The beginning of my activity was February 1, 1943. On February 2 Stalingrad was surrendered and the largest military catastrophy -
THE PRESIDENT: This is a long speech in answer to a question as to whether he had seen this letter. He says he did not see the letter. Then he makes this long speech. BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q I am now putting this question to you. When did you realize what significance this Nacht und Nebel (Night and Fog) decree had and what it meant regarding the treatment of persons it affected? Please give a precise answer.
A Dr. Kauffmann, the existence of the decree was unknown to me. If I had known that this matter would be held against me here then I would have been able to nominate a witness from a prison inLondon who can prove that even then in London I had no idea that it existed. We have talked about that in the cell.
Q The end result, therefore, is that you did not know? prosecution as U.S.A. Exhibit 502.
(Witness handed document.) 1943. That report contains a sentence:
"Fuehrer order carried out by SD."
The signature on that document is lacking. It is dated May 10, 1943. It is a secret command matter and the heading is "Note."
Please, will you make a statement regarding that sentence: "Fuehrer order carried out by SD."
A The execution of such a Fuehrer order was unknown to me. I draw your attention to the fact that this note is obviously one made by a military department regarding an event which took place at a time after I had come into office but when I was not actually functioning in that office and I could not have had knowledge of it at all.
Q It says at the end of the document:
"Armed Forces report dated April 6, 1943."
It states further as follows:
"In northern Norway an enemy sabotage troopship was forced to fight when approaching the coast and was destroyed." you knew of it at all and did you know anything about its connections to the actual decree?
A No. Of course I received practically every army report but I would not say that any participation of any of my service departments can be gathered from this report.
defendant by the Prosecution, L-37, USA Exhibit 506. This is the so-called "responsibility of relatives", that is to say, it refers to crimes committed against relatives of the guilty persons and this document refers to a letter from the commander of the Security Police and SD at Radom, dated July 19, 1944, according to which male relatives of saboteurs are to be shot and the female relatives are to be sent to concentration camps. document and the whole matter?
A The report commences with the words:
"The higher SS and police leader East has --" and so on and so forth, and then -- "ordered" or "issued the following order." in an occupied territory which comes directly under the Reichsleader SS and not in any under any of the central departments of the RSHA so that I could not possibly have knowledge of that order. However, the police leaders in occupied territories were immediately subordinate to Himmler. concentration camp at Dachau. A document exists which has the number 3462-PS, USA 528. It is a statement by the chief of the State Building Department Gerdes. camp at Dachau and its two next camps at Muehldorf and Landsberg were to be removed by bombs or by the use of poison by order of the defendant. I shall read a few sentences from that document. They are on page two of the German text, near the end of the page.
"In December 1944 or January 1945 I was in the office of Gauleiter Giesler in Munich, Ludwig Street 28 and had the opportunity to learn about a secret order from Kaltenbrunner. Gauleiter Geisler received that order in my presence through a courier and after I had been given permission to read it it was destroyed in accordance with the remark on the document: 'To be destroyed after cognizance has been taken. The order which was signed by Kaltenbrunner was worded roughly as follows:
"'In agreement with the Reichsleader SS I have instructed all higher police departments that every German who participates in the future in persecution and destroying of enemy flyers will remain unpunished.'
"Giesler told me that he was in contact with Kaltenbrunner since he was considerably worried over the attitude of foreign workers and particularly the inmates of the concentration camps at Dachau, Muehldorf and Landsberg, which were in the path of the approaching allied armies.
"On a Tuesday in the middle of April, 1945, I had a call on the telephone from the Gauleiter ordering me to keep myself available for a night conference. In the course of our conversation that evening Gauleiter Giesler disclosed the fact to me that Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner had given him instructions, in accordance with an order from the Fuehrer, that there should be an immediate plan made regarding the liquidation of the concentration camp at Dachau and the two Jewish workers camps at Muehldorf and Landsberg. The instructions stated that these two Jewish workers camps at Landsberg and Muehldorf were to be destroyed by the German Air Force, since the sites of those two camps had lately and repeatedly been affected by hostile bombing attacks. The action was given the cmouflage name 'Cloud One'."
A May I talk about that?
Q Yes please, about that. Do you know Gerdes?
Q Do you know Giesler? concentration camps?
Q Will you give a reasonable explanation regarding this document?
A To give a reasonable explanation for that document isn't humanly possible, since it is an invention from "A" to "Z" and a fake. I state that this is a complete and utter lie coming from Gerdes, and I can only draw your attention to the fact that there is material supporting my statement, which originates from the Higher SS and Police Leader in Bavaria, Count Eberstein, who considers Gerdes' statement as being completely incredible. I would like to refer to those accusations in detail as follows: a call from the Gauleiter to be available for a night conference. He disclosed that he had received an instruction from Kaltenbrunner, in accordance with an order of the Fuehrer, and then it goes on. tration camps and who had to give an order, and Hitler knew that best, He couldn't and wouldn't have given me such an order because, beginning with the 20th of March and until the 15th of April, and by order from Hitler personally, I was in Upper Austria; and, from the 19th of April until the 8th of May, when I was captured, I was at Bayreuth. During the few days when I was in Berlin I can state so accurately just where I have been and what I hav d one that the question of giving an order in this connection is out of the question. And answer it would have had to happen earlier, if the witness is talking about the middle of April, which would mean that I would have had to talk to Hitler about this earlier than the middle of April, since otherwise, he fouldn't have been asked to hold a night conference before the middle of April. was completely unknown to me. And I am asking you to recognize it as crazy that in April of 1945, I could have helped such orders along, when in March, 1945, I was having discussions with the President of the Red Cross, Burckhardt, regarding the surrender and help to be given to all Jews; when I discussed with him his personal action on behalf of Jews, and when I achieved that purpose, this respect?
such an order would have had to go through the Chief of the Air Force and he, of course, would have turned me down because you must realize that at this point, when everyone knew that the war had come to an end, the Air Force wouldn't have lent its hand to a terrible crime. a terrible accusation, I'm quoting a few sentences from this document, because the Prosecution, too, has read these sentences into the record. The document goes on to say:
"I was aware that I would never carry this order out." This is Gerdes talking. "Since the action 'Cloud A-1' had long since been carried out and couriers from Kaltenbrunner kept arriving, I was supposed to discuss details regarding this action. I was supposed to have discussed them with the Kreisleiter concerned. The couriers which in most cases were SS officers, mostly SS Untersturmfuehrers, used to give me brief and sharp orders for me to read and showed me messages and threatened me with severe punishment, including execution, in case of disobedience. I could always excuse the failure to carry out the plan with bad flying weather or with lack of patrol or lack of bombs.
"Consequently, Kaltenbrunner ordered that the Jews should be marched from Landsberg to Dachau, so that they should be included in the extermination action which was going on at Dachau, whereas the action at Muehldorf was to be carried out by the Gestapo. The orders for the concentration camp at Dachau, which Kaltenbrunner gave, were given the name 'Cloud Fire.' The inmates of the concentration camps at Dachau, with the exception of the Aryan members of the western powers, were to be liquidated with poison. Gauleiter Giesler received that order directly from Kaltenbrunner and in my presence he discussed them with the Health Officer, Dr. Harfeld, and talked about the finding of the necessary amount of poison. Dr. Harfeld promised that the necessary amount, in accordance with the order, would be obtained, and he received instructions to wait for my further orders.
"Since I wished to prevent this action from being carried out at all events, I gave no further instructions to Dr. Harfeld. The inmates of the camp at Landsberg had hardly arrived at Dachau when a courier from Kaltenbrunner ordered the beginning of the action which was called 'Cloud Fire'. The execution of the two actions were prevented by me in that manner and I stated to Giesler that the front line was too near and that the execution was to be left to Kaltenbrunner.
"Kaltenbrunner gave written instructions to Dachau that all detainees who were members of the Western European Powers were to be loaded on to lorries and transported to Switzerland, whereas the remaining inmates were to be marched afoot into the Tyrol, where the final liquidation of the detainees would be carried out with due speed." whether this document is the truth or whether it isn't.
A This document is utterly and completely untrue. But, Doctor, I must have an opportunity to define my views. I must be given an opportunity to clarify the case.
Q You have already defined the attitude. If, over and above that, you have to say anything important, then you can state it now
A This appears to be important to me. According to his statement, I must have had dozens of couriers during my stay in Austria. The persons with me consisted of two men, my driver and my administrative adjutant, his name was Scheitler, and I must say that there were three of us. I wouldn't have had any possibility to dispatch all these couriers at that time. As far as Bavaria was concerned, I had no cause whatever to give any instructions, not even on Himmler's behalf. Why?
Because, as far as Bavaria is concerned, plenipotentiary powers were given to Obergruppenfuehrer Berger. The same day I was given my plenipotentiary powers for Austria. So that there was no reason for me to take this action. And, certainly, such insane orders concerning the concentration camp couldn't even be contained in my heart. some one else, and I'm thinking of Mathausen, where the order I had given was that the camp was to be handed to the enemy undamaged and in good order, and, if you want to put yourself into Himmler's place, then it would have been completely wrong, since the real crimes were in Mathausen, whereas the people in Dachau were not so badly implicated. So that, even if you could join Himmler's thought that the exact opposite would have been necessary, from that point of view, too, it is completely insane to accuse me of any such action. you, as the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, were responsible for the persecution of the church, particularly the Catholic Church, and that you had tolerated it. I am telling you in this connection that Department B-2 of Amt-IV was occupying itself with politically Catholic questions. Do you know anything regarding the fact that within that department there was a two-fold policy regarding the churches which had a so-called "nearer" and "farther" aim. The conception of the nearer aim was that the churches could not get back a single inch of ground,; and from the further aim on understood that finally, at the end of the war, the churches in G ermany were to be destroyed. What do you know about these tendencies? you've just made weren't known to me at all. The church policy of the Reich, as I recognized it in '43, was different. In 1943, Hitler's views were decisive, and there was a sort of temporary peace regarding the fight against the churches, for the duration of the war at any rate. So that, in other words, wherever possible, any attacks should be refrained from and only if any individual personal instructions would arise and would come from members of the church, they would be proceeded against.
of '43-success? affairs which I found. I also found that, in spite of Hitler's attitude Bormann was continuing to fight against the churches actively. So that, as early as March, I wrote to Hitler, and later on verbally addressed him on the same question, and asked him to clarify the policy for the churches and asked him to alter it. But in the main, I wanted a different type of policy for the Vatican.
Q I don't think there is my need for you to go into too much detail. turned against me; and, secondly, I found the strongest resistance on Bormann's part, who even wont as far as telling the German Ambassador to the Vatican, Weizaecker--rather, he undermined his reputation by sending a stooge, who had to guard him.
Q That's enough about that one.
DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, do you want me to go on because it is now five.
THE PRESIDENT: If you can finish in a short time, we would like you to go on. How long are you going to be?
DR. KAUFFMANN: I would say it would take me about another hour, since I must discuss those documents which have been submitted by the Prosecution, THE PRESIDENT:
Before we adjourn, I will say the Tribunal will sit on Saturday in open session until one o'clock.
(Whereupon the hearing o f the Tribunal adjourned to reconvene at 1000 hours on 12 April 1946
DR. KAUFFMANN: (Counsel for defendant Kaltenbrunner): Mr. President, the case of Sagan has been mentioned, but regarding his own participation the defendant has said only a few sentences. The Prosecution are assuming that he was an immediate participant even before the fliers had been shot. The two witnesses, Westhoff and Widen, in my opinion, produced evidence for the defendant, and I am now asking the Tribunal to tell me whether the defendant may have permission to speak in detail regarding the manner in which he was actively concerned in the affair, or whether the Tribunal is satisfied with the treatment he has given this problem.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that if the defendant has knowledge of the facts connected with it, he had better give them. He needn't give them in any greater detail than is necessary, but in view of the evidence of the witness Wielen, I think he ought to deal with it. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: first time after the event had taken place. Do you maintain that position? what did you do about it? the event, I received knowledge of it. At the time these fliers escaped and at the time the orders were given--which in my opinion, were given by Hitler to Himmler to Mueller to Nebe, or possibly from Himmler to Fegelein and Nebe-at the time I was not present in Berlin but was in Hungary and, with a number of stops, finally finished up in a visit to Minister Speer. On the second or third of April I returned to Berlin, and up to that time, no one had reported the case to me or informed me of it.
The first time I heard of the affair was when the Foreign Office made representations, or rather, demanded from Nebe and Mueller that the case should be clarified so that they could prepare a note, and I have already said that in this connection, the Foreign Office was informed by the Protecting Power.
General Westhoff's description, in my opinion, is misleading. I think he said that approximately four weeks after the shooting, during a conversation with me he mentioned Sagan. I think that it was at least six weeks afterwards. It should be possible to ascertain when the Foreign Office made that inquiry. Then it would be possible to ascertain the date. as a camouflage for this matter and what was thought of? said that they would have to reply to the Foreign Office's inquiry and in that connection informed me of that dreadful order for the first time, I asked them who had given that order, and they replied Himmler. I told than that we ought to get in touch with that man immediately and ask him how the case should be dealt with further. I myself refused to have any connection with what matter. It had been unknown to me up until that time, and I did not want anything to do with in. the fliers had lost their lives through bombs or that they had been shot whilst trying to escape? What do you know in that respect? The witness Schellenberg has stated that there were such conversations.
A Such words may have been said, yes. It has been described here how the large scale searches were handled, and in connection with these manhunts, there were shootings. Even Germans were shot in that connection. An SS Oberfuehrer in the Alsatian territory was shot on the occasion when he passed a road block which had been erected and refused to stop and there were other such cases, and in fact I was told that two or three of the fliers were actually killed by bombs. I think that was in the town of Kiel or Stettin, and I understand that two Criminal Police officials also lost their lives. That is something that ought to be ascertainable, and in this connection losses through bombing were mentioned, but a camouflage of the whole affair was not discussed in our office.
What we did discuss, what was done, was that on answer was prepared in Himmler's headquarters. The two of them received this inquiry from the Foreign Office and left for Himmler's headquarters.
whilst escaping, that that did not originate from you?
A No, certainly not; it did not originate from me.
prosecution is accusing you of the following: So-called bible scientists, or Jehovah's Witnesses, had often been sentenced to tions, refused to serve in the war.
My question to you is this:
participate in that question?
against these Jehovah's Witnesses. That is, under the law any pronounce the death sentence as to these Jehovah's witnesses.
a strong belief, such as members of Jehovah's Witnesses, was often As a result, two things were done immediately.
On the occasion of Bormann's office, and Hitler, whom he evidently did not see, a directive was issued to the public prosecutor's office stating tions to no longer pronounce the death sentence.
The third step was that Jehovah's Witnesses were no longer brought before the court. ing this to Thierack--which later had been discussed with Hitler--that this type of handling of the law was completely done away with.
A May I supplement my statement by saying this? This event, or this alteration of German law, became known abroad at that time. I remember quite well, for instance, that a very well known Swedish medical officer thanked me personally and stated that this deed had been well received in Sweden.
THE PRESIDENT: This really is an unnecessary detail about what happened with some Swedish person outside of Germany, as to what they thought of his actions.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: This is a directive from the Chief of the Security Police, dated 17 December, 1942. It is a secret letter, and it is addressed to all commanders of the Security Police and SD; and it goes, for information, to the Higher SS and Police Leaders and the Inspectors of Concentration Camps. It refers to a directive according to which at least 35,000 persons capable of work, by January of 1943, would have to be transferred to concentration camps. The letter is signed by Mueller. of any such affair at all?
THE PRESIDENT: Will you g ive us the number again?
DR. KAUFMANN: It is 1063-D, USA Exhibit 219. BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q Yes? written before I came into office, and it was net made known to me afterwards either. The signature is Mueller's, and he signed "by order of Himmler", as is shown from line 2. It is a typical case, which proves how unlimited Mueller's authority was, if he could issue such a decree as this. date at the end of January 1943--that this affair had not been reported to me or brought to my notice. matter: There was an agreement between the former Minister of Justice Thierack, and Himmler, dated September 13, 1942, according to which Jews Poles, and so forth, were to be subjected to penal police proceedings instead of being dealt with by ordinary law courts. attempt did you make so as to reinstate ordinary law proceedings so far as that was possible? to me. As you said it was made in the autumn of 1942. But repeatedly again and again. I worked and submitted proposals that all police courts should be dropped and proper law proceedings should be instituted. For that reason I was mere respected by the courts themselves than Himmler. This was one of the main reasons why we never understood each other, and it was one of the main reasons for differences which cropped up even during our first discussions in 1942.
I can't understand Thierack's actions either, that he did make such an agreement with Himmler, because later on, as I know myself, he repeatedly spoke against the police courts, or the police court system.
destruction of the Ghetto at Warsaw, which was carried out in 1943. A report is available on this from the SS and Police Leader in Warsaw, whose name was Strobe. The report is addressed to the G eneral of the Police Krueger, and refers to the so-called solution of the Jewish question in G alicia. problem in Galicia, and did you explore every possibility so as to prevent that solution from being possible? ment of power of Himmler's existed which led to the fact that Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories became his immediate subordinates, Higher SS and Police Leaders in this connection--for instance, like Krueger--were under the SS and Police Leader, in other words, Strobe, in this case. Therefore, regarding an action which went from Himmler to Krueger and Strobe, no department in the Reich had been informed or participated, neither before nor afterwards. Such an order was unknown in Berlin as well.
Afterwards--though I can't tell you how long afterwards-- a report regarding the Warsaw G hetto become known both in this country and abroad. It was written about, and accusations of the foreign countries reached us. taken to Himmler the first document which showed the reaction to his measures and policies, that I did that after reporting to the Fuehrer in November of 1943. In this connection I certainly talked to him about Warsaw too, that it was one of the things he and his "final solution" were being accused of.
Q I want to put a question here: When was the date of that report in comparison to that action against the Jews in Galicia?
A I can't remember when that action was. My reports to Hitler and Himmler were in November 1943. Prosecution--L-53, USA Exhibit 291. The Prosecution hold the Defendant, as chief of the security police and SD, responsible for the cleansing--as it is put-- of people at security police and SD camps and concentration camps. This document is a letter from the commander of the security police and SD at Radom, dated June 21, 1944, according to which the commander of the security police and SD in the Government General had ordered that all the prisons which are mentioned must be cleansed or cleaned out and that their inmates must be liquidated. Please, will you have a look at this document. Look at the sender, look at the signature, and make a statement, particularly regarding the question whether you knew of this.
A I draw your attention to what I have already said. This channel of command is out of the jurisdiction of the higher SS. The channel for orders--Himmler, Higher SS and police leader, and from him to his expert and from him to the commander of the security police-that channel hasnothing to do whatever with essential channels coming from Berlin. leaders were immediately subordinate to Himmler? possibilities of getting knowledge of orders and directives from such Higher SS and police leaders?
A It was out of the question. They were immediately subordinate to Himmler. There was one other channel which will be obvious and will arise when the Defendant Frank is questioned here. I have, of course, on the strength of my intelligence service heard repeatedly from abroad about such violations of the channels of orders. For instance, Krueger in the Government General was most violently attacked by me.
It was due to me too that Krueger was relieved from his position in Cracow and removed, which must obviously be contained in Frank's diary. The Prosecution are holding the Defendant as chief of the RSHA responsible that, under alteration of existing methods, slave laborers had been transferred to the armament industry. This document is a secret order, which once again is signed by Mueller. It is addressed to all police service departments. The date is June 18, 1941. The order refers to measures against the emigrants resident in the Russian theater of war, and it states that for the prevention of their return and for the prevention of any interference on their part the persons concerned may be arrested. Until further notice these people may not change their place of residence unless they have the permission of the security police, and leaving their place of work without permission would be punished with arrest.
Were these events known, to you?
A No. I can still only point out that this is an order from Mueller which appeared one and a half years before my appointment. In its immediate meaning, and because of his tremendous power and authority, he found that there was cause to do these things. exercise such tremendous power, and that even during your term of office-1943-44--this state of affairs continued without that you had the possibility to stop the man? I now ask you wasit principally known to you that Mueller had these powers, and will you tell the Tribunal in connection with this what the size of Department IV of the secret state police was and how it might be explained that you weren't informed about those hundreds or even thousandsof orders and instructions? When he was appointed I don't know, but I must assume that it must have been 1943, 1944, or 1945. But much earlier, as I know today, he had the closest contact with Himmler and later with Heydrich.
He originated from the Bavarian County Police, where he met Himmler. He had his personal confidence for at least twelve or fifteen years. He joined him in every action which Himmler carried out in pursuance of his aims as chief of the German police and helped him to carry them out. This confidence was continually increased for twelve or fifteen years and remained unshaken to the very last days of the war.
Mueller for instance had the order to remain with Himmler, and in fact he did. Himmler relied on him as his blind instrument and relied solely on him. These things by-passed me absolutely.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, the question that you have put to him, or the questions which you put--you put several--he doesn't seem to be answering. The main question was whether he knew of these actions of Mueller. He is giving us a long speech now abort how much confidence Himmler had in Mueller. He hasn't said anything else yet.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, I think that this question particularly ought to be dealt with at some length, because what the Gestapo and Mueller are being accused of is what Kaltenbrunner is accused of as chief of the organization,
THE PRESIDENT: What I was pointing out to you was that you had asked him several questions in one, and the main part of the question was whether he knew that Mueller had these powers and was exercising them. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: dential that there was no cause for him to give me any reports. I had no knowledge, and Himmler expressedly, as early as September 1942, stated that the chiefs of departments four one five were his immediate subordinates, as had been the case since Heydrich's death. based on such written statements and official proof it must be assumed that conferences of departments chiefs must have taken place between you and Mueller, and that it appears improbable that you weren't aware somewhat about the things which Mueller ordered. Isn't that accusation, at least to start with, based on fact?
A It appears to be, but isn't. What is called a conference of department chiefs here wan something which didn't happen every day but three or four times a week. It was a joint lunch of adjutants, department chiefs, or any guests who might have been in Berlin at the time, and as such that atmosphere made it impossible that internal or secret events could have been discussed in front of all these people.