decree by the Fuehrer. It read as follows:
"For the safety of the fighting units before the campaign into protected.
Based on this thought, with every means resistance is to be broken.
To support the fighting power of the Army for this task, the Security Police and the Security Service are to be called in."
Q Do you recall anything else contained in that agreement?
Q What was said about that?
Commandos of the SD was discussed. Four different spheres of influence I remember as follows:
first, the front area; secondly, the area -- third, the rear Army area; and fourthly, thearea for the civil influence and command were set down distinctly.
In the front, or fighting troops.
That means they were exclusively under the jurisdiction of the diction, and these rules were to apply in the third zone; and in the be included under tactical and troop service regulations.
That meant the phrase "Truppendienstlich" was clarified, and by that we meant the reports that were to come in.
All these things were included.
agreement?
A Yes; I cannot remember any more.
COL. AMEN: If Your Honor please, that is all. THE PRESIDENT: Does the English prosecution have any questions to ask? SIR' DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No. THE PRESIDENT: Does the Russian prosecution have any questions to ask? COL. POKROVSKY: No. THE PRESIDENT: Does the French prosecution have any questions to ask?
(No response). THE PRESIDENT: Do the Defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions? BY DR. KURT KAUFFMANN (Counsel for the Defendant Kaltenbrunner):
Q Is it correct that Dr. Kaltenbrunner was your superior?
A Dr. Kaltenbrunner was my immediate superior.
Q Until what time?
A From the 30th January of '43 until the end. National Socialism, as far as the Jewish treatment or question of the treatment of the Church? problems. What I know about him is the result of a few special personal observations.
Q Did you receive original orders of Kaltenbrunner's that covered executions of saboteurs or concentration camp people?
A No. All I know about it is the oral directives or orders that he sent to the Amt IV chief. These I know about, those orders. Himmler on everything concerning concentration camps, and that everything that concerned the executive power was to be taken away from him, and that all that was to remain with him was the SD, as a message service, and this message service he wanted to develop to get the necessary critical faculties, which were lacking?
A I do not know about any such agreement, and what I found out about facts later is to the contrary.
a negative answer. Which facts do you mean? to the Reichsfuehrer SS, that concentration camps were not to be evacuated. Kaltenbrunner, in direct contact with Hitler, circumvented this decree in order to appear in a better international light. applied to existing laws, or that would be concerned with international agreements?
A I would like to interpret it in the following manner: that if international personalities gave the binding word to allied powers not to have the concentration camps evacuated, it was binding according to human law.
Q That do you mean by evacuated? and to have them transposed to other parts of Germany.
Q That was your opinion? coincide with that. approaching enemy? brought on many people, and the people who were per se innocent?
A I didn't quite understand the question. Will you please repeat it? workers, might be the cause for many people -- let us say Jews -- suffering greatly even though these people were innocent?
thing. I was merely an information center.
Q Then your information center had no connection to such crimes?
Q Then in this point Kaltenbrunner would not be accused?
Q I asked in this point, and by that I meant your sector; your department.
Q But Kaltenbrunner was the Chief of the Amt section at the same time? amts, were subsidiary to it. One or two of them I headed, and they were Amt VI and Amt Mil, and these two offices had nothing to do with the executive power of the State Police.
THE PRESIDENT: What I understood you to say was that you were only in a branch which was an information center; is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And that Kaltenbrunner was your immediate chief; is that right?
THE WITNESS: Kaltenbrunner was the chief of the RSHA.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, he was the Chief, not only of your branch, but of the whole organization.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I would like to question this witness later on. I would like to reserve the right to question this witness later on, after I talk with Kaltenbrunner. QUESTIONS BY DR. KUBUSCHOF (Counsel for Von Papen):
Q In the summer of '43, were you in Ankara; and did you at this time pay a visit to the German Embassy? foreign policy in various ways, and at that point mention that it was absolutely advisable to have better connections with the Holy See; while at that time, Ambassador von Papen said: "That is only advisable then, according to the demands that I have made repeatedly, that the church policy be revised completely, and the persecution of the churches will cease"? sense I talked with the then Ambassador, von Papen. QUESTIONS BY DR. THOM (Counsel for Rosenberg): the realm of the civil administration as in the Reich.
A I will repeat: I reproduced the agreement, but in the provisional areas of administration of the Reichskommissariat, the same regulations existed as far as the armed SD was concerned, and these applied in the same way as in the Reich.
Q Do you know through whom that was carried out? QUESTIONS BY DR. BABEL (Counsel for SS and SD): positions-
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state, for the purposes of the record, which organization you appear on behalf of?
DR. BABEL: I represent the organizations of the SS and SD.
Q (Continuing) In the RSHA, there were two departments, the Security Police and SD; how were these two departments connected, and what was the purpose of the SD?
Q Perhaps I can change the question and ask a concrete one: Was the SD used with the Einsatzgruppen in the East; in what scope, and with what tasks or missions were they charged? in the East by the Security Police which was the State Police; and the Criminal Police was there; and only supplementary units from the personnel of the SD were used.
Q How large were these supplementary contingents? How large was the SD?
A I believe that I can estimate the figures: Excluding female help, the State Police -- perhaps 40 to 45,000; the Criminal Police -- 15 to 20,000; SD in the interior, that is, Amt III with its organizational subsidiaries -- 2 to 2,500; and SD beyond Germany -- that is my Amt VI -about 400.
Q And how was the SD used in the East?
A I can't give you particulars, because that was a matter of the personal and civil administration, and it was under the chief of the Security Police. or was the female help included?
A Only male members. I excluded the female help.
3,000, but he thought the female help was included.
Q What was the hierarchy of the Waffen SS? responsible answer, because I was not concerned with that question.
A I was a member of the Waffen SS since January '45, according to higher orders, because I had large numbers of military men through Amt Mil, and I had to have military rank to cover my activities.
Q Do you know what happened in other cases, also?
DR. BABEL: Thank you. QUESTIONS BY COL. AMEN: clearance of any concentration camp, contrary to Himmler's wishes?
Q Will you tell the Tribunal about that?
A I cannot give you the exact date. I believe it was the beginning of April 1945. The son of President Muesi of Switzerland had brought his father into Switzerland, and had returned by auto himself to the concentration camp at Buchenwald; and he wanted to call for a Jewish family which I had liberated personally. He came to the camp while we were evacuating it at top speed, and under the worst possible circumstances. Three days before, I had discussed and promised the non-evacuation of the camp to his father, and this declaration was also meant for Eisenhower; and since he had gone to Switzerland in the meantime, he was doubly disappointed and surprised because the promise was not kept. Muesi Jr. came to me personally in my office; was deeply insulted and accused me bitterly. I couldn't understand the circumstances, and immediately contacted the secretary of Himmler and protested against these proceedings. The actual fact, as mentioned to me by Muesi Jr. was certified as correct, but it was unexplained since Himmler had not given these orders, or was not supposed to have given these orders, and a halt was ordered immediately by all means.
Himmler personally certified the same over the phone. I believe it was on the same day, after an official meeting, I informed Kaltenbrunner of the state of affairs, and relieved his mind about this renewed breach of international promises. At this point of the conversation I paused, and the Chief of the State Police, Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, entered into the conversation, and said that he, according to an order of Kaltenbrunner's, three days ago, had already begun the evacuation of the most important internees of the several camps.
Kaltenbrunner replied: "Yes, that is right.
A decree of the Fuehrer is involved, which was recently confirmed by him, that is, the Fuehrer, and all important internees, accord ing to that decree, were to be evacuated to the southern part of the Reich."
Then, in a cynical way, in dialect, he said to me: "Tell your old man"-that was Muesi, Sr. -- "there will still be enough left in the concentration camps, and you will have to be satisfied with that."
I believe that was on the 10th of April, 1945.
COL. AMEN: That is all, may it please the Tribunal. QUESTIONS BY THE TRIBUNAL (General Nikitchenko): the Security Police?
A That I cannot answer in one sentence. I believe-
Q What were the aims?
A The RSHA was a comprehensive grouping of the Security Police; that means State Police.
are at the disposal of the Court, but what were its functions?
A I just wanted, a minute ago, to explain its functions. Its functions were as follows: That was a matter of Security Police activity, Criminal Police activity, security measure, internally and in foreign countries; that is, in Germany and abroad.
Q Would it be correct to formulate the functions as follows: to suppress those whom the Nazi Party considered its enemies?
A No, I don't believe that. A statement of that type is too one-sided. took office? changed since the time that Kaltenbrunner took office as Chief of the Security Police?
A The functions, as I pointed them out, did not change after Kaltenbrunner assumed office.
Q I have one more question: What were the aims and purposes of the operation group which had been created on the basis of the agreement between the SD and the High Command? as I mentioned before, the task was laid down to protect the rear of the troops, and to use all means against opposition and against resistance.
Q To repress or to do away with?
A The words were: "All resistance is to be broken with every means".
Q By what means was the resistance suppressed?
A The agreement did not mention nor cover this in any way. It was not discussed.
Q But you know what means were used for that suppression, do you not? were equally harsh, but that is only hearsay, as far as I am concerned.
Q What does it mean more exactly? population was concerned, there were many shootings that took place.
Q Including the children?
A That I didn't hear.
Q You haven't heard it?
A (No response).
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Since Your Lordship was good enough to ask me whether I wanted to put some questions, I have had some further information, and I should be very grateful if the Tribunal would allow me to ask one or two questions. QUESTIONS BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Kaltenbrunner, Gruppenfuehrer Nebe and Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, in the Spring of 1944, in Berlin at Wilhelmstrasse 102?
A Yes.
Q With what was that conversation concerned? to it, concerned about 50 prisoners of war, English or American, that had been shot. This conversation, in its particulars, was as follows, to the best of my recollection: There was a request on the part of the International Red Cross war. They were interested in getting information about their whereabouts. This through the Foreign Office, to the Chief of the Security Police and SD.
Q Just one moment. Was it already in the form of a protest against the shooting of prisoners of war?
A I do believe it was in the form of a protest. From the fragments of the conversation I gathered that there was a conversation as to what form the shooting of the prisoners of war, which had already taken place, was to be explained.
Q To be explained?
Q Did Kaltenbrunner discuss this with Mueller and Nebe? only picked up fragments of the conversation, I heard it hurriedly that they wanted to cover details more thoroughly in the afternoon. should be given to cover the shooting of the prisoners of war?
Q What were the suggestions?
A The large part was to be handled as individual cases; that they had perished through bomb attacks and then some, I believe, because of resistance, that is physical resistance and others persecution on their escape.
Q You mean shot while trying to escape?
Q These were the excuses which Kaltenbrunner suggested? prisoners. Does any number remain in your mind? Can you remember explanations arose or about how many?
A. I remember only that the number fifty was mentioned again and
Q. But the number fifty remains in your mind?
A. Yes, I hear fifty.
Q. Can you remember anything of the place or the camp in which these people had been, who were said to have been shot?
A. I cannot tell you under oath. There is a possibility that I might add a little bit.
It may have been Breslau but I cannot tell
Q. And can you remember anything of what service the people belonged to?
Were they Air Force or Army? Have you any recollection on that point?
A. I believe all of them were officers.
Q. Were officers?
A. Yes.
Q. But you cannot remember what service?
A. No, that I cannot tell you.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am very grateful to the Tribunal for
COLONEL AMEN: That is all for this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the witness can go then.
COLONEL AMEN: I wish to call as the next witness Alois Hoellriegel.
THE PRESIDENT: What is your name?
THE WITNESS: Alois Hoellriegel.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you take this oath?
(The witness repeated the oath in German)
THE PRESIDENT: You can sit down if you want to.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q. What position did you hold at the end of the war?
A. At the end of the war I was at Mauthausen.
Q. Were you a member of the Totenkopf SS?
A. Yes; in the year 1939 I was taken into the SS.
Q. What were your duties at the Mauthausen Concentration Camp?
A. I was, until the winter of '42, with a guard company and I stood guard. From '42 until the end of the war I was in the inner service of the concentration camp.
Q. And you therefore had occasion to witness the extermination of inmates of that camp by shooting, gassing and so forth?
A. Yes, I saw that.
Q. And did you make an affidavit in this case to the effect that you saw Kaltenbrunner at that camp?
A. Yes.
Q. And that he saw and was familiar with the operation of the gas chamber there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also have occasion to see any other important personages visiting that concentration camp?
A. I remember Pohl, Gluecks, Kaltenbrunner, Schirach and Gauleiter Steyermark.
Q. And did you personally see Schirach at that concentration camp at Mauthausen?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what he looks like so that you could identify him?
A. I believe that he has probably changed during the last times but I would certainly remember him.
Q. How long ago was it that you saw him there?
A. That was in the fall of '42. Since that time I have not seen him
Q. Will you look around the Courtroom and see whether you can see Schirach in the Courtroom?
A. Yes.
Q. Which person?
A. In the second row, the third person from the left.
COLONEL AMEN: The affidavit to which I referred was U.S.A. Exhibit
THE PRESIDENT: What is the PS number?
COLONEL AMEN: 27535 PS.
BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q. I now show you a copy of document Number 2641 PS in this case, and standing?
A. As far as it is able to be recognized -- and I cannot determine
Q. Would you repeat that answer please?
A. As far as it is recognizable I cannot say for sure whether that is the quarry near the concentration camp Mauthausen.
This quarry could be at any other place.
I would have to have more of a view but I believe
Q. Very good. Just lay the picture aside for a moment.
concentration camp by pushing them off a cliff?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal what you saw with respect to that practice?
A. I remember that was in the year '41. I was on guard duty and I the morning about 6 to 8 prisoners and then two SS men were with them.
One was Spatznecker and the other was Eichenhofer.
They moved -
THE PRESIDENT: Wait, you are going too fast. You should go slower.
A. (continuing) Their actions were rather strange and they were down the precipice, either by themselves or have them pushed down.
I that he was to cast himself down from the precipice.
The prisoner in
Q. How steep was the precipice?
A. I estimate thirty to forty meters.
Q. was there a term used amongst you guards for this practice of having the prisoners fall from the top of this precipice?
A Yes. They were called paratroopers.
COLONEL AMEN: The witness is available to other Counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Russian Prosecutor or French Prosecutor or Defense Counsel have any questions?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for Defendant von Schirach):
into the SS?
A That is right. On the 6th of September, 1939, I was
Q Did you have no connections with the Party before then?
A Yes. In April, 1938, I enlisted with the Civil SS your services?
A I cannot exactly declare that. Many were taken into the
Q Are you Austrian?
Q Then at that time you lived in Austria?
Q I am interested in a certain point for Schirach. You saw the Defendant at Mauthausen.
How often did you see him there?
Q Once?
Q Was Mr. von Schirach alone at Mauthausen, or was he together with others?
A He was with other gentlemen. There was a group of
A I didn't at that time know that I would have to use these Bachmeyer.
They entered the camp.
A I cannot remember that. I cannot remember those preparations but I do remember it was in the evening.
I can't tell you the exact hour.
It was the evening count or roll-call.
Q You didn't know the day before or didn't your co-workers know that an inspection was to take place the next day?
Q And didn't you notice afterwards that certain preparations had been made--certain preparations had been taken?
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions of this witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. STEINBAUER(Counsel for Defendant Seyss-Inquart): the casting over a quarry, of people.
Did you report this to your superiors?
Q In other words, you did not report this. Is it true that permitted to report happenings of this sort to a third person?
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no other questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q Would you just look at that picture again?
the quarry underneath the cliff which you have just described?
to see more of the background. I do not see enough, but I am the picture?
Q Will you tell the Tribunal the ones which you do recognize?
COLONEL AMEN: That is all, may it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can go and we will adjourn for (Whereupon at 11.
25 a recess was taken until 11.
33.)