A. If that's the way you see it.
Q. Then, you also, in addressing the personnel of the Austrian National Bank which you were taking over, said this:
"I consider it completely impossible that even a single person will find his future with us who is not wholeheartedly for Adolf Hitler. (Strong continue applause; shouts of Sieg Heil)" Continuing with the speech:
"Whoever does not do so had better withdraw from our circle of his own accord. (Stormy applause)."
Is that what happened?
A. Yes, they all agreed.
Q. Now, had the Reichsbank, before 1933 and 1934, been a political institution?
A. No.
Q. Had politics been in the Reichsbank?
A. Never.
Q. Well, on this day, speaking to its employees, you said this, did you not:
"The Reichsbank will always be nothing but National Socialist, or I shall cease to be its manager. (Heavy, protracted applause)" Did that happen?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, sir, you have said that you never took the oath to Hitler.
A. Yes.
Q. I ask you if this is what you, as head of the Reichsbank, required of your employees who you were taking over in Austria, and I quote:
"Now I shall ask you to rise. (The audience rises.) Today we pledge allegiance to the great Reichsbank family, to the great German community; we pledge allegiance to our newly arisen, powerful Greater German Reich, and we sum up all these sentiments in the allegiance to the man who has brought about all this transformation. I ask you to raise your hands and to repeat after me:
"I swear that I will be faithful and obedient to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and the German people, Adolf Hitler, and will perform my duties conscientiously and selflessly.
(The audience takes the pledge with uplifted hands.)
"You have taken this pledge. A scoundrel he who breaks it. To our Fuehrer a triple 'Sieg Heil'."
Is that a correct representation of what took place?
A. The oath was the required civil service oath and it was quite according to that which I said yesterday, that the oath was given to the head of the state, as I explained before. "We stand united for the German people" -- I don't know exactly what the expression was, just the same thing you said in that oath.
Q. I have referred to EC-297, United States Exhibit 632 in the course of this. That is the exhibit I have been using. Hitler?
A. Yes. One cannot take a visible oath to an idea. Therefore, one has to use a person. But I said yesterday that I did not take an oath on Ebert or Hindenburg or the Kaiser personally, but on the head of state as representa tive of the people.
Q. You told your employees that all of the sentiments of this oath were summed up in the allegiance to the man, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. Isn't that what you said?
A. No. Don't you want to read it again? It does not mean the man, but the leader. That is the head of the state.
Q. Well, no matter what you took the oath to -
A. (Interposing) Excuse me. There is a great difference.
Q. Well, we'll get to that. Whatever you took the oath to, you were breaking it at the very time, were you not?
A. No. I never broke the oath to this man as representative of the German people, but I broke the oath when I found out that that man was a criminal.
Q. When you plotted to cause his death?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you want to explain to the Tribunal how you could cause the death of ADolf Hitler without also causing the death of the head of the German State?
A. There is no difference, because unfortunately that man was the head fo the German nation.
Q. You say you never broke the oath?
A. I don't know what you want to express by that. Certainly I did not keep the oath which I took to Hitler, because Hitler himself was a criminal who did not keep his word, and there was no other head of state. I don't know what you want to say, but I did not keep my oath to him and I am proud of it.
Q. So you were administering to your employees an oath which at that moment you were breaking and intending to break?
A. Again you confuse different periods of time. That was during a time im March '38 when, as you have heard before, I still had my dounts, and therefore it was not clear in my mind just exactly what kind of a man Hitler was. Only when in the course of 1938 I found out that Hitler was eventually walking into a war, did I break the oath.
Q. When did you gind him walking into a war?
A. When, in the course of the year 1938, by and by, judging from the events, I could assume that eventually Hitler would steer into a war, that is to say, intentionally. Then only did I break my oath.
Q. Well, you stated yesterday that you started to savotage the government in 1936 and '37.
A. Yes, because I did not want excessive armament.
Q. Yes. And you were administering -
A. (Interposing) Excuse me. Because I did not want excessive armament.
Q. And we find you administering an oath to the employees to be faithful and obedient.
Now, I ask you if you didn't make this statement in interrogation:
"Question: But you make this statement at the end of the oath, after everybody had raised his hand and made his oath. Did you way the following, 'You have expressed this oath.
A bad fellow who breaks it.'?
"Answer: Yes, I agree to that and I must say that I myself broke it.
"Question: Do you also say that at the time that you urged this upon the audience that you already were breaking it?
"Answer: I am sorry to say that internally I was very shaken in my loyalty already at that time, but I hoped that things would turn out well at the end."
A I am glad that you quote this. I am glad that you have quoted that because it confirmed clearly what I have just said; that I was in a state of doubt and that I still had some hope that everything would come out all right; that is to say, that Hitler would develop into the right direction, so it confirms exactly what I have just said. Schacht. truth, Mr. Justice. of course? the date? been issued began to become due, didn't they, in 1938 and 1939? been due at the earliest in June 1939. They only had been issued for five years and I assume that the first of these notes were issued in the Spring of 1934, so that the first one became due in the Spring of 1939.
Q Well, this is the question and answer. You correct. me if I am wrong.
"Q Well, did you in the Reichsbank utilize funds which were available?
Let me put it this way: As these MEFO bills became due, what did you do about them?
"A I asked the Minister of Finance whether he could some in 1938 or 1939, I think.
The first MEFO bills would have come to repayment and of course he said 'I can't'." You had that conversation with the Finance Minister while you were still president of the Reichsbank?
A Mr. Justice, you can be sure that you will understand that from the entire financial problem, we became worried as to whether we would got our bills paid or not; that is, our bonds, and I have explained to the Tribunal already that in the second half of the year 1938, the Finance Minister got into difficulties and he came to me in order to borrow funds; therefore, I told him "Listen, in what kind of a situation did you get? You will soon have to repay the first MEFO bills to us. Aren't you prepared for that?" And, now, it turned out that was in the Fall of 1938 that the Reich Finance Minister had not made any preparations in order to meet the payment of the MEFO bills and that, in the Fall of 1938, made the connection between the Reich Finance Minister and the Reichsbank extremely difficult.
Q Now, taxes didn't yield any sufficient revenue to discharge those bills, did it?
A Yes; I have explained yesterday already that risk which was in the MEFO bills, which I had admitted from the very beginning, that that was not really a risk connected with a reasonable finance policy; that is, from the year 1938, one would have not continued to arm and make unnecessary expenses but if, instead, one would have used money received from bonds and taxes for the repayment of the MEFO bills.
Q All I am asking you at the present moment, Dr. Schacht, is that these bills could not be paid out of the revenue from taxes.
Q They could have? but they were not repaid, but the money was used to continue rearming. May I say one more thing to explain it to you better and to inform you better? concerned with what kind of moss you were in.
Q The MEFO bills were due and could not be paid?
Q They were shortly to mature?
A Yes, but they could have been paid. That is a mistake if you say that they could not be paid.
Q Well, they couldn't be paid out of the current year's taxes, could they?
A Yes, indeed. You are not interested and don't want me to tell you, but I am quite ready to explain it. had produced unsatisfactory results, hadn't they?
A No, very little success. The capital market was not good. a shortage in the public subscription?
Q And the result had been unsatisfactory?
Q Now, did you not make this answer to the interrogator's question:
"Q But I am asking you whether during that period continue to finance armaments?
"A Sir, either these MEFO bills had to be refunded no money to do it, and I couldn't procure any money for course, I continued."
Did you give that answer? did not have the funds for repayment of the MEFO bills. He didn't use them for that purpose but for rearmaments.
If he had used this means to pay the MEFO bills, everything would have been all right. continue the plans of rearmament after 1938, didn't you?
A Mr. Justice, since I was like that, a large part of the MEFO bills was already in the open market, the money market and capital market. If that market, now, from the part of the government was too heavily taxed, when the people brought the MEFO bills to the Reichsbank and the Reichsbank had promised to cash them, that was the great obstruction to my policies by the policy of the Reich Finance Minister, which was based on the fact that the Reich Finance Minister financed armament instead, as he had promised to cash the MEFO bills. would result in your retirement from the Reichsbank?
Q Now, we come to Czechoslovakia. Did you favor the policy of acquiring the Sudetenland by threat of resort to arms? acquired as wrong and reprehensible.
A I don't know when I could have done that. I said that the Allied politics made the donation of the Sudetenland to Hitler, whereas I always had expected that the Sudeten Germans would get autonomy.
Q Then you approved of Hitler's policy in handling the Sudetenland situation? Is that what you want to be understood as saying? anything else. Allies, as I understand you?
A No, that also applies to the Caechs and maybe the Germans; I don't know; I certainly don't want to be the judge here. didn't make these replies to questions:
"Q Now, I am coming back to the march against Czechoslovakia which "A Yes.
"Q Did you at that time favor the policy of acquiring the Sudetenland?
"A No.
"Q Did you favor at that time the policy of threatening or menacing the Czechs by force of arms, so as to acquire the Sudetenland?
"A No, certainly not.
"Q Then I ask you, did it strike you at that time or did it come to the Czechs, was the Wehrmacht and the armament industry?
"A He could not have done it without the Wehmacht." Did you give those answers?
Q Continuing:
"Q Did you consider the manner in which he handled the Sudeten question, wrong or reprehensible?
"A Yes.
"Q You did?
"A Yes, sir.
"Q And did you have a feeling at that time, looking back on the in part an army of your own creation?
Did that ever strike you?
"A I cannot deny that, sir." with it, didn't you?
A How can you say such a thing? I could not know, I did not know that Hitler would need the army in order to threaten other nations. didn't you? territory, didn't you?
A But excuse me. He did not take it with violence. The Allies have given it to him. That had all been set led peacefully. and what part you played in the Wehrmacht.
Q No. What I mean is this, referring to your interrogation of the 17th of October.
"Q Now, after the Sudetenland was taken over by the Munich Sudeten territory?
"A I think we took over the affiliations of the Czech Bank of
Q And you also arranged for the currency conversation, did you not? by Hitler, didn't you?
A It is not a wrong and reprehensible act of Hitler. He didn't commit any such act but Hitler, in the way of contract, has received the Sudeten German area and, of course, the currency and the institute which issued the currency had to be amalgamated with German institutions. There is no possibility to speak of injustice. I cannot believe that the Allies would have put their signature to an injustice.
Q So you think that everything up to Munich was all right?
A No. I am certainly of different opinions; there was much injustice. Prague "the beautiful City of Prague"? Wehrmacht?
Q You didn't think that was right dealing, then?
Q Well, we found something we agree on, Doctor. You knew of the invasion of Poland?
Q As an unqualified act of aggression on Hitler's part?
Q The same was true of the invasion of Luxembourg?
Q And of Holland?
Q And of Denmark?
Q And of Norway?
Q And of Yugoslavia?
Q And of Russia?
AAbsolutely, sir; and Norway and Belgium, which you left out.
Q Yes; well, I got to the end of my paper. The entire course was a course of aggression? macht which you had so much to do with creating?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I intend to take up another subject. It is almost time to recess.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess now.
(A recess was taken) 6-1
THE MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, the report is made that defendant von Neurath is absent. BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
Q Dr. Schacht, in your direct testimony you made reference to a film, which was taken an exhibited in Germany for propaganda purposes, of your demeanor on the occasion of Hitler's return after the fall of France.
A May I correct that? I did not speak about this film, but my counsel; and that it was used for propaganda purposes has not been mentioned here. My lawyer merely said that it had been displayed during a newreel presentation. There fore it probably ran for about one week.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask to exhibit that film to the Tribunal. It is a very brief film, and the movement in it is very rapid. There is very little of translation involved in it, but the speed of it is such that for myself I had to see it twice in order to really see what it is.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to put it on now?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I would like to put it on now. It will take only a moment, and Dr. Schacht should be placed where he can see it, for I want to ask him some questions], and particularly I may ask you to identify the persons in it, I will ask, if I may, to have it shown twice so that you may be able to see it nore.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly. (At this point the film referred to by Mr. Justice Jackson was shown.)
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think that I, in mentioning this exhibit, which I wish to offer in evidence, spoke of it as a "propaganda film". That was not the language of Dr. Dix. Dr. Dix described it as a "weekly newsreel" and as a "weekly film." many of the defendants as you recognized present in that picture? was there. However, I should assume that almost all of them were present. That is from my memory, not from this film. Either following Hitler or among those who received him. action in taking over the Czechoslovakian Bank, you made a speech, did you not, on 29 November 1938?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It is document EC 611, US 622. I am advised that the film became USA Exhibit 835, and before I pass from it, I would like to offer the statement as to the personality of Hermann Goering, which is US document 3936 PS, as US Exhibit 836.
Q In this speech of 29 November 1938, Dr. Schacht, if I am correctly informed -- and by the way, it was a public speech was it not? public. If it passed the censorship. it probably was mentioned in the papers. It was public: anyone could have listened to me.
"It ispossible that no bank of issue in peace times carried on such a daring credit policy as the Reichsbank since the seizure of power by National Socialism. With the aid of this credit policy, however, Germany created an armament second to none, and this armament in turn made possible the results of our policy."
Is that correct?
A That is absolutely correct, and I was very much surprised. Please let me finish. I was very much surprised that it was necessary to do this in order to get justice in the world.
Q The taking over of Czechoslovakia representing your idea of justice?
but that that country was presented to Germany by the Allies on a trade. demning it? I can not get your position, Doctor. Will you just tell us were you for it; are you for it today, or against it?
A Will you please tellme again what I am for or what I am against? done.
A I can not answer your question forthis reason: That it was not a taking over; it was a present. If some one gives me a present, such as this, I accept it gratefully.
Q Even though it doesn't belong to them to give?
A Well, of course, that is up to the donor. They must judge that. the gift?
Q Well, we will pass on to your speech. Did you say also:
"Instead of a weak and vacillating government, a single, purposeful, energetic personality is ruling today. That is the great miracle which has actually happened in Germany and which has had it's effect on all field s of life and not least in that of economy and finance. There is no German financial miracle. There is only the miracle of the reawakening of German national consciousness and German discipline and we owe this miracle to our Fuehrer Adolf Hitler."
Did you say that?
A Certainly. That was my great surprise.
Q As Minister without Portfolio, what did your Ministry consist of?
Q What employees did you have?
Q What space did you occupy? office rooms.
Q So the government did not even furnish you an office? Portfolio?
A I do not understand. Whom was I supposed to have met?
Q Did you have any meetings? Did you have any official meetings to attend? from the Reichsbank, I never had a single meeting or conference at all, official or otherwise.
Q Did anybody report to you, or did you report to anybody? to anybody else. position? the time that Hitler came back from France, and you attended the reception for him at the railway station?
Q And went to the Reichstag to hear his speech? Reichsbank, the government continued to pay you your full salary until the end of 1942, did it not:
A I stated yesterday that that is not correct. I received my salary from the Reichsbank, which was due to me by contract. A ministerial salary was not paid to me. I believe that as Minister I received certain representative funds. However, I did not receive a salary as Minister. 1945 and ask you whether you gave these answers to these questions on that interrogation:
"Question: What salary did you receive as Minister without Portfolio?
"Answer: I could not tell you exactly. I think it was some 24,000 marks--20,000 or 24,000 marks. I can not tell you exactly, but it was accounted on the salary and afterwards on the pension I got from the Reichsbank so I was not paid twice.
"Question: In other words, the salary that you received as Minister without Portfolio during the period you were also President of the Reichsbank was deducted from the Reichsbank?
"Answer: yes.
"Question: However, after you severed your connection with the Reichsbank in January 1939, did you receive the whole salary?
"Answer: I received the whole salary because my contract was still running until the end of 1942.
"Question: So you received a full salary until the end of 1942?
"Answer: Full salary and no extra salary, but from the first of January 1942 I got my pension from the Reichsbank, and again the salary of the Ministry was deducted from that, or vice versa. Which was higher, I do not know; I got a 30,000 mark pension from the Reichsbank." answers as follows:
"Question: What was the date of your contract?
"Answer: 1937. From March 17, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942. Four years. Four years contract.
"Question: You were really then given a four year appointment?
"Answer: That is what I told you. After 1942 I got a pension from the Reichsbank.
"Question: What was the amount of your salary and all other income from the Reichsbank?
"Answer: All the income from the Reichsbank, including my fees for representation, amount to 60,000 marks a year, and the pension is 24,000. Y ou see, I had a short contract but a high pension.
As Reichsminister without Portfolio, I had another, I think also 20,000 or 24,000 marks."
Now, is that correct?
A The salaries on paper are not correctly cited here. I have claimed there that I was only paid by one source. I have been asked, "What salary did you receive as Reich Minister?" I have stated that. However, I never received it. It was merely deducted from my Reichsbank salary. And a pension, as I see it here, is quoted wrongly. In one case I believe I had 24,000 marks pension, while it was said here that it was 30,000 marks. In my own money affairs I am not as correct as I am with my official money affars. However, I have been paid only once, and that is mainly by the Reichsbank, and that also has not been stated correctly, and that was not until the end of '42, the end of June of '42, that my contract was terminated. Then the pension began and this pension also was paid only once. How those two, that is the Ministry and Reichsbank, set off these amounts against each other is unknown to me. offset against the other; is that what you mean? regime?
A That is still in existence today. It has nothing to do with the regime. I hope that I will still receive my pension; how else could I pay my expenses?
Q Well, they may not be very heavy. Doctor.
When General Book resigned, he asked you to resign?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute, it is quite unnecessary for anyone present in Court to show their amusement by laughter. BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
Q (Continuing) Were you asked to resign when General Book resigned?
A No, he didn't say that.
Q Have you in mind the testimony given by Gisevius here?
A Yes. It was an error by Gisevius. sharply to your attention?
retirement. I assume that was about the end of August or the beginning of September of the year of 1938. should resign along with Beck?
A No, nothing was said about that. Beck saw me in my room and he never mentioned anything of this sort, and we never debated it. way of expressing your protest against these things which you now say you disapprove? put through those things which have to be done and I regretted it very much that Beck retired. Those things which happened were caused by an entirely false policy. This policy was partly forced upon us. We did not handle it properly. In February Neurath was dismissed. In fall Beck stopped out. In January, 1939, I was dismissed. It was alwaysone after the other who was thrown out, if it had been possible. In our group, if I may speak of a group, what we had hoped for and expected, that is to undertake a common action, would have been an excellent thing. However, these individual retirements had no use whatsoever; at least they had no success. to the head of state? the period until the fall of France to hold yourself out as a part of the government and a part of the regime, didn't you?
A "Well, I never have considered myself apart of the regime because I was against it. However, of course, I also, beginning in fall of 1938, worked towards my own retirement, as soon as I recognized that Hitler did not stop the rearmament but continued it, and my own inabilityto act against it
Q Well, when did you start working towards your own retirement?
A Pardon me; I did not get you. office? stropping of rearmament by Hitler was not to be expected by us, that we could not prevent a continuation of the rearmament, that is when we started within our circle of the directorate of the Reichsbank to talk about this question and to formulate plans that a course of continued rearmament was nothing for us to be connected with; that is the last quarter of the year 1938.