It is the kind of song you had in your song book for young people.
A. I should like to state one more thing. The song book which I have here was published in 1933.
Q. Yes?
A. I do not believe that the youth organization which I have built up can be judged only according to the year 1933.
Q. I don't suggest that either, but we found it in 1945.
A. Later we published other song books, with quite different songs.
Q. Yes, I am going to get around to those in a minute.
That song book was 3764-PS, 854, USA. It has just been called to my attention that the last phrase in that fourth stanza says: "Germany awake. Death to Jewry. People to arms."
A. One moment please, Where is that?
Q. In the English text, in the fourth stanza. I don't know where it would be; it is on page 19, I am told, of the German text. Have you found it?
A. No.
Q. Well, perhaps it is the wrong document. In any event, we will find it for you. However, you remember the song, do you not? You don't deny that it says "Death to the Jews", and so on, do you, in that song?
A. That is the song that starts with the words, "Can you see the dawn in the East?"
Q. That is right.
A. Yes.
Q. That is all I wanted to know.
A. That song is not contained in this book.
(A book was submitted, to the witness.)
Q. We have quite a few of your song books here.
A. Yes, but there is a great difference. This book, where the song is not contained, is an official publication of the Reich Youth Leadership Office. As I have said, we do not find the song there. However, it is in a song book which was published by a music publishing firm, Tonner, in Cologne, and it just has the name, "Songs of the Hitler Youth". However, it is not an official collection of the Reich Youth Leadership. That publishing firm may have published such books in Germany.
Q. All right, I will accept that, but certainly you won't deny that the book was used, will you? That is all we are trying to establish.
A. That I don't know. I don't know whether that book was used by the Hitler Youth.
Q. Do you know that the one in which it is contained was published by you.
(No response)
Well, in any event, I would like to point this out to you. I am not claiming, or trying to suggest to you by questions, that any one of these songs in themselves made young people in Germany move or fight for war; but rather, what I am trying to show is that, as distinguished from the testimony that you gave here yesterday, you were doing somthing more than just giving these boys and girls games to play.
A. It could not be seen from my statements of yesterday that we only played games. Besides such a song, there are numerous others.
Q. Yes, I know, but these are the ones we are concerned with right now. Do you remember the songs, "Unfurl the blood-soaked banners", "Drums sound throughout the land"?
A. These are all songs of the Wandervogel and other youth organizations. They are songs which were sung in the time of the Republic.
Q. Just a minute.
A. They are songs which had nothing definite to do with our period.
Q. Do you think that anybody, in the days of the Republic, was singing Hitler Youth marches?
A. What kind of a song is that? I don't know it.
Q. That is the one, "Drums sound throughout the land". Don't you remember any of these songs, actually?
A. Of course, I know quite a number of these songs. However, the essential songs, or the mass of songs, emanate from the old Zupfgeigen Hansel, and other youth organizations. The youth were always singing songs of the HJ; that goes without saying.
Q. Yes, I don't doubt that they did, but wherever they emanated from, you were using them with these young people. And that one, "Drums sound throughout the Land", you wrote yourself; isn't that so?
A. "Drums sound throughout the land"? Yes, I believe I have written such a song.
Q. All right; that certainly doesn't have a very ancient origin then, does it?
A. Long before the seizure of power.
Q. You also recall, perhaps, that on one occasion General Fieldmarshal von Blomberg wrote an article for the Hitler Year Book. Do you remember that?
A. No.
Q. Well, it wasn't so very long ago. It was in 1938. I suppose you read the Year Book of your organization for that year at tint time, at any rate.
A. That may be assumed, but I cannot remember what Fieldmarshal von Blomberg wrote for it.
A. Well, all right.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, I believe you are passing away from these songs
MR. DODD: Yes, sir; I was.
THE PRESIDENT: But have you offered in evidence yet 3764-PS?
MR. DODD: Yes, sir; I offered it as 854.
THE PRESIDENT: What was 3763?
MR. DODD: No, I am sorry, 3764 is 854, and 3763 -- I am sorry, it is 855.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, 855. BY MR. DODD:
Q. I would like you to look at this document, which is number 3755-PS. I think it is on page 134 of the text that you have, Mr. Witness; and on pages 148 to 150 you will find an article, "Education for War of the German Youth", or rather, it says: "The work 'Education for War of the German Youth', by Dr. Stellrecht, contains a slogan of General Field Marshal von Blomberg, in which the following passage is quoted." And then it goes on to give the quotation. Do you find that? "The fighting spirit is the highest virtue of a soldier." And so on.
Have you found the quotation of Blomberg's? That is what I want to know.
A. Yes.
Q. Then the article by Stellrecht is also contained there, after the quotation.
A. Yes.
Q. When you move down a few lines you will see this sentence: "Therefore, it is a strong and unyielding demand which the General Field Marshal already puts to the young body of men marching in the formations of the Hitler Youth", and so on.
In those days, in 1938, Mr. Witness, you were at least thinking in terms of future military service, and so was Field Marshal von Blomberg, with respect to the Hitler Youth. That is the point I am trying to make.
A. We had a State with compulsory military training.
Q. I know.
A. And it goes without saying that as educators we were also concerned with bringing youth to the highest degree of physical capacity in order to make sure that they would be goo soldiers.
Q. You weren't doing any mere than, that? Is that what you want this Court to understand?
A. What we did further in the way of marksmanship training, in crosscountry sports, and in the training of special units, I described yesterday.
MR. DODD: That is USA 356, Mr. President.
Q. Yes, I know you told us yesterday that whatever else it might have been, it certainly was not any kind of military training.
That man Stellrecht was associated with you, was he not?
A. Dr. Stellrecht held the office of physical training in the Youth -meaning the Hitler Youth -- under Reich Sport Leader Schammer-Osten. That office was one of 21 offices within the Youth Leadership.
Q. He was associated with you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have also used something from him as part of your defense; it is in your document book. Do you know about that?
A. Yes, it is a statement which Dr. Stellrecht made, in which he speaks about the education and training for defense, or the physical training of the youth, and where he says that not a single boy in Germany is trained with weapons of war.
Q. I know that, and therefore I want you to look at another statement that he made on another date.
MR. DODD: That is document 1992-PS, Mr. President, and we offer it as USA-439.
Q. Do you remember when he made the speech to the military men in January of 1937 while he was affiliated with your Hitler Youth Organization? Do you know the speech to which I refer?
consider myself responsible for any statement which he may have made there. ferently. At any event, I ask you whether or not you were aware of and know about the speech and will you tell us whether you do know about it before you look at it? You do know the speech I am talking about, don't you? spoke on a national political course of the armed forces but it was possible that I was informed about it. for it before you knew what he said.
A That, I did not want to express. Between Dr. Stellrecht and myself, there arose, especially on account of a certain tendency which he had concerning the defense training, there arose difficulties and differences because I felt that he emphasized his office too strongly among the other offices and further differences arose which finally led to his dismissal from the Reich youth leadership. and I wish now you would look at page -- well, I have it on page 3 of the English and it is page 169 of the text that you have and it begins at the very bottom of the English page, and the paragraph reads;
"In regard to work with pure military education up to the last detail of training and which, with, on mutual consent includes a foreword and a preface by the Reichsminister of War and the Reich Youth Leader."
And then the next paragraph: "The basic idea of this work is to present to the boy what fits into the particular stage of his development." and so forth. And I want you to come to the sentence that says: "For that reason no boy is given a military weapon, simply because it does not make sense from the point of view of development. But, on the other hand, it makes sense to give him practice guns of smaller caliber. Just as there are military exercises which fit only adult men, there are exercises which are better tackled at the age of a boy."
last paragraph, page 170 of your text, you will find in the next to the last paragraph that your Dr. Stellrecht says, "This is a picture of the goal of great education which starts with the playful training of the boy in the terrain and completes itself in the training in the Armed Forces." and I think it is page 171 of your text, the next to the last paragraph, in talking about the hiking trip, he says that: "....has still another purpose ..... because it is the only way in which the boy can get acquainted with his fatherland for which he will have to fight one day." attention to page six of the English text and page 174 and 175 of your text. In the last paragraph of the English text, you will find this sentence which says: "All training, therefore, culminates in training in shooting. It cannot be emphasized enough and because shooting is a matter of practice, one cannot start too early. In the course of years we want to achieve that a gun feels just as natural in the hands of a German boy as a pen." and page 176 of your text. Your Dr. Stellrecht says more about shooting and how it "meets with the desire of a boy;" and then he goes on to say that ".....there is special training for the new replacement generation in the Airforce, Navy and motorized troops. The training course for this has been established with the competent authorities in the Armed Forces. In addition, there is training communications on a broad basis and, in the country, cavalry training." the next to the last paragraph of the English text, where I want to call your attention to this sentence, or it is two from thelast paragraph in the English text: "Military education and 'ideological' education belong together." The English text says "philosophical" but I think it is a mistranslation and actually in German it is "ideological". And you see the sentence that says in the next paragraph: "The education of youth has to take care that the knowledge and the principles, according to which the state and the Armed Forces of our time have been organized and which support them, enter so thoroughly into the thoughts of the individual that they never again can be taken away and remain directiongiving principles through life."
And the last paragraph of that speech, Mr. Witness, I wish you would look at because I think you used the term "playful" yesterday, if I am not mistaken, and Dr. Stellrecht, anyway, a little earlier in his speech. Here is what he said to the military men that day. "Gentlemen, you can see for yourself that the tasks of present German youth education have gone far beyond the 'playful'"-- "playful" in quotation marks.
Are you sure, now, that you didn't have any kind of a program for military training in your youth organization? a whole in order to be able to answer, that Dr. Stellrecht, to say it mildly, considered himself very important there. The importance of Dr. Stellrecht for the education of the youth and the importance of his office within the youth -- meaning Hitler youth -- was definitely not as much as he presnts it here before a course in the armed forces. I have said before already that between himand myself, on account of his exaggerations, particularly because the training in shooting and that which he called "military training" was exaggerated by him, overestimated, and that led to differences which in turn led to his dismissal from the Reich youth leadership. He wasone of the many heads of offices and the significance of his activity is not as large as he wants to describe it here with his words. I believe that I have explained yesterday what large number of tasks were given to us and I believe I was able to explain also the proportion of the pre-military training such as direct courses to the other forms of education. It is also clearly expressed in that document that one did not want to parallel military education, which I said yesterday. If he says that every German boy should learn to handle the gun just as well as a pen, then that is a manner of expression with which I cannot identify myself. that we brought it out in view of the fact that you have, yourself, offered before this Tribunal, a statement by Stellrecht in your own document.
You are aware of that, of course, aren't you? You want, of course, to have us understand Stellrecht is reliable when you quote him but he is not reliable when we quote him, is that it?
A That, I will not say at all. He is a specialist for the training in marksmanship and outdoor sports, and, of course, he took his tasks such as can be understood as the most important in youth training. Probably another man in his place would have considered the present work or cultural work or occupational competition contests as the most important in youth training. Probably another man in his place would have considered the present work or cultural work or occupational competition contests as the most important thing. At any rate, for the education of German youth, not that, was essential which Stellrecht mentioned in a course for soldiers but that what I said before the youth leaders. you wrote a preface for his book, didn't you? which that preface was written. in and published in Germany but not only made thespeech but was put out in pamphlet form, wasn't it? you. I think you will see that. Well, in any event, we will pass along. You told the Tribunal yesterday that the statement in the "Voelkischer Beobachtor", attributed to Hitler, on the 21st day of February 1938, was somewhat of a mystery to you; you did not know where he got his figures from. Did you understand what I said, Mr. Witness? that quotation from Hitler in the "VoelkischerBeobachter?"
Q What is wrong with those figures?
the text which I have, and which in the translated text there are errors, most probably he has received these figures from the office of Dr. Stellrecht; that is what I assume and, however, that which is said about armored troops, in my opinion, he had added himself because of the consequence of some ten thousand youth getting driving lessons, from that one can draw the conclusion they had been trained for the armored force, that is erroneous.
Q Well, you see, he didn't say so. You understand it was your Fuehrer who said so in February, 1938, and what I asked you was that I wish perhaps We can go through it and you can tell the Tribunal where they are in error and to what extent. Hitler said,according to thepress, that your naval Hitler youth comprised 45,000 boys. Would you say that figure was too large and a together untrue?
Q That is correct?
Q You said the motor Hitler youth, 60,000 boys. What do you say about that figure? 55,000 members of the Jungvolk were trained in gliding for group meetings. What do you say about that figure?
again, 50,000?
Q That's correct. Then he says, "74,000 of the Hitler Youth are organized in its flying units." What do you say about that figure?
A Yes. You say flying units (Flieger Einheiten); that is groups of flying Hitler youths which, asI will emphasize again, were only concerned with gliding or the building of model planes. They may have been as strong as that.
Q Is the figure correct, 74,000?
Q Well, lastly he says, "15,000 boys passed their gliding test in the year 1937 alone." What do you say about that; is it too big or too little or not true at all?
Q Well, now, so far you haven't disagreed with Hitler on any of these, have you?
Q Then, he lastly says, "Today 1,200,000 boys of the Hitler Youth received regular instructions in small bare rifle shooting from 7,000 instructors." What's wrong with that figure, if anything? that we had 7,000 boys who received training for small caliber marksmanship and it is very well known that we carried that out.
Q Actually you haven't disputed any of these figures. They are true, then, to the best of your knowledge, aren't they? in connection with the speech which mentioned the tank force.
Q Well, we don't have it but, if you got it, we'd be glad to see it. But this is the Voelkischer Beobachter speech that was put in by the Prosecution at the time the case against you was put in; at the time there was nothing about the tanks.
that document into the German is incorrect.
Q Well, in any event, we agree that Hitler wasn't very far off on his figures when he made this speech or gave them out?
A No; these figures which you have just mentioned I consider correct
Q Allright. Now, then, in the Year Book of your Hitler Youth for 1939, Stellrecht, your man who had charge of training, uses the same expression. Do you recall that? "To handle a rifle should be just as natural for everybody as to handle a pen"?
A 1939?
A May I know the month?
Q Well, it's in the Hitler Year Book -- the Year Book of the Hitler Youth for the year 1939, at page 227. If you'd like to see it, I'll show it to you.
A No, thank you. I don't have to see it. If he hasmentioned it before, then it is quite possible that he will repeat it.
Q Yes. You see, the importance of it to us is that this is two years after he made this speech, one year after you wrote the preface to his book, and I assume after you found him to be -- what did you say -- unreliable
A No, I didn't say that. On the contrary, he was a very reliable man absolutely reliable; but there were differences between us because I did not agree with him in the question of the over-emphasis on pro-military education essential part; and he put too much in the foreground.
Q All right. But you let him write in the Year Book, and two years after he made the speech, the same kind of a statement,for young people to read, that they should be as handy with a rifle as they were with a won. Did you make any objection when that book was to press? I assume you must have -
Q You didn't proofread it?
A -- and, therefore, I didn't make any objections. that the Wehrmacht had presented to your Hitler Youth in 1937, 10,000 K.K. rifles?
A No, I was very glad about that gift from the armed forces. Since we carried out small caliber marksmanship, I was very grateful for every rifle we received because we always had too few for thatsport training. that there was no shortage of shooting ranges. "Since the beginning of organized shooting in autumn, 1936, 10,000 shooting ranges have acquired that green shooting certificate during weekend and special practice and every year this figure increases by some thousands." Do you remember that in your Year Book for 1939?
A I do not remember it. I consider it highly probable, and I assume that you are presenting it correctly; I do not want to dispute that. Switzerland had a much more intensive shooting training of her youth than we had, and many other countries likewise.
Q I hope you're not comparing yourself to Switzerland, either.
Q This document is 3769-PS, Mr. President; it becomes USA 875. Now, we've heard about this agreement that you and the defendant Koitel drew up in 1939, not very long before the war against Poland started. It was in August of 1939. It's already in evidence, Mr. President, as USA 677. It was the 8th day of August wasn't it -- or 11th day, I'm sorry?
A I don't know the day of that agreement. That agreement had no relation to war. It can be seen from the fact that we only concluded it in August, 1939. attack on Poland? war, it would have had to be concluded much sooner. The fact that it was concluded as late as August shows that we did not think of war, because it would have been important for us to train youth for the war. Then we had to conclude such an agreement in '37 -- '36.
Q Well, in any event, will you agree to this: That this agreement between you and Keitel certainly was related to your shooting practice and related to the army?
training. you have forgotten, in so far as that you don't remember that it had anything to do with your shooting practice. a relation to the shooting sport; that the cross-country sport in the future would take the same place and have the same extent in the Hitler Youth as the shooting sport markmanship.
Q I'll tell you waht it says and you can look at it in a minute. It says that you already have 30,000 Hitler leaders trained and high in field service. And in the whole sentence it says, "In the Leader Schools of the Hitler Youth,particularly in the two Reich schools for shooting practice and field exercises, and in the District Loader Schools, 30,000 loaders are being trained in field service"; and that this agreement gives you the possibility of roughly doubling that number. them, and so on. doesn't it?
Q Well, I misunderstood you then. I thought that you said that it didn't have -
A No, no, I explained that. I said that the cross-country sport should have the same extent in the program as the shooting; but, here again, we are not concerned with the training of Youth leaders to become officers. It is not military training, but a training in cross-country sports of youth leaders. After a few weeks -- I believe it took three weeks - they would return again to their units. Over that period of time one cannot train a young boy of sixteen in the military way.
entering into an agreement over cross-country sports, are you, in August of 1939? Are you serious about that? about the future war.
A -- about the pending war. I stated yesterday that neither do I believe that Fieldmarshal Keitel ever drafted that agreement; I believe one of his assistants did, together with Dr. Stellrecht. If it would have had any importance for the war, one would have certainly not concluded it in August and published it officially.
Q Well, now, listen. You just look at the first paragraph of this and read what it says the propose of this agreement is, and perhaps we can put an end to this discussion . "Between the High Command of the Wehrmacht and the Reich Youth Leadership an agreement was made which represents the result of a close cooperation of the Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, General Keitel, and the Youth Leader of the German Reich, von Schirach, and secures the collaboration of the Wehrmacht in the military education of the Hitler Youth."
You don't see anything there about cross-country running, do you, ortraining?
A I should like to give an explanation to that. What you have just quoted is not part of the text of the agreement, but it represents a commentary by the editor of that collection "Das Archiv."
Q Well, I'm not going on, but I'll leave it or to the Tribunal to decide whether that has to do with sports or had any relation to military education.
THE PRESIDENT: I think itis a convenient time to breakoff.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, the report is made that the defendant Raeder is absent.
BY MR. DODD:
Q Mr. Witness, would you agree that from time to time members of your Hitler Youth song songs and otherwise conducted themselves in a manner which certainly was hostile to organized religious institutions? the first years of the National Socialist State. That is a fact which I do not wish to dispute, but I should like to make a short explanation. of young people from the Marxist groups and movement and, of course, it was not possible in the space of two or three or four years' time to institute discipline, but I believe that I am in a position to say that from that first period on, say from 1936 onwards, things of that sort did no longer happen. sort of thing was going on and perhaps save some time. Would you agree to that? They were singing songs such as, "Pope and rabbi shall yield, we want to be pagans again." Are you familiar with that? Do you know that kind of thing? It came to the attention of the minister of Justice, or the prosecuting authority in Baden.
Q Do you know that they sang a song published in the song book "Blut and Ehre", saying, "We want to kill the priest, out with your spear, forward Set the red cock on the cloister roof." You know that old song?
A That is a song which dates back to the Thirty Years' War and asong first world war.
Q You have told me that before. I am trying to out it down. Will you agree that your people were singing it in 1933, 1934 and 1935, to the extent that when clerics objected they were subjected themselves to the prosecuting authorities for interfering and criticising? That is how important it was.
Years' Mar. It is an old song. It was sung by young people now and then in the years 1934-1933. I tried, however, to do away with this song, and as to special complaints which come in because of that, that I cannot give you any information about them.
Q I don't think that we have made clear that these songs were put out in a book which you published for the Hitler Youth to sing in those days. Do youagree to that? song books formany, many years. It is a song which was contained in the first song book of the Wandervogel movement of 1898.
Q I am not really interested in the history. All I am trying to establish is that in your songbook for your young people, the song was present. It was sung. When the church people complained, they were subjected to the prosecuting authorities for cpmplaining.
MR. DODD: It is number 3751-PS. These are extracts from the diary of the prosecuting authorities, the diary of the Minister of Justice. That becomes USA 858. BY HR. DODD: diary of the Minister of Justice on the Catholic vicar Wasmer, criminal proceedings against him, and it is a question of whether a penal sentence should be proposed by Rosenberg because of libel. The bishop in his sermon cited a song being sung by young people. I quoted a few words of it a moment ago about "Pope and rabbi shall yield. Out with the Jews," and so on. The Minister of Justice in his diary goes on to say that this Catholic bishop quoted from "the little book of songs published by Baldur von Schirach a verse with the following text:
"We want to complain to the Lord in heaven That we want to kill the priest,'" and so on:
"'Out with your spear.'" And he further quoted you as saying, "The path of German youth is Rosenberg."
Now, that is what he got into trouble for doing, and I am asking you -- and all I did ask -- is if you won't admit that people who criticized the use of this kind of stuff by your young people and under your leadership were subjected to possible, and in many cases actual, prosecution? You see, you told the Tribunal yesterday that you never did anything directly to interfere with the church, Catholic or Protestant.
A I should like to make a few remarks about this. In the song quoted here the refrain is "Kyrieleis". That word alone shows it is a very old song.
A It may possibly be contained in the songbook "Blood and Honor". I, of course, do not know that penal proceedings were taken against the cleric because he reported this. Archbishop of Paderbern reported the incident of 12 May. In this case he was asking that something be done to stop this sort of thing, and there is a rather nasty little song there about a monk and a nun, and so on, which your young people were singing, and then it goes on to say what happened to the Archbishop when he came out into the square and what the Hitler Youth did and what names they called him, and it says there were seven Hitler Youth leaders from outside present in the city that day and they were in civilian clothing. Do you mean to say you never heard of those things?
A This incident is known to me. I called the competent loader, Vanganke, to account for this entire incident, which upset me greatly, and I shall ask my Counsellor to put questions to a witness, Lauterbacher, who knows about this. There was much excitement in the population at that time, and this is indicated in some of the lines of the song that you quoted. It was caused by some foreign exchange recketeering which some clerics had participated in, and that was the reason why this song of scorn was sung. of those Youth Leaders. Very clearly and unequivocally I disapproved, and these motions belong to some of those incidents, as I have already said, which date book to the years when I had to take many, many youths into my organization from other organizations, and they had an entirely different spiritual background.
a Chaplain Heinrich Hueller and a town clergyman Franz Ruenmer were under suspicion because they said in a circle of Catholic clergy that a certain song was sung by the Hitler Youth at the Party Rally in 1934:
"We are the happy Hitler Youth "No parson, no evil man can prevent us From feeling ourselves to be Hitler children."
A I haven't found the place.
Q It is page 228, a and b. I'm sorry. Maybe you will remember the song anyway if I read it to you. Do you remember the lines that said, "We do not follow Christ but Horst Wessel"?
A This song I am seeing for the first time. I do not know this song.
Q All right; I will not go on reading it. You will notice that in an entry in the diary, the last paragraph, it says:
"The General Prosecuting Authority notes that there is no doubt that the song in question was sung or circulated in the Hitler Youth circles, but he thinks that the statement that the song was sung at the Party Rally, i.e. to a certain extent under the eyes and with the consent of the highest party officials, can be disproved."
A The third stanza reads:
"I am no Christian, No Catholic, I go with the SA through thick and thin."
From that we can gather that it is not a song of the Youth. If the young people sang that song, I am very sorry t o hear that, but at the Party Rally in 1934 this song certainly was not sung at a Festival of Youth.
A The program was always under my supervision. I myself do not know this song. I have never seen the text. In fact, I know nothing about the song.