Whether Sandberger know Steimle's information before February or whether he got it through Schellenberg in London during that detention, that can only be ascertained by questioning this man Sandberger here, having him questioned through my Defense Counsel, and until then, I must contradict this statement altogether.
A Secondly. No, I have not finished for a long time. Secondly Sandberger states that he had heard from Steimle that this man Steimle had heard. Now, then, if such information were not creditable to me after it has come through three or four persons, then such a statement which has been made by Steimle here would be denied strictly by me. I had not the authority to make such decisions, nor did Steimle, Sandberger or Schellenberg at any time know the facts; namely, that only Himmler personally could have made such decisions as these. treatment of detainees and I intervened and stated amongst these so very persons -- and this, incidentally, is the case of Schuschnigg who was in such a camp which was threatened by the Russians. Anyway, on 1 February 1945, as I remember this date very well and it can be confirmed by another defendant here and my reply to this other defendant. He said, "Couldn't we do something for Schuschnigg so he won't fall into the hands of the Russians?" I replied, "Will you or shall I make that suggestion to the Fuehrer, to have him reloaded from detention or at least to take him somewhere where he won't fall into the hands of the Russians but fall into the hands of the Americans." Whereupon, one of us--I can not remember who but probably both, took this proposal to Hitler, and he agreed to it.
THE PRESIDENT: Surely you are going very far afield.
obvious, that this is hearsay evidence. The only question list of names to you, and we understand that you say he did not.
We do not want to hear argument about it. me, but I must define my attitude to this document which has just been shown to me for the first time. I do not want to appear to the Tribunal that I can only makes a statement and defend myself after I have been in close consultation with my lawyer for hours. I want to tell the prosecutor at once that this is not true. My credibility is at stake, and in some form I must answer at once on the spot. I cannot make it easier for the Prosecutor by saying that I cannot answer to a matter after he was made himself familiar with a matter for hours. I must be able to tell the Tribunal why those things are untrue. "bullet" orders that were directed to the Mauthausen concentration camp? Yes or No?
A I have made a detailed statement on this Kugelorder", and I have stated that I did not know that order
Q Did you ever issue any orders supplementing the so-called "Bullet" order, you yourself: Did you ever issue any such?
COLONEL AMEN: I ask to have the defendant shown document 3844-PS, which will become USA Exhibit 801.
Q Were you acquainted with Josef Niedermayer, defendant? Josef Niedermayer?
A No. I do not recollect having known that name at that time or knowing it now.
Q Well, perhaps this will bring it back to you. Paragraph One:
"From the fall of 1942 until May 1945 the so-called cell-barracks of the Mauthausen Concentration Camp were under my supervision.
"2. During the beginning of December 1944 the so-called 'bullet' orders were shown to me in the political department of the Mauthausen Concentration Camp. Those were two orders each of which bore the signature of Kaltenbrunner. I sawboth of these signatures myself. One of these orders stated that foreign civilian workers who had repeatedly escaped from work camps were to be sent to the Mauthausen Concentration Camp under the 'bullet' action in case of recapture.
"The second order stated that the same procedure was to be followed with officers and non-commissioned officers who were prisoners of war with the exception of British and Americans if they repeatedly escaped from prisoner of war camps. These prisoners of war were also to be brought to the Mauthausen Concentration Camp.
"3. On the basis of this 'bullet' order and the oral instructions of Kaltenbrunner which went with it, 1,300 foreign civilian workers, officers and non-commissioned officers were brought to the Mauhausen Concentration Camp. There they were lodged in block number 20, and fed badly according to orders that they had to starve. Eight hundred of them died from hunger and illness. The bad food and the lack of medical care resulted from the personal oral orders of Kaltenbrunner."
Is that statement true or false, defendant?
A That is not correct, Mr. Prosecutor. Here once again, I believe that I can deprive this document of its value. May I draw your attention to Page Two. On Page 2, paragraph three, it says in the third line, it says "1,300 foreign civilian workers, officers and non-commissioned officers were brought--". From that word "Civilian workers"-to do with the fact that the person who makes the affidavit saw to "Bullet orders bearing your signature. Is that, so far as you know, true or false?
A No; I said yesterday, and I repeat it today for the second time, Mr. Prosecutor, that these Kugel orders were not known to me. However, so as to come to the credibility of the witness and the value of the document, I must be able to raise my arguments in connection with those points which are particularly obvious and where the prosecution is wrong. That is, in the third line of paragraph 3, where the witness--who has a completely different signature than that of the person who has written the rest of the statement, which is a fact which I would like to draw to the attention of the Tribunal--the witness completely forgot that the Bullet Order, which has been read, out here, repeatedly referred to officers and non-commissioned officers, but not to civilian workers. How can he use a wrongfully quoted order when he makes a statement? I can't apply a civilian paragraph, which is 820, RGB, to justify the death sentence for murder; nor can I, on the strength of the Order Bullet, lock civilian workers into a camp. The witness, in his haste and anxiety to oblige, had forgotten these details.
I don't believe, therefore,that this man has ever seen a document which bears my signature, and such a document has never been read out to me either, or put before me. sure there will be some more referring to the same problems--that this and all these other witnesses should be brought, here and be questioned upon the matter as to just how their statements came about. with respect to your participation in the forced labor program on the defenses below Vienna?
A I had not quite finished answering your, last question; I still have to say something vital about this matter. important.
said about the Kugel Order yesterday, or the Bullet Order. I have stated that in December or January 1944, or 1945, that became known to me, what my reaction was, and how I turned against it. That fact too is an explanation for the fact that I couldn't, shortly before that, have signed that myself. the Decree Kugel, which the prosecution is certain was signed in 1941 by Hitler. For that reason, too, I just wanted to make that final remark about that document. I missed? respect to your participation in the forced labor program on the defenses below Vienna. Are you familiar with what he said in this court?
Q Well, I will read it to you. It is very short.
"Answer: In October-November 1944, about 30,000--perhaps a few thousand more--were taken out and brought to Germany. They were to be used for defensive work in Vienna and to work on these fortifications. Mostly women were involved. A small part of these people were put into the work camps on the Lower Danube, and they died through exhaustion. A smaller percentage, perhaps 12,000, were taken to Vienna, the boundary part to the West, and about 3,000 were taken to Bergen and Belsen and then into Switzerland. Those were Jews that had come from Germany." Buergermeister of the City of Vienna with respect to the assignment of this forced labor in the City of Vienna? Budapest, and I should very much like to ask you to show me any such letter.
Q I didn't say Budapest, I said the Buergermeister of the City of Vienna,or I intended to, if I did not.
A The Mayor of Vienna? I can't remember having had any correspondence with him either. I think perhaps I can explain the matter to you by saying that these fortification works with which we must be concerned, apparently, did not come under the City of Vienna, but the district of the Lower Daube. I did not know Vienna had a joint frontier with Hungary, you know. with participating in this forced labor program; is that not correct?
COLONEL AMEN: I ask you to have the defendant shown document 3803-PS USA Exhibit 802 (The document was submitted to the witness).Q(continuing) I call your attention to the first three paragraphs.
You will note that the letter comes from yourself, and reads as follows:
"To: Buergermeister of the City of Vienna, SS Brigadefuehrer Blaschke, Vienna.
"Subject: Assignment of Labor Force to War Essential Work in the City of Vienna.
"Re: Your letter of 7 June 1944.
"Dear Blaschke:
"For the special reasons cited by you I have in the meantime given orders to ship several evacuation transports to Vienna-Strasshof. SS Brigad Dr. Dellbruegge had, as a matter of fact, already written to me concerning th same matter.
"At the present four shipments with approximately 12,000 Jews are pending. They should reach Vienna within the next few days.
"According to previous expedience it is estimated that 30 percent of the transport will consist of Jews able to work -- approximately 3,600 in this case -- who can be utilized for the work in question, whereby it shall be understood that they are subject to be removed at any time. It is obvious that only a well guarded, enclosed place of work and a secured camp-like billeting arrangement can be utilized, and this is an absolute prerequisite for making these Jews available.
"Women unable to work and children of these Jews who all are kept in readiness for special action, and therefore one day will be removed again, have to say in the guarded camp also during the day.
"Please discuss further details with the State Police Headquarters in Vienna, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ebner and SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Krumey from the Special Action Command Hungary, who, at the present, happens to be in Vienna.
"I hope that these transports will be of help to you in carrying out these urgent work details of yours.
"Heil Hitler!
"Yours Kaltenbrunner."
Now, do you recall that communication?
Q Do you deny having written that letter? to the original of this letter. Do you have the original?
Q Is that not your signature?
A No, that is not my signature. There is a signature made either in ink or is a facsimile, but it is not mine. gave in the course of your interrogations, and I ask you to tell me whether or not these are your signatures. right. The one in pencil, the document signed in pencil, has been signed by me. look at the signatures which you admit are your own, and compare them with the signature on this document 3803-PS, USA Exhibit 802? pencil are mine; they are my own.
Q All of them?
(The documents were submitted to the Tribunal)
COLONEL AMEN: Shall I continue, your Lordship?
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, please. BY COLONEL AMEN: ment of the Warsaw Ghetto and the clearing of the Ghetto.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you passing from this document?
COLONEL AMEN: Yes, Your Honor.
THE TRIBUNAL: We had better adjourn for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken)
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I would like to begin. I do not know whether Document Book 1 was given me. Will you please also tell me what day and at what time your decision will be made known on that.
(A short pause.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the Tribunal thinks that, subject to anything you have to say, half-past twelve tomorrow -- that is Saturday morning -- would be a good time at which we could decide the admissibility of your documents.
DR. THOMA: Thank you very much indeed.
COLONEL AMEN: If the Tribunal please, I want to revert for a moment to Document 3803-PS, with the signature. BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q Defendant, do you have the original of that exhibit before you? appearing in handwriting, just above the signature, the letters, "D-E-I-N"?
Q And as I understand it, that word means "yours"; in other words, it is an intimate expression used only between close personal friends, is that not correct? cither "Ihr," "I-H-R," or "Dein," "D-E-I-N." We use the latter, "Dein," if we are on close terms, friendly terms. I am a friend of Blaschke, the Mayer of Vienna. that a stamp or facsimile would be made up which contained not only a signature but the expression, "Dein," above the signature?
A That would be nonsensical; I agree with that, without reservation, but I did not say that it must be a facsimile signature. I just said that it is not my signature. It is either a facsimile or put down by another hand, the author of this letter -- I couldn't finish before -- as seen from the code in the upper left-hand corner, in Abteilung IV-a and -b, he is to be found in that office and every one in the departments and entire German Reich knew that the Mayor of Vienna, Blaschke, and myself, on the basis of our common activity in Vienna, that is for about ten years, had been on a friendly basis and had used the familiar form of address, "Du." Then, when I was absent from Berlin, and the letter, was urgent, and I assumed such to be the case from the contents, in that case the official would be considered it justified to write this document.
I did not authorize him and it would be an impossibility for him to do that, but that is the way I must picture the events that have taken place. signature, is that correct?
A It would to most unusual to have a stamp made with the word, "Dein." It would be entirely impossible. Therefore the official himself must have put or fixed the signature.
That I was on familiar terms with Blaschke, everyone knew, and therefore the word, "Dein", had to be used, if he used my signature at all.
Please look at the figure 30 also. From samples of my writing you can see that I do not write like that at all. official -- as you term him -- in signing such a letter on your behalf would try to imitate your signature?
A Not that, but, Mr. Prosecutor, it would be a matter of course as far as the Lord Mayor of Vienna is concerned, and a man of whom the official knew that I was on familiar terms, to put a signature -- a typewritten signature -- under a personal letter. That would be equally impossible. When I was not in Berlin he had two possibilities, either to typewrite or to act an though Kaltenbrunner had been actually there. letter, in the same way that you are lying to this Tribunal about almost everything else you have given testimony about? Isn't that a fact?
A Mr. Prosecutor, these insults which you are tossing at me, I am used to these insults, since for one year I have been interrogated hundreds of times. I have been insulted much worse. My mother, who died in the year 1943, was called a where, and other accusations were hurled at me. This term is not knew to me, but I would like to state that in a matter of this kind I certainly will not tell an untruth, because I want credibility before this Tribunal. contrary to that of twenty or thirty other witnesses and far more documents, It is almost incredible that you should be telling the truth and that every witness and every document should be false. Don't you agree to that proposition?
A No. I cannot say that. Up to now I have always had the feeling that every document which you submitted to me today, at first glance, could be refuted by me immediately in its most vital points and I ask and I hope to be successful with the Tribunal, that I may refer to single points and I may be confronted with individual witnesses, so I may fight.
In your preliminary interrogations your collaborator has in my opinion, had the wrong impression of me, it is completely wrong that he believes I was refuting and fighting insignificant things, but the concept of this proceeding was unknown to me, but I believe if he talked about more important matters then more important matters would have been established and I am perhaps the only defendant who immediately stated, when he received the indictment, when I was asked "are you ready to make further statements to the prosecution?!! I said "immediately", and with my own signature, which you may produce, and I, as such, was at your disposal immediately in every way and at anytime. Is it not so? Please confirm that? I have asserted that up until today -an additional five months -- I was always ready to answer every question put was not asked.
THE PRESIDENT: Restrain yourself. And when you see the light, speak slower. You know about the light, don't you? BY COLONEL AMEN: interrogation, you stated that you did not wish to be interrogated any more because the questions seemed to be designed to help the prosecution rather than to help your case and that you were told that in that event, you were not being questioned any more; that you were also informed that there were other documents and other material with which you had not been confronted and that if you desired at any time to come back and be interrogated with respect to those matters, you should tell your lawyers so and send a note and that the interrogator would be very happy to continue interrogating you? Is that not a fact, yes or no?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, it did not happen that way, but I repeatedly stated on that thing, and it was early in the evening, I believe about eight, and I can describe the room upstairs. I was led out of the room. The interpreter which I saw here this morning wasthere and several other officials were in the room.
They asked if I received the indictment today and I said "yes, I have". They said, "Did you take notice of it?"
and they said, "From now on, you will have to speak with the General Secretary about your defense. Do you wish to be interrogated further?", at which I said, "yes, I am always at your disposal, at any time." but this officer here looked at me rather dismayed; for he did not expect that statement on my part; obviously all others seemed to have said, "no, we are glad that these interrogations are at an end and now we can work on our defense."
Q Now, defendant, I want to read to you from your last interrogation; after a question as to whether the testimony is being helpful to you sufficiently so that you want to continue, you spoke as follows:
"This would at least be as important for my defense as that term which is helping the prosecutors case and by which the interrogator has asked me repeatedly; therefore, I have the feeling that I am still in the hands of the prosecutor and not in the hands of a judge in charge of a preliminary hearing and as the indictment has been served, I find myself now in the state of preparation for my defense and I do not find it appropriate that you continue to look formaterial which would incriminate me. Please do not regard this as any criticism or rebuttal because I have never been informed about the procedure to be fell wed in these hearings and I do not know them but according to my knowledge of lawful procedure, this state of affairs is incorrect. I never had the possibility of confronting other witnesses and of reminding them that this and that happened differently and so forth.
"Q Is your statement made in the form of an objection to further questioning?
"A In that sense, as I stated it right now, if there is a possibility to be confronted with witnesses and do some thing about testimony in my favor, I would be very glad to continue but even there I have the feeling that it would be better to do this during the evidence at the trial itself. I believe I should discuss this first with my defense attorney.
"Q Well, if there is any question in your mind about whether you should go further in any interrogayion by the Office of Chief of Counsel, or the U. S. representative to the International Military Tribunal, I think you should talk to your counsel, too.
You have never been under any compulsion to answer either before or since this indictment was served.
I think you will agree your treatment has been fair in all circumstances, "A Yes," and so on.
Is that not correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, that is just the kind of information that I have been telling you; the material that you justread says that I had not agreed with the stopping of the interrogations, that I said that I had never had any opportunity to be confronted with the witnesses on what I was charged with. It was a confirmation that I asked you to put the witnesses before me so that I might talk with them and I also said that I was glad. Now, I may start with the beginning of my defense. I do not deny that but I wish to deny that because actually that is so, but in this statement which wasnot read to me, I wasnever aware of the meaning. I never said that I would never be at your disposal. I always said that I would be at your disposal, and that I would be at your disposal and I have always said that.
Q Defendant, let us get to the Warsaw Ghetto. Do you recall from the evidence before this Tribunal, that some 400,000 Jews were first put into the Ghetto and then in the final action, SS troops cleared out about 66,000 of which more than 14,000 were killed. Do you recall that evidence? already stated. murdered at the extermination plant at Treblinka? Did you know that? nothing as usual?
Q I ask to have the defendant shown document No. 3840-PS, which will become US Exhibit 803. Were you acquainted with Karl Kaleske? adjutant of General Stroop?
A I do not know the adjutant of General Strupp; the name which you just mentioned to me, "Kaleske," that I do not knew either.
Q Let us get to his affidavit. Do you have it before you now?
Q "My name is Karl KALESKE. I was Adjutant to Doctor von SAMMERNFRANKENEGG from November 1942 until April 1943, while he was SS and Polizeifuehrer of Warsaw. I then was Adjutant to SS and Polizeifuehrer STROOP until August 1943. The action against the Warsaw Ghetto was planned while von SAMMERN-FRANKENEGG was SS and Polizeifuehrer. General STROOP took over the command on the day of the commencement of the action. The function of the Security Police during the action against the Warsaw Ghetto was to accompany the SS troops. A certain number of SS troops were assigned the task to clear a certain street. With every SS group there were from four to six Security policemen, because they know the Ghetto very well. These Security policemen were under Doctor HAHN, Commander of the Security Police for Warsaw. HAHN received his orders not from the SS and Polizeifuehrer of Warsaw, but directly from KALTENBRUNNER in Berlin. This pertains not only to the Ghetto action but to all matters.
Frequently Doctor HAHN came to our office and told the SS and Polizeifuehrer that he had received such and such an order from KALTENBRUNNER about the contents of which he wanted to inform the SS and Polizeifuehrer. He would not do this with every order, but only with certain ones.
"I remember the case of three hundred foreign Jews who had been collected in the Polski Hotel by the Security Police. At the end of the Ghetto action KALTENBRUNNER ordered the Security Police to transport these people away.
"During my time in Warsaw the Security police had been in charge of matter concerning the underground. The Security Police handled these matters independently of the SS and Polizeifuehrer, and received its orders from KALTENBRUNNER in Berlin. When the leader of the underground in Warsaw was captured, in June or July 1943, he was flown directly to KALTENBRUNNER in Berlin."
Are those statements true or false, defendant? been read to you today? Is that correct?
A The statement is not correct. It is not true and can be refuted. you today, is that not so?
A Mr. Prosecutor -
Q Is that so?
A I must say yes. If you give me wrong accusations I have to declare them wrong. I cannot because the Prosecution is wrong in this case say yes to everything of which you accuse me. problems of subordination of all higher police leaders and SS leaders concerning occupied territories. All of them were directly responsible to Himmler. The SS and police leaders were subordinate to him and under its exclusive command jurisdiction the Order Police and Security Police and the entire instrument, the entire system which was active in the occupied territories was excluded from the command jurisdiction of the Reich Central Office. have said. Bach-Zelewiski who was questioned was only in occupied territories and knowns conditions there. There is also the defendant Frank who worked with the SS leader who later became Secretary of State.
Q Your lawyer can call these people. All I am asking you is whether or not this document is true or false and then asking you to make any brief pertinent explanation that you might wish to. these defendants in the box have knowledge about most of those affairs but that is not what I am asking you about. and you have said it is false. Now, is there anything else you feel you have to say about it?
Q Well, how about General Stroop? Did he know anything about it? yes. Troops were subordinate to the higher SS and police leader. Stroop had to execute -
THE PRESIDENT: The translation is not coming through to me.
A (continuing) Your Lordship, I beg your pardon.
Q Stroop was a pretty good friend of yours, was he not? the truth, would he not, about this Warsaw ghetto affair? to the higher SS and Police Leader and that he was not subordinate to me. I would be vary glad if he could confirm that immediately. From your words I must assume that the man is in custody here. from him on exactly these matters about which I have been questioning you.
COLONEL ALIEN: I ask to have the defendant shown document number 3841-PS, which will become U.S. Exhibit 804. BY COLONEL ALIEN: the Tribunal. You will accept what Stroop says, will you witness? you do not question but what he would tell the truth about the happenings in the Warsaw ghetto, isn't that what you have just said, in effect?
A The truth of a witness's testimony has been questioned before but I just said I do not know the document and therefore I cannot define my position as far as Stroop is concerned in this matter.
"My name is Juergen STROOP. I was SS and Polizeifuehrer of the District of WARSAW from the 17th or 18th of April, 1943, until the end of August, 1943. The action against the Warsaw Ghetto was planned by my predecessor, SS Oberfuehrer Doctor von SAMMERN-FRANKENEGG. On the day of the commencement of this action I took over the command and von SAMMERN-FRANKENEGG explained to me what was to be done. He had the order from HIMMLER before him, and in addition I received a teletype from HIMMLER which ordered me to clear the Warsaw Ghetto and raze it to the ground. To carry this out, I had two battalions of Waffen-SS, one hundred army men, units of Order Police, and seventy-five to a hundred Security Police people.
The Security Police had been active in the Warsaw; Ghetto for some time, and during this program it was their function to accompany SS units in groups of six or eight, as guides and experts in Ghetto matters. Obersturmbannfuehrer Doctor HAHN was commander of the Security Police of Warsaw at this time. HAHN gave the Security Police its orders concerning their tasks in this action. These orders were not given to HAHN by me, but came from Kaltenbrunner in BERLIN. As SS and Polizeifuehrer of Warsaw I gave no orders to the Security Police. All orders came to HAHN from Kaltenbrunner in BERLIN. For example, in June or July of the same year, I was together with HAHN in Kaltenbrunner's office and Kaltenbrunner told me that while HAHN and I must work together, all basic orders to the Security Police must come from him in BERLIN.
"After the people had been taken out of the Ghetto, numbering from fifty to sixty thousand, they were brought to the railroad station. The Security Police had absolute supervision of these people, and was in charge of the transport of these people to LUBLIN.
"Immediately after the Ghetto action had been completed, about three hundred foreign Jews had been collected at the Polski Hotel. These people had partly been here before the action, and partly brought here during the action. Kaltenbrunner ordered HAHN to transport those people away. HAHN himself told me that he had received this order from Kaltenbrunner.
"All executions (Interpreter's Note: Carrying out death sentences) were ordered by the Reich Main Security Office, Kaltenbrunner.
"I have read this statement over and I have understood it completely. I have made the statement freely and without compulsion. I swear before God that this is the full truth."