If it is not 96, it is 97. Have you found it?
You see, this was an order from Heydrich issued at 1:20 in the morning of the tenth, and I just want you to look at paragraph one:
"The chiefs of the State Police or their deputies must get in telephonic contact with the Political Loaders (Gauleitung oder Kreisleitung) who have jurisdiction over their districts and have to arrange a joint meeting with the appropriate inspector or commander of the Order Police to discuss the organization of the demonstrations. At these discussions the Political Leaders have to be informed that the German Police has received from the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police the following instructions in accordance with which the Political Leaders should adjust their own measures". of synagogues, the arrest of 20,000 Jews to be taken to concentration camps, and the destructions or appropriation of Jewish property. What were "their own measures" which the Political Leadership were to take with regard to that
A. First, May I point out that in the German text of that document, that i the passage which says that the Gauleiter had jurisdiction, is not included. I don't find it.
Q. The point I am asking you about -- we will deal with that in a moment, but what I want to know from you is, what were "their own measures" which the political leaders were to take with regard to this attack on the Jews?
A. To that I can say the following: I, myself, did not take part in the meeting of 9 November 1938. I was not informed from Munich about the intended action, but I found out on the evening of 9 November from the leader of the Hamburg State Police at that time that an action of that kind was immine
Q. That is, the leader of the Hamburg State Police was carrying out the instructions, of Heydrich after getting in touch with you. I thought you were able to speak for Gauleiters generally, apart from Gau Hamburg, and I want you to tell the Tribunal what were their own measures which the leadership of the party were to carry out? I mean you must have heard it discussed afterwards. It says what they were. That ware the leaders of the party to do?
A. The Prosecutor has asked me in the last question, or the question before the last, about my personal experiences. That is why I thought I had to describe them. I myself was informed by the leader of the State Police that action was intended. I gave the orders for the Gau Hamburg, and that it what I was asked about here, that immediately by officials of the state and criminal police the business streets and residential districts of Jews in Hamburg should be secured; that these measures out by Kriminal Kommissar Winks of the Criminal Police, to whom I sent a Gau inspector for his assistance. Besides, after receiving the information by the State Police I immediately called all the Kreisleiters and made them responsible to prevent that action in their regions.
Q. Did you, in your Gau, burn the synagogues?
A. No.
Q. I want to be exact. Were the synagogues burned in Hamburg? That is what I should have asked you?
A. During the first night, that was from the 9th to the 10th on the basis of my measures no excesses took place. There were minor perpetrations of an insignificant measure in the night from the 10th to the 11th, and one synagogue in Hamburg as destroyed against my measure, I assume from elements from the outside, by fire.
Q. All over Germany generally, if my memory is right, there were at least 75 synagogues burned. In general, apart from your own Gau, is it not right that following this order of Heydrich the leadership court cooperated with the police to see that synagogues were burned, Jews were arrested, and Jewish property affected and that no-jewish property was left secure?
A. No order, no directive, is known to me according to which the court of political leaders, even outside of the Gau Hamburg, according to orders, was obliged to take part in that action. I only found out that after the meeting -- that in connection with the meeting of the 9th of November, Reichsminister Dr. Goebbels sent a directive which practically led to perpetrations in individual Gaus, or many Gaus. I also know -- it also came to my knowledge that the chief of the Four Year Plan at that time, a few days after the action at a meeting in Berlin stated that this measure was not in the intentions of the Fuehrer and his own intentions and condemnet it most severely. And on the occasion of that meeting he also mentioned Hamburg as an exception.
Q. You remember that you said a few moments ago to me that this was an occurence which only took place in individual instances. Here is the order of Heydrich, telling the police generally to get in touch with the leadership court so that they could cooperate with the police to carry out his orders, which were, broadly, attack the Jews and see that you don't do any harm to non-Jews while you are doing it. It is quite wrong what you said a few moments ago, that this was an individual matter. The leadership court were brought into this through the order of Heydrich, who was then Himmler's lieutenant -- chief of the secret police, isn't that so?
A. No, that is not correct. The court of political leaders was not supposed to accept any orders from Heydrich.
The competency for orders to political leaders was solely in the hands of the Gauleiter, who received his directives from the Fuehrer or from the deputy of the fuehrer, or also from the party chancellery.
Q. Well, do you remember what took place after that occurrence? Do you remember a meeting of the party court?
A. No.
Q. Let me remind you about the party court. You will find that in Document 3063 at Pages 81 to 88 of the same document book. Witness it is page 105.
A. Yes, I have found the page.
Q. You have found the page. Page 81. A meeting of the supreme party court of the party, and it begins with a report about the events and judicial proceedings in connection with the anti-semitic demonstrations of 9 November 1938. If you look just after it says "Enclosure 2" it reads: "It was probably understood by all the party leaders present, from the oral instructions of the Reich propaganda director, that the Party should not appear outwardly as the originator of the demonstrations, but in reality should organize and execute them. Instructions in this sense were telephoned immediately (thus a considerable time before transmission of the first teletype) to the bureaux of their districts (Gaue) by a large part of the Party members present." And if you will look on to the next paragraph but one, "At the end of November 1938, the Chief Party Court through reports from several district Gau courts heard that these demonstrations of the 9 November 1938 had gone as far as plundering and killing of Jews to considerable extent and that they had already been the object of investigation by the police and the state prosecutor."
And then after that it says "The deputy of the Fuehrer agreed with the interpretation of the chief party court, that known transgression in any case should be investigated under the jurisdiction of the pzrty: 1. because of the obvious connection between the events to be judged and the instructions which Reich propaganda director, Party member Dr. Goebbels, gave in the town hall at the social evening. Without investigation and evaluation of this connection a just judgment did not appear possible.
This investigation, however, could not be left to innumerable state courts." rests of the party should also receive party clarification first and that the Fuehrer should he asked to cancel the proceedings in the state court. Now if you look on -- I don't want to take too much time -- you will see that there were then sixteen cases which came up before the supreme party court, and the first three cases are matters -- oh, yes, there is just one point I should have drawn attention to. Just before you come to the first case, Gauleaders and group leaders of the branches served as jurors at the trials and decisions. The decisions which, for reasons to be discussed later, contain in part only the statements of the facts, are attached. are concerned with theft and rape. They are allowed to go on to the state courts. The next 13 which come from all over Germany, very different places like Heilsberg, Dessau, Lesum, Bremen, Neidendurg, Eberstadt, Luenen, Aschaffenbur, Dresden, Munich, and all over Germany. There are 13 cases for murdering Jews. Two of the perpetrators get the very mild sentence of a warning and not being able to hold public office because of disciplinary vio lation, and the remaining 11, the proveedings are suspended against them.
Now, I just want you to look at 102. If you will look at 6; that is, the shooting of a Jewish couple called Goldberg; No. 7, the shooting of the Jew Rosenbaum, and the Jewess Zwienicki; No. 10, shooting the Jewess Susanne Stern; and there is No. 5. No. 5 is the shooting of the 16-year old Jew, Herbert Stein.
yourself, is that so?
A Yes; I have explained very clearly that I gave orders to the contrary in my Gau.
Q Yes. I have asked you, as I said at the beginning - I want you to tell the Tribunal about it generally -- how it is that the Court of your party, which is supposed to deal with the discipline and decency of its members, passed over 13 cases of murder with two suspensions from public office in three years, and the remaining 11 cases with all action suspended. Don't you think that that was a disgraceful way to deal with murder?
A May I first answer, Mr. Prosecutor, that among the 13 cases which have been quoted here, there is one single political leader. The clear -
Q Well, you are not right, you know. Cases 9 and 10 involve Ortsgruppenleiter; case 11 involves a Blockleiter. It is true that cases 2 to 8, 12, and 15 involve people with various ranks in the SA, and cases 11, 14 and 16 involve cases with people in the ranks of the SS. But usually I think you will find that cases 9, 10, and 11 involve the political police leadership. But that is not my point, witness. My point is this. Party, and the Court of the Party is condoning and conniving at murder. That is my point, and I want you to give your explanation as to why you connive and condone at murder. first time since I was brought here as a witness to the Palace of Justice in Nurnberg. On the basis of my attitude toward the Jewish question and my measures, I do not approve under any circumstances of the handling of the cases such as is mentioned here. I would never have approved of it if I had found out about it.
Q But, witness, if that is your personal view, then let us leave your personal view for the moment.
The Tribunal are considering the Leadership Court of the Party. Here is the highest count of the Party. If the highest court of the Party gives decisions of that kind of which you intensely disapprove, doesn't it show that the highest court of the Party was rotten to its foundations? self against the Fuehrer who was the creator of that action which has caused all these perpetrations, and had to see that the creator of that action was called to account. And that was apparently missed by the Party Court.
Q I am not going to take it in complete detail; but I just want you to look at one paragraph of the explanation which the Party Court gives. The full explanation is there, on Page 87.
Will you turn to that? I am not sure where that will be. It will be a few pages on; 112, I think, witness. I just want you to try and help us on this point. Have you got a paragraph that begins, "Also in such cases as when Jews were killed without an order (enclosures 13, 14, and 15) or contrary to orders (enclosures 8 and 9) ..."? Now, mark the numbers -
Q Would you try at Page 113? The sergeant will help you.
Q Do you see, "Also in such cases" -- it begins -- "as when Jews were killed without an order (enclosures 13, 14, 15) or contrary to orders (enclosures 8 and 9), ignoble motives could not be determined. At heart the men were convinced that they had done a service to their Fuehrer and to the Party. Therefore, exclusion from the Party did not take place. The final aim of the proceedings executed and also the yardstick for critical examination must be according to the policy of the Supreme Court, on the one hand to protect those Party comrades who, motivated by their decent National Socialist attitude and initiative, had overshot their mark, and, on the other hand, to draw a dividing line between the Party and these elements who for personal reasons basely misused the Party's national liberation battle against Jewry . . ." -- do you say that it is decent National Socialist attitude and initiative to murder Jewesses and children of 16?
A My opinion of these things is quite clear. I objected to that action; I have always objected to it, and I do not approve of the point of view of the Party Court in this question at all. I am convinced that the great majority of the Party members is of the same opinion. must mean that on the Party Court there were a number of men who were completely devoid of any moral sense whatever; is that so?
A I cannot accept this far-reaching characterization. I personally never had anything to do with the Supreme Party Court, and as far as decisive measures and judgments were concerned, I never had any intimate connection with them. your old colleagues too highly, and therefore I will leave it at that, if you agree so far that you disapproved strongly of the action that was taken by that party Court. I think you said that. Of I understand you correctly, I shall not go into it further. Is that right? I disapprove of. example, and -- My Lord, if Your Lordship would be good enough to turn to Page 45 of the same book -- no, My Lord, it is Page 46, I am sorry; and My Lord, the document begins on Page 45, but actually what I would like your Lordship to look at is on Page 47-- It is either on Page 50 or 51, witness, in the German copies. Gaupropagandaleiters of the Gau Coblenz-Trier. You will see that it is issued to all Kreis directorates, and the subject is "Jew baiting". The first paragraph says that they will receive a list of Jewish firms and businesses, and the second paragraph says:
"Jew baiting "The district directorate will set up a committee which has the task of directing and supervising the communities in the whole district.
The strength of this committee will be determined by the district director.
You are to inform the Gau-propaganda directorate at once of the committees named. The Gau-propaganda directorate will then set itself in coordination with these committes through you." including refraining from trading with them, and action against anyone who does trade. Gau-Coblenz-Trier. I want you to tell us just how that fits into the Party machinery. That goes from Gau-propaganda to Kreis, then, I suppose, when the Party leaders in the various Kreis would set up their committees, they would employ the Ortstruppenleiter, or the Zellenleiters and the Blockleiters to form these committees. Is that how it would work? I do not know that it was common usage to send such directives by radio in 1933. I submit that if this message was received, it was a measure in the Gau Coblenz-Trier, for which, to my knowledge, a basic directive did not exist. Trier is the only Gau in which there was Jew baiting in 1933, are you?
A. No.
Q. But what I asked you was, assuming the instructions from Gau carried out the instructions from the Kreis, would these be formed out of the Zellenleiters and Blockleiters use of the various forms of the Kreis?
A. If this document which I have before me is genuine, then I have to assume that from the document.
Q. Yes, assume that it is a verified captured document. Am I right in assuming that the Kreisleiters of Coblenz-Triar carried out these documents and did they form the Jew baiting committees out of the Zellenleiters and Blockleiters?
A. Under no circumstances was that method common usage throughout the Reich.
Q. If that's your answer I won't occupy the time. I just wanted to show what happened in 1933 and 1938. We will now take something that happened during the war. My Lord, if you will be good enough to turn to page 27 and 28. Page 27 -- and to 29 and 30, witness.
A. Yes.
Q. You see that it is a document issued on the 5th of November 1942 regarding jurisdiction over Poles and Eastern Nationals, and you can see that the jurisdiction is to be placed over . . . if I may just read the first paragraph to you to explain it.
"The Reichsfuehrer SS has come to an arrangement with the Reich Minister of Justice Thierack whereby the Justice waives the execution of the usual penal procedure against Poles and Eastern Nationals. Those persons of alien rave are in future to be handed over to the police. Jews and gypsies are to be treated in the same way. This agreement has been approved by the Fuehrer." the Poles and for not giving them a trial is, you see that in paragraph 2, because "Poles and Eastern Nationals are alien and racially inferior people living in the German Reich Territory." considerations for trying Germans do not apply to considerations for trying Eastern Nationals.
Then paragraph 3 says, "Above expositions are for person information. In case of need, however, there need by no hesitation in informing the Gauleiter in suitable form." My Lord, it is the last sentence of the document, that "there need be no hesitation in informing the Gauleiter in suitable form." ing Eastern Nationals a trial and handing them over to the Poles. What had he to do with it.
A. First, this document refers, in the beginning, to a directive by the Reichsfuehrer SS to the subordinate offices. That is to say, not to the Gauleiter. Secondly, the persons who received that document could have decided to instruct the Gauleiters if they deemed it necessary.
Q. That's what I want you to help us on. How did it become necessary for these Polish officers and the officers of the R.S.H.A. to instruct the Gauleiters in refusing a trial. What I want you to tell the Tribunal is how the Gauleiters came into it unless they were helping the Poles to perpetrate this injustice like many others. How did they come into it?
A. The Gauleiters did not have anything to do with it at all. With the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to mention my own personal experience
Q. I would rather not. I am not interested in your experiences. What I am interested in is why the Poles should be instructed to inform the Gauleiters if necessary? Tell us the sort of circumstances in which the Poles would to to the Gauleiters -- that's what I want to hear.
A. I don't know anything about that. The Gauleiters did not participate in these matters.
Q. So it is your answer that you cannot tell the Tribunal. You cannot imagine any circumstances which would cause Herr Streckenbach to send these instructions to the High SS and Head of Police and one-half dozen Polish districts? You cannot think of anything that would cause that paragraph to come in?
A. I have already said that the writer of that document leaves to those who receive it whether they want to instruct the Gauleiters or not.
Q. Alright, let's look at something else.
My Lord, if your Lordship will turn to page 24. Witness, it is 26 -page 26 in your book. Now, that is a report from Herr Abetz who was the Reich Ambassador in Paris and it has a very large distribution to the Foreign Office and other places, and it is dealing with Jews who had loft Austria and had not changed their Austrian passports for German passports, and also Reich German Jews who had not reported when they were abroad. I want you to look at the end of the first paragraph where Abetz says:
"Suggest for the future a collective expatriation procedure for the occupied territory of France based on lists made here in agreement with Hoheitstrager in which should be listed primarily the members of the following groups:" And then he has listed the ex-Austrians and Jews who have not reported.
A. May I ask where the word Hoheitstrager is to be found?
Q. You see the Number 1 -- well, about three lines before that.
A. Yes, I found it.
Q. "Suggest for the future a collective expatriation procedure for the occupied territory of France based on lists made here in agreement with Hoheitstrager (High Party Leaders) in which should be listed primarily the members of the following groups." lists of the Jews who have not complied with the regulations, and therefore are to be expatriated from comparative safety in France and brought into the Reich where, in 1942, they would probably take a journey into the East and then be gassed? Now, is that a normal type of duty which the Hoheitstrager did -- to make lists of offending Jews for the Reich authorities?
A. First, this is concerned, apparently, with the Hoheitstrager of the organization in Foreign countries, the Ausland Organization.
Q. Yes, that is evident from the word here.
A. To me, as Gauleiter, I have never been asked to perform such services, and if one asked me to perform then, I would have refused to do so.
Q. Just one other point on the Jews. Would you look at Die Lage?
My Lord, this will be GB-534. My Lord, there are copies of the relevant extracts. Die Lage is the situation report giving the military political situation of the day, and you will see, if you will just look back at the beginning, witness, for a moment, if you will look back to the front. Would you be good enough to look back to the front? You will see that it is for August, 1944, and it begins with an article by the Defendant Doenitz on seawarfare. Mow, you notice that at the front it is referring to Hoenge which, I understand, is somewhere near Aachen. NSDAP Hoenge. Now, did you get that? Did you get the Die Lage?
A. Yes.
Q. Well now, just look at page 23, 23 deatling with the Jewish problem in Hungary. "It was a matter of course that the German offices in Hungary did everything possible after March 19th to eliminate the Jewish clement as rapidly and as completely as was at all possible.. In view of the proximity of the Russian front, they commenced with the cleaning up of the northeastern area -- North Transylvania and the Carpathian province -- where the Jewish element was the strongest numerically. Then the Jews were collected in the remaining Hungarian provinces and transported to Germany or German controlled territories. 100,000 Jews remained in the hands of the Hungarians to be employed in Labor battalions." definition of "Jew" in Hungarian Law.
It goes on to say, towards the end of the first paragraph: "Up to the 9th July approximately 430,000 Jews from the Hungarian provinces had been handed over to the German authorities. The handing over takes place on the Hungarian, national frontier, up to which the carrying out of the measures against the Jews, and with it also the responsibility for it, is a matter for the Hungarians." dapest. It says: "At the last stage of the measure against the Jews, the Jews from Budapest were to be deported. It is a question of approximately 260,000. But in the meantime pressure from enemy and neutral countries (Hull --"I suppose that is Mr. Cordell Hull--" the King of Sweden, Switzerlsnd, the Pope) had become so strong that those circles in Hungary that are friendly to the Jews attempted to influence the Hungarian government to prevent any further measures against the Jews". taken against Jews in Hungary, everyone who got "Die Lage" knew what the Germans were doing with regard to the Hungarian Jews, did they not?
A. I have to dissappoint the Prosecutor, because I myself see that magazine today for the first time. I do not deny that it may have been sent to me but I never read it, perhaps because I didn't have the time. However, if it was read in other circles of the Party, I could not say. I myself find out in this form about the measures against the Jews here for the first time.
Q. Well, just let's get the distribution of "Die Lage". It may have been bad luck that you didn't read it -- or good luck; but still, it went to all Gauleiters, it went to all Army and Navy and Air Force Commands. Did it go to the Kreis and the Ortsgruppenleiters?
A. May I ask the Prosecutor to tell me from where that can be seen?
Q. I am asking you whether that is not right. You know it as well as I do, don't you that it went to all Gauleiters and to Army Commands?
A. I have just told the Prosecutor that it is for the first time that I see this book here. It may have been sent to me but I have never seen it before and never read it.
Q. You never read it at all, do you say?
A. I do not know the magazine "Die Lage" and I see it for the first time here today.
Q. So that you can't say whether there was any distribution to Kreisleiters or Orstgruppenleiters?
A. I believe that this distribution is very probable because my attitude to the Jewish question was very well known and my Kreisleiters would have pointed out that article to me; I am quite certain of that.
Q. as I understood you a few moments ago, you said that it was quite possible that you might have got "Die Lage" but you hadn't read it?
A. Yes.
Q. Way did you think it was quite possible that you might have got it if there wasn't a distribution to Gauleiters?
A. I have not asserted that there was no distribution. I just asked the Prosecutor to tell me from where it can be seen that the Gauleiters received that magazine.
Q. Well, you see, I have referred you to the front page, to what was put on the copy which we happened to capture. It has got "NSDAP Hoengen". It doesn't lock as if it was a very restricted distribution if it got to the NSDAP. I am right, am I not, that Hoengen is a village near Aachen; is that not right?
A. I don't knew, whether that is a village near Aachen. What I see here is a note in handwriting. How that was made I can not judge. I see that periodical today for the first time.
Q. All right. Well, we mustn't take up too much time. I will take you on to another point which Dr. Servatius referred to. I want to ask you just one or two questions about the lynching of Allied airmen.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, if your Lorship will look at page 41 of the Book.
Q. Witness, it is page 43 for you. That is an order signed by the defendant Hess, of the 13th of March, 1940.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it is Document 062-PS, USA Exhibit 696, and the subject is:
Instructions to the civilian population regarding appropriate behavior in case of landings of enemy planes or parachutists in German territory. It syas: "The French civilian population was directed officially and by radio how to behave in case of landings of German planes. On account of this fact the Commander in Chief of the Air Force has requested me to instruct the civilian population correspondingly by means of party channels. The attached direction as to procedure are to be disseminated only orally via district leaders (Kreisleiters), local municipal leaders (Ortsgruppenleiter), cell leaders (Zellenleiters), block leaders (Blockleiter), leaders of the incorporated and affiliated organizations of the party. Transmittal by official orders, posters, press or radio is prohibited," Then it says:" Official Stamp: Top Secret." And the various matters, instructions as to the treatment of top secret documents. says: 1. Planes to be put under protection; 2. The airmen are to be arrested at once and restarting or destruction prevented; 3. No looting or taking of souvenirs. Now look at Paragraph 4. "Likewise, enemy parachutists are immediately to be arrested or made harmless.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I think that is a better translation of "unschaedlich gemacht." BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q. Now, what was "asking harmless" -- murdering?
A. The expression "unschaedlich gemacht" in this connection is a bad selection in my opinion, a dangerous selection, According to the situation of this period and since that letter emanated from the deputy of the Fuehrer Hess whose absolutely humane and decent attitude was well known.
Q. Well, you see it is used. You have already got "arrested". The "made harmless" must be something different from "arrested". Don't you think, on consideration, that the ordinary Blockleiter to whom this message was orally given would take it that he was to murder the parachutist if he couldn't arrest him? What is the purpose of all this secrecy if "unschaedlich gemacht" has not that meaning? Why have you got about fifteen different provisions as to the secrecy of this order if it didn't mean murder?
There's nothing else secret in the order, is there? Nothing else that you couldn't put in the hands of a Sunday school?
A. The order contains other points, too, aside from Point 14. I state that, according to the situation of that time, the incriminating expression "unschaedlich gemacht", that is there was any resistance they should be made harmless, but I admit that without an interpretation to those who received that order there may be some danger in the choice of words.
Q. Well, now, that is the defendant Hess. Now just look at Himmler's order of the 10th of August 1943.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, Your Lordship will find it on Page 89 and it is 116 or 117 of your document book.
Q. That is sent on the 10th of August, 1943. It is sent at Himmler's request by one Brand, an SS Obersturmbannfuerer, and you will see that again -- look at the orders for distribution: "At the request of the Reiehsfuehrer SS I am sending you the enclosed order, with the request that the Chief of the Regular Police and of the Security Police be informed; they are to make this instruction known to their subordinate offices verbally. In addition, the Reichsfuehrer SS requests that the Gauleiters concerned be informed verbally of this order. It is not the task of the Police to interfere in clashes between Germans and English and American terror fliers who have bailed out."
Why, again -- why were Gauleiters to be informed verbally if it wasn't that they were to connive at the murder of the airmen?
A. The intention by this order is not clear to me. I also received that order through the Higher SS and Police Leader and I passed it on to the Party; that is to say, the Kreisleiters, to have it passed on to their subordinates and to presidents of police; and I issued the order that, under all circumstances, the flyers should be captured, not maltreated, and should be turned over.
Q. But that wasn't what the order said, you know, if you passed it on. The order said that the police were not to interfere in clashes between Germans and the flyers.
In other words, they were to stand aside and let the flyers be lynched. If you passed that on, that meant that the Leadership Corps were going to to assist and encourage no interference with lynching of Allied airmen, That is what it comes to, isn't it? Well, now, I just want to remind you, that wasn't the end.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, if your Lordship turns to Pages 39 and 40 -- that is 41, witness, in your document book. That is on the 30th of May, 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Did not the witness say then that, according to his understanding, these terror flyers were to be arrested and turned over?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, My Lord, That is quite differnet from the order.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but to whom were they to be turned over? BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q. Witness, to whom did you understand were the terror flyers to be handed over according to your orders?
A. The political leaders, if they participated in the arrest, were to turn over these captured flyers to the police and the police were supposed to turn them over to the Luftwaffe office in question.
Q. Your orders were that the political leaders who participated were to hand them over to the police. Was that the Ordnungspolizei or the Sicherleitspolizei?
A. To the Ordnungspolizei.
Q. Well, now the next order is one of Bormann's on the 30th of May 1944 and you will find it on Page 41. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: It is page 39 of your Lordship's.
Q. You will see the first paragraph says:"In the last few weeks lowflying English and American flyers have repeatedly shot children playing in squares, women and children at work in the fields, peasants plowing, vehicles on the highways, trains, from a low altitude with their aircraft guns, and have thus murdered defenseless civilians -- particularly women and children-- in the vilest manner.
Several instances have occurred where member of the crews of such aircraft who have balled out or have made forced landings were lynched on the spot immediately after capture by the populace which was incensed to the highest degree. No police measures or criminal proceedings were invoked against the German civilians who participated in these incidents." And you will see that that goes to Reichsleiter, Gauleiter, and Kreisleiter, and you will see that on the next page:"The leader of the Party chancellory " -- that is Bormann "requests that the local group leaders (Ortsgruppenleiter) be instructed concerning the content of this circular letter orally only."
A. What order by Bormann is well known to me. I had it stopped b the Gau Staff Chief, and beyond that, for reasons of particular care on the basis of this letter, I issued the order which I have mentioned here to Party and Police as well; that is to say, when I speak of Police, the police chiefs, Polizeipresident, or some casualties, such as are mentioned here, also occurred in Hamburg.
Q. But you don't dispute, do you, witness, that the purpose of that order was to encourge everyone down to Ortsgruppenleiter not to interfere with the lynching of airmen ?
A. No, this can be seen clearly from the wording -
Q. I sm not going to argue about a written document. I prefer to show you how it was interpreted in another Gau. Would you turn to Page 27 -
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If Your Lordship will be good enough to turn to page 25 you will find the Document L-154, USA-335 BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q. That is the Gauleiter Service, 25 February 1945, for Southern Westfalia: The Gauleiter and National Defense Commissioner of the Gau Westfalen-South signed by one Hoffmann, and there is a distribution to County Counsillors, Kreisleiter, an: Staff Chiefs of the Volkesturm. It says: "Fighter-bomber pil who are shut down are on principle not to be protected against the indignation of the people. I expect from all police offices that they will refuse to lend their protection to these gangster types.
Authorities acting in contradiction to the popular sentiment will have to account to me. All police and gendarmerie officials are to be informed immediately of this my attitude." Signed, Albert Hoffmann. der to hold off and not interfere in any way if these flyers were being lynched.