps that the OKW, after you were appoint ed, made some objection about the amount of authority that you had. Do you remember that?
A. No.
Q. Now, I am holding here another new document, EC-270, which I will ask that you be shown, which will be Exhibit USA-840. While you are waiting for it, I will tell you that it is a letter written on the 27th day of April, 1938. You will notice that in the first paragraph of this letter from the OKW, that the interpretation which has been put on the decree of the Fuehrer, -- the decree of the 4th of February 1938, doesn't correspond to the necessities of total warfare. find other objections with respect to your authority. Apparently at this time the OKW thought you had too much to do with what would be the war effort and finally on the last page, Mr. Witness, if you will look at this paragraph you will see this sentence on the last page of the English anyway; near the end of the letter, this sentence appears: "The war economy which is subordinated to the Plenipotentiary General represents the war economic stage of the armaments industry."
And I want you to carefully observe those words "armaments industry."
Then it goes on to say: "If this stage fails, the striking power of the Armed Forces becomes questionable."
I ask that you pay attention to the words "armaments industry" because I recall that this morning you said you had absolutely nothing to do with the armaments industry but apparently the OKW thought that you did on the 27th day of April 1938. Isn't that so?
A. I don't know this letter. I don't know the attitude of the OKW but I know the following, that the OKW especially the co-defendant Field Marshal Keitel, at that time was of the opinion that I as General Plenipotentiary for Economics should assume the authority and competence of Schacht but there was a conversation between the Reichsmarshal and Field Marshal Keitel.
Keitel has confirmed that to me, in which the Reichsmarshal very definitely stated "war economy will not be turned over to Funk" and of all these things, I can say that quite frankly and sincerely, I had not the slightest idea, I did not know what the opinion of the OKW was about my position. I never had that function because the armaments industry was never with the Minister of Economic
Q. All right. That is correct. I suppose at the time you were also aware, as you told the Tribunal, that you were really subordinate to Goering and in a very inferior position about all these things. Is that so?
A. Yes.
Q. I am going to ask you to look at another document, EC-271, which will become USA Exhibit 841, and this document consitst of a letter which you wrote to Lammers, a letter which Lammers wrote to the Chief of the High Command, Field Marshal Keitel, and one or two other letters not pertinent for the purposes of this present inquiry. It was written on March 31, 1938, and I want you to turn to the second page because that is where your letter appears. The first page is just a letter of transmittal from Lammers to Keitel, but let us look at the second page. Have you got it?
A. Yes.
Q. I am not going to read the whole letter but the second paragraph. You wrote to Lammers and you say among other things: "In connection with a trip to Austria I have among other matters talked to General Fieldmarshal Goering, also about the position of the Plenipotentiary for War-Economy. I have pointed out that contrary to the attitude of the OKW, of which I was informed, the decree of 4 February 1938 concerning the leadership of the Wehrmacht did not change the position of the Plenipotentiary for War-Economy." exclusively to the command of the armed forces, and so on, and that especially the last paragraph of that decree stated that they were dependent upon instructions of the Fuehrer.
Then you go on to say: "Moreover, to the instructions of the Fuehrer, belongs also the decision of the Reich Government 21 of May 1935, according to which the Plenipotentiary for War-Economy, in his sphere of duty as supreme Reich authority, is immediately subordinated to the Fuehrer.
"General Fieldmarshal Goering assured me that my interpretation, as mentioned above, was correct in every respect and also corresponds with the Fuehrer's opinion. Thereupon, I asked him to give me a brief written confirmataion. General Fieldmarshal Goering promised to grant this request."
Now, you wrote that letter to Lammers, didn't you, on the 31st day of March 1938? Yes or no?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You were trying to have supreme authority and make yourself answerable only to the Fuehrer and that is what this one sentence was about, and that is what document #C-270 referred to and this is your answer to the OKW's objection that you had too much power. This doesn't look like you were a little man, does it, Mr. Witness?
A. Yes. I just wanted to clarify the position but later it was not clarified in that sense but in the sense that I was dependent upon the directives of the Reichsmarshal and I wrote this letter in order to try to achieve clarification, but in detail I do not remember it.
Q. You told Lammers --
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, isn't this letter that you have just read the very letter which is referred to in the letter which you put to him immediately before?
MR. DODD: Yes, sir, it is. It referred to EC-271. I am sorry, I meant 270.
THE PRESIDENT: GB- No. 649/38 is the letter you just read. Will you look at the first paragraph of EC-27o; the letter referred there, criticizing the defendant Funk's letter, you just read.
MR. DODD: Yes, it is, your Honor. BY MR. DODD:
Q. My point here, Mr. Witness, is tht, you see, you told the Tribunal that you really just worked for Goering; that you didn't have much to say about these things but now we find that you were writing a letter asserting your supreme authority and saying now "it is a fact that I am really only answerable to Hitler" and, you see, those two are quite inconsistent.
What have you got to say about that?
A. Yes; in fact, I was never successful.
Q. Now, let us see if you weren't. You turn another page in that document and you will find another letter from Lammers, written on the 6th day of April 1938, and it is written to you, and he tells you that you are just right in what you understood to be your position; that you are indeed only subordinate to the Fuehrer and that he has sent a copy of your letter to both Fieldmarshal Goering and the Commander of the OKW. Now, what do you say about that?
that post, but in fact I never succeeded because the Reichsmarshal himself stated later that he would never turn over the war economy to me, and in fact, the former authority of the Plenipotentiary for Economy was turned over to the Four-Year Plan by a decree of the Fuehrer of December 1939.
Q Well, is that your answer? at least, that you really didn't have much to do with the planning of any aggressive wars, and that your activities were restricted to regulating and controlling the home economy, so to speak. Now, actually on the 28th of January 1939, which was some months before the invasion of Poland, you were considering the use of prisoners of war, weren't you?
A That I don't know. EC-483, which becomes USA-842. This is an unsigned letter, a captured document from your files. This letter, by the way, was transmitted under the signature of Sarnow, You know who he was; he was your deputy. its subject is "Re: Employment of Prisoners of War." Then it goes on to say:
"Under the Reich Defense Law of 4 September 1938, I have the direction for the economic preparations for the Reich Defense, except the armament industry."
Then it goes on, "For the utilization of labor..." and so on. the sentence in the second paragraph which says:
"The deficit in labor has to be made up by the employment of eventual prisoners of war as far as possible and practical. The preparations, therefore, have to be made in close cooperation with the OKW and GBW. The offices under my jurisdiction will be informed."
Remember that communication?
A No, I have never seen that letter, never signed it. But that letter belongs to the things about which I spoke this morning. The Office of the General Plenipotentiary for Economy --here I see "War Economy" scratched out -- continuously had to do with these things. I personally had nothing to do with it.
Q Well now, that is rather playing with words. This was your ministry that was making these suggestions, and your principal deputy who transmitted this letter, isn't that so?
Q (Interposing) Now, you look up in the right hand corner of that letter and it says "The Plenipotentiary General for the Economy" and then it gives the address and the date.
A Yes, and it is signed "By Order of Sarnow."
Q That's right, and he was your principal deputy, wasn't he?
Q What was he? My main deputy, who was in charge of that office, was Posse.
A (Interposing) As I have said before, I personally did not deal with these things. the man was Posse, then in the second paragraph of that letter you can find his name: AI can refer to the statements of Colonel General Keitel, Secretary of State Dr. Posse..." involved in this thing, weren't they?
Q All right. Now, you remember the document 3562 PS. It was introduced here as USA Exhibit 662. It is the minutes of a meeting, set out by Dr. Posse, your deputy, which discussed a memorandum for financing the war, and you talked about that this morning and you said that despite the fact there is a note on it "to be shown to the Minister," you never saw it.
A Yes. I would have had to initial it if I had seen it. about right now. Instead, I wait you to listen while I read on excerpt from it. If you would like to see the document you can have it, but I hardly think it is necessary. referred to, isn't it? Do you remember? Do you remember that Posse said:
"It was pointed out that the General Plenipotentiary for the Economy is primarily interested to introduce into the legislation for war finance, the idea of financing war expenditures by anticipating future revenues, to be expected after the war."
Q All right. That is all I have to ask about that document. We can move right along here. you to tell the Tribunal that in so far as the war against Poland was concerned, you didn't really know until some time in August that there was even a likelihood of war with Poland; some time in August you thought it would be settled by diplomatic means. Isn't that so?
A In probability not. Danger of war had wxisted, was dormant, for months, but that war was immediately ahead could be assumed in August. with Poland for more than a year before the attack on Poland? You can answer that yes or no.
A I don't know that.
Q You mean you don't Know whether you did or not? What do you mean by that kind of an answer? Don't you remember?
A I don't remember.
Q All right. Then I can help you. You must remember it; it is USA Exhibit 551. That is a speech that you made. Don't you remember saying in there that you had been planning in secret for well over a year for the war on Poland?
Do you remember that? Would you like to see the document?
Q The sentence is here:
"Although all the economic and financial departments were harnessed in the tasks and work of the Four-Year Plan, under the leadership of the General Field Marshal Goering, the war economic preparation of Germany has also been advanced in secret."
Do you remember that?
Q You will notice it says here "for well over a year", and you went on to say this had been done under you.
Is that true? Civilian Economy. That I explained.
Q All right. Well, that is all right. I just wanted to get your -
A (Interposing) But of Poland I did not speak. It was October 1939. some extent, weren't you? Was the Goering door one of those that you were also trying to get in?
You can answer that very simply. You told us you were trying to get in those various doors, but you would get up there and never get in. I now ask you if the Goering door was one of those.
A I don't believe that I was so ambitious or that I wanted to get Goering's post. That was far from me.
Q I didn't say that you wanted to get his post, but you wanted to get some of his authority, didn't you? Or don't you remember? Maybe that is the solution.
the Prosecution and the document is No. 3894-PS. He was asked these questions:
"Question: What was the nature of the conflict between the Plenipotentiary for Economy and the Four-Year Plan?
"Answer: The struggle for power.
"Question: The struggle for power between Funk and Goering?
"Answer: The struggle for power between Funk and Goering, between Funk and the Ministry for Agriculture and the ministry for Communications.
"Question: How was the struggle finally resolved?
"Answer: Never. It was a struggle always continuing under the surface."
Then we move on:
"Question: Did Funk, who had very important powers as Minister of Economics and later as Reichsbank President and as Chief Plenipotentiary for the Economy, actually exercise these powers?
"Answer: Yes. But the powers of Goering were stronger.
"Question: Nevertheless, Funk did exercise important powers?
"Answer: Yes, as President of the Reichsbank, Minister of Economics, and Plenipotentiary for Economy."
Posse was your chief deputy, wasn't he? my deputies were Landfreid and Puhl as far as the Reichsbank was concerned.
Q You don't think he really knew what he was talking about when he said you were in the struggle for power? Is that your answer?
MR. DODD: That becomes USA Exhibit 843. We haven't offered it up to now. BY MR. DODD:
Q Now, Mr. Witness, I want to ask you about when you first heard of the impending attack on Russia.
I understood you to tell the Tribunal that you heard about it sometime -- I think you said -- in May. Is that right? Or June?
Q Well, that is what we want to know. When Rosenberg, in April of 1941, was appointed, you knew then there was to be an attack on Russia, didn't you? But this morning I don't think you made that statement. Isn't that right, Mr. Funk? told that the Fuehrer considered a war with Russia to be likely.
Q Yes, but you know what you told the Tribunal this morning. You said that Lammers sent you notice of Rosenberg's appointment because of your interest in improving the trade relations with Russia. That is the answer you made this morning. Now, that wasn't so, was it?
Q I don't care what Lammers said. I am asking you now if it isn't a fact that you were told by Lammers because you were to cooperate with Rosenberg in making ready for the occupation of those territories after the attack began. Now you can answer that very simply. Isn't that true?
Q Now, we'll see. You know, on another occasion you have given another answer, by the way, I might say parenthetically. Do you remember telling the interrogator that you first heard from Hess about the impending attack on Russia? Do you remember you gave that answer at one time as the source of your first knowledge? Do you remember telling us that?
Q I'll tell you about that in a minute. We will stay now on this Rosenberg business.
There is a document No. 1031-PS and it is dated May 28, 1941, which would be a little more than a month after the Rosenberg appointment, "Top Secret Notes; Meeting with Reichsminister Funk." Do you know what you were talking about that day, about counterfeiting money for use in Russia and the Ukraine and the Caucasus?
Do you remember it. You don't remember it? Well, you had better take a look at the document. It is No. 1031-PS, which becomes USA Exhibit 844.
Don't you remember the day that your Reichsbank Director Wilhelm said it shouldn't appear that you were counterfeiting so-called ruble bills for use in the occupied countries?
Rosenberg was at that meeting. It is a very short memorandum. Have you read it? Oh, it is on page four, I think of the document you have; I am sorry. Do you find it? It starts out "In the Ukraine and in the Caucasus, however, it would become necessary to maintain the present currency, the ruble" -- and so on. You were talking about money problems in the territory that you expected to occupy, and that was, well, about a month before the attack and about a month after the Rosenberg appointment, was it not?
Can you not give me an answer? questions. attack on the countries that had to be conquered, did you not?
A I did not know of an attack. I only know of a danger that a war would start.
Q Well, all right, you have it your way. The important thing was that you were talking about using money in the Ukraine and in the Caucasus, and it happened about a month later.
Q All right. There are quite a few questions I want to ask. I would like to close this examination before the adjournment time is due. Do you have anything you want to say to that? I only offered to show that you had knowledge about the impending attack. You know that something was going to happen in the East. That is all I wanted to ask. I think you will agree with that, won't you? this morning -- I knew that a war with Russia was threatened.
Q We are all in agreement. We do not need to go further. I understood you to say this morning that you did not know. That is all right. I misunderstood you then. I now understand you to say that you did know it.
expecting a war with Russia, but I am not clear about this document, as to who has written it.
Q Well, I do not know either. I can simply tell you that it was captured, among other documents, from Rosenberg's files. I cannot tell you anything more about it. I do not think there is any need to go on with it. kassenscheine and with the exchange rate, there were various objections. It shows that I was very careful about it.
Q All right. I am glad to have your observations about it. I want to talk to you a little bit about when you took over the Reichsbank. Posse was your principal deputy in your Ministry of Economics, was he not? talking about.
Who was your principal assistant in the Reichsbank?
Q He was a holdover from the Schacht days, was he not?
Q Did you induce him to remain? Did you ask him to remain?
Q You said that you selected your personnel. That is what you told the Tribunal this morning.
Q I am not interested in going through your roster of personnel. I am only asking -- and I will tell you the purpose. Puhl was a reliable banking man, was he not? He was well known in international banking circles. He had been, offered a position in the Chase Bank in New York at one time, did you know that?
Q It is true. In any event,he was quite a man, and he is a reliable man, is he not?
Q You asked for him as a witness, did you not?
Q And you wanted him to come here because you believe him? How much gold did you have on hand at the end of the year 1941? Roughly. Don't give me a long story about it. I am not too much interested. I am trying to find out if you were short on gold in 1941. That was when I got the post of Schacht. gold. another purpose in mind.
From whence did you obtain gold after you took over? Where did you getyou get any new reserves from? after I had assumed the position, the gold reserve of the Czech National Bank. There must have been some gold, and then mainly through the Belgian gold.
Q All right. Now, of course, gold became very important to you as a matter of payment in foreign exchange. You had to pay off in gold alone in 1942 and 1943, did you not? Is that so? introduced gold embargoes. Sweden refused to accept gold. Only in Switzerland could we still do business by transfer of gold. exchange in 1942 and 1943. When did you start to do business with the SS, Mr. Funk?
A Business with the SS? I have never done that.
Q Are you sure about that? I want you to take this very seriously. It is about the end of your examination, and it is very important to you. I ask you again when did you start to do business with the SS?
A I have never done business with the SS. I can only say the same that I said in the previous interrogation: That is that one day Puhl informed me that a deposit had been received from the SS. First, I assumed that it was a regular deposit, that is, a deposit which would remain locked and which would not hinder us further, but then Puhl told me later that deposits of the SS should be used by the Reichsbank, and I assumed that there were gold coins or currency, but in the main, gold coins, which every other German citizen had had to turn in, and so I thought they were taken from inmates of concentration camps and turned over to the Reichsbank. There were also valuables which had been taken from the inmates of concentration camps that did not go to the Reichsbank but to the Reich Finance Minister.
Q Just a minute. Were you in the habit of having gold teeth deposited in the Reichsbank?
Q But you did have it from the SS, did you not?
Q You don't know.