again, 50,000?
Q That's correct. Then he says, "74,000 of the Hitler Youth are organized in its flying units." What do you say about that figure?
A Yes. You say flying units (Flieger Einheiten); that is groups of flying Hitler youths which, asI will emphasize again, were only concerned with gliding or the building of model planes. They may have been as strong as that.
Q Is the figure correct, 74,000?
Q Well, lastly he says, "15,000 boys passed their gliding test in the year 1937 alone." What do you say about that; is it too big or too little or not true at all?
Q Well, now, so far you haven't disagreed with Hitler on any of these, have you?
Q Then, he lastly says, "Today 1,200,000 boys of the Hitler Youth received regular instructions in small bare rifle shooting from 7,000 instructors." What's wrong with that figure, if anything? that we had 7,000 boys who received training for small caliber marksmanship and it is very well known that we carried that out.
Q Actually you haven't disputed any of these figures. They are true, then, to the best of your knowledge, aren't they? in connection with the speech which mentioned the tank force.
Q Well, we don't have it but, if you got it, we'd be glad to see it. But this is the Voelkischer Beobachter speech that was put in by the Prosecution at the time the case against you was put in; at the time there was nothing about the tanks.
that document into the German is incorrect.
Q Well, in any event, we agree that Hitler wasn't very far off on his figures when he made this speech or gave them out?
A No; these figures which you have just mentioned I consider correct
Q Allright. Now, then, in the Year Book of your Hitler Youth for 1939, Stellrecht, your man who had charge of training, uses the same expression. Do you recall that? "To handle a rifle should be just as natural for everybody as to handle a pen"?
A 1939?
A May I know the month?
Q Well, it's in the Hitler Year Book -- the Year Book of the Hitler Youth for the year 1939, at page 227. If you'd like to see it, I'll show it to you.
A No, thank you. I don't have to see it. If he hasmentioned it before, then it is quite possible that he will repeat it.
Q Yes. You see, the importance of it to us is that this is two years after he made this speech, one year after you wrote the preface to his book, and I assume after you found him to be -- what did you say -- unreliable
A No, I didn't say that. On the contrary, he was a very reliable man absolutely reliable; but there were differences between us because I did not agree with him in the question of the over-emphasis on pro-military education essential part; and he put too much in the foreground.
Q All right. But you let him write in the Year Book, and two years after he made the speech, the same kind of a statement,for young people to read, that they should be as handy with a rifle as they were with a won. Did you make any objection when that book was to press? I assume you must have -
Q You didn't proofread it?
A -- and, therefore, I didn't make any objections. that the Wehrmacht had presented to your Hitler Youth in 1937, 10,000 K.K. rifles?
A No, I was very glad about that gift from the armed forces. Since we carried out small caliber marksmanship, I was very grateful for every rifle we received because we always had too few for thatsport training. that there was no shortage of shooting ranges. "Since the beginning of organized shooting in autumn, 1936, 10,000 shooting ranges have acquired that green shooting certificate during weekend and special practice and every year this figure increases by some thousands." Do you remember that in your Year Book for 1939?
A I do not remember it. I consider it highly probable, and I assume that you are presenting it correctly; I do not want to dispute that. Switzerland had a much more intensive shooting training of her youth than we had, and many other countries likewise.
Q I hope you're not comparing yourself to Switzerland, either.
Q This document is 3769-PS, Mr. President; it becomes USA 875. Now, we've heard about this agreement that you and the defendant Koitel drew up in 1939, not very long before the war against Poland started. It was in August of 1939. It's already in evidence, Mr. President, as USA 677. It was the 8th day of August wasn't it -- or 11th day, I'm sorry?
A I don't know the day of that agreement. That agreement had no relation to war. It can be seen from the fact that we only concluded it in August, 1939. attack on Poland? war, it would have had to be concluded much sooner. The fact that it was concluded as late as August shows that we did not think of war, because it would have been important for us to train youth for the war. Then we had to conclude such an agreement in '37 -- '36.
Q Well, in any event, will you agree to this: That this agreement between you and Keitel certainly was related to your shooting practice and related to the army?
training. you have forgotten, in so far as that you don't remember that it had anything to do with your shooting practice. a relation to the shooting sport; that the cross-country sport in the future would take the same place and have the same extent in the Hitler Youth as the shooting sport markmanship.
Q I'll tell you waht it says and you can look at it in a minute. It says that you already have 30,000 Hitler leaders trained and high in field service. And in the whole sentence it says, "In the Leader Schools of the Hitler Youth,particularly in the two Reich schools for shooting practice and field exercises, and in the District Loader Schools, 30,000 loaders are being trained in field service"; and that this agreement gives you the possibility of roughly doubling that number. them, and so on. doesn't it?
Q Well, I misunderstood you then. I thought that you said that it didn't have -
A No, no, I explained that. I said that the cross-country sport should have the same extent in the program as the shooting; but, here again, we are not concerned with the training of Youth leaders to become officers. It is not military training, but a training in cross-country sports of youth leaders. After a few weeks -- I believe it took three weeks - they would return again to their units. Over that period of time one cannot train a young boy of sixteen in the military way.
entering into an agreement over cross-country sports, are you, in August of 1939? Are you serious about that? about the future war.
A -- about the pending war. I stated yesterday that neither do I believe that Fieldmarshal Keitel ever drafted that agreement; I believe one of his assistants did, together with Dr. Stellrecht. If it would have had any importance for the war, one would have certainly not concluded it in August and published it officially.
Q Well, now, listen. You just look at the first paragraph of this and read what it says the propose of this agreement is, and perhaps we can put an end to this discussion . "Between the High Command of the Wehrmacht and the Reich Youth Leadership an agreement was made which represents the result of a close cooperation of the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, General Keitel, and the Youth Leader of the German Reich, von Schirach, and secures the collaboration of the Wehrmacht in the military education of the Hitler Youth."
You don't see anything there about cross-country running, do you, ortraining?
A I should like to give an explanation to that. What you have just quoted is not part of the text of the agreement, but it represents a commentary by the editor of that collection "Das Archiv."
Q Well, I'm not going on, but I'll leave it or to the Tribunal to decide whether that has to do with sports or had any relation to military education.
THE PRESIDENT: I think itis a convenient time to breakoff.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, the report is made that the defendant Raeder is absent.
BY MR. DODD:
Q Mr. Witness, would you agree that from time to time members of your Hitler Youth song songs and otherwise conducted themselves in a manner which certainly was hostile to organized religious institutions? the first years of the National Socialist State. That is a fact which I do not wish to dispute, but I should like to make a short explanation. of young people from the Marxist groups and movement and, of course, it was not possible in the space of two or three or four years' time to institute discipline, but I believe that I am in a position to say that from that first period on, say from 1936 onwards, things of that sort did no longer happen. sort of thing was going on and perhaps save some time. Would you agree to that? They were singing songs such as, "Pope and rabbi shall yield, we want to be pagans again." Are you familiar with that? Do you know that kind of thing? It came to the attention of the minister of Justice, or the prosecuting authority in Baden.
Q Do you know that they sang a song published in the song book "Blut and Ehre", saying, "We want to kill the priest, out with your spear, forward Set the red cock on the cloister roof." You know that old song?
A That is a song which dates back to the Thirty Years' War and asong first world war.
Q You have told me that before. I am trying to out it down. Will you agree that your people were singing it in 1933, 1934 and 1935, to the extent that when clerics objected they were subjected themselves to the prosecuting authorities for interfering and criticising? That is how important it was.
Years' Mar. It is an old song. It was sung by young people now and then in the years 1934-1933. I tried, however, to do away with this song, and as to special complaints which come in because of that, that I cannot give you any information about them.
Q I don't think that we have made clear that these songs were put out in a book which you published for the Hitler Youth to sing in those days. Do youagree to that? song books formany, many years. It is a song which was contained in the first song book of the Wandervogel movement of 1898.
Q I am not really interested in the history. All I am trying to establish is that in your songbook for your young people, the song was present. It was sung. When the church people complained, they were subjected to the prosecuting authorities for cpmplaining.
MR. DODD: It is number 3751-PS. These are extracts from the diary of the prosecuting authorities, the diary of the Minister of Justice. That becomes USA 858. BY HR. DODD: diary of the Minister of Justice on the Catholic vicar Wasmer, criminal proceedings against him, and it is a question of whether a penal sentence should be proposed by Rosenberg because of libel. The bishop in his sermon cited a song being sung by young people. I quoted a few words of it a moment ago about "Pope and rabbi shall yield. Out with the Jews," and so on. The Minister of Justice in his diary goes on to say that this Catholic bishop quoted from "the little book of songs published by Baldur von Schirach a verse with the following text:
"We want to complain to the Lord in heaven That we want to kill the priest,'" and so on:
"'Out with your spear.'" And he further quoted you as saying, "The path of German youth is Rosenberg."
Now, that is what he got into trouble for doing, and I am asking you -- and all I did ask -- is if you won't admit that people who criticized the use of this kind of stuff by your young people and under your leadership were subjected to possible, and in many cases actual, prosecution? You see, you told the Tribunal yesterday that you never did anything directly to interfere with the church, Catholic or Protestant.
A I should like to make a few remarks about this. In the song quoted here the refrain is "Kyrieleis". That word alone shows it is a very old song.
A It may possibly be contained in the songbook "Blood and Honor". I, of course, do not know that penal proceedings were taken against the cleric because he reported this. Archbishop of Paderbern reported the incident of 12 May. In this case he was asking that something be done to stop this sort of thing, and there is a rather nasty little song there about a monk and a nun, and so on, which your young people were singing, and then it goes on to say what happened to the Archbishop when he came out into the square and what the Hitler Youth did and what names they called him, and it says there were seven Hitler Youth leaders from outside present in the city that day and they were in civilian clothing. Do you mean to say you never heard of those things?
A This incident is known to me. I called the competent loader, Vanganke, to account for this entire incident, which upset me greatly, and I shall ask my Counsellor to put questions to a witness, Lauterbacher, who knows about this. There was much excitement in the population at that time, and this is indicated in some of the lines of the song that you quoted. It was caused by some foreign exchange recketeering which some clerics had participated in, and that was the reason why this song of scorn was sung. of those Youth Leaders. Very clearly and unequivocally I disapproved, and these motions belong to some of those incidents, as I have already said, which date book to the years when I had to take many, many youths into my organization from other organizations, and they had an entirely different spiritual background.
a Chaplain Heinrich Hueller and a town clergyman Franz Ruenmer were under suspicion because they said in a circle of Catholic clergy that a certain song was sung by the Hitler Youth at the Party Rally in 1934:
"We are the happy Hitler Youth "No parson, no evil man can prevent us From feeling ourselves to be Hitler children."
A I haven't found the place.
Q It is page 228, a and b. I'm sorry. Maybe you will remember the song anyway if I read it to you. Do you remember the lines that said, "We do not follow Christ but Horst Wessel"?
A This song I am seeing for the first time. I do not know this song.
Q All right; I will not go on reading it. You will notice that in an entry in the diary, the last paragraph, it says:
"The General Prosecuting Authority notes that there is no doubt that the song in question was sung or circulated in the Hitler Youth circles, but he thinks that the statement that the song was sung at the Party Rally, i.e. to a certain extent under the eyes and with the consent of the highest party officials, can be disproved."
A The third stanza reads:
"I am no Christian, No Catholic, I go with the SA through thick and thin."
From that we can gather that it is not a song of the Youth. If the young people sang that song, I am very sorry t o hear that, but at the Party Rally in 1934 this song certainly was not sung at a Festival of Youth.
A The program was always under my supervision. I myself do not know this song. I have never seen the text. In fact, I know nothing about the song.
Q You will notice that the last line says, "Baldur von Schirach, take me with you!" Prosecution to hear you say, as Youth Leader, that youdid not know that there was a great difficulty between the churchmen of all the churches of Germany and the Youth organization in Germany, certainly during these years. in the Youth there was a period of storm and stress and development, and you can judge the organization according to the actions of a few individuals or according to the actions of groups in the same year in which these members were taken into the organization. The result of an educational program can be judged only after years. It would have been possible that a group of youth from a rather Godless organization which was taken into our ranks in 1954 should have composed and sung those songs, but in 1936 they certainly would not have done anything like that any longer.
Q Well, let's see what you were doing in 1937. You know the publication "Enjoyment, Discipline, Belief" Do you know that handbook for cultural work in your youth camps?
Q I'll show it to you, but I wanted to ask you, first of all: Do you know the publication? Do you know what I am talking about when I refer to it?
A I do not know all of the publications. We had such a wealth of publications that unless I have the book in front of me I cannot give any statement regarding it.
Q All right; I'll take your answer that you don't know this one without seeing it. We'll show it to you. This one, among other things, has the program for a week in one of your camps, a suggested series of programs. Again I'll ask you a question and maybe we can cut this down.
Isn't a fact that in your camps you tried to make Hitler and God more than partners, and particularly tried to direct the religious attitudes of young people to the belief that Hitler was sent to this earth by God and was his divinely appointed in Germany? program.
A No. A comparison between Hitler and God was never established by me, and I would consider that as blasphemy. Whoever made that comparison, I always considered it blasphemous. sent by God, a leader sent to the people, that is correct. I believe any great man in history -- and I considered Hitler such a man in the past -- cannot be considered as having been sent by God.
HR. DODD: This is Document 2436-PS, USA-859. your attention to some specific parts. mottoes, I guess you would say, for the day. They are all political or military heroes of Germany, I expect, aren't they?
Q You don't need to read them all. If they are not, say they aren't, and if they are, say yes. I merely asked you if they were not all military or political heroes of Germany. characterized as a war here. At the came time, surely, and in the same measure, he was an artist as well as being an officer.
Q All right, I'll pass that and take your answer that they are not.
Let's move on to the Sunday morning celebration on page 70 of your text, near the end of it. I wanted to particularly direct your attention to this in view of what you said about Rosenberg earlier this afternoon:
"If there is nobody to make a short celebration address -- it must be thrilling and good -- one should read from the 'Kampf' or the speeches of the Leader, from Rosenberg's works " -- do you find that? to do with your Hitler Youth? You were suggesting that for Sunday morning reading, weren't you?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say the reference to Rosenberg is on page 70?
MR. DODD: Of the English text? No, sir. It is page 3; page 70 of the German text. BY MR. DODD:
Q It may be page 71 of your text, Mr. Witness. I had it page 70. You will find it there. Don't you see it?
A Page 71 of the German text. That means one of the numerous handbooks for cultural work. Rosenberg held meetings and some of the educators attended two or three times a year. That a reference is made to some of this does not prove anything, and I believe that you would have to look very, very far before you found this particular passage in the many handbooks for youth.
Q Let me ask you something about this. You find one line in here for the Sunday morning celebration about a churchman, a chaplain, holy scripture, or anything related to religious institutions and tell the Tribunal where it is.
was to be a separation in the religious and state training of youth. A young man who wanted to go to church could go after this morning celebration. This was something that took place at camp. Or before this celebration, if he wished, he could attend mass or attend a Protestant service, and on these Sundays in which there was nothing special planned at the camp -- for this camp lasted only three weeks --- he was completely free to attend church at home with his parents.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, I think it is fair to say that immediately before the words "page 71" there are three lines which might be said to refer to religion.
MR. DODD: Yes, I intend to quote it. I was saving that for a little later. I will be glad to do it now if your Honor prefers to have it.
THE PRESIDENT: No. BY MR. DODD: is suggested for the youth of this camp, on page 89 of your text, or 90, and on page 6 of the English text. I think you will agree that it ridicules, to put it mildly, the Jews, other political parties in Germany. It refers to "Isidor, Isidor" in the opening lines, and it goes on down, "That's when poor Michel was badly off; he was actually the Jewish slave." In another line, "He gave the gang and the Jew a kick." what is it-a shadow show, and "The nose of Isidor must be strongly exaggerated; the German Michel is presented in the customary manner; the Communist as a wild barricade fighter; the Social Democrat with a balloon hat; the centrum party man with a Jesuit cap, and the reactionary with a top hat and a monocle."
Did you ever see one of those shows, by the way?
A On page 89? I am unable to findthis text.
Q I probably have given you the wrong page. I have just been told it is page 154 of your text -- 155, rather.
program for these young people of yours. I wrote the preface, and as far as the context is concerned, I, of course, assume responsibility. I did not read this book in detail beforehand, and I do not wish to dispute that in the camp circus, as we called it, the political caricatures were presented. him thatshe saw this kind of a show. Do you know about that? I am going to show you that letter in a little while, just to show you that it did happen, and that your young peoplewrote to Streicher about it. July -- I think it is page 179 of your text -- the motto for the day is "Our service to Germany is divine service." And that was the slogan you used on other Sundays, and as the Tribunal has pointed out, on page 70 of your text you say that this ceremony for Sunday morning "does not bring any discussions or arguments about confessional points of view, but wants t o s trengthen life and men through the absolute conviction in the might of God and the ideology of the leader and his party, and strengthen then for the completion of great and small tasks." forget to mention Hitler or the leaders of the party, did you?
A Yes, it says here:
"It does not bring any discussions or arguments about confessional points of view, but wants to strengthen life and men through the absolute conviction in the right of God and the ideology of the leader and his party, and strengthen them for the completion of great and small tasks." answer given just a little while ago I did define my attitude.
Q Let's see if you do. In your book "Revolution of Education" on page 148, do you remember this statement:
"The flag of the Third Reich" -we'll begin the whole sentence:
"Service of Germany appears to us more genuine and sincere service of God. The flag of the Third Reich seems to us his flag and the Fuehrer of the people appeared as the savior appointed by him to rescue us from the calamity and peril into which the most pious parties of the defunct German Republic have already plunged us."
A Here I said: "We consider that we are serving the almighty when with our youthful strength we seek to make Germany united and great once more. We see nothing in the loyalty to our Homeland that could mean a contradiction of his Eternal will.On the contrary, service of Germany appears to as a more genuine and sincere service of God; and the flag of the Third Reich seems to us his flag, and the fuehrer of the people appears as the Saviour appointed by him to rescue us from the calamity and the peril into which the most pious parties of the defunct German republic have already plunged us." This refers to the "Zentrum" party. classified as a deification of the Fuehrer. In service to our country I saw service to the Almighty. Let's go on to something else so we can get through. I don't want to neglect to show you, if you care to be shown, that communication to Streicher. It has already been presented to the Tribunal by the British delegation, the British Prosecutor. I think it was read from, but not put in, I am told.
In any event, do you know about that, Mr. Witness? no you know about the letter that the boys and girls of the Youth Hostel at Grossmoellen wrote to Stricher on April of 1936, and they told him about seeing the Jew:
"Every Sunday night the leader presents a play about the Jews with his hand puppet show." here. Grossmoellen, was not an institution, not a part of the HJ, the Hitler Youth Movement. I believe we are concerned here with a Kindergarten of the NSV or some other organization. publishers of the "Sturmer" in order to use it for recruiting purposes.
Q Just a moment. Didn't you take over every youth Hostel in 1933?
youth hostel at Grossmoellen was not a part of the Hitler Youth Organization
A It says here "Jugend Heimstaette," rather than hostel. I an not familiar with the expression "Heimstaette." That must refer to a home of the NSV or a similar organization. We knew only youth homes, Jugen Heim, and hostels.
Q Well, doesn't it strike you as being strangely coincidental that in program for one of your youth comps you suggest a show which portrays a Jewi man with a great nose and ridicules his and teaches children to dislike him laugh at him, and that from a youth camp a youngster writes to Streicher say that she had the boys and girls saw a show?
A That isn't a Youth camp. that this letter was written, but I believe the connection is pulled in by the Hair, so to speak. The connection is very far afield. afield and pulled in by the hair.
A No. I dispute that this is an institution of the Hitler Youth. I believe actually we are concerned here with the NSV.
Q Well, maybe the explanation is that all the young people in Germany : one of those shows. But, in any event, I want to take up the last matter on the subject with you. tery, I believe it was in Austria while you were there, Kl sterneuburg. Do you remember?.
A This morning we discussed the Palace of Count Schwarzenberg. That was a monastery. It was the property of a private citizen.
Q Well, the document that your counsel, Dr. Sauter, referred to was R-1USA 578. It was a letter from Bermann to all Gauleiters, and it began by say valuable church properties had to be seized in Italy and in Austria. It was signed by Bormann. Then also on that document was a letter from Lammers, say that there had been some dispute as to whether the seized church property sh*--* go back to the Reich or should remain in the Gau. You remember that, don't you well, now, you seized a monastry down there, didn't you, in 1941, the Klester euburg? Klosterneuburg, You know hat I am referring to. I may mispronounced
A Yes. The well-known Klosterneuburg, the well-known Monastery. That served for the safekeeping of exhibits of our art historical museum. time?
A I am sorry, I cannot give you the details about this. I believe that there were very few people in the monastery, that the building was not being used to full capacity, and that we needed an expansion for our Hinterland for experimental purposes for the state vineyard school. I believe that this is the way it came about that this monastery was confiscated.
Q All right. I am going to ask that you look at the Document 3927-PS, a I wish you would remember that this morning you told the Tribunal that you stoped the confiscation of churches and church property in Austria. When you lo at this document I wish you would recall your testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you offer M-25 in evidence or not?
MR. DODD: I wish to do so, Mr. President. It is USA 861. And this one, 3927-PS, becomes USA 862. BY MR DODD: is dated the 22nd of January 1941. It is a letter a addressed to Dellbruegge in your organization in Vienna. which the City of Hamburg is also trying to get; and that he wants the monast Klosterneuburg, considered as the place for the Hitler School in Vienna. yesterday. you turn the page you will see it is dated the 13th of January. Bormann says is strictly confidential;
"It has been found out that the population does not show indignation if monasteries (convents) are used for what appears to be generally appropriate.
He goes on to say, "Hospitals, homes, educational institutions, Adolf Hitler Schools." wrote the letter on the 22nd.
Now, turn another page, and you will find a Gestapo report on the monast dated the 23rd of January 1941, addressed to your assistant, Dellbrugge.
I wi you would look where it says "Oral order of 23 January 1941." Apparently somebody in your organization, you or your assistants, rally asked the Gestap to get up a report on this monastery the very day that you wrote to Berlin asking that it be considered as a Hitler School. Gestapo report, but I ask you to turn over further. You will find where you wrote an order for the taking over of the monastery as an Adolf Hitler School on the 22nd of February 1941. I will show it to you if you like to see it, but photostat that you have.
Now, you framed up an excuse to seize that a mastery, didn't you, when y really wanted it for a Hitler School, and you didn't have any just rounds f seizing it. And you got the Gestapo to write a report. Then you never referred to the reason that the Gestapo framed up for you.
A I was chief of these schools. Naturally I placed the greatest stress and value in having this school established in Vienna. The thought which is expressed here is that Klosterneuburg, the monastery, was to be used as an Adolf Hitler School. I considered this thought but briefly, and perhaps mentioned it to Scharizer, but then I completely dropped this idea. This Klosterneuburg never was used as an Adolf Hitler School.