A I said that. At that time the problem was to get the Jews to-
20'March-A-MC-12-3 gether in certain parts and along certain streets in the town, because on the basis of the tenant regulations it wasn't possible, and on that basis, if they would have insignias each individual Jew would have een protected. to this warning from Heydrich about the measures which had been discussed:
"Goering: Once we would have a ghetto we would find out what stores ought to be in there and we would be able to say, 'You, Jew so and so, together with so and so, shall take care of the delivery of goods,' and a German wholesale firm will be ordered to deliver the goods for this Jewish store. The store would then not be a retail shop but a cooperative store, a cooperative one for Jews."
"Heydrich: All these measures will eventually lead to the institution of the ghetto. I would say one shouldn't want to build a ghetto, but these measures, if carried through as outlined here, shall automatically drive the Jews into a ghetto."
Did Heydrich give that warning? discussion that I say, "Now comes the possible force of Jewish tenants when they come together, and that was the problem -- to get Jewish tenants together in the same building so that difficulties which would otherwise occur could be avoided. "Jews will have to move quite close together. Every one will have to stand up for the next fellow. The individual alone will starve."
Do you find that? very clearly, "One cannot let the Jews Starve and therefore the necessary measures must be taken." words, didn't you?
"I shall close the meeting this way: That German Jewry shall as a punishment for their abominable," and so forth and so forth, "have to make a contribution of one billion. That will work. The pigs wont commit another murder.
Incidentally, I would like to say again that I wouldn't like to be a Jew in Germany."
Q Were you joking about that too? stopped from getting anything out of the Aryanization of the Jewish property, right?
I call your attention to Document 141-PS, U.SA. 308. That is the order establishing priorities on the claim for Jewish art property. Do you recall that? it in detail the other day. not?
A Yes,indeed. I underlined that. ted to be given to the French museums, which will be auctioned off and the profit from this auction will be given to the French state for the benefit of those bereaved by the war. That, I understand, you have never done?
A I haven't said that it had ever been done. That was just my ppinion, my intention in that decree.
AAs far as paragraph 5 is concerned, I cannot say. I can only refer to the plans which can be seen in paragraph 2, the things the I pointed out, and as I have said the other day that this amount was kept in readiness and that I always asked on which account it should be deposited, and I had estimates made of each individual a object, of all those which should go intothe collection which I desire to establish.
Q: Where was this amount kept?
A: In my bank, under the name "Art Account."
Q: In what bank?
A: I could not say that for sure new. There were several banks in which accounts were kept. In which bank that account "Art Account was, I could not say. I would have to have the documentary materal for that here.
Q: In the several interrogations you have never been able to point out where that fund is, have you?
A: I cannot say, but if you would question my secretary who knew about all the funds, she could tell you quite accurately.
Q: This order, 141-PS, was carried out by the Rosenberg organization, wasn't it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know who carried it out, who actually was there? Did you know Turner?
A: I did not understand the name.
Q: Did you know Mr. Turner?
A: I know a Turner, but he has nothing to do with the Einsatzstab, the Special Staff Rosenberg. As far as I know, he was in Yugoslavia.
Q: Wasn't Staatsrat Turner in Paris in connection with the art collections?
A: I repeat again -- you said Tourner, T-o-u-r-n-e-r or Koerner, K-o-e-r-n-e-r?
Q: Turner.
A: Koerner?
Q: T-u-r-n-e-r.
A. Turner -- I don't know that he would have had anything to do with the Einsatzstab Rosenberg.
Q: But you know him, dind you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you know a Dr. Bunjes?
A: Bunjes, B-u-n-j-e-s, yes.
Q: You know him?
A: Yes.
Q: He had to do with captured or confiscated Jewish art, did he not?
A: I don't believe that Dr. Bunjes had anything to do with that. He was active in a different field of art. The Einsatzstab Rosenberg and several officials of the military administration had to do with it.
Q: I will ask to have you shown, so that you can follow me, to refresh your collection, Document 2523-PS, USA-783, a letter from Dr. Bunjes, and ask you if this refreshes spur recollection of certain events.
"On Tuesday, the 4th of February 1941 at 1830 o'clock, I was ordered for the first time to report to the Reichsmarshal at the Quai d'Orsay. Field Commander von Behr of the Special Purpose Staff Resenberg was present at the report. It is, of course, difficult to describe in words the cordial tone in which the conversation was hedl."
A: No, it would not have been so important that I should have remember it, but I will not deny it, of course.
Q: We'll see if this refreshes your recollection;
"The Reichsmarshal dropped the subject of Turner for the time being and asked for the report of the present state of the seizure of Jewish art property in the occupied western territories. On this occasion he gave Mr. von Behr the photographs of these objects of art that the Fuehrer wants to bring into his possession. In addition, he gave Mr. von Behr the photographs of those objects of art that the Reichsmarshal wants to acquire for himself."
A: I cannot follow here.
Q: You mean you do not find these words, or you do not recall that events?
A: No, I haven't found the passage yet, and I would like to have a little time to see the connection in this letter which wasneither written by me nor addressed to me.
Q: Let me call your attention to a further paragraph of it and see if it doesn't refresh your recollection:
"On Wednesday, 5 February 1941, I was ordered to the Joue de Pomme by the Reichsmarshal. At 1500 o'clock, the Reichsmarshall, accompanied by General Hannesse, Mr. Angerer, and Mr. Hofer, visited the exhibited of Jewish art treasures newly set up there."
art treasures which were exhibited there, that's right..
Q That's right; now we are getting there.
"Then, with myself as his guide, the Reichsmarshal inspected the exhibited art treasures and made a selection of these works of art which were to go to the Fuehrer and those which were to be plac in his own collection.
"During this confidential conservation, I again called the reichsmarshal's attention to the fact that a nets of protest had been received from the French government against the activity of the Einsatzstab Rosenberg, with reference to the Hague Rules on Land Warefare recognized by Germany at the armistice of Compiegne, and I pointed out that General von Stuelpnagel's interpretation of the manner in which the confiscated Jewish art treasures are to be treated was apparently contrary to the Reichsmarshal's interpretation.
"Thereupon, the Reichsnarshal asked for a detailed explanation and gave the following orders;
"First, my orders are decisive. You will act directly according to my orders. The art objects collected in the Joue de Pomne are to be leaded into a special train immediately and taken to Germany on orders of the Reichsnarshal. These art objects which are to go into the Fuehrer's possession and those art objects which the Reichsnarshal claims for himself will be loadedinto two railroad cars which will be attached to the Reichsnarshal's special train, and upon his departure for Germany, at the beginning of next week, will be taken along to Berlin. Feldfuehrer von Behr will accompany the Reichsnarshal in his special train on the tripto Berlin "When I made the objection that the jurists would probably be of a different opinion and that protests would most likely be made by the military commander in France, the Reichsnarshal answered, saying verbatim as follows, 'Dear Bunjes, let me worry about that; I am the highest jurist in the State.
' the Chief of the Paris Military Administrative district on Thursday, February 6, the written order for the transfer to Germany of the confiscated Jewish art treasures."
Now, does that refresh your recollection? to the art treasures with the exception of one sentence, the motion which is expressed here, is the fact that it alleges that I said that I was the highe. jurist in the State because that, thank God, I was not. That is a an expression which Mr. Bunjes used, and I cannot be held responsble for each expression which anyone may have made to sommebody else without my having any possibility of correcting it. The rest, however, is according to the explanation which I gave the other day.
it not? 140*PS. USA-784. Now, I ask you to refresh your recollection by following this report to the Fuehrer with me, and tell me if this conforms with your testimony:
"I report the arrival" -
A (Interposing) I would like to point out that this report did not cone from me.
Q I understand that. I an asking if it is right or wrong.
"I report the arrival of the principal shipment of ownerless Jewish cultural property in the salvage location Neuschwanstein by special train on Saturday the 15th of this month. It was secured by my Staff for Special Purposes, Einsatzstab, in Paris. The special train, arranged for by Reichsmarshal Hermann Goering, comprised 25 express baggage cars filled with the most valuable paintings, furniture, Gobelins, works of artistic craftsmanship and ornaments. The shipment consisted of the most important parts of the collections of Rothschild, Seligman" -- and half a dozen others.
Have you found that and is it correct? cone from me. The only thing that I remember is that I had been asked by the Einsatzstab to take care to see to it that they should have sufficient special cars, box cars, in order to ship the art treasures, since Joue de Pomme was not at all a safe place in case of bombing attacts, nor was Neuschwanstein, south of Munnich, and they were the objects which went to the Fuehrer. which was not written by me, and that goes as follows:
"The action of confiscation by my Einsatzstab, which took place on the basis of your order, my Fuehrer, started in October 1940 in Paris."
Q And would you care to read further ?
A You mean "Outside of this special train, already before the main art objects which the Reichsmarshal had selected, mainly from the collection of the Rothschilds, had been brought in two special cars to Munich and were there put into the air raid shelter of the Fuehrer Building". Those were the ones that at first I had selected following the wish of the Fuehrer, the most precious objects which should have been sent to the air raid shelter, and they have nothing to do with nine, but I did not dispute the fact. I have xplained it in detail. you estimated your art objects as having a value at the time you turned them over to the government of fifty million reichsmark, as I racall it.
A That is not correct in this way. That commission wanted an estimate. There was a strong discussion going back anf forth about it. I told that commission that I could not assess the value because I did not have the objects in front of me and no list, and I could not remember them well enough; furthermore, that it depended also on the markte in gernal and in some cases there is the amateuer value and in other cases the trade vaulue. Since I did not see the minutes and especially since in these minutes there were misunderstandings, I can only identify the protocols which I have signed.
Q Well, do you question this fact, "When I gave the news to the Minister of Finance I at that time estimated the value at fifty million marks". Did you say that or did you not ?
A I cannot estimate the value. I only told the manner in which my collections, including my own, would be turned over to the state, and since he knew my passion for collecting, I told him that it was qyite possible that suddenly something would happen to me and that since I had put my entire private property into these art collections, it could therefore be possible that on the basis of my disposition that the entire collection should become the property of the state, that my family would be deprived of everything and that he should take care to bring about a reasonable balance. That is what I had to say to the Finance Minister, as to which he can testify.
Q What proportion of your art collection was acquired after 1933 statues.
bought?
A Yes, of course. Certainly. financial transactions, was there not?
A I do not know. I do not know who made such inquiries. 7,276,00 from the Rezza Cigarette Factory?
Q You were never asked about it? nor anything about it.
Q Let me refresh your recollection about that. Did you not tell them and did you not tell Colonel Amen in interrogations that this money was given to you by this cigarette factory and that their back taxes were cancelled?
A No, I denied that their back taxes were over cancelled. I remember now that the questions was put to no in a different connection The economist brought up a part in the so-called Adolph Hitler Fund and the distribution of this amount was turned over to no for general cultural tasks. the External Assets Branch of the United Spates Investigation of Cartels and External Assets, were you not? would be ready to make any statements about it and was told that these statments have nothing at all to do with this trial and that therefore the presence of my defense counsel would not be necessary That statment was made defintely and was reported to no also by the people in charge of the prison, and before the interrogation it was again confirmed that my statements made during it would not be brought in in connection with this trial.
It does notmake any difference to me as much. You may produce them, but I want so say this on account of the method used.
DR. STAHMER: I protest against the use of these statements for the reason that has just been given by the witness. I myself sometime ago-- I believe it was around Christmas--was asked by, I belie the American Treasury whether about questions of property they shou hear the defendant, with the definite remark that I did not have to be present at the interrogation because any statement would not be brought up in connection with the trial and would not be used in the course of the trial.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am not able either to affirm or deny, and therefore I will not pursue this subject further at this time. I do not believe that any stipulation was made that these facts should not be gone into. I was not informed of it, and if there has been, of course, it would be absurd. Casino the Casino abbey was brought and do liver ad to you and that you expressed great appreciation for it. of Monte Casino had been completely destroyed by shelling and had been defended by a paratroop division, a delegation arrived one day and brought along a stute entirely without value of some male or female holy person, as a last momente of this destroyed monastery. I thanked the delegation and showed the stutue to the curator of my a* collection, and he also considered the stutue entirely without value. The box remained in the monastery.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think this is coming through sufficient loud for the shorthand writers to hear. my knowledge, has been evacuated following my order. A large part, especially of those objects which belonged to the abbey of the monastery, was sent to the Vatican. I have to assume this from the fact that the abbey of the monastery sent me and my division a personal letter of gratitude, written in Latin, for that action.
in Naples which had been deposited there at Monte Casino -- a large part of those was also taken by us to Venice and there turned over ot the Italian government.
Very few pictures and statues were brought to Berlin, and there they were turned over to me.
On the very same day I presented the list to the Fuehrer, and a short time later, from my air raid shelter, also the objects, so taht he, the Fuehrer, could negotiate about them with Mussolini. Of these objects I did not keep a single one for my collection. If my troops would not have intervened, then these objects of art which had been stored in Monte Cassino and belonged to the monastery would .have been destroyed by the shelling and bombing of the anemy, that is to say, the American-British enemy, without an trace. In this way they are still in ecistence.
Q Now, you say of no value -- no substantial value?
A That is my conviction today still, and I depended, first of al* on the judgment of my expert. Therefore, I have never taken that statue out of the box. It was uninteresting for me. And then, again, I wanted to say something nice to the men who brought ist. of 1941, was it not? Russian prisoners of war, did you not?
A Employment for what? you gave that order, was it not? ly I issued these directives. selected in collecting camps beyond the Reich border, and should be transportes as rapidly as possible and employed in the following order of priority: mining, railroad maintenance, war industry-tanks, artillery pieces, airplane parts, agriculture, building industry, ect. You gave that order, did you not?
A I must have given that order; otherwise, I cannot remember it.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the number of that, Mr. Jackson?
Q I ask to have you shown document No. 1193-PS.
A I haven't seen that document yet.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
A Excuse me. I have just received the document about the use of Soviet Russians. Is that the one you meant?
Q That is right. I call your attention to the fact that it is referred to as an annex in the letter signed by Goering.
A I just wanted to point that out. This document was not signed by me, buy by Koerner. But that does not make any difference as far as my responsibility is concerned. you gave the order, as Koerner reports it, do you, in the document referred to as 1193-PS? and here even by a still younger official, a regierungsrat, and that I only wanted to state that this was my field of competence. Therefore, I assume responsibility. But I have not read it yet. This dea* with directives and outline which I have given generally, and which were worked out by the department concerned afterwards. And, of cou* not every word or every sentence, such as it is written here, could have been discated by myself, but that does not change or alter the fact that I assume the responsibility for it, even id I didnot know it in detail or the formulation may have been a different one if I had written it. But the general directives were given by me, and, accordingly, worked out by the other instances. be taken from among the French prisoners of war not yet employed in armament industry, and are to be assigned to the armament industry, airplane industry. Gaps in manpower resulting therefrom will be filled by Soviet prisoners of war.
The transfer of the above-named French prisoners of war is to be accomplished by October the *1st.
You gave that order, did you not?
A That is correct. Here we deal primarily with the fact that a large part of French expert workers which were in capivity were prisoners of war and were free workers under the condition that they would work in the German armament industry, and the shortages which occurred at their previous places of works, where they had worked as prisoners of war, should be filled by Russian prisoners of war, because I considered it unreasonable that qualified experts in industry, for instance, in agriculture or anywhere else should not do the work which was according to their capibility. Therefore, I made sure that these people could become free workers instead of prisoners of war if they would consent to that work. There were the decrees, the outlines, which I established. Germany?
A Duty labor, " pflicht arbeit." 1945, that " I would like to add something to the last question of the last interrogation. The Colonel asked me if the forced labor program was effective, and I said Yes. There are two remarks I would like to make to that,.
"All right.
" I must say that in the results as such it was effective. However, a great number of acts of sabotage did happen, and also treason ans espionage.
"Question: But on the whole you would say it was a successful program from the German point of view?
"Answer: Yes. Without this manpower many things could never have been achieved." Did you say that? cannot do any work.
had been a success. What do you say to that? Did you say that?
manpower was successful, Manpower used was successful; that is corrected BY MR, JUSTICE JACKSON: you, and you have said that you received it. at one period, were you not?
A I explained that the other day, yes; and I explained how far. wanted your position abolished in event of war, did he not -- your economic position.
A Not quite. There were the same functions of authority at the same time -- two different persons, and that in the long run was incompatible, It simply had to be made clear which one of the two should have the authority, ans especially in the case of a mobilization that would have been very urgent. relations with Schacht, made this statement, did you not, in reference to your disagreement with Schacht: This I must underline, Schacht always tried to slide out and up and achieve yet a now position, while all the other ministers cooperated absolutely. Did you say that?
A Not exactly as it is there. I wanted to emphasize that, contrary to the other minisers who followed my directives for the Four Year Plan etc. without difficulty, I had certain difficulties with Schacht, which I have explained already, on the basis of his being a very strong personality. or in those words? in substance.
Q Now, do you have in mind Schacht's letter to you, 3700-PS?
Q And in that letter Schacht said this to you, did he not refer-
ring to 5700-PS? " It may he military necessary"-- Do you want to follow it?
( A document was handed to the witness).
"It may he military necessary to conscript the 15-year olds, but it will be a heavy burden, on the fighting morale of the German people The facts as the German people see them are as follows:
"First, the original promise of a short war has not been fulfilled.
"Second, the promised quick victory over England by the air for did not materialize.
"Third, the public statement that Germany would remain free of enemy air raids has not been fulfilled.
"Fourth, the repeated announcements that the Russian resistance was definitely broken have been proved to be untrue.
"Fifth, Allied supplies of arms to Russia, and the manpower reserves of Russia have, on the contrary, been sufficient to bring continuous heavy counter-attacks against our Eastern Front.
"Sixth, the original victorious advance into Egypt has been halted after repeated attempts.
"Seventh, the landing of the Allies in North and West Africa, declared impossible, has, nevertheless, been accomplished.
"Eight, the extremely large amount od shipping space which was required for this landing has shown that our U-boats, in spite of their great successes, did not suffic to prevent this moment. In addition, any person of German extraction can see the reductions in the civilian supply, in the traffic, in armaments, and in the availability of manpower.
" The conscription of the 15-year olds will increase the doubt concerning the ermination of this war." you received that letter? but the year is missing. If I would get a copy where the year could be seen I could answer it more clearly.
I have said the other day that I assume, according to the events mentioned, that that must be either November 1944 or November 1943, but, unfortunately, that is not indicated here.
I can only read 3rd of November. The year is missing.
Q Do you know when Schacht was sent to the concentration camp?
Do you know the date of that ?
1944, I believe Mr. Schecht was already in the concentration camp;
patching that letter to you, wasn't he ?
Q How much longer was he at large ?
days, after I returned, that is to say, in September 1944. A the least because when I asked about his arrest, I was told defi sians, Lithuanians and Tartars between the ages of 15 and 20?
Did you come to some agreement with Himmler and Rosenberg about that?
don't think so. My office, however, that is quite possible and Friday-- as follows:
Let me refresh your recollection about the questions of confiscation "Now, about the question of the confis confiscated.
As far as I know, yes, private property is mentioned in the official report; so far as the winter of 1941 and 1942, could not be confiscated."
And I think you also said that you never took anything, down to the last screw and bolt, when you were in occupation of foreign territory. Do you recall that testimony ?
Q Do you still stand on it ?
Q I ask to have you shown a document EC 317. Now, that is a secret command matter, is it not, dated the 5th of September 1943.Is that right?
A Yes, indeed; page 3.
Q This letter of transmittal we will not bother about. Your secret command matter is dated the 7 September 1943, is it not ?
Q And it reads as follows: "Concerning the evacuation of the harvested crop and the destruction of the means of production in the agricultural and food economy in parts of the occupied territories; by direction of the Fuehrer, I give the following order:
"First. In the territories east of the line fixed by the highest military command, the following measures are to be taken gradually, according to the military situation at the time. The measures are to be determined by the O.B. (Oberbefehlshaber) of the army groups:
"(1) All agricultural products* means of production, and machines of enterprises serving the agricultural and food economy are to be transported away.
"(2) The factories serving the food economy, both in the field of production an of processing, are to be destroyed.
"(3) The basis of agricultural production, especeally the records and establishments, storage plants, etc., of the organizations charged with seizing the food economy, are to be destroyed.
"(4) The population engaged in the agricultural and food economy is to be transported into the territory west of the fixed line."
Right ?
A Absolutely correct; but I want to state in connection with it, that we are dealing here with purely military measures in a retreat and for thes four points, with respect to these four points, I have emphasized the other day that a great number of agricultural machines had been brought to Russia by us. After the Russians, when they retreated, destroyed everything, we had all the less military reason to leave our machines which we had brought there and established there and to let them fall into their hand not destroyed. This is an order of urgency and for military reasons which had been issued in the case of a retreat and which was executed in the same way as before in the reverse case.
Q And it was signed by you?
MR: JUSTICE JACKSON: I am about to go into a different subject, may it please your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we will adjourn now.
( A recess was taken until 1525 hours.)