Q Dr. Funk, at this point we are concerned with the question of whether you knew of Hitler's intent to bring about a war, especially to wage aggressive war, and to bring conquest through aggressive wars; whether you had knowledge of his intent along these lines. I would like to put a few questions to you which for the sake of simplicity I would like to have you answer yes or no; for I would like to know only whether your knowledge and your memory agree with the statements made by some witness and some defendants. were especially hard pressed if you wanted to see Hitler; that you had great difficulty in seeing him; that you saw him just once in a great while; and that even on one occasion I believe it was for days you were with Lammers at headquarters and always waited for the visit which had been promised you but that you could not actually get to see Hitler, and that you had to leave for home without having accomplished your mission. Is that correct?
Q Now a further question: We have been confronted with several documents which say explicitly -- I believe it is the record of Lammers -- that the Reichsminister of Economics and I believe one time the Foreign Minister, had requested to be called in to certain meetings; that Minister Lammers tried to do his best to bring this about, and that Hitler rejected this; that he explicitly prohibited you and the Reich Foreign Minister to have access to their meetings, even though you pointed out that important matters of your department were to be dealt with. Is that correct? Perhaps you can answer with just yes or no. of labor and I myself had no connection with that, and the Foreign Minister did not seem to have any strong interest along these lines cither. So I assume that for those reasons the Fuehrer called neither the Foreign Minister nor me into this meeting, and the Fuehrer did not need me for, as I said yesterday already, as far as directives for the carrying on of the economy were given by him up to the year 1942, they were given to the Reichsmarshal and the Reichsmarshal was responsible for carrying on the economy. After 1942 the directives were given to Speer, for from that date on armament dominated the entire economic life, and all economic positions were traced back to the Fuehrer and everything had to be dovetailed to armament.
Q Dr. Lammers in his testimony on the 8th of April stated, I quote:
"The Fuehrer many times objected, that is, against Funk. There were several reasons and different reasons which worked against Funk. He said that Hitler was aseptically inclined towards Funk and did not want him," From the testimony of the Witness Dr. Lammers. This disinclination of Hitler's to you, can you explain that? need me. superfluous.
Q Mr. Witness, in connection with the chapter "Aggressive War," I would be interested in noting the following: In the Indictment against you on page 30, 34 -- that is, 34 of the German trial brief, it is set forth that you personally and through your official representatives, participated in the preparation which led to the aggressive war against Russia. And as the sole proof for this statement a document is given, 1039 P.S., U.S. 146. I repeat, 1039 P.S., U.S.146. From this document it allegedly is to be seen that you, defendant, at the end of April, 1941, together with Rosenberg -- Rosenberg who is responsible for the Western territories -- had a discussion about the economic questions which would result if the aggressive plans in the East would be carried through. I am therefore asking you, Dr. Funk, to note the date of this discussion, that is, the end of April, 1941, just short time before the beginning of the war against Russia;and in order to refresh your memory I would like to point out that at that time, that is, before the war against Russia actually broke out, Rosenberg had already been nominated as Hitler's plenipotentiary for the eastern torritories. And I am asking you now to define your position to this discussion and especially dealing with whether it can be seen from this that you participated in an aggressive war toward Russia or the preparation for it. And if you did participate, how.
A I know nothing about the aggressive war against Russia. I was very much surprised when from Lammer's words I had the advice that the Fuehrer had made Rosenberg plenipotentiary for Eastern European problems.
Lammers stated here that he had me advised of this matter for personal reasons for he know that I was very much interested in all economic relations with Russia. For the mutual efforts, that is, on the side of Russia as well as on the side of Germany, it had been made successful to reconstruct this trade and make it strong again, especially since in prior years, that is, before the first World War, the German trade with Russia had been the decisive factor in German trade and the money amounted to several billion of German gold marks. The Russians delivered us ore, oil, grain, and made these deliveries very promptly, and our deliveries of machines lagged behind a little for, first of all, the machines had to be produced. In fact, mostly these were special orders, they were highly specialized machines. And as far as army supplies were sent to Russia, I did not know, for I was not concerned with those problems. Therefore I was surprised through the announcement that Rosenberg had been appointed. Rosenberg called on me and told me briefly that this instruction from the Fuehrer was to bring with it the treatment of economic problems and plans. Thereupon I told one of the men in my ministry, Dr. Schlotterer, to work for Rosenberg in the problem when the Eastern Ministry was founded; and as far as I know, this had been in July. Dr. Schlotterer, a man whom I had given to Rosenberg -- Dr. Schlotterer with some colleagues took ever the leadership of the economic aspect in the ministry of Rosenberg are simultaneously, as far as I remember, Schlotterer entered the Wirtschafts Fuehrung Stab Ost, (Economic Operational Staff, East), and this was the organization of the Four-Year plan, this organization which has been mentioned repeatedly. It dealt with all economic problems in the occupied Eastern Territories. I asked Lammers as well as Rosenberg just what this would mean and both of them told me that the Fuehrer was of the opinion the a war with Russia was inevitable, that along the entire Eastern Front the Russians had had many re-enforcements that there had been discussions with Molotov, and at which I was not present; that these discussions had been unsatisfactory; that the Russians had been making demands regarding the Balkan regions, regarding the Baltic and the Dardanelles, which could not be acquiesced in by Germany or by the Fuehrer.
And in fact, even this matter was a complete surprise to me, as to the German people, and I am of the conviction that this war was upsetting to the German people.
Q When you spoke of July, you meant July, 1940?
THE PRESIDENT: You said July, I want to know if you meant July 1940.
DR. SAUTER: My interpretation is not coming through, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness spoke of July. Did he mean July 1940?
DR. SAUTER: As far as I know, July 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean July 1941? That was after the war with Russia had begun. The witness can answer for himself, I suppose, can he not?
Did you mean July 1940?
A. The discussion with Rosenberg was at the end of April or the beginning of May 1941, and the foundling of the Ministry Rosenborg was in July 1941.
Q. Witness, now we shall turn to a different point made by the Prosecution You are accused of having committed as Reichs Minister of Economy deeds which are punishable, dealing with the persecution of the Jews and the elimination of Jews from the economic life. These are the happenings of November 1938. Now I should like to ask you to picture your activity along these lines.
A. I am asking the High Tribunal, as far as this point is concerned, to give me some time for a rather detailed pucture. Then the points which we will treat with subsequently can be dealt with much more briefly. This is the point raised by the Prosecution which really hits me the hardest. received from the Party, and especially from Goebbels and Ley, I received the demand to eliminate the Jews from the economic life, since it was unbearable -and the assertion was made that way to me -- that people should still have to buy in Jewish stores. The Party could not permit members of the Party to buy in stores like that and the Party was also offended by the fact that high Party dignitaries and their wives were still shopping in Jewish stores. This had created quite a furor in the Party, and in the Labor Front people refused to deal with the managers of Jewish businesses, and there were constant conflicts, and it was also said that there would be no peace and quiet if those measures which had been started on in a small way here and now were not carried out to such an extent that gradually the Jews would be eliminated completely from the economic life.
under my predecessors and which, in agreement with the Labor Front, had been carried through by my predecessors, the economic life had political and Party functions. The manager or leader of a business was at the same time a representative of the Party and had applications to the State. their enterprises to people at prices which we did not like. I had friends am* the Jewish Leaders of big industry and banking, and I had made private agreement and had brought about their eliminataion from economic life, but there was no peace to be had, and we had to try at a certain time and in line with legal prescriptions to crowd the Jewish influences out of economic life and to removal them from the economic life completely. ings should be carried on slowly, that it was to be carried on in certain period of time; secondly, that the Jews were to have an adequate compensation; thirdly that one might leave certain economic interests in their hands, especially insofar as shares were concerned. I participated in this meeting with Goering the meeting which has been mentioned here so frequently. and 10, 1938, burst upon us. The center of these activities was at Munich, an they really hit me personally very hard. When on the morning of 10 November I came to my Ministry, I saw on the streets and in the windows of the stores the devastation which had taken place and heard further details from my officials in the Ministry. I tried to reach Goering and Goebbels and Himmler, but they were all en route from Munich. Finally I succeeded in reaching Goebbels. this valuable economic goods which could not be replaced had been destroyed and that our relations abroad, upon which we placed special stress at this time and upon which we were particularly.
dependent at this time, would be disturned markedly. affairs, that I should have eliminated the Jews from the economic life long since, and that the Fuehrer, through Reichsmarshal Goering, would issue an order according to which the Jews would be completely eliminated from the economic life and that I would receive further details from the Reichsmarshal. This telephone conversation with Goebbels was confirmed by him later, and witnesses can testify to this point. meeting on the twelfth with Goering, who was the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, in which the Jewish problem was to be regulated, and the Four Year Plan had given instructions to the Ministry to prepare a decree which was to be the basis for laws dealing with the elimination of Jews from the economic life. actually took place. There was a discussion in the morning with the Reichsmarshal, at which the gauleiters were present. The Reichsmarshal was very, very much excited, and he said that he would not tolerate this terror and that he was holding the various gauleiters responsible for that which had happened in their gaus. which has been read into the record several times Goebbels very soon produced his very radical demands, and he more or less tore the leadership into his own hands. state of peevishness made those statements which are mentioned in the record.
On the whole, the record is full of holes. It is very incomplete. After this meeting, it was clear to me that now, as a matter of fact, the Jews would have to be eliminated from the economic life, and in order to protect the Jews from further terror and the loss of all their rights and to protect them against exploitation and plundering, legal measures would have to put on the statute books.
and the Minister of Justice, gave out measures for the carrying out of these measures. After the transition of the Jewish businesses and Jewish shares were given over to trustees, the Jews was compensated along measures of three per cent, and I saw to it that as far as the Ministry of Economy was drawn into this, these compensations were carried out according to law and that no new injustice was done the Jews. thought of that in any way. Of course, in the meeting, a plan was mentioned briefly that an emigration of the Jews was to be organized, but in the measures of terror and of violence against Jews I personally did not participate. I regretted these measures to the utmost, and I rejected them as sharply and as critically as possible, but the measures for the carrying through of these laws I had to give out in order to protect the Jews against their losing all rights, and the legal determinations which were issued had to be carried through in an orderly manner.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken.)
activity concerning the decrees for the exclusion of Jews from economic life and at the end you told us about the minutes of a session with Goering, of the 12th of November 1938. That is PS-1816. not set up correctly, and that there are omissions in it, but we can see from these minutes that apparently you were instrumental in applying brakes on the measures and you tried to save, for the Jews, one thing or another. So, we can see, for instance, from the minutes, that during the conference, you repeatedly intervened and maintained that the Jewish stores should be reopened. Is that correct? also so that the Jews should be able to keep their shares and interests. That can be seen from a question that you put. been of the opinion that the Jews should keep their shares and during that conference I expressed that. It was quite new to me that the Jews should also turn over their possessions of shares and they got Government bonds and were supposed to turn over all their shares and interests. Government would take over the shares and the utilization of such shares, of course, was very difficult. in favor of bringing the Jews into Ghettoes and you recall that the Prosecution has once mentioned that fact here.
What was your attitude at that time, Dr. Funk, concerning that subject matter by Heydrich? Ghettoes a terrible thing. I had not known any Ghettoes, and I said to myself, "Three million Jews among seventy million Germans -- well, we can let them live without Ghettoes."
have to stay with the other. I also said, during that conference, that the individual Jew, under the conditions which would be created for him now, could not exist alone.
Q In that connection, Mr. President, may I be permitted to point out two affidavits which I included in the document book Funk under No. 16 and No. 3, and may I ask to take official notice of their contents as evidence?
The affidavit No. 3, that is, Exhibit No. 3, in the document book on Page 12 of the German text was made by the wife of the accused, of the Defendant -- page 14 of the English text, my Lord -- and it was offered at the beginning of the trials on 5 November 1945. From that affidavit which I shall give here in substance, we can see that at the time of the perpetrations of November, 1938, against the Jews, the Defendant, together with his wife, and his niece, stayed in Berlin, and besides, that was not Munich where the so-called "Old Fighters" were assembled and where Minister Dr. Goebbels quite suddenly and to the general surprise of everyone, proclaimed the proposals for the Jewish programs.
Mrs. Funk confirms in her affidavit that her husbank, as soon as he heard of such perpetrations, very excitedly called Dr. Goebbles over the telephone and asked him, "Have you gone crazy to commit such outrages? One has to be ashamed to be a German. Our whole prestige abroad is getting lost. Here I era trying day and night to preserve the national patrimony and you throw it recklessly out of the window. If this beastly mess does not stop immediately, I will throw the whole matter overboard." And that was the telephone conversation which at that time the defendant had from Berlin with Dr. Goebbles. And the further contents of that affidavit are concerned with interventions and stops which the defendant took for Jewish acquaintances of his, and in a similar sense, gentlemen, we find in the affidavit by Heinz Kallus, who had been Ministerialrat in the Ministry of Economy under the defendant Funk.
I submitted this affidavit as No. 15 of the document book Funk. It was made out on the 9th of December, '45, and this witness also confirms that Funk, of course, was extremely surprised by those perpetrations and that he got immediately in touch with the competent offices in order to prevent any further perpetrations which the defendant Funk has given himself. In connection with that affair concerning the Jews, I should like to refer to document 3489-PS; I repeat, 3489-PS, which can be found, on page 19 of the trial brief against Funk. That is a circular letter by Funk of the 6th of February, '39, published in the Ministerialblatt of the Ministry of Economy of the Reich, and here we find and I quote:
"Just to what extent and what speed one has to use the authorities of the Four Years Plan depends on the orders given by me, according to the directives by the Plenipotentiary for the Four Years Plan." of that time the defendant Funk expresses clearly that, even in this field, he only had to pass on and to execute the directives of the Four Years Plan.
Is that correct, Dr. Funk?
Q Dr. Funk, you have said before that in keeping with your entire past and your principal attitude and in keeping with your entire philosophy, the reproach concerning the elimination of Jews from public life, that you have considered that reproach a very severe one. And in that connection I should like to put to you that during an interrogation in Nurnberg on the 22nd of October, 1945, you have told the interrogating officer --you finally broke into tears and you told him at that time: "At that time I should have resigned. I am guilty." That Quotation is a literal quotation which was mentioned in the course of the proceedings once before. Perhaps you can tell us how it came to that remark and that collapse on your part which I believe I can read from that record? into the prison.
Q Dr. Funk, one question-murderer and a thief; I can't know of what else. I was sick for nine or ten weeks, and I came straight from the hospital bed; I was brought here daring the night. During these days my interrogations started right away. I have to admit that the American officer who interrogated me, Colonel Gurfein, took care of my interrogation with extreme consideration and again and again he interrupted when I was unable to go on. And when these measures of terror and violence against Jews were put up to me, I suffered a nervous breakdown because at the moment it came to my mind, with all clearness that from here on the catastrophe took its course all the way up to the terrible and atrocious things about which we have heard here and about which I know only in part from the time of my captivity. I felt ashamed and the feeling of guilt at that moment and I do feel the same way today, but too late.
orders and directives that came down to me. That is no crime against humanity. I have merely carried out the will of the state and put that before my inner voice of conscious because I was obliged to serve the state. I considered myself also obliged to act according to the will of the Fuehrer, the supreme leader of the state, especially since these measures were necessary just for the protection of the Jews, in order to save them from absolute lack of legal protection and further arbitrary acts of violence. They were compensated, I felt, and, as it can be seen from the circular letter which you have just quoted, I gave strict directives to my functionaries to carry out these legal measures in a just and correct way.
It's a particularly tragic fact that I was charged with these things. I have said already that in perpetrations against Jews, I took no part. From the first moment I disapproved severely of these and they shocked me seriously. I have done everything, as much as it was within my power, to continue to help the Jews. I have never thought about an extermination of the Jews. At that time I did not participate in any way in these things, as far as these happenings are concerned.
Q Dr. Funk, you have just mentioned that you had not thought of an extermination, that is, an annihilation of the Jews. I should like to refer to a document which has been quoted before 3545-PS, which at the time had been submitted by the Prosecution and that, as you may recall, is the photostat of the "Frankfurter Zeitung", of the 17th of November 1938. That is of an issue which appeared after the incidents, the happenings with which we are now concerned. In that issue of the "Frankfurter Zeitung", a speech held by you was published, which was concerned with the legal measures for the exclusion of Jews from German economic life and you certainly recall that the prosecutor, in his presentation of the 11th of January 1946, has accused you, and I quote: "That the economic program, the program of economic persecution of the Jews were merely a part of the large program of extermination". And that is in conformity with a remark in your trial brief, where it said, and I quote: "It was merely a part of a larger program of extermination of the Jews." Now, in all the proclamations which were issued by you during that time, I find no reason to think that you agreed with an extermination, that is, an annihilation of the Jews or that you had demanded such. What can you say about that opinion of the persecution? I ever demanded an extermination of the Jews or made any statement of the kind. Apparently this expression by the prosecutor, in my opinion, is only based on imagination or a temperament with which he viewed these things. I myself have never suggested the extermination of the Jews and of the atrocious happenings which have been mentioned here, I did not know anything and I had nothing to do with it; and later, even as much as I recall, I have never taken part in any measures against the Jews since these things were no more in my province of work; with the exception of those legal measures, I do not believe that in all my work, in my position, I had done or caused anything that had anything to do with Jewish matters.
Q Is it correct, Dr. Funk, that in connection with the carrying out of these directives which you had to issue, that you yourself intervened for a large number of people, of individuals who at that time had to suffer from these directives and who approached you personally for aid and that you did so that in this way the execution of these decrees could be moderated?
A Yes. I had seen to it that these decrees were handled in a fair way and according to the basic laws but, of course, the carrying out of these directives was not so much a matter to be taken care of by the Ministry but it demanded a great deal on the attitude of the government officers and Gauleiters and offices dependent on Gauleiters, and many complaints have reached me about the manner in which aryanization was carried out and my assistants will confirm that in every single case where I was informed about persecutions, I intervened. I even dismissed an official in that department when I heard about the incorrect way in which matters were handled.
Q Why?
A Because these incorrect ways occurred. As I have said before, I have done everything in my power to aid the Jews in the my of foreign currency an also in carrying out these directives, I did everything in my power within the framework of whatever was possible to modify them.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, this question as to how Funk in fact stood as to the carrying out of these decrees and how he himself as an official disapproved of them, that question I also treated in an interrogatory which was sent to the former State Secretary Landfried. That interrogatory was returned some time ago but we found out that a wrong interrogatory had been sent out and the correct answer had been received on Saturday. It is now in translation and I assume that these answers in the right interrogatory which are the answers by the State Secretary Landfried, will be submitted in the course of the day and that it will then be submitted as document No. 16 of the appendix, Exhibit No. 16. I assume, however, that you will approve if I sue the answers of the witness Landfried now in connection with this.
Landfried was from 1939 to 1943 -
THE PRESIDENT: Has the prosecution seen the Document?
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
MR DODD: We haven't seen this document. We have seen the German text. I don't read German and I haven't had an opportunity to read it. It hasn't been translated.
THE PRESIDENT: The document can be submitted after the prosecution had seen it. You needn't submit it al this moment. Have you any other witness or not?
DR. SAUTER: Not for that.
THE PRESIDENT: No, no, but are there any other witness at all?
DR. SAUTER: One witness, Dr. Heidler, but for other subjects.
THE PRESIDENT: I presume the defendant will be cross-examined.
DR. SAUTER: I beg your pardon
THE PRESIDENT: Presumably the defendant will be cross examined.
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: These documents will be translated by then.
DR. SAUTER: Yes. Mr. President, if you so desire, then I will have to submit that document later, separately.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Dr. Funk, I come now to a reproach which, according to my knowledge, has not been mentioned in the trial brief yet and that is the problem of Occupied Territories. That is the question of exploitation, of plunder of Occupied Territories costs of occupation, clearing agreements, stabilization of currency and such. The prosecution asserts that you had actively participated in a program for criminal plunder of Occupied Territories. That can be found on page -- this is the record of the proceeding of the 11th of January 1946; that accusation is not further specified, but during the session of the 21st of February, page 4770 -- I repeat, 4770 of the German transcript -- there is reference made to a decree of the Reichs minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, the defendant Rosenberg, and that decree was submitted by the prosecution on No. 1015-PS, and it represents the copy of a decree by the Minister for the East Rosenberg to the Reich Commissars in the Occupied Eastern Territories.
The decree tells the Commissars about the task of the "Special Staff Rosenberg" for securing of cultural property; as such, may I assume cultural treasures, with such cultural treasures, the Reich Minister for Economy had nothing to do but we Can see that that letter -- and that is very peculiar -- from that letter of Rosenberg of 7 April 1942, that the letter did not only go to various other offices but also to you; that is to say, to the Reich Ministry for Economy and from that fact alone, apparently from that fact alone, the Soviet Prosecutor has accused you that you had actively participated in the plunder of the Occupied Territories. I had to explain the connection to you in such detail so that we know what we are confronted with and maybe you can speak only briefly about it.
A. Up to the time when these proceedings started, I didn't even know what the Einsatzstab Rosenberg, the Special Staff Rosenberg, was, what its task was, what its extent was. I have no knowledge that the Ministry of Economy had anything to do with the safeguarding of cultural treasures. I can't say a thing to it.
Q. You can't say anything about this point, about the Einsatzstab Rosenberg?
A. About the policy in the occupied territories I can say a great deal.
Q. Then, Dr. Funk, in the interrogatory of Dr. Landfried which I have mentioned before, there were five or six questions concerning your attitude on the economic policies in the occupied territories as he knew it. Then, I put questions to him as to whether you had given directives to the military commanders or the Reich Commissars for the occupied territories, or to the chiefs of the civil administration in Alsace-Lorraince. Furthermore, I asked whether it was right that economic directives for occupied territories also did not come from you as Reich Minister for Economics, but from the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan. Then I put questions concerning your attitude on the question of exploitation and plunder of occupied territories, particularly in the West, about currency policies, devaluation of currency, and other such things.
Now, D.r Funk, I cannot use the statements by the witness Landried at this moment, and that is because, by a mistake made by the particular office, the answers from Landfried arrived only last Saturday. Will you please, since this is your personal testimony, add anything to these questions, or would you like to refer to whatever I shall submit to the Tribunal as soon as I have received translations? for you to refer to that chapter.
A. I should like to state my position on various questions, but the details of these problems will naturally be better explained by the State Secretary than by myself.
well as Reichsminister Lammers, have stated here that I, as Reichsminister for Economy, had no authority to issue directives. The Reichsmarshal, during his testimony, stated -- and I marked it down:
"As to the directives and the economic policy of the Minister for Economy and Reichsbank President Funk, for these I only was responsible." special directives which had to do with the ministries and the offices in occupied territories, then they came from the general directives of the Reichsmarshal, were based on them, and as he said, they were based on his personal responsibility. economic fields could only be given by the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan. The carrying out of economic policy was the task of the military commanders or the Reich Commissars who were directly subordinate to the Fuehrer As far as the military commanders were concerned, as well as the Reich Commissars, they had under them officials for the various departments. Among them, of course, were also officials from the Ministry of Economy and the Reichsbank. There were even people from private industry who were active with them, and there was, of course, close cooperation between the offices of the military plenipotentiaries and the Reich Commissars and the various departments back home, with the exception of occupied territories in Russia where the Reich Commissars were subordinate to a special minister, that is, the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. There, therefore, there was a special regulation, but if we in the Ministry wanted to have anything done by the military commanders or the Reich Commissars, we had to ask them for it or we had to get a directive from the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan. Alsace-Lorraine, and in other territories where they were, and here also, departments such as the Ministry for Economy and the Reichsbank had no direct authority to issue directives.