Q I don't know what the German word was but certainly for this one that is true, isn't it?
A I didn't consider myself as such. I got an order from Mr. Ohlen dorf.
I carried out this order but I never was the personal representa
Q Now, witness, I don't wish to argue with you but you remarked that execution as General Ohlendorf's representative.
Now my next question
A I am sorry, but I cannot agree with you. I am of a different opinion.
I was not the representative of Ohlendorf the way you under stand it.
I was sent out to carry an order and I did so and I cannot explain it any other way.
Furthermore, and I would like to mention That's why I got it and otherwise I wouldn't have gotten this order.
Q We will return to this question in a minute. Did you ever carry out any orders given to you by Seibert?
business of the group?
A I don't know what you mean - general business of the group. I can't quite comprehend it.
Do you mean the orderly room?
Q No. Did these orders ever affect these orders of Seibert ever affect the group as a whole?
A Certainly not the entire group. They could have only affected happened every day in the staff?
A I don't know any such orders.
Q Did any of Seibert's orders ever concern security questions?
office, or what?
Q I mean the security -- Well, either one. Answer them both. Did they ever concern security measures of the office?
A There were no such orders. I don't know of any such orders.
Einsatzgruppe D?
A I don't know of any such orders either.
Q Did they ever concern security questions of the group staff?
A I think that question was put once before. I cannot imagine anything by this and I don't know any such orders.
I don't know
Q The answer then is you don't know of any such orders. Did they ever concern executive measures to be taken?
different times?
Q All right. Now then let's turn to Document Book I, page 108 in the English text, 141 in the German text.
It is your affidavit again, Document NO-3055 and is Prosecution Exhibit 28.
Will you indicate of General Ohlendorf to be his official witness at this execution.
Is that right?
That's paragraph 4, Your Honors.
A Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't leave Simferopol for this occasion. It says here I went into the Gypsy quarter of the city - that is within the city. headquarters for there? Kommando 11-B on the way to the Gypsy quarter?
A No. I had no order to do so. from your own office, is that correct? your headquarters? thing you saw was that German personnel were engaged in loading these people on trucks, is that correct? ing at this place. That is what I had to inspect. There was a roll call and then in certain intervals they were transported away from there by trucks. I was to supervise this incident.
Q Did you get there in time?
A May I say something more. It was translated "supervise". My whole struggle is to make that clear. I apologize, but it should be: "to look at". I was to look at it. loading site what was the first thing you saw - what was the first thing that caught your eye. Now you have answered that question and I accept your amendment that the first thing you saw was the roll call being taken, that is correct, is it not?
ed there, that is the first thing I saw. Then there were some trucks there. There were guards and I also saw how people were loaded on trucks and how the trucks left.
Q Were you there when the first truck was loaded with these people?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, did I understand you to say that he said there was a roll call.
MR. WALTON: Your Honor, I suppose we must check back with the court stenographer.
THE PRESIDENT: Well in his enumeration now of the things which he saw the roll call was not mentioned. BY MR. WALTON:
Q I will ask the question again. Was there a roll call taken of these people gathered at this loading site before they climbed on the trucks?
A I said that these people's names were read off. Well, that's a roll call. I don't know whether you call it such but it was a control which was carried out. it in the negative - were you there when the first truck was loaded? Did I understand you to say you were not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I knew that some transports had already left this place and what I saw was not the beginning of it. I came in the middle of it.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do you know who made up the list which was being read?
A I cannot say, Your Honor, I don't know. BY MR. WALTON:
Q Now, Mr. Schubert, about how many German personnel were engaged in loading these people on these trucks? too high but approximately 20.
Q Was Dr. Braune there when you got there?
A No, I didn't see Dr. Braune on that day at all, When I returned from this order to the Group Staff I saw Dr. Braune again because Kommando 11-B was in the same building with us. yesterday in your direct examination who was in charge of this operation?
of Kommando 11-B. SS Hauptsturmfuehrers were present. What were their names if you know?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I am not sure whether I wouldn't give a wrong name. I thought that one of these captains was Captain Gabel, commanding officer of the Police Company, but it is possible that I am wrong and that it might have been his successor, the name of whom I don't recall. I don't remember this fact so exactly that I could take it upon my conscience to say Gabel or someone else. Perhaps both of them were there but I cannot say with certainty. Hauptsturmfuehrer? of Kommando 10-A which had been in Simferopol from the beginning and later was subordinated to Kommando 11-B but unfortunately I cannot give you the name of this man. I don't remember. present at the loading site when you got there?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor -was present during the loading phase while you were there? lieutenant of the police and there was another SS-first lieutenant and I think those were the two officers who were present at that place.
Q Now, Mr. Schubert, was there an officer in charge of these enlisted men who were loading these people on the truck? there, at that moment, in any case they were under command of the 1st lieutenant of the Police Company.
of the Police Company?
people to the execution site?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you exactly. I didn't see all the trucks at Once.
But I recall the fact that the Army furnished us g hundred people in the trucks and get them away from the loading site?
Approximately hour long, how much time did it take?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you this from my own knowledge. I wasn't there during the entire time of the transportation.
I was left this place.
These vehicles were sent off in intervals. I can not say how long a time the entire loading process took.
I can merely truck?
A I cannot even answer that question. I merely saw trucks that left the place and I can't say whether a truck that had returned was carrying a load.
I can't really say.
the truck toke off from the time it was empty until it was filled?
A I have no possibility of estimating. You can do it quickly Or you can do it slowly.
I don't know how long it takes until you have read go.
It all depends how the these things are carried out.
Q Were these Gypsy transported in open trucks or closed trucks?
Q How many guards were on each truck besides the driver?
there was an assistant driver. This was customary in the Army and
Q Was he armed?
Q What arms did he carry?
A Certainly that varied. He might have carried a pistol, he might
Q Did these Gypsies enter these trucks Willingly?
A I don't think that they went there gladly in any case.
Q I don't mean that - did these guards have to force them up the up the ramp and into the truck?
their own power, in that right?
THE PRESIDENT: Did the Gypsies know at that time what was going to happen?
A I don't think so, Your Honor, at that point they didn't.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, when you remarked that they didn't do it gladly
A No, Your Honor, their fate was not quite certain. It was uncertain and I meant to express this uncertainty.
They knew some change was to BY MR. WALTON: Witness, how long did you personally remain at this loading site in the Gypsy quarter?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A. In any case I was not there longer than twenty minutes.
It was sufficient for me to stay there a short time
Q. Now, Mr. Schubert, you said when you first left
A. I drove, Mr. Prosecutor, but I needed five minutes
Q. Oh, a five-minute drive in an automobile?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Well then, you probably have answered my next question.
I presume you went in your own car from the loading site.
You had your own transportation between these two Places, did you not?
A. I had a car of the office. One was assigned to me for that occasion.
I used it.
Q. Now, did your take the same route that the trucks execution site?
A. I cannot tell you definitely because I didn't road.
There was no other possibility.
Q. Do you know whether or not these people created Execution site?
A. I know nothing about that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. On the arrival of the trucks at the execution site, who placed these people in the anti-tank ditch?
A. Those were members of this execution kommando who had been ordered to carry out the execution.
They were mem formation, SD, or state police men of Einsatzgruppe D.
Q. What was the rank of the man in charge of the execution kommando?
A. That was Sturmbannfuehrer Schulz.
Q. And it was at his command that these people Were placed in the anti-tank ditch, is that right?
A. Well, he certainly didn't order it again and again in every case, out he distributed the men under his command for definite jobs and these officers and men then carried out those jobs.
Q. Now, this execution squad, I believe you state in your affidavit, were armed with automatic weapons and rifles, is that right?
A. They were armed with rifles and partly With machine pistols, yes. I don't know whether I said in the affidavit - yes, yes, so it says here.
Q. Now, was each truckload of these gypsies executed on arrival?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I myself saw only one such transport out I may assume that every preceding and further transport took place in the same way as the one that I Saw.
Q. Did you, on arrival at the execution site, get out of your car, walk over to the anti-tank ditch and look in it?
A. Later, out first of all I stopped at the road and saw something different which took place there, namely the way they were unloaded and the way the valuables were registered.
Q. We will come back to the valuables in just a moment. You stated that you saw these people unloaded. Was there any disorder among the truckload of people when they were ordered to get out of the truck at the execution site?
A. No.
Q. Did they make any verbal protest, was there any shouting?
A. No.
Q. When they reached the ground my understanding is that then they were relieved of their money and valuables, is that correct?
A. As far as the people complied with the order to give up their valuables, yes, these things were collected, but they were not forced to give up anything.
Q. Was their outer clothing collected at this time, overcoats and shoes?
A. I know nothing about shoes, out coats were also taken away, overcoats.
Q. Was their suit or their outer clothing, besides clothing -- in other words, witness, were they stripped down to their underwear?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, no more than their overcoats or furs were taken away, otherwise nothing.
Q. Now long after they were relieved of their valuables and their outer clothing or their overcoats before they were ordered to the anti-tank ditch, how much time elapsed?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, this period of time was very brief, and I would say that it wasn't even five minutes.
Q. How were these gypsies placed in the tank-ditch, were they kneeling or were they standing or were they lying down?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have to draw your attention to an unfortunate phrase in the affidavit. There it also says, "in the anti-tank ditch", under No. 6. I must have overlooked this when I signed it. In any case, it isn't correct. The people that were to be shot were standing at the edge of this anti-tank ditch and were shot there.
Q. Did they face the execution squad or were they shot in the back?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, they were lined up with their faces turned away. During the execution which I witnessed myself it happened that some of the people to De shot on their own turned their faces towards the execution kommando and had themselves shot this way in a very courageous way.
Q. Mr. Schubert, I believe you testified that General Ohlendorf wanted these people executed in the most humane manner possible. I now ask you were mercy shots administered to those who were not killed instantly?
A. I did not witness, or I was not able to witness such a procedure. The execution which I saw, or during this execution I did not see that such mercy shots had to be fired. The persons were dead.
Q. Now, after these people were shot, did you walk over and view the anti-tank ditch, the bottom of the antitank ditch?
A. I saw this anti-tank ditch, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, your question presupposes that as they were shot they fell into the ditch.
MR. WALTON: He said so, your Honor, they were shot on the edge.
THE PRESIDENT: On the edge, out develop then that they actually fell into the ditch.
MR. WALTON: I am sorry. I reached that conclusion.
Q. (By Mr. Walton). I believe you testified a few moments ago that these people were lined up on the edge of this anti-tank ditch and they were facing away from the execution squad. Some of them turned and were shot then. Now, where did the bodies fall after they were shot?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, these bodies dripped into this ditch.
Q. Now then, the question which I asked you was, did you ever view this anti-tank ditch or did you yourself ever stand and look down into the anti-tank ditch after these executions were performed?
A. In this case, yes, I did.
Q. Did you see whether or not any of the people lying there moved or seemed to be still alive?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't See that.
Q. It would have been apparent to you when you stood there on the edge of that ditch if someone had moved, would it not?
A. Oh, yes, certainly.
Q. Well, your inspection confirmed the fact to you that these people were dead in that ditch; everyone was killed outright; there was no one allowed to suffer, is that correct?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I had no cause to believe that such a thing happened.
Q. Now, Mr. Schubert, whose task was it to bury these people?
A. I did not witness that procedure out according to what I heard about it, members of the execution kommando had to fill in this anti-tank ditch with earth after the execution.
Q. Now, let's go back to the money, valuables-
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, while you are on that subject, before you proceed to the next one, would you find Out if anyone was assigned to determine that desth had been instantaneous, that the victims prior to being buried were actually dead?
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Walton). Mr. Schubert, did you know whether or not the staff phusician was present, Dr. Schnapwagner, was he present at this execution?
A. Not at my time, no. Whether he was there otherwise I cannot say.
officer or enlisted man had the task to determine whether those people lying on the bottom of that ditch were dead?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, this was the job of the Officer in charge of the execution squad. attached to Einsatzgruppe D? because there were several execution squads who relieved each other. BY THE PRESIDENT: executees were dead, did he get down into the ditch or merely view from above? ditch, but certainly he convinced himself whether these people were actually dead according to his conviction. It was only a matter of determining whether a person actually was not killed and thus was still moving in order to giv e him a coup de grace then.
Q How big was the ditch? that a person was alive and yet seemed dead, wasn't it? of the manner in which the execution was carried out, that is, it was fired from a relatively short distance of five to six meters, and thus the result could only be fatal; it was a matter of course for the officer that if the man who had shot had really hit the person to be executed, that person was really dead.
aimed badly and as a result the victim received only a shock, he could have been knocked unconscious with the bullet but not yet actually be dead so that to the casual observer he would seem to be dead but in fact his heart was still beating?
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. WALTON:
Q Now, Mr. Schubert, coming back to the point where the money and the valuables and the outer clothing were collected from these people, was an officer or an enlisted men in charge of this detail? officer who supervised these matters at the place.
Q Do you know his name?
Q Now, you say this was in December, 1941. The weather was quite cold, wasn't it?
A Mr. Prosecutor, in the Crimea it never really gets cold as far as our concept of cold is concerned, but I do recall that the temperature was a few degrees above zero at that time. (That is probably Centigrade.)
THE PRESIDENT: Just one more question please, on the matter of the execution. Did the executors aim at the head, was that the vital point, the back of the head, or at a point in the back that the bullet would penetrate through to the heart?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I merely saw that the people aimed at the head. Q (By Mr. Walton) Mr. Schubert, how soon after the Einsatzgruppe D for transshipment to Berlin?
exclusively valuables. Certainly they got there on the same reached Einsatzgruppe D headquarters?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I merely know that the Einsatz transshipment to Berlin?
Q His name was Ulrich?
valuables?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. As far as I know they only were keep away unauthorized persons out at the execution site?
A I can't really estimate that, but I would say that places were people walked and drove
A This entire terrain, Mr. Prosecutor, was bordered on one side by the road from Simferopol to Karasubasar. That was really the only road. Beyond that there were same field paths which branched off and which had to be blocked off. The traffic was re-routed via another road quite a distance away from this place. did you visit these guard posts to see that these approaches were blocked off? off guards. I don't think I missed any one of them. were they not? Einsatzkommando llb?
A I cannot exclude this possibility, but I don't know with certainty. I don't remember the various individuals.
Q I don't mean that, but they were not exclusively the police company?
A Certainly not, Mr. Prosecutor. There were also members of the field police which had been furnished by the Army.
Q Now, Was Dr. Braune at the Site of this execution at any time you were there?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. the site Of the execution? the way back to the building of the group staff I passed by a large number of guards that were blocking off the area before I actually returned to headquarters.
see how near finished this action was? shortly to see whether things had been completed there or if they hadn't, that things were carried out according to orders there.
Q All right. Then you left the execution Site and you proceeded past this road block on your way book to view once more the number of people still to be executed, still to be loaded on to trucks, was that your action? were any persons left there to be loaded, and when I saw that there were some more I watched them for a short time in order to be certain that these matters were carried out as ordered.
Q What I want is the answer to my question. You left the actual execution site, drove in your car by the roadblock, and then went on to the loading site again. That is the action you took after you saw these fifteen or twenty people shot?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Yes. Now then, Mr. Schubert, after you had determined that the loading was still going on properly, where did you go When you left the loading site for the second time? arrival?
Q Was Seibert there?
A Herr Seibert was not there at all. He was on furlough.
Q He hadn't come in as yet? did you report to General Ohlendorf? think I can say with certainty that I saw him the day during the late afternoon and talked to him. Ohlendorf orally, or did you make a written report? talked about or discuss the facts of this execution with Seibert on his return shortly after? I discussed with Herr Ohlendorf, yes. As far as Seibert is concerned I don't think I spoke to him about them not even after he returned.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, it is twelve-thirty. Would you want to suspend?
MR. WALTON: Yes.
DR. WISMANN: Dr. Wismann, assistant for Dr. Schwarz for the defendant Joost.
Your Honor, Mr. Barr of the interrogation branch has expressed the desire to have the defendant Joost excused this afternoon - or rather to interrogate the defendant Joost in the presence of the defense this afternoon. Therefore, I would ask the Tribunal to excuse the defendant Joost from this afternoon's session and to see to it that he be sent to Room 57 until three o'Clock.