A There might have been other reasons. I do not recall such a shooting. But I do not recall a single case like that.
THE PRESIDENT: We are getting two voices on the one line now. BY M. DEBENEST: who had been sentenced to death?
A I do not know. But I do not know whether anyone was shot at all. hostages arrested just the day before they were to be executed, and executed on the very next day?
A I am not informed on that point. I can see from this document that we are talking about hostages from Michelgestell. I do not recall that hostages were taken from this camp. But in this case, it would have been possible; but that was an actual hostage case.
Q No. I am not asking you whether hostages were taken from the camp of Michelgestell. I am asking you whether when the hostages of Rotterdam were executed they were not arrested on the eve before they were executed, and whether they were not shot the very next day.
Q I will give you the name. Maybe you will remember the case: Baron Schimmel-Pennig.
A Baron Schimmel-Pennig, as far as I recall, came from Seeland. But I do not know any more than that. why?
A No; I know only that the Baron Schimmel-Pennig was among these five hostages who were shot. which followed the summary justice courts in the Netherlands originated from you, did they not?
No. That is certainly not the case. For these shootings, from the middle of 1944 onward, cannot be traced to my directives and my summary justice courts, but rather to a direct decree of the Fuehrer.
as a result of your order of the 1st of May, 1943? which I had instituted, although in violation of these decrees, it is possible the Higher SS and Police Leader used these decrees as the basis for his *---*
Q But you are still contending that you had no power or *---* this chief of police?
A I did not have the power to command *---* but it is certain that we worked in a close relationship and close *---* to be taken?
A No. How do you mean that? In what way? announced by him, were they not announced with your full agreement? In many cases, I frequently did not know about these announcements until afterwards. There was no directive which I gave for these measures. I again and again refer to the fact that this was a carrying through of a Fuehrer decree to the police.
Q Very well. Did you believe in these measures of reprisal? Did you believe in them? committed by the resistance movement were concerned, steps had to be taken, and there was no other possibility for taking steps except the arrest by the police, by judgment on the part of the Higher SS Leaders, and shootings on the part of the police. I could not contradict these measures; I could not oppose them. You might interpret that as an agreement. I would have prefer it if they had given the correct and just judgment. I am submitting under No. RF 1529. This is a letter coming from you dated the 30th of November, 1942, and addressed to Dr. Lammers. I will pass over the first part.
M. DEBENEST: I am sorry. I forgot to tell the Tribunal that the originals are not here; they are just photostatic copies. But I heave in my possession an affidavit which I will submit to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: It is all right, M. Debenest. You need not bother to give us an affidavit. We have the photostatic copy.
will pass on to the 2nd paragraph. Second subject, "the confiscation of raw material took place in conformity with a letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS. I believe that I have conformed myself to all the wishes which are contained in it, only I did not like to point out, as President of the Tribunal that the appointment of the Supreme Head of the SS and of the Police would signify, from the point of view of the Dutch, a curtailment of the authority of the Reich Commissioner which would have a particular meaning because of the fact that the Reich Commissioner is appointed to guard the interests of the Reich, by order of the Fuehrer. But I have myself, transmitted to the SS Head and Police Fuehrer all four parts which an administrator needs. I believe that this National Law and Police must be a useful instrument and to a certain extent an example for all further regulations."
A.In this case, I had the authority over the Police Standgericht for a Military Tribunal, but not over the head of the Police. The heads of the Police were not under me. I could not give executive orders to the Police. Anyway, this military law existed for about two weeks.
Q.But what is nevertheless certain, that we here find special Tribunals and that you entrusted them to the head of the Police.
A.Yes, that is correct, but only in the case of Military Tribunals in the case of emergency, and what the police courts did at that time was taken over as my responsibility.
Q.Well, we quite agree then. You did entrust these emergency Tribunals to the Police.
Very well, I will now have you shown document 3430-PS. This document is the collection of all the speeches which you made duri the occupation of the Netherlands.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, is that the only reference you are making to this document No. 860.
M. DEBENEST: 860?
THE PRESIDENT: I ask you, is that the only reference you are going to make to this document?
M. DEBENEST: Yes, Mr. President, I am only concerned with second part. The first part concerns the Police.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't you think it is imposing a very heavy burden on the translation department. There are 18 pages of it.
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I quite agree with you. I just intended to use this document for the police organization, and I will then take the first part. But, I didn't think it was necessary to do so right now because I wished to economize the time.
THE PRESIDENT: I only mean this, if you are only going to use a small part of the document, it does not seem necessary to make the translation department, who have a very great deal of won to do, translate 18 pages of it.
Here's another one -- 803F, which has got many more than 18 pages in it, and of which very little use has been made. But go on.
M. DEBENEST: I know, Mr. President, but if I didn't use it more, it is only becuase the Tribunal considered that it dealt wit details which the Tribunal did not think necessary,
THE PRESIDENT: You have passages on each of these 18 pages.
M. DEBENEST: Certainly not, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on, anyway. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. Very well, we will now pass to another subject.
When you arrived in Holland, didn't that country posses extremely important stocks of food stuffs and of raw materials?
A. Yes, supplies were on hand.
Q. Were Important requisitions made during the first years of the occupation?
A. I did not quite follow that?
Q. Requisitions? important requisitions. Weren't they carried out during the first years of the occupation?
A. Yes, according to a decree given by the Four Year Plan, all supplies were requisitioned and they were to be stored for a perio of 6 months with the obligation on a part of the Reich, but all further needs were to be replaced and brought in.
Q. You therefore pretended that these stocks were to be reserve for the Dutch population?
A. Naturally.
A. Certainly? Very well. Will you take the document which I have shown to you this morning, 997-PS, Page 9 and 10.
A. Will you please give me the number of the document?
Q. 997-PS.
A. Do I have the document before me?
Q. Page 12 of the French text and page 11 of the German. You will read the following;
"The stocks of raw materials have been collected with the agreement of the General Fieldmarshal, and have been distributed in such manner that a quota sufficient for 6 months only will be left over for the Dutch people. This distribution is carried out in the same way as in the Reich. The same principles of equal treatment are also applied for the future supplies. Important stocks of raw materials have been guaranteed for the Reich, such as, for example, 70,000 tons of industrial fats which represent about one half of the quota which the Reich needs." for you. of the Dutch people and not for the Reich?
A No, there is a mistake. I said that the supplies were left for only 6 months duration, and that in the future, the further demands were to be supplied in the same way as in the Reich. But primarily these stocks were confiscated for the Reich.
Q Very well, the translation didn't come through. You received numerous complaints about these requests, didn't you?
Q And what measures did you take? Hirschfeld and the other secretaries, their attention was called to the fact that there was a strict directive emanating from the Four Year Plan. Perhaps in some cases of transmitting, the compliance to the Four Year Plan after taking away the stocks, seemed altogether oppressive to me. were carried out for the Reich?
A I don't understand you. What were you talking about?
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we adjourn now? Will you be much longer M.Debenest?
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, everything will depend upon the length of the answers which the Defendant will make, but I think that in 1/2 hour or 3/4 of an hour tomorrow morning I will be finished.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, then we will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1000 hours, 12 June 1946.)
MARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, the report is made that Defendants Hess and Jodl are absent. BY M. DEBENEST: Germany? to pillage that country economically, I would like to submit to you a document which indicates that you were not the only one to participate in this pillage and Goering and the OKW are mentionedthere, too. Document S 868, which becom 1530 PS. I concerns a teletyped message which is addressed to you by the OK and which is signed Reinecke. This teletype message is dated December 5, 194* and begins as follows: "Meeting at the office of the Marshal of the German Reich on October 7, 1940, concerning the modalities of the shipping or the taking of merchandise from Holland by members of the Wohrmacht or of the serve attached to it. In agreement with the Reichsmarshal and the Reich Commissar for the occupied Netherlands territories, the dispositions now in force, up to this day, regulating the shipment and the seizure of merchandise in Hollar are annulled. Members of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations attached to it." Then follows designations of these organizations as well as the authorities and members of services attached to it in Holland. "These can, within the cadre of the means at their disposal, be shipped home by the milit post, packages of a maximum weight of one kilo, and this without any limit on the number of parcels. So long as the parcels weigh more than 250 grams, the postage has to be paid for.
The taking with oneself of merchandise on the occasion of leave or crossing the frontier is not covered by any restriction." This regulation was drawn up with your help, wasn't it?
A When you say "agreement", that is putting it a little strongly. We are not concerned here with an authority for confiscation but rather a directive for transport. These things had to be bought. They could not have been confiscated. The Reichsmarshal decreed this and I put it into force. That was the so-called "Schlepperlass", meaning that any soldier which returned from the Netherlands could bring along as much as he could carry. He could carry these things along which he had bought. I gave this to the civilian authorities in accordance with this military decree. I believe this military decree was rescinded after two years, for it was also made known to me that I should rescind this order since it was favoring the black market.
Q I have not said that it concerned requisitions. Yesterday I said to you that there had been mass requisitions and you answered that this was exact. Today I state to you and I submit this document to you in order to demonstrate to you that there were also other means of pillaging the merchandi of the Netherlands.
Q I spoke yesterday of it quite simply. Will you state to me what the destination of the Beauftragte Fuer den vier jahres plan, the plenipotenti for the for year plan?
A I do not recall exactly the wording of this decree. However, I believe it has been read here. In any event, it dealt with the organizing of the entire economic means of a country in favor of the policy carried on by Germany, and in favor of the war economy, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, the translation came through to me that this document would become 1530-PS. I suppose that was a mistake. It must have been.
M. DEBENEST: Excuse me. I should have said 1530-RF. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q Who ordered the liquidation of property of the Freemasons?
A I must admit that I really don't know that. My attention was called to this case after this property had been confiscated, but I rather assumed that this emanated from Himmler and Heydrich.
Q Good. Well, I will refresh your memory. I will submit to you Document F-805, which becomes RF-1531. It concerns a letter which comes from you, doesn't it?
Q It is dated March 11, 1944. Isn't it signed by you?
Q Good. You express yourself as follows in this letter: "Very Honored Dr. Lammers:
"I have ordered the liquidation in the Netherlands of all the property of the Freemasons. Considering that the liquidation had been undertaken by that is to say, by an official office, and contrary to what has happened concerning the liquidation undertaken by other offices, it is to the Finance Minister of the Reich that there comes the power to decide on the thorough utilization of these properties and incomes.
"I have written a letter today to the Reich Finance minister, and I alle myself to enclose a copy of it for you. I beg you to second my request." taken since you yourself had undertaken it, isn't that true.
A I am still upholding my first claim. On the question as to who decreed this, I understood you to ask me who demanded this, who from the Reich For a fact, I did not hear about this pattern of circumstances until a few months after it had taken place.
Then, through my offices, I had this liquidation carried to an end and then wrote this letter. The actual carrying through of this measure rested with me.
Q Didn't you say just now -- and I understood the translation very clearly -- that you heard of it only after it had been done? You contradict your own declaration, as I was able to note yesterday,on several occasions, only when documents are submitted to you.
A I didn't quite understand you. Are you putting a question to me now I didn't get the question. undertaking?
A Yes, certainly. I should like to say this liquidation was started from another source. That is, the property was confiscated; then I took over this action and had it carried through through my competent agencies. this liquidation?
Q You discussed this beforehand?
A I wrote a letter as well. I believe there was an appendix to the Finance Minister which contained the proposal that this property be given to t Party. result of the railroad strike in September 1944? probability.
Q You asked the General Secretary to stop this strike?
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, the Tribunal would like to have further investigation as to who ordered the confiscation of the Freemasons' property.
Defendant, do you know who ordered the confiscation?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. The confiscation was ordered by Heydrich and was carried through by the police and led into the proper channels. The the Plenipotentiary started with the process of liquidation and at that stage of the game I took over and transmitted it to my agencies and offices.
BY M. DEBENEST:
Q At what date was this liquidation ordered?
A In the first few months. The whole thing went on very rapidly and quickly. It was only a matter of weeks. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Was any reason given for it?
A The Freemasons were declared to be enemies of the Reich. It was done according to the decree about the taking over of the fortunes of those who were inimical to the State.
Q Was the order of Heydrich in writing?
A That I can't say. This order went to the Security Police, and the Commander in Chief of the Security Police carried it through. I rather imagine it was a teletype message. I believe that this entire action had bee planned in advance. in writing about it at all? was in writing, but it might have been oral as well. I received word that this confiscation was being carried through on the order of the RSHA, and from then on I began my work.
Q What was the amount involved in the confiscation? over to the Party. Party.
Q And were they?
A No. I received no decision in this matter. This property must have been retained in the Netherlands in some way.
Q You were the Reich Commissar for the Netherlands, weren't you? What happened to the money?
were bought. It was treated as a special fund, and it wasn't used.
Q But this was all in 1940, wasn't it? on the money remained in this bank account.
Q What was the bank?
A That I can't tell you, Mr. President. But there is no doubt that the Dutch authorities can confirm this. meant in 1940, did you?
THE PRESIDENT: Go on, M. Debenest. BY M. DEBENEST: the utilization of the money from the liquidation of Jewish property? compiled in Jewish institutes. The funds were not confiscated, but certain expenditures were met from them. For instance, we erected the camp Vught, and the cost of erection of this camp was met that way. perhaps 400 million guilders or slightly more. However, they were not confiscated.
Q Actually, how were the funds used exactly? That is to say, was it for ends of the German government or for other ends?
A The Jewish property, first of all, was confiscated. Then, as far as possible, it was liquidated, and we called that Aryanization. The result of the Aryanization, these moneys, were taken -
Q (Interposing): Will you answer more directly and explain how this liquidation took place. Tell me about the utilization of the funds. should be on deposit in an institute for this purpose, some in basic notes an some in the original moneys. They should be there. Only relatively small parts were used for certain purposes. I believe the largest amount was 14 million guilders which was used for the erection of the camp of Vught.
Q Excuse me. I asked you a question. Were the funds from this liquidation used for ends of the Reich? Yes or no? Reich, but the funds were used for the purpose because Camp Vught was to be a Jewish collection camp.
Q. So you consider that the setting up of the Vught Camp was in the interest of the Netherlands ?
A. I can say that with certainty. The cost of the Camp Vught, as far as I was informed, was met from this property, I believe 14,000,000 gilders were involved. This camp was to be a Jewish collection center, but later Himmler transformed this into a concentration camp.
Q. That is just an opinion and the Tribunal will decide about it. But as for the property of the Free Masons, what was done with the monies which came from this liquidation,how was it utilized ? Did it go to the Reich, or did it go towards the furthering of the construction of concentration camps in the Netherlands ?
A. Neither the one or the other.
THE PRESIDENT: He said already, or I thought he said, that it was on deposit at some unknown bank, and that there was about 400,000,000 which came from the Jews.
WITNESS: Mr. President, I just recalled the name of the bank. It is in the Verwaltungs und Rentungs Anstalt in Belleck. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. Well, I am now going to submit to you a document, which is a letter, No. F-864, and is now RF-1532. This document states exactly the destination which you have been discussing concerning the goods which have thus been liquidated. First, you indicate, at the beginning of the letter, that the total resulting from the liqidation amounted, as you say, to 6,134,662 floring up to that date, and you indicate that this sum was placed in the Reichsstiftung for the Netherlands. This is an organization, a German organization, and not a Netherlands organization as far as I understands. You state, moreover, how different sums were to be distributed.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you tell me the details of where it is. He says it is there in the bank.
M. DEBENEST: Exactly, Mr. President. I would like only to read the few lines at the beginning where he states exactly the purposes of the final distribution of these monies. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. "I suppose that it was your intention that the results of the sale of the property of the Masonic organizations should be employed in the Netherlands themselves for certain specific ends And you had the same ends, moreover, for the fortunes of Jewish origination. In our discussion on this last point, an agreement was made between us concerning these fortunes." manner as the Jewish fortunes, wasn't it ?
A. You cannot say that at all. I didn't say that. The Reich Minister of Finance wanted to dispose of the Jewish fortune, and I called his attention to the fact that it had not been called i and I told him not to dispense with the drawing in of this money but to see what the course of events would be.
Q. Were you not proposing here, that they should be utilized to the same ends ?
A. I suggested to him to use these monies for certain purposes in the Netherlands, and not to take this money into the Reich, but to leave it in the Netherlands, but the use was left completely open. He himself wasn't to send it to the Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Debenest, I think you can pass on. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. I thought exactly that we could and that the Tribunal would appreciate it.
Let's come back to the matter of this railroad strike. Did you not ask the Secretary General to stop this Strike ?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Did you not set an embargo on most of the transports and operations ?
A. Certainly.
Q. Yes, it was you, wasn't it ?
A. Yes, I testified to that yesterday.
Q. Consequently, you know very well, that at that time what th situation was concerning the food in the Netherlands, and the con sequences which would inevitably result from the decision which you took would be of extreme gravity ?
A. Not in reality, for in reality, it had already been distributed by the Wehrmacht and I was concerned about finding a mode of defending, and since it seemed very urgent that the needs of the Wehrmacht be made known, to have traffic reinstated. If the railroad strike had not taken place, I would have succeeded with the Wehrmacht in not carrying this through. The shipping traffic would have been left undisturbed.
Q. But we are not discussing the Wehrmacht. You know very well that the moment you placed this embargo on shipping, you know perfectly well that it was the time when they were transporting food stuffs for the winter to the Netherlands from the West ?
A. Yes, but at the moment in which I decreed the embargo, then was actually no more traffic, and the few ships which brought in food were confiscated by the Wehrmacht complete with the food stuffs.
Q. Then your decision was completely useless ?
A. No, for through my decision, I prevailed upon the Wehrmacht that they restrict themselves to a shorter period of time, and they promised me that the ships which I wanted would be undisturbed by them.
Q. How long did this embargo last ?
A. I believe between the 15th and 20th of October. The chief of my traffic department had the order to rescind the order. In practice, it took weeks before the Dutch traffic organization broke down.
Q. Until what date, approximately ?
A. It might have lasted until the middle of November.
Q. Was not that the period in the course of which the heaviest traffic existed?
A. That's quite correct. In November and December, they could have brought so much food stuffs to Holland, and in September, I was of the same conviction that in November and December, the shipping facilities would be at my disposal.
Q. And actually, did you obtain it?
A. Unfortunately no. For the breaking down of the traffic and the authorities in connection with the other war measures was not at my disposal.
Q. You knew, however, quite clearly, that the decision which you were taking was heavy with consequences?
A. In September, this thing was not so serious, because with full consideration for the railroad strike, we needed these facilities, and as far as the Reich interests were concerned, there is to be no grave accusation against me by the German people to say that I did hot do everything possible for the furthering of this fight.
THE PRESIDENT: You dealt with the subject yesterday, didn' t you?
M. DEBENEST: I don't think I did,
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the embargo on shipping surely was gone into yesterday.
M. DEBENEST: Mr. President, I think I spoke yesterday only of the requisitions of the SS, and others, and I only asked a couple of questions of an economic nature and I do not believe I touched upon this subject. If I did, I apologize to the Tribunal. I am almost finished with it. BY M. DEBENEST:
Q. What was the position of the Netherlands Bank on your arrival in 1940?
A. The Netherlands bank and the Bank of Issue was, I believe formerly on the basis of a private bank. The President was Mr. Tripp, and the Directorate had a certain influence for it was a bank of issue.
