THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks the question is relevant but should be put without detail.
DR. DIX: I will put the question without detail, and I would like to say that of course I could not name myself alongside America, but it is my intention also to keep political matters out of this. It is not a matter of foreign politics that I want to ask about, so it will be only the one question. BY DR. DIX: regime, from abroad, have on the work of your group of conspirators? numerous statesmen from almost all other nations came to Berlin to visit Hitler, including some crowned heads. From America, for instance, Under Secretary of State Phillips was there.
A I only said that because there was mention of names. It is not limited to Europe. I do not intend to make any political explanations, but I only say that so many visits were made which meant recognition for Hitler, not only recognition but the honoring of Hitler, that this man appeared a great man in the eyes of the German people. Amanulla, was the first foreigner who visited the Social Democratic Government in Berlin, and there was a great deal of excitement that for the first time now after a long time, a great man from another country came to us. But here, in the case of Hitler, from 1935 on there was one visit after another, and Hitler went from one foreign political success to the other, which made enlightenment among the German people extremely difficult and made it impossible to work in the service of that enlightenment within the German nation. who said that the moment had to come when the servants of Hitler would have to refuse to follow him. We shall try to accept that way of thinking, and I ask you: Are you of the opinion that you yourself accepted that view?
A I do not only accept it, but I approve of it. From the very moment when I recognized what a harmful individual Hitler was, what a threat to world peace, I separated myself from him in every way, not only secretly, but publicly and personally. possible, after coming to the correct understanding, to try to save humanity from the disaster of this war, or to alleviate the consequences? that sense than I did. I warned against excessive armament. My economic policies tried to impede, and, if you want to say so, sabotage actual armament. I resigned from the Ministry against the will of Hitler; I protested against all perpetrations of the Party, with Hitler and publicly; I continuously warned people abroad and informed them; I attempted to influence the policy of other nations with respect to the colonial question, and to achieve a more peaceful atmosphere.
DR. DIX: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I ask to be permitted one sentence: I finally tried to remove Hitler.
DR. DIX: Gentlement, I am now at the end of my presentation, and I have only one request, During the last few days, I have received a large number of letters from people who know Schacht, among them also affidavits. I will examine them, and if I should be of the opinion that one or the other may be relevant, then I will get in touch with the Prosecution and discuss with them whether they have any objection to having them translated so that then we can approach the Tribunal in order to submit one document or another, if necessary, not to have it read, just to have it put in evidence.
May I request that this be granted to me. Then, at the end of my entire presentation, I will briefly submit my documents, the rest of my documents. This is only a part of my documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN (Counsel for defendant von Neurath): I have only a few questions to Dr. Schacht. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN:
Q Since when have you known Mr. von Neurath, Dr. Schacht?
impression? considered it a very evil sign for the departure from an attempted policy of understanding.
DR. VON. LEUDINGHAUSEN: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do other defendant's counsel want to ask questions?
Does the Prosecution desire to cross-examine?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I imagine it may save time, Your Honor, if we could take a recess at this time. It is a little early, I know, but it will take some time to arrange our material.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly.
(A recess was taken.)
MR JUSTICE JACKSON: May it please the Tribunal. BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
Q. Dr. Schacht, according to the transcipt of the testimony, at page 8698, you said that in 1938 you told a certain lade when you were dining, "My deer lady, we have fallen into the hands of criminals. How could I ever have suspected that!" Do you recall that testimony?
A. It wasn't I who gave that testimony; it came from an affidavit submitted by my Defense Counsel here, but it is correct.
Q. I am sure you want to help the Tribunal by saying who they were.
A. Hitler and his cooperators.
Q. Well, you were there; you know who the cooperators were. I ask you to name all that you put in that category of criminals with Hitler. Hitler is de*
A. Mr. Justice, it is very hard for me to answer that question completely because I do not know who was in that conspiracy, around Hitler. The Defendant Goering has told us here that he counts himself amongst that group, and there was Bormann, but who else was contained in that narrow circle of confidencemen -- that is something I don't know.
Q. You have only named three men as criminals, two of whom are dead and one of whom you say admitted -
A. I may add one more, if you let me. I assume that the Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop, too, must also have been in the picture regarding Hitler's pla I must assume that, but of course, can't prove it.
Q. Whom else did you include when you were talking to the lady?
A. On that evening I didn't mention any names.
Q. But whom did you have in mind? You surely were not making charges against your own people, who were in charge of your own government, without having definite names in mind.
A. I have taken the liberty of mentioning the names to you.
Q. Are those all?
A. I don't know it, but I assume there must have been more. I would add without hesitation, Heydrich. But I can't know with whom Hitler dealt. I repeat, I would like to see them die some other way, but there it is.
Q. Are those the only people you included?
A. I have no evidence to the effect that anyone else was in amongst those conspirators and I can't say about anybody that this or that proof exists, that he must have been amongst them.
Q. Now, Dr. Schacht, at the time the Nazis seized power you had a worldwide acquaintance and very great standing as a leading banker in Germany and in the world, did you not?
A. I don't know whether that is so, but if it is your own opinion I shan't contradict you.
Q Well, at first you would admit that?
A Yes, I think so; I shan't contradict you. the German people in support of the Nazi regime, alongside of characters such as Streicher and Bormann.
A Mr. Justice, I have taken the liberty of explaining here in this court room that until July, 1932, I did not in any way make public propaganda for Hitler or the Party and that, to the contrary, I warned the people against him in America. I always said that the name Bormann was, of course, unknown to me at the time, and Streicher's paper, "Der Sturmer," was just as revolting to me before that time as afterward. I didn't think I had anything in common with Mr. Streicher.
Q I didn't cither, but that is why I wondered about your appearing with him publicly after the Nazi machine was consolidated.
A (Something not heard.)
Q I didn't get the answer.
A What did I do? Bormann in support of the Nazi program after the seizure of power.
A I shouldn't think so. I never was seen together with Mr. Streicher or Mr. Bormann -- certainly not at that time. It is quite possible he attended the same Party rallies I attended or that I sat next to him, but at any rate in 1933 I was never in any way publicly seen with Streicher or Bormann. marked No. 10. Yuo have no difficulty recognizing yourself in that, do you?
Q And on the right sits Bormann?
Q And next to him the Minister of Labor?
Q And on the other side of you is Hitler?
Q And beyond him, Streicher?
A I can't recognize him; I don't know whether it is Streicher or not, but I don't suppose it matters.
MR JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I will offer the photograph in evidence. Perhaps the identification will be sufficient.
Q Frick is also in the picture?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This becomes Exhibit 829.
THE PRESIDENT: Justice Jackson, what is the date of that Photograph?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There is no date given on the photographs.
Perhaps the witness can tell us.
A Mr. Justice, you said that in 1933 I had shown myself publicly together with Streicher and Bormann as a representative of the National Socialist Party, and I should like to know, therefore, where this picture was taken and when. I can't verify that.
Q I asked you. Do you deny this is a photograph -
A No, no, no. By no means. I am merely asking which period it originates from. I think this does not apply to 1933 or 1934.
Q When was it, if you want to tell us?
A I don't know; I can't tell you. Nos. 3 and 4. No. 3 shows you marching with Dr. Robert Ley among others. the Nazi salute.
A Yes, that's right. Germany?
Q And those are correct photographs, are they not?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I offer them in evidence.
Q I will show you photographs marked Nos. 1 and 2 and 6 -- and 7. Now let us look at No. 1. Do you recall where that was taken? Yes. I think No. 1 is a picture from the Reich Chancellery, if I am not mistaken.
Q Among the persons appearing in No. 1 is Frick?
others, and Hitler in the middle.
Q von Neurath?
A Neurath, yes; I think he is immediately on Hitler's right, in the background.
Q Goebbels? with only a part of his body showing.
A Who is that?
A I beg your pardon. perhaps I have a different picture. I beg your pardon. I was looking at No. 2. on No. 2 I see from left to right, Popitz, Rust, Goering, Neurath, Hitler, Blomberg, Schacht, Guertner, Krosigk, Elz von Ruebenach, and then at the very back on the right, Funk.
Q And let's take No. 7. Whom do you identify as your company in that photograph?
A On the extreme left, my late wife; then the vicepresident of the Reichsbank, Reise; and Hitler; and myself. well, I don't know who he is. foundation of the new Reichsbank building was laid. It was in 1934. And directly behind me, on the right, is Blomberg.
Q And No. 6?
A Just a minute. That is the picture when I walked alongside Hitler, is that right? That is Hitler's march, in my company, on the occasion of the laying of the foundation of the new Reichsbank building. Behind me, or rather behind Hitler, you can see Geheimrat Vocke, who is to appear as a witness here tomorrow, and several other gentlemen from the directors of the Reichsbank.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will offer the remaining photographs, 1, 6 and 7, under the same number.
Q So that it would appear, Dr. Schacht, that a good deal of your present company was the company that started with you in 1933 and '34?
A Is that a question?
Q Well, is that not true?
A No. If you would photograph me together with my other acquaintances just as often, then your power would be ten times as high. there were reasons of principle why you did not become a Party member and that Party membership would not be compatible with your principles?
A That's right. that from 1932 to the 30th of January, 1933 -- I am quoting:
"I have not written or spoken a single word publicly for Hitler."
A I think that's right, if you emphasize "publicly".
Q You must emphasize "publicly"?
Q I want yet to ask you about the next thing. You also said:
"I have never in any way contributed by conversations with any one of the competent gentlemen, be it Hindenburg, Meissner, or anyone else, to exert any influence in favor of Hitler, and I had nothing to do and did not participate in any way in the nomination of Hitler to Reich Chancellory".
Is that correct? order to understand it correctly? of Hitler, and, please note, competent men.
Q Well, I don't just know what you mean by that, but I'll give you a chance to explain.
A Yes. When I say "competent", I mean those people who could decide upon who was to be chancellor. Of course, I did say that Hitler would be chancellor and should become chancellor and in private circles -
Q Did you say that in public?
A No, I've only said that in a circle of my friends from the economic field.
"I remember in July or August, when I was sitting in my home as chancellor of Germany, in 1932, when Schacht came to see me, he said, 'Here's a very intelligent man', and it was in the presence of my wife and I have never forgetten it. He said, 'Give him your place. Give it to Hitler. He is the only man who can save Germany'."
Did you say that or didn't you?
A I don't know whether I said that he was the only man who could save Germany, but I did tell him that Hitler shall and will become chancellor. But that was as soon as August in 1932, after the July elections, and it has nothing to do with Hitler's nomination, which didn't take place until after the Schleicher Cabinet, something in connection with which I have been examined here; it has nothing to do with that.
Q Now, Dr. Schacht, I just asked you if you had not testified that you had nothing to do with his coming to the Chancellorship and you said -him and -to about this -- do you contend that that was not aiding Hitler to the Chancellorship?
A I don't know whether it was a help for Hitler. During my examination here, I have been asked whether, in connection with Hitler's election or nomination for the Chancellorship in January, 1933, I had exerted any kind of influence. I have given the names of Hindenburg, Meissner, and so forth, that is to say, the very circle that was around Hindenburg. Papen, in the beginning of November, 1932, was no longer chancellor; so that he had no influence whatever upon these matters. And during those weeks I didn't talk to Papen at all. But, after the elections of '32, I said, "It is inevitable that aman who has so many votes in the Reichstag must take over the political lead, and for Papen to give it to Hitler."
Q When you saw Hitler was going to win you joined him?
Q Well, I'll just make it clear what you do mean. You did not assist him until he had already accumulated more votes than any other Party in the Reichstag? had found out that he had won.
Q Oh, well, I'll accept the amendment.
You've referred to your letter to Hitler on the 29th of August, 1932, -economic program? could agree?
Q And that economic policy is not a factor for building up a party?
Q And you added that "You can also count on me as your reliable assistant"; did you not?
Q And then that was after he had won?
Q Yes, I just want to refer to that document as EC-457. Now, then, on the 12 of November, 1932, you wrote to him, in which you said, among other things, "I have no doubt that the present development of things can only lead to your becoming Chancellor?"
Q "It seems as if our attempt to collect a number of signatures from principal circles for this purpose was not altogether in vain."
Q So you are collecting signatures for this purpose?
Q And thay was EC-457. Now, as of November, 1932, a document was prepared for a large number of industrialists to sign urging the selection of Hitler as Chancellor in substance, was there not?
A I don't know the document any more, but I assume that it's the document to which the letter refers. rialists signed that document, did they not?
Q And it was sent to von Hindenburg?
A That I don't know.
Q Well, the purpose was to aid Hitler in obtaining the Chancellorship?
A That's possible.
Q It is addressed to the Reich President, is it not? That is 3910*PS
A I have not seen it, but it's probably correct.
Q Well, you don't deny that that occured, do you?
A I assume that it's correct, I havn't the least doubt, I don't doubt it at al money-raising campaign, did you not?
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Well, I'll remind you from your own interrogation. Well, I'll remind you, first, of your testimony, in which you say that it appears that you did not plead for funds but that Goering pleaded for funds, and I ask you if you did or not, on the 9th of October, 1945, give these answers to these questions as to the event of February, 1933?
Q Going back to 1933. This is the question.
"Prior to the time that Hitler appointed you as president of the Reichsbank, do you recall a meeting in the home of Goering?" Answer: "Yes. That was a financial meeting. I have been interrogated about that several times already."
Question: "Tell me about it?"
Answer: "Yes, I will. Hitler had to go to the election on the 5th of March, if you will remember and for these elections he wanted me to do the campaigning. He asked me to procure the money and I did that. Goering called these men together and I made a speech -- not a speech, for Hitler made the speech -- but I asked him to write down the amounts and to subscribe for the elections which they did. They subscribed the amount of $3,000,000 all together, and they distributed the amounts among themselves."
"Who were the people who made up that subscription list?
Answer: "I think that all of them were bankers and industrialists, chemical industrialists, iron industries, textile industries, all of that. They represented the industries and all of the other big industries."
"Do you recall any specific names?"
"The old gentleman Krupp was there, Gustav I think it was. Schnitzler, I think it was, was there, and Vogler for the United States steel works."
Did you give that testimony? D-203 I should say, which is a record of the meeting, and at that meeting Goering said this in substance, did he not?
"The sacrifice asked for would be so much easier for the German people to bear if they realize that the election of March 5 would surely be the last one for the next 10 years, possibly even for the next 100 years."
You heard that, did you not? about your opinion and about the tribute that Goebbels paid to you and you said to the Court, "It is not my fault if Mr. Goebbels made a mistake." Do you recall that?
Q And I ask you, in regard to the tribute of Dr. Goebbels, if you didn't say this to the interrogator of the United States on 17 October 1945, which is USA Exhibit No. 616.
"When did you become interested in becoming a co-worker of Hitler?"
Answer: ''I'd say in the years of 1931, 1932.
Question: "And that was when you saw that he had a mass movement that was likely to take power?"
Answer: ''Quite, that was increasing every time," Question:
''And did you publicly record your support for Hitler in those years?"
Answer: "I think I made a statement in December, 1930, once coming back from America, at the Bavarian People's party, where I said that there was a choice for any future German Government, either to hold against 25% socialists, or against 20% National Socialists."
Question: "Bat what I mean -- to make it very brief indeed -- did you lend the prestige of your name to help Hitler come to power?"
Answer: "I have publicly stated that I expected Hitler to come into power, far the first time that I remember, in November, 1932."
Question: ''And you know, or perhaps you don't that Goebbels in his diary, records with great affection -
Answer: "Yes."
Question: "The help that you gave him at the time?"
Answer: "Yes, I know that.
Question: "November, 1932?"
Answer: And you quote the book here, "From the Kaiserhof to the Chancellery and back."
Question: "That's right; you have read that?"
Answer: "Yes."
Question: "And you don't deny that Goebbels was right?"
Answer: "I think his impression was, that was correct at that time."
Did you give that testimony?
A Yes. I never doubted that Goebbels was wrong, I only said that he was mistaken. Dodd, a day or two before, did you not?
Q And let's have this understood. Ambassador Dodd was considered, and at all times, opposed to the entire Nazi outfit, wasn't he? outfit? Dodd invited you to go to the United States of America and you said, I am quoting from page 8670 of the record:
"At that time, which was 1937, "he again called on me and told me urgently that I should go with him, or as soon after him as possible, to America, to change my residence to America; that I would find a very pleasant welcome in America. I believe he would never have said that to me if he had not had a certain degree of friendship for me.
You said that to the Tribunal, didn't you?
impression that Ambassador Dodd had greet confidence in you and greet friendship for you?
Q Had you read the entire diary?
A Yes. I also know of a passage where he said that I would make a very bad American.
Q You didn't mention that to the Tribunal. the date of December 21, 1937, where he speaks of the luncheon at which you were present. He said:
"Schacht spoke of the defeat of Germany in 1918 as already due to Woodrow Wilson bringing America into the World War, but he said Wilson's Fourteen Points were the one great promise of international peace and cooperation and every country on both sides helped to defeat his purpose."
"Don't you think Wilson, 50 years from now, will be pointed out as one of the greatest men?"
Answer: "He made an impression but turned his attention to the Japanese-China war, and also the German alliance to Japan."
Quoting you: "If the United States would stop the Japanese War and let Germany have her way in Europe, we would have world peace."
A What is the question?
Q Did you say that?
A I don't know whether I said it, but even today it seems an extremely reasonable statement. I am of that opinion.
Q Now, let's get this straight. As I understand you, you were going to have world peace if Germany was left to have her own way in Europe?