MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will offer the remaining photographs, 1, 6 and 7, under the same number.
Q So that it would appear, Dr. Schacht, that a good deal of your present company was the company that started with you in 1933 and '34?
A Is that a question?
Q Well, is that not true?
A No. If you would photograph me together with my other acquaintances just as often, then your power would be ten times as high. there were reasons of principle why you did not become a Party member and that Party membership would not be compatible with your principles?
A That's right. that from 1932 to the 30th of January, 1933 -- I am quoting:
"I have not written or spoken a single word publicly for Hitler."
A I think that's right, if you emphasize "publicly".
Q You must emphasize "publicly"?
Q I want yet to ask you about the next thing. You also said:
"I have never in any way contributed by conversations with any one of the competent gentlemen, be it Hindenburg, Meissner, or anyone else, to exert any influence in favor of Hitler, and I had nothing to do and did not participate in any way in the nomination of Hitler to Reich Chancellory".
Is that correct? order to understand it correctly? of Hitler, and, please note, competent men.
Q Well, I don't just know what you mean by that, but I'll give you a chance to explain.
A Yes. When I say "competent", I mean those people who could decide upon who was to be chancellor. Of course, I did say that Hitler would be chancellor and should become chancellor and in private circles -
Q Did you say that in public?
A No, I've only said that in a circle of my friends from the economic field.
"I remember in July or August, when I was sitting in my home as chancellor of Germany, in 1932, when Schacht came to see me, he said, 'Here's a very intelligent man', and it was in the presence of my wife and I have never forgetten it. He said, 'Give him your place. Give it to Hitler. He is the only man who can save Germany'."
Did you say that or didn't you?
A I don't know whether I said that he was the only man who could save Germany, but I did tell him that Hitler shall and will become chancellor. But that was as soon as August in 1932, after the July elections, and it has nothing to do with Hitler's nomination, which didn't take place until after the Schleicher Cabinet, something in connection with which I have been examined here; it has nothing to do with that.
Q Now, Dr. Schacht, I just asked you if you had not testified that you had nothing to do with his coming to the Chancellorship and you said -him and -to about this -- do you contend that that was not aiding Hitler to the Chancellorship?
A I don't know whether it was a help for Hitler. During my examination here, I have been asked whether, in connection with Hitler's election or nomination for the Chancellorship in January, 1933, I had exerted any kind of influence. I have given the names of Hindenburg, Meissner, and so forth, that is to say, the very circle that was around Hindenburg. Papen, in the beginning of November, 1932, was no longer chancellor; so that he had no influence whatever upon these matters. And during those weeks I didn't talk to Papen at all. But, after the elections of '32, I said, "It is inevitable that aman who has so many votes in the Reichstag must take over the political lead, and for Papen to give it to Hitler."
Q When you saw Hitler was going to win you joined him?
Q Well, I'll just make it clear what you do mean. You did not assist him until he had already accumulated more votes than any other Party in the Reichstag? had found out that he had won.
Q Oh, well, I'll accept the amendment.
You've referred to your letter to Hitler on the 29th of August, 1932, -economic program? could agree?
Q And that economic policy is not a factor for building up a party?
Q And you added that "You can also count on me as your reliable assistant"; did you not?
Q And then that was after he had won?
Q Yes, I just want to refer to that document as EC-457. Now, then, on the 12 of November, 1932, you wrote to him, in which you said, among other things, "I have no doubt that the present development of things can only lead to your becoming Chancellor?"
Q "It seems as if our attempt to collect a number of signatures from principal circles for this purpose was not altogether in vain."
Q So you are collecting signatures for this purpose?
Q And thay was EC-457. Now, as of November, 1932, a document was prepared for a large number of industrialists to sign urging the selection of Hitler as Chancellor in substance, was there not?
A I don't know the document any more, but I assume that it's the document to which the letter refers. rialists signed that document, did they not?
Q And it was sent to von Hindenburg?
A That I don't know.
Q Well, the purpose was to aid Hitler in obtaining the Chancellorship?
A That's possible.
Q It is addressed to the Reich President, is it not? That is 3910*PS
A I have not seen it, but it's probably correct.
Q Well, you don't deny that that occured, do you?
A I assume that it's correct, I havn't the least doubt, I don't doubt it at al money-raising campaign, did you not?
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Well, I'll remind you from your own interrogation. Well, I'll remind you, first, of your testimony, in which you say that it appears that you did not plead for funds but that Goering pleaded for funds, and I ask you if you did or not, on the 9th of October, 1945, give these answers to these questions as to the event of February, 1933?
Q Going back to 1933. This is the question.
"Prior to the time that Hitler appointed you as president of the Reichsbank, do you recall a meeting in the home of Goering?" Answer: "Yes. That was a financial meeting. I have been interrogated about that several times already."
Question: "Tell me about it?"
Answer: "Yes, I will. Hitler had to go to the election on the 5th of March, if you will remember and for these elections he wanted me to do the campaigning. He asked me to procure the money and I did that. Goering called these men together and I made a speech -- not a speech, for Hitler made the speech -- but I asked him to write down the amounts and to subscribe for the elections which they did. They subscribed the amount of $3,000,000 all together, and they distributed the amounts among themselves."
"Who were the people who made up that subscription list?
Answer: "I think that all of them were bankers and industrialists, chemical industrialists, iron industries, textile industries, all of that. They represented the industries and all of the other big industries."
"Do you recall any specific names?"
"The old gentleman Krupp was there, Gustav I think it was. Schnitzler, I think it was, was there, and Vogler for the United States steel works."
Did you give that testimony? D-203 I should say, which is a record of the meeting, and at that meeting Goering said this in substance, did he not?
"The sacrifice asked for would be so much easier for the German people to bear if they realize that the election of March 5 would surely be the last one for the next 10 years, possibly even for the next 100 years."
You heard that, did you not? about your opinion and about the tribute that Goebbels paid to you and you said to the Court, "It is not my fault if Mr. Goebbels made a mistake." Do you recall that?
Q And I ask you, in regard to the tribute of Dr. Goebbels, if you didn't say this to the interrogator of the United States on 17 October 1945, which is USA Exhibit No. 616.
"When did you become interested in becoming a co-worker of Hitler?"
Answer: ''I'd say in the years of 1931, 1932.
Question: "And that was when you saw that he had a mass movement that was likely to take power?"
Answer: ''Quite, that was increasing every time," Question:
''And did you publicly record your support for Hitler in those years?"
Answer: "I think I made a statement in December, 1930, once coming back from America, at the Bavarian People's party, where I said that there was a choice for any future German Government, either to hold against 25% socialists, or against 20% National Socialists."
Question: "Bat what I mean -- to make it very brief indeed -- did you lend the prestige of your name to help Hitler come to power?"
Answer: "I have publicly stated that I expected Hitler to come into power, far the first time that I remember, in November, 1932."
Question: ''And you know, or perhaps you don't that Goebbels in his diary, records with great affection -
Answer: "Yes."
Question: "The help that you gave him at the time?"
Answer: "Yes, I know that.
Question: "November, 1932?"
Answer: And you quote the book here, "From the Kaiserhof to the Chancellery and back."
Question: "That's right; you have read that?"
Answer: "Yes."
Question: "And you don't deny that Goebbels was right?"
Answer: "I think his impression was, that was correct at that time."
Did you give that testimony?
A Yes. I never doubted that Goebbels was wrong, I only said that he was mistaken. Dodd, a day or two before, did you not?
Q And let's have this understood. Ambassador Dodd was considered, and at all times, opposed to the entire Nazi outfit, wasn't he? outfit? Dodd invited you to go to the United States of America and you said, I am quoting from page 8670 of the record:
"At that time, which was 1937, "he again called on me and told me urgently that I should go with him, or as soon after him as possible, to America, to change my residence to America; that I would find a very pleasant welcome in America. I believe he would never have said that to me if he had not had a certain degree of friendship for me.
You said that to the Tribunal, didn't you?
impression that Ambassador Dodd had greet confidence in you and greet friendship for you?
Q Had you read the entire diary?
A Yes. I also know of a passage where he said that I would make a very bad American.
Q You didn't mention that to the Tribunal. the date of December 21, 1937, where he speaks of the luncheon at which you were present. He said:
"Schacht spoke of the defeat of Germany in 1918 as already due to Woodrow Wilson bringing America into the World War, but he said Wilson's Fourteen Points were the one great promise of international peace and cooperation and every country on both sides helped to defeat his purpose."
"Don't you think Wilson, 50 years from now, will be pointed out as one of the greatest men?"
Answer: "He made an impression but turned his attention to the Japanese-China war, and also the German alliance to Japan."
Quoting you: "If the United States would stop the Japanese War and let Germany have her way in Europe, we would have world peace."
A What is the question?
Q Did you say that?
A I don't know whether I said it, but even today it seems an extremely reasonable statement. I am of that opinion.
Q Now, let's get this straight. As I understand you, you were going to have world peace if Germany was left to have her own way in Europe?
A Yes. May I also add to that that my suggestion would have been of a peaceful one.
"I did not comment, and others also failed to make remarks. Belgium."
Q "In six weeks, my division, and armies of neighboring little countries, especially North and East."
AAm I to reply?
Q That's what Dodd says about you.
A Yes, but I didn't say it. May I reply to it?
Q I ask you this question. That is the impression received over the course of your activities with Mr. Dodd whom you -- a man of your description -- describe as being a decent fellow and a friend of yours.
A May I answer to that myself, that I have stated that Mr. Dodd became the victim of many misunderstandings, that in this case too he misunderstood me, he does not say that I said it, he said, that's what Schacht meant. That was his opinion. I have never said that at all.
Q As I understand it, then, it was the estimate of a friend?
AA friend obviously who was continually misunderstood. Ambassador Henderson, was also misunderstood. Nazi outfit. go to the United States, or have some one go to the United States, you testified, on page 8708 of the record, that you told Hitler this:
"It seems vital to me that one should have some one constantly in America who could clarify German interests in the place abroad. In America, that is."
Did you say that?
Q Now, is that what you actually said to Hitler?
Q Now, I call your attention to your own letter, No. 3700-PS to the Reich Marshal.
"In the beginning of 1940, I proposed to the Fuehrer that I go to the United States in order to attempt to slow down America's assistance to England in the matter of armaments, and in order, if possible, to prevent America becoming involved in the war more deeply."
I ask you, which of these is true? the conversation of that day, that you had reason to be in the United States, did you?
A No, certainly not. I was to try to get the President to intervene for peace. That's something I haven't mentioned either.
extent, the type and the speed of the rearmament. Do you recall that? much? Blomberg. It concerns 1937.
Question: "At that time, the frame of the planned Wehrmacht was about fulfilled.
Answer: "When?"
Question: "1937."
Answer: "I believe it was 1937."
Question: "Was that a plan that had been discussed with Doctor Schacht in connection with the finances establishing how big the Wehrmacht would be?"
Answer: "Yes. The plan for the formation of the Wehrmacht Schacht knew very well since we gave him every year the setting up of how many formations for which we had been spending money. All new formations for which we had been spending money. I remember in the year 1937 it was discussed, what should the Wehrmacht get for carrying expenses? After, a great amount was spent to build it up.
Question: "That means that you gave Schacht a clear statement of how much money you were putting into the creation of new instruments and so forth, and how much you were using for the operating expenses of the Wehrmacht?"
Answer: "Exactly right."
Question: "When you say that by 1937 the plan had been fulfilled, do you mean in the main?"
Answer: "In the main."
Another question. I skip two or three irrelevant ones.
"When you say that Schacht was familiar with these figures, how were they brought to his attention?"
Answer: "The demands that they made were handed to Schacht in writing."
Question: "That means, in connection with the monies which Schacht was arranging for the rearmament program, he was informed of how many divisions and how many tanks would be procured through those monies?"
Answer: "I don't think we put down the amount of money we needed for tanks and so forth, but we put down how certain parts of the Wehrmacht like the Navy and the Air force needed and then how much this required for activation and how much for operating. That is, Doctor Schacht could see each year how much of an increase there would be in the size of the armed forces as a result of the money he was procuring. That is certain." have put them to you? A member of the Reichsbank Directorate will be testifying tomorrow, and I ask that you put this matter to him so that the question will be clarified. All of this was unknown to me.
Q I don't care whether you know or whether you don't know about this. I am asking you these questions so that I can find out how far I can rely on your answers.
Q You deny von Blomberg was telling the truth? That he reported to you in writing those facts?
A Never. I have to deny it, obviously. I do not remember anything in this connection. New Plan had nothing to do with the armament program, did you not?
A Nothing in particular with the armament, no. The Tribunal asked especially that I was not to discuss it until my cross-examination. I am only too wiling now to. . .
Q You have no objection to answering my question, have you? not allowed to give--which is on page 8732 of the record.
Question: "Some new policies which have been accused of being in preparation for war, were the so-called "New Plans". What was that?" And your answer:
"May I first of all say that the New Plan had nothing at all to do with armament." in order to cut down testimony, and I am asking you only this question:
"Did you not say, in your speech on the "Miracle of Finance", on the 29th of November, 1938, after quoting a great collection of figures, "These figures show how much the New Plan would be to the execution of the rearmament program as well as to the securing of our food."
Did you say that or didn't you?
didn't have anything to do socially with Hitler or with the other Nazis, that you refused their invitation to luncheon at the Reichschancellory, and one of the chief reasons was that those present showed such abject humility to Hitler. Did you say that?
Q Now, I want to read to you from your speech, document No.501-EC, your inaugural speech on the occasion of the Fuehrer's birthday. This was a public speech, by the way, wasn't it?
A I don't know. I don't remember.
Q You made a speech on the Fuehrer's birthday on the 21st of April, 1937, carried in the newspapers?
Q "We are meeting together here to remember with respect and love the man to whom the German people entrusted the control of its destiny more then four years ago." And then, after some other remarks, you say, "with the limitless pasion of a burning heart and infallible instinct of a born statesman, Adolf Hitler has won for himself the soul of the German people."
Was that a part of your published and public speech?
A I assume that you quoted it perfectly correctly. I don't think that anyone, on the occasion of the birthday celebration of the head of a state, could say anything very much different from that. But, Mr. Justice, may I make one request. You have discussed the new plan, whereas the Tribunal was waiting and had decided that I should discuss it here in cross examination. reexamination by my solicitor.
Q I did not ask you what the new plan was; I asked whether your statement that it had nothing to do with armaments was true or not. But if your solicitor wants to ask about it, it is open to ruling by the Tribunal. You quoted today Hitler's letter of the 19th of January, 1939, in which you were dismissed from the presidency of the Reichsbank, and you did not quote the concluding sentence, as I recall it, which reads: "I am happy to be able to avail myself of your services for the solution of new tasks in your position as Reich Minister." That is a correct quotation, is it not?
A I refer to the witness Gisevius' statements here in this courtroom, who already said that outwardly Hitler would never indicate that there was trouble between him and his officials, but that he always tried to paint a different picture to the world than the correct one. Not on any single occasion after January 1939 was I asked my opinion or cooperation by Hitler.
Q Were you asked by anyone else?
A No. The occasions when I was asked have been quoted by me this morning. That was in connection with Belgium and in connection with the periodical "Das Reich." I think that was all.
Q And you performed no function whatever in relation to Belgium? Reich Minister for Economics, document E6-504. At that time you had ceased to be president of the Reichsbank, had you not.
A Yes. I was only a minister without portfolio.
Q "In order to avoid a working side-by-side, that is, a working against each other, of the German banks in the occupied western territories, you had assigned the German bank the task of clearing the way for a closer economic cooperation with Holland, and you had entrusted the Dresden Bank with the same task for Belgium." And you go on to describe the situation and say:
"In order now to remove this difficulty, you, Herr Reich Minister, have declared yourself in agreement that the undersigned has followed the requests of the two banking houses for an objective expression of opinion in this question at hand. I have subsequently talked over the situation with the two banks and have found it proven in the course of the conversation that at present no tendency exists with the Dutch or Belgian financial institutions to enter into general obligations toward the German business friends."
Do you recall?
A Yes, I remember it now, now that you have read it to me. May I make a statement, or what was your question?
A Yes, and in that case may I have permission to make a statement on it?
A I should think so; but, of course, I am leaving that to the Tribunal. If I may speak then I should like to say that there was rivalry between the two leading banks. These two big banks had approached me as a former banker and president of the Reichsbank, asking me to decide the matter Which was outstanding between the two, and so I did. I didn't really understand what that has to do with the official participation in the Belgian administration. in occupied countries between the banking interests of the occupied countries and the German banks, was it not?
Q Yes. Although you have said to the Tribunal that you were entirely opposed to the Germans being in there at all?
A But yes, of course. But now that they were there I was trying to work for peace. known as the "Hitler spending fund", were you not?
Q You never were? connected with -
A Yes, I know the letter; I know the letter.
Q You never received such a letter? that donation.
Q Well, you assisted in raising it, didn't you?
Q Did you contribute to it?
A I personally, certainly not. I don't know what you are accusing me of.
A Yes. And I am asking you what are you accusing no of. please ask me.
von Bohlen in May of 1933 - the Hitler spending fund?
Q How did you answer Krupp von Bohlen's letter asking you to do so? Krupp read to me at the time?
Q Have you the letter of the 29th of May?
A Yes. But just one moment, please. I have nearly finished. And now may I reply?
Q First of all, did you receive such a letter"
Q All right. Tell us what happened. other economic circles, such as agriculture etc., have the intention of organizing a joint Hitler donation, so as to terminate the wild Party collections which were making the country unsafe in every corner. They wanted to unify them and collect them together in one collection. He was informing me of this, and here in this letter he is also telling me that an administration for this Hitler donation was to be appointed, and I want to say that I have never joined the administration or was a member of it. And then he also informs me that a representative of the banks, namely, Dr. Fischer and Dr. Mosler, would get into touch with me about these matters and inform me about the matters. That is all that letter says.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That I will offer as United States Exhibit 831. which says they had the opportunity of mentioning it to you?
A Just a second. I don't think the letter is contained here in my document book. No, it is not here.
(A paper was handed to the witness.)
Q I asked you to read the letter of the 29th of May first; one of the 29th of May and one of the 30th. The letter of the 29th of May has not been translated.
A (In English) I see. Just a minute. I read.
(Pause) (Through the interpreter) This letter did not reach me. It has been crossed out here. Apparently it wasn't sent, becasue a verbal conversation between Krupp and Dr Hoettgen and myself had taken place, to which Krupp is referring in the letter of the following day, the 30th of May; and there the letter begins, "As Dr. Hoettgen, and I had the opportunity of mentioning to you yesterday..." That apparently was a conversation we had had.
Q And you had also said, "You were kind enough to promise me to obtain from Messrs Otto Christian Fischer and Dr. Mosler full particulars and especially on how far banks, which are public corporations, can participate in this task."
A No, Mr. Justice Jackson, it doesn't say that in the letter. Please, will you be good enough to read the letter of the 29th of May? That doesn't say I was talking to Doctor Fischer or would speak to Fischer and Mosler.
Q Do you deny receiving the letter of the 29th?
Q You never received it? Halbach, the substance of which is set forth in that letter?