that the Gauleiter could make suggestions and present requests to the Manpower Administration, but they were held responsible - - I don't know whether that was by this decree or another one - - for the supervision of the food supply and the quartering of foreign workers. This feeding and quartering of foreign workers was, in my Gau and I believe also in all other Gaus of the Reich, in the hands of the German Labor Front especially.
frequently about the conditions among German workers and foreign workers in the Gau. He frequently accompanied me on inspections of industries, and from my own observations I can describe my impressions here of the life of foreign workers in Vienna such as I could see it. factory where I saw barracks in which Russian and French women were living. They had better quarters there than many Viennese families which lived with six or eight people in a two-room apartment. It was clean and neat, and among the Russian women who were there I noticed that they were gay, well nourished, and apparently satisfied. of many of my assistants, I know about the treatment of Russian domestic workers, and here, also, I have heard, and in part observedmyself, that they were very well treated. foreign workers. For centuries foreign workers have worked in Vienna. To bring foreign workers from the southeast of Vienna is not a problem at all. One likes to go to Vienna just asone likes to go to Paris. I have seen many Frenchmen and French women who worked in Vienna, and at times I spoke to them.
I talked to French formen in factories. They lived as tenants somewhere in the city, just like anybody else.
In the streets of Vienna one saw the foreign workers taking walks. One saw them in the Prater. They spent their time off just asour own native workers. there are in any ether Gau in Germany. Of course in these kitchens the foreign workers benefited just asmuch asthe native workers. in a city which has had the custom for centuries to work together with foreign elements, that population on its own will treat any worker well who comes from abroad.
Bad conditions were not reported to me. From time to time, here and there, it was reported that something wasnot going well. It was the duty of the Gau leader of the labor front to report that to me. Then immediately from my desk by telephone I issued a directive to the food office or the quota office for the supply of kitchens or heating installations, or something like that. At any rate, I tried within 24 or 48 hours to take care of allrequests that came to me. manpower in general. I am not responsible for the importation of labor. I can only say that which I saw in the way of directives and orders from the general Plenipotentiary Sauckel. That always went in a direction of a humane, decent, just and clean treatment of the workers which we had on our hands. Sauckel flooded his offices with such directives. don't consider yourself responsible, were they employed in the armament industry or elsewhere?
Whether there were some in the armament industry I could not say. The armament industry in all its parts, even in my functions as Gauleiter, was not accessible to me, because there were parts of war production which were kept secret even to the Reich Governor.
Q Witness, in connection with the chapter, "Jewish Forced Labor", a letter was read, Document 3803-PS. That is, I believe, a handwritten letter from the defendant Kaltenbrunner to Blaschke. Blaschke, I believe, was the second mayor of Vienna.
Q This is a letter of the 30th of June 1944. In that letter Kaltenbrunner informs Blaschke that Kaltenbrunner had directed that several evacuation transports should be sent to Vienna, Strasshof.
"There are four transports", it says in the letter, "with about 12,000 Jews, which will arive in a few days."
So much about the letter. The further content is only of importance because it says in the end -- and I quote:
"Further details you will arrange with the Staatspolizeistelle, State Police Office, Vienna, SS Sturmbannfuehrer Hebner, and SS Sturmbannfuehrer Kumei, of the Special Command, Hungary, who is at present in Vienne." End of quotation.
Did you have anything to do with that matter, and, if so, what? Kaltenbrunner and the mayor of Vienna. To my knowledge that Camp Strasshof is not within the Gau Vienna. It is in a different Gau. The designation "Vienna, Strasshof", is, therefore, a mistake. There is a borderline between. here, by the document in the court room? that in connection with the establishment of the Southeast wall, mention wasmade about the use of Jewish workers. The southeast wall, however, was not in the area of the Reich Gau Vienna. It was an establishment which was erected in the area of the Gau Nieder Donav, Lower Danube, or Styria. I had nothing to do with the construction of that defense installation, but that was in the handsof Dr. Jurl or the O.T. That is the Organization Todt. And on the other part beyond the border it was in the handsof Dr. Ueberreiter, the Gauleiter of Styria, and his technical assistant. with these things because they were matters which had nothing to do with the area of your Gau.
A Yes. I cannot understand what connection should arise for the Gau Vienna. Whether the mayor intended to keep some of those workers for special tasks in Vienna is not known to me. I do not know about that matter.
Q In the same connection, "witness, another document hasbeen submitted, 1948-PS. There is a file note of 7 November 1940. That was a date at which you had been Gauleiter in Vienna for several months, and it also concern forced labor of the Jews who were capable for work.
That letter or file note was written on the stationery with the heading of the Reich Governor of Vienna, and apparently the note in question was written by a Dr. Fischer. Who is that Dr. Fischer? What did you, asReich Governor, have to do with that matter? What do you know about it?
A First, Dr. Fischer is not known to me personally. I do not want to dispute the possibility that he may have been introduced to me and that I don't remember him; but I don't know why Dr. Fischer is. At any rate, he was not an expert working in my central office. I assume that he may have been an official, because his name appears also in connection with another document. He was possibly the personal official of the Regierungspresident. The note shows that this official used my stationery, and he was entitled to do that. I believe several thousand people in Vienna were entitled to do that, to use that stationery. can be seen that the Reich Security Main office -- that is, Heydrich, RSHA -was the office which decided about the use of Jewish manpower by internal directivesof the Gestapo. that I wasinformed about cruelties by the Gestapo such asthe Prosecution has concluded. It is doubtful whether at that I was at all in Vienna. I want to remind you of my other tasks, which I have described before. the cleaning of the streets. I should like to say principally that the variety of my tasks brought it about that I had to establish a construction of an organizational nature which did not exist in ether Gaus, that is, the Central Office of the Reich Leader. officials you had, howmany employees you had in Vienna under you.
DR. SAUTER: Shall I continue, Mr. President? It is 5:00 o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned at 1700 hours to reconvene 24 May 1946, 1000 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 24 May 1946.) BY DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the defendant Sauckel): the directives given by Sauckel. Regarding manpower, you have already stated that you were flooded with such directives. Were these directives also carried out?
AAs far as I was informed about it, I can confirm that. I had the impression that the functionaries of the Manpower Administration said that they had to keep strictly to the directives of Sauckel, and that that which wasdemanded in these directives was actually carried out. out?
A Yes. I remember that Sauckel once came to Vienna, I believe in 1943 or 1944 -- 1943, I rather believe -- and that he spoke on that occasion to all his functionaries concerned with manpower and repeated orally everything which he had expressed in his directives. In particular, he expressed himself concerning the foreign workers, demanded just treatment, and I remember that on that occasion he even spoke of equality with domestic workers.
Q I have a few more questions about the political leaders. How were political leaders on the level of the Gau informed? Were there conferences for the Gauleiters with the Fuehrer, especially in connection with the Gau rallies?
A No. At the Gauleiter meetings, the Fuehrer in conversations before larger circles always expressed himself just as he did in his speeches. Real conversations did not exist. He always made speeches. Dates on which Gauleiters could be heard by Hitler did not occur any more after the war started.
Q Couldn't a Gauleiter appraoch Hitler personally and ask for an interview?
A He could ask for an interview, but he didn't receive it; his request wasn't granted. He received an answer from Bormann, usually by telegram. I have seen that myself very frequently, because I made such requests and it was ordered that one should submit in writing the points about which one wanted to speak, and then one received either an answer or no answer. by Gauleiter Sprenger. You were here when it was submitted and you know the document. I have two questions about it. containing the names of those afflicted with heart and lung disease who should be removed from the population?
Q On that, were you supposed to make suggestions to the Fuehrer?
A. No. has been mentioned here That is, it says there "Herren Ortsgruppenleiter," and repeated mention is made of the Herren Kreisleiters and Ortsgruppenleiters in the text. I ask you now if that was common usage in the language of the Party? exception of that one which I consider a fraud -- where the term "Herr" was used. that the document is false?
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions. BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for the defendant Seyss-Inquart):
Buerckel. What was the relationship between Buerckel and Seyss-Inquart? Party about that relationship. It was extremely bad, and all of us had the impression that Buerckel, from the very beginning, intended to push Seyss-Inquart out.
Q Which one of the two really had the power in his hands? which can be seen from the files, who is responsible for the persecution of Jews in Vienna?
Q All right, you say Hitler, but Hitler was not in Vienna. Who carried out these orders in Vienna? the period of Buerckel and Seyss-Inquart -- by the same man who has been mentioned here once before, and who in the meantime has been condemned to death in Vienna, Dr. Brunner. Buerckel against the severe measures and had difficulties with Buerckel on account of that?
AAbout that I can't say anything because I don't know it. tapestry and Gobelins from the former imperial property to Hitler. Do you know anything about that?
A I know the following: In the large collection of Gobelin in Vienna, there were two series of the battle of Alexander. One series of inferior quality was sent by the Reich Governor Seyss-Inquart to the Reich Chancellory as a loan, and it could be seen there. meant a loss?
A., In the catalogue of the collection, that series was marked as a loan.
Q. Is it known to you that other Gobelins were put at the disposal of the Reich; that is to say, Adolf Hitler, by Seyss-Inquart?
A. No, I know nothing of that.
Q. But maybe you know that somebody else may have taken such Gobelins and tapestries with him?
A. I assume that you are hinting at Buerckel.
Q. Yes.
A. Whether Buerckel took Gobelins with him, I do not know for sure. When I took over my office in Vienna, I found out that Buerckel had taken from the Imperial Depot a number of pieces of furniture, and I believe also some carpets, not for his personal use but for his so-called Vienna House, which he intended to establish in the Gau Sahrpfalz as a sort of club, and that he had taken these things along. whether it was the Reich Finance Ministry or the Reich Ministry of Culture-and when I was not successful there, I approached Hitler himself. And finally I succeeded in having Buerckel ordered to return these objects to Vienna at once. turned. I know that he was charged to do so, and I assume that these objects then later were, in fact, returned.
Q. All right. You know from segments which I have read to you as defense counsel that we always hated Goebbels for very serious reasons, and that to be loyal and decent one has to admit that many things became much better, in general, under your office. Therefore, it seems all the more important to me that the most serious charge against you should be clarified. You have been charged with the responsibility as Reich Commissar that it was your fault, or through your guilt, that the most valuable monument of Vienna had been destroyed your National Socialist mayor, Ingeneur Blaschke, were in favor of declaring Vienna an open city when the Red army approached, you were against it and issued the order that Vienna had to be defended to the last.
Or who did give that order?
A. Neither Blaschke nor Schlaritzer demanded of me that Vienna should be declared an open city.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, did I understand that you are appearing for the defendant Seyss-Inquart?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, because this is a crime, and according to the theory of conspiracy, that is also pertinent. The charge made against von Schirach concerns these destructions, and it has been clarified who, in fact, gave that order which caused so much damage.
THE PRESIDENT: But you just said that you were not asking the questions in the defense of Seyss-Inquart, but in the defense of von Schirach. I do not think that we really ought to have the defense of von Schirach prolonged by questions by other counsel. We have already had his defense for a considerable time presented by Dr. Sauter.
DR. STEINBAUER: Then I shall not put this question. BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Is it also know to you, or do you remember, what the attitude of SeyssInquart was in clerical questions, or questions of the church, as compared to Buerckel's?
A. It is only known to me that Dr. Seyss-Inquart, generally speaking, was considered a man with ties with the church. That conflicts arose with Buerckel out of that fact is quite clear to me. I cannot speak about details.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecution wish to cross examine? BY MR. DODD:
Q. Mr witness, we understood you this morning to make a statement in the nature of a confession with respect to, at least, the persecution of the Jews; and while that part of this that you gave was perhaps bravely enough said, I think there is much of it that you neglected to say, perhaps through oversight.
a fact that your responsibility for young people in Germany under the national socialists was fundamentally concerned with making really good national socialists out of them, in the sense of making them finatical political followers. citizens in the national socialite state. tical policies? youth in the following of Hitler. I do not deny that.
Q All right. And while you said to us that you did not have the first responsibility for the educational system, I am sure you would not deny that for all of the other activities with which young people may be concerned, you did have first responsibility? sibility. these young people were those who were politically reliable in keeping with Hitler's opinions and beliefs and the teachings of national socialism? genous. A large part of that teaching body belonged to a generation which had not been educated in the national socialist sense, nor adhered to national socialism. The young teachers passed through national socialist education. people under the public educational system of Germany were not at all times under the guidance of those who were politically re liable, certainly after the first year or two of the administration of Hitler and his followers, are you?
A Would you please repeat the question? I did not quite understand. doubt in your mind or in ours that the public school system of Germany was supervised, for the most part, at least, by people who were politically sound in so far as national socialism was concerned.
A That I could not quite confirm. Education and educational administration in Germany were under the supervision of Reichsminister Rust, who -- and that is a fact -- for reasons of ill health was very little concerned with his official duties. In the administration of education, many thousands of older employees were still employed who had been employed a long time before the motional socialist state had functioned, and were maintained. they had been in office. They all took an oath to Hitler, did they not?
A That is correct; as far as they were employees, they all took the oath of employees. ple in Germany, did he not?
A That I do not believe. I believe that the influence of my co-defendant Rosenberg on youth is exaggerated and not recognized correctly. Rosenberg suddenly had some influence on many people who were concerned with philosophical problems, and were in a position to understand his writings. was the way of the Hitler Youth, did you not?
Q (Interposing) Never mind the why's and wherefore's. Did you say it or not?
Q When was it? youth there. But later I led the youth myself in an entirely different path.
Q We will got around to that a little later. But in any event, on this occasion in Berlin, when you had a large group of your youth leaders present, you were doing your best, at least, to have them understand that the way of Rosenberg was the way that they should follow? different instructions from me.
Q Well. I say that may be so. We will get around to those different instructions, but on this occasionaand at that time, insofar as you were concerned, you wanted them to understand that they were to follow Rosenberg's way, didn't you? at that time. That was the question of denominational youth organizations. On this point Rosenberg and I agreed, whereas on many other points we differed. That was the point to which that statement referred.
Q Rosenberg's way certainly wasn't the way of young people remaining faithful to their religious obligations or teachings, was it?
Q What do you mean? You don't know? a statement which expressed that young people should become disloyal to their religious convictions.
Q Well, I don't know that he ever said it that way either, but I think you do know perfectly well, as do many other people who were outside of Germay through all of these years, that Rosenberg was a violent opponent of organized religious institutions. You don't deny that, do you? one cannot formulate it like that. Rosenberg has in no way tried to influence youth in the sense that it should leave religious denominations.
Q And later on, actually, aren't you willing to now say that later on, and perhaps at that time, in a secret and indirect sort of way you played Rosenberg's game by arranging youth affairs at hours when church ceremonies were going on? church. During those years, 1933-34, my main concern was the denominational youth organizations. That I have explained yesterday.
Q I know. You garbled them up, and they all had to join your organization sooner or later. But I am not talking about that now. What I am trying to say--and I think you must agree--is that for a considerable period of time you made it really impossible for young people of certain religious beliefs to attend their church services, because you scheduled your youth affairs at which attendance was compulsory.
Q You say that is not so? Didn't the Catholic Bishops time out of mind publicly object to this very sort of thing, and don't you know it as well as I do? that you were scheduling your youth affairs on Sunday mornings when their clerics were holding services? clergyment approached either me or complained in public that their spiritual care was impaired by the activities of the Hitler Youth, and that is why I passed that final regulation, which can be seen in the document which my counsel has submitted to the Court yesterday.
Q Well, I don't think that is altogether an answer, and perhaps I can help your memory by recalling for you that your organization specifically provided that these young people who were attending church on Sunday could not go in uniform. That was a very purposeful thing, wasn't it, because they couldn't get out of church and get to their Youth attendance that youths in uniform could go to church.
Q Well, I am not going to argue about it with you. Your answer is that you don't recall any frequent and strong criticism and objection from church men about this particular Sunday morning program. Is that the way you want to leave it?
A I do not want to say it like that. There were periods of great tension, periods of serious disputes, such as in youth organizations there is a storm, period, and later all these things were regulated. done with the young people of Germany during the years over which you had control of them, you certainly did not prepare them militarily in any sense, in any sense ordinarily accepted as being military; is that so?
Q Well, now, let's see. What was the name of your personal press agent, or consultant, if you prefer that term?
A For the longest period of time my press agent was a Mr. Kaufmann. interrogatory from him which will be submitted. I assume you know about that, don't you? answers which Kaufmann gave.
Q Well, you know the questions he asked, don't you?
A I don't remember them in detail. You asked him if he ever put out any press releases without your authority. You asked him if he wasn't your personal press consultant. And you asked him if it wasn't true that you personally gave him the directive for what you wanted published in the press, and particularly in the youth press. Do you remember those questions?
A (No response)
Q But you don't know the answers; is that it?
A (No response) September of 1942 an article about the young people and the youth of Germany?
Q Well, I think that you had better have a look at it. It is Document 3930-PS. That becomes USA 853.
THE PRESIDENT: What number did you say, US. -
MR. DODD: 853, sir. BY MR. DODD: teletype message, "Reich Governor in Vienna." You will see at the top it was received by you on the 10th of September 1942, and it sets out the subject for the body of this article for the editorial staff of the "Schwarzes Korps," That was the SS magazine. that a high ranking officer who had come back to Berlin from Sevastapol said that the youngsters who had been seen some four years ago in short pants marching through German cities singing, "Yes the flag is more than Death," were the 19-year-olds who took that city of Sevastopol. they promised in singing; and that the National Socialist Movement had brought up a young generation, filling them with faith and self-denial, and so on. Then the rest of it goes on in substance to say that there were people who objected to your program at the time that you were trying to make these youngsters stron something to do with making them the good 19-year-old fighters who took Sevasto pol; isn't that so? You are clamming credit, I say, in this article for having produced this kind of 19-year-old boys.
Q Well, you do now. You can talk about it, certainly.
A That is what I just wanted to do. Mr. Kaufmann at that time had just returned from the Eastern Front, and under the impression of that which he had experienced out there he wrote down what we road, in this article, which is quite impossible for me to read right now.
Q Well, it isn't very long. Really I read what I think are the most important parts of it insofar as you are concerned. in one single sentence in that entire article.
Q Oh, I know. I am simply asking if it isn't a fact that you were claiming credit in this article for having had something to do with the fact that these 19-year-old boys were such good fighters in Russia. That is all I am asking you. become good citizens, and that I wanted then to become good patriots. that they were such good fighters. Now, there is no trick in this question. It is merely preliminary, and I want to get on, but I think you might say yes. Incidentlly, this song, "The flag is more than death," was a song that you wrote, wasn't it?
A The "Flag Song of the Youth," which I wrote, had the text, "The flag is more than death." That is true. in the formative days before the war statrted in a song book.
AA great number of song books were published. I don't know all of them for youth -
Q No, I don't either, but I am asking if it isn't a fact that you did publish song books for young people. well as the press office, have published such books. Of course I did not look each individual song which was published there, but in these song books I beli on the whole only such songs were published which were sung by the youth.
Q All right. We have some extracts from one of your song books, and there is only one that I wish to refer to. Do you remember the one "Forward, Forward, Forward," that you wrote, by the way, another one that you wrote. Do you remember that song?
A "Forward, Forward, Forward," is the flag song of the youth.
Q You wrote it? words and phrases for young people with respect to their military duty?
A The flag song of the youth? I can't find that.
Q Well, words, like this; "We are the future soldiers. Everything which opposes us will fall before our fists. Fuehrer, we belong to you," and so on. Do you remember that?
A. I have not said "we are the future soldiers", such as I hear now in English, but "we are the soldiers of the future".
Q. All right.
A. "The soldiers of the future", "the bearers of the future".
Q. All right, but that is another one of your songs, isn't it?
A. That is a revolutionary song, which emanated from the fighting period; it is not concerned, perhaps with the war between Germany and other powers, but the struggle which we were fighting inside the country in order to carry throug our revolution.
Q. All right, we will see. Do you remember the one,"Can you see the Dawn in the East?" DO you remember that song?
A. That is not one of my songs.
Q. It is one of the songs in the Hitler Youth Song Book, is it not?
A. That is an old song of the SA from the years 1923-24.
Q. Well that may be. I am only asking you it it isn't a fact that it was in your official song book for your young people.
A. Yes
Q. It is in that song that you villify the Jews, is it not?
A That I do not remember any more. I would have to see the song.
A. Well, I can show it to you, but perhaps if you recall it we can save a little time. Don't you remember that the second stanza says, "For many years the people were enslaved and misguided, traitors and Jews had the upper hand."? Do you remember those words in that song? "People to arms" is the next one.
A. Yes, but I don't know any more whether that was published in a song book of the Youth -- meaning the Hitler Youth.
Q. I can assure you that it was, and if you would like to see it, we have it here.
A. I can assure you that it was, and if you would like to see it, we have it here.
A. It is a very well known song of the SA, which was sung by the youth, and therefore it is also in the song book of the youth.
Q. All right, that is all I wanted to find out. I don't care where it originated.