Q Mr. Schubert, you have stated in one of you affidavits that correct?
Q At this time, where was the headquarters of Einsatzgruppe D? What city or what town in Russia?
Ohlendorf?
A My first discussion?
Q Yes?
A Two or three days after my arrival. Perhaps I may explain this
Q Please do so?
members of Einsatzgruppe D. During this visit of Himmler in Nikolajew we suddenly appeared unexpectedly.
At the moment they could not use You could see General Ohlendorf?
A I had a look at the city of Nikolajew. Apart from that I had no other definite work.
I had no special occupation during that time.
Q. Did you hold conversation with other members of the Einsatzgruppe?
A. No, during those days I was together with those
Q. Now when you finally had this conference with General Ohlendorf how long did it last?
A. This discussion with Herr Ohlendorf took a very sonally, very thoroughly, and I think some of them didn't like it.
This took a very long time. I think it was se
Q. Did General Ohlendorf have his conference with all time in private?
A. No, we were all 10 together in the casino of the
Q. Did General Ohlendorf explain to you at the con gruppen D was?
A. I did not quite get that. What the primary task was?
Q. Did he tell you in what work generally the Einsatz gruppen was engaged at that particular time?
A. I can only repeat here what I have already said this morning.
Herr Ohlendorf described the work of the
Q. Was anything said in that conference or by General functionaries, Krimjaks, Asiatics, or others?
A. May I repeat here what I said this morning. About
Q. Now, I believe you testifies this morning that the Headquarters of Einsatzgruppen D, is that correct?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, not through the files did I executions, possibly.
And, in order to be clear about such matters I asked Herr Ohlendorf about this.
On that
Q. About how soon did this discussion concerning the arrived in Nikolajew?
A. I cannot say that any more now for certain but I but I don't know for certain.
Q. At your first opportunity then you asked him about why these terms of resettlement, etc.
, were used in reports to mean liquidation of Russian nationals?
At you first op portunity you discussed this with General Ohlendorf?
A. The occasion of that discussion after his return
Q. Now when did you first learn that reports of ex were being sent to Berlin?
A. For certain after that discussion because before
Q. Did you ever discuss this topic with any other member of the Gruppenstab?
A. I cannot remember any discussion, Mr. Prosecutor, concerning this Fuehrer order.
There was no particular
Q. How soon after you reported for duty with Ein satzgruppe D did you meet Seibert?
A. I met Mr. Seibert when I came to Gruppenstab of
Q. Did you ever hold any discussions with him con cerning your duties?
A. About my duties, my official duties? As far as Ohlendorf.
I had no reason to discuss my duties with Herr Seibert.
Of course, I talked to Herr Seibert every now
Q. Now, after you reported to Einsatzgruppen D in himself, did you not?
A. Yes, from Herr Ohlendorf personally.
Q. How soon after your assignment was given and you his headquarters for an official trip to Berlin?
A. That might have been about 2 weeks but I cannot say for certain.
*---*t is possible that Herr Ohlendorf re turned already before two weeks had elapsed.
I remember
Q. I think you misunderstood the question. How soon trip to Berlin?
A. I beg you pardon. I now understand the question
Q. Now, at that time some of your tasks and duties and your surroundings were strange to you, weren't they?
You were a new man on a new job, so at least you didn't did you?
A. I believe that it would have been the same for
Q. That's right.
A. I was about to do a task which was partly new to me.
I had to get used to it. Therefore, on the first day
Q. And when prospects or problems came up which puzzled in these problems with General Ohlendorf gone?
A. May I ask which particular definite problems?
Q. Any problem which you didn't exactly understand, ficial duties to whom would you turn for advice and counsel?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have a disappointment for you, me.
Of course, I had some qualifications, some previous training in order to conduct filing and registration.
During confronted by any puzzles so I didn't need any counsel.
Q. I believe you testified that one of your tasks was the dispatching of outgoing mail.
Now, if mail came into Berlin or in Berlin, wasn't it a problem for you to decide to whom this mail would be referred for action?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, there was no difficulty - there was no real problem for me.
These matters went automatically of Einsatzgruppen D to deal with it.
In this case during duties, with the entire files of Einsatzgruppe D?problem?
while you were first being acquainted with your job?
A No, there was no reason for this. I myself got used to my work and acquainted myself with my work.
I don't remember ever having asked
Q You just don't remember. It is possible that you could have, but it does not occur to your memory now.
Is that what you tell the
Q All right. You have Document Book I there on the stand, do you not?
Q Let's turn to your affidavit which occurs on Page 17 of the English, Page 19 of the German, which is Document 2716.
being Prosecution's Exhibit 4. Now, I particularly direct your attention to Paragraph 6 of that affidavit.
In this paragraph you relate some facts concerning two Einsatzkommando leaders who reported for duty.
Who were these men?
the kommando chief 11b, the co-defendant, Dr. Braune,and the successor name was Mueller.
I believe that when making my affidavit I thought the immediately preceding paragraph of that affidavit?
Note, please, that you start Paragraph 6 with the words, "During this period".A "During this activity" it says here.
starts, "During this activity". It refers, therefore, as far as II
Q All right. Now, you say these men were Dr. Braune and Nosske?
A Not Nosske, but Dr. Braune and Mueller.
Q I beg your pardon, Dr. Nosske's sucessor?
about their duties from anyone except General Ohlendorf?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot say anything about these discussions:
received instructions about their tasks. What kind of instructions these were, of course I don't know.
I could only give a general any instructions from anyone else in the staff except General Ohlendorf?
you relate in some detail the manner of reporting to Berlin. Now, did man, Fritsch?
A The copy of these radio reports?
A Yes, even these radio reports had been sent off. They were filling by the radio operator?
office they went back to the office. There, of course, I had opportunity top secret file?
such. That is, they were kept in secret files and kept secret.
courier?
the office and were part of the files. Such reports or the copies of restricted or open matters?
A One cannot make a general statement about this, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Well, they contained details of the separate executions. What file would they go into?
may I point out here, Mr. Prosecutor, that in our file system concerning made on the outside, and I don't see much difference.
We treated it clerk?
A I did not quite get it, the right or the possibility?
these documents, did you not?
on it where it could be secured at night, could it not?
A I don't think so, Mr. Prosecutor. Conditions were so primitive matters.
We could only treat them as such in as far as we had possibility
Q Let me ask you this. Could any of the twenty-five or thirty look at one of your reports?
A Not just like that, Mr. Prosecutor.
situational report which had been dispatched out of that office?
Could General Ohlendorf act in that manner?
Q Who else besides yourself, your clerk and General Ohlendorf?
authorized for this by Mr. Ohlendorf. They needed a special order by Herr Ohlendorf for this.
If a kommando chief, for example, and come and in his work?
to present permission from General Ohlendorf, did he?
MR. WALTON: Your Honor, it is a convenient place for me to stop.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. The Tribunal will be in recess (An adjournment was taken until 6 January, 1942, at 0930 hours.)
America, against Otto Ohlendorf, et al., defendants,
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States
MR. GLANCY: May it please the Tribunal-
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Glancy.
MR. GLANCY: The Prosecution is in receipt of the original of counsel for Dr. Strauch objected to its authenticity and requested that and defense counsel.
I expected Dr. Gick to be present in Court but I see he is not here.
I will give it to the Secretary General for the perusal of the Court and will notify Dr. Gick that it is present.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you made arrangements to photostat this document?
MR. GLANCY: The photostat is now in evidence - the photostat of
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what I had in mind was that this document being
MR. GLANCY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: We cannot exclude the possibility that argument you now have and it wouldn't hurt any one to have this photostat
MR. GLANCY: Yes, sir. I shall make arrangements to have it photostated.
At the present time we need it for the archives but will
THE PRESIDENT: When you contact Dr. Gick inform him what transpired
MR. GLANCY: Yes, sir, very well.
BY MR. WALTON:
Q Mr. Schubert, yesterday at the close of the session we were Exhibit #4. I would appreciate it very much if you would turn to
THE PRESIDENT: He is very familiar with that Document I don't think you need to wait any time until he locates it.
I think he could locate BY MR. WALTON:
Q Yes, sir. Now you state in this document and I quote, or rather, other things and I quote:
" number of places destroyed and number of persons killed". Would these reports contain information that a Jewish synagogue was burned by units of the Einsatzgruppe?
Book - that a synagogue was burned. I never said that.
number of persons killed. Now you said that, didn't you?
was burned by units of the Einsatzgruppe?
A NO, Mr. Prosecutor, that isn't how it is meant and apart from this wording I don't know any report where any such report might be contained.
I don't know of any such reports. Something quite different is meant here.
This wording refers to that part of the reports territory where Einsatzgruppen D was active during certain times.
I according to the reports which we received.
Part of this was, for had been completely destroyed and did not exist any longer.
But this there were those persons killed.
Them in fact it would have been right?
A I don't refer that only to the enemy who was killed but to any persons killed.
That might have been civilian people or enemy soldiers or might have been our own losses.
I only speak of casualties here and
Q I can understand what you said about casualties. It is in the very next sentence of that paragraph.
But I was speaking particularly about the phrase " total amount of persons killed". Now would that phrase include executions as well as people killed in open combat?
A Mr. Prosecutor, this wording here does not refer to executions to mean the same as executions mentioned before.
This was never
Q All right. Let's consider the operational situation reports of which you had personal knowledge.
I believe you stated yesterday that them.
did you not?
AA total figure for a certain period of reporting. Of course, you are right.
I cannot exclude the fact that in these reports communica of the Einsatzgruppe, didn't you?
A Mutilated, I never heard that Mr. Prosecutor. I merely know the
Q Let me repeat the question. I think the translation was a little bit different from what I meant.
From reading the copies, knew that thousands of people were being executed monthly, didn't you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, that monthly thousands of people were executed I would not like to say.
Here I can only stick up for the fact that I
Q Would you say hundreds of people were executed monthly?
A I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, you asked whether I would say hundreds?
monthly according to reports which you saw?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot determine this for a certain figure fro a month.
Occasionally I saw figures and heard of figures which were cannot determine this for a certain period of time.
I am unable to do by units of the Einsatzgruppe, weren't there?
filled?
A There was no special order for this Mr. Prosecutor. This was
Q Mr. Schubert, I am asking you for the name of the person in the uation report for you to file.
Who was this person?
A Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps I may briefly explain the way we worked.
Q Who was that person?
without trying to dodge the question. I merely asked who the man was who left these copies in your office.
Let's pay attention and answer promptly.
Now, in paragraph 8 of this affidavit you make a statement to headquarters you, as you state there, and I quote:
"looked after the house". Approximately how long did these inspection trips last?
A That varied very much, Mr. Prosecutor. These official trips days.
That varied.
looking after the house?
A I do not recall any such case, Mr. Prosecutor. Of course, I
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed Mr. Walton.
BY MR. WALTON:
would you have done with this order?
A Mr. Prosecutor, in such a case, that is an emergency situation contacted him then, too?
A If he was enroute it was very difficult, Mr. Prosecutor, because in his vehicle he did not have a radio instrument to keep up contact with the gruppenstaff but I knew in general where Herr Ohlendorf went to and could always try to reach him and that was a technical possibility. accompanied General Ohlendorf to Prague at one time. Suppose during that time the same emergency had arisen, to whom would you have referred this order for action? It took a long time to get from the Crimea to Prague, and you know they are on their way and you get an order which demands immediate action, to whom would you refer?
A Mr. Prosecutor, in every case, in each and every case, there was one definite way of receiving instructions from Berlin, from the chief of the Security Police himself if any such emergency arose. There was always their radio communication. The distance didn't make any difference. In a short period of time through the radio a decision can be reached from Berlin to the Crimea in a very short time.
and that General Ohlendorf and Seibert were gone? Would Heydrich's decision come back to you over the radio?
A I don't think that the Chief of the Security Police would have
Q No, I don't mean that. We take our same example. Fro purposes of this example General Ohlendorf and Seibert cannot be reached.
You receive an order which demands immediate action.
You acquaint the Chief gruppe D. Now, the question I ask you is this, after the Chief of the is to whom this matter would be referred, come back to you over the radio?
A Mr. Prosecutor, it would not have come to me personally, but it
Q That is the answer that I wanted. If this matter was a matter which concerned Einsatzkommando 10a and Heydrich said, "Refer that to the area where 10a is," you would then have taken Heydrich's answer and referred it to Seetzen, the commander of 10a, would you not?
A In practice it probably would have been different, Mr. Prosecutor, fore they never had to be informed about this.
The kommando chief of 10a was a Standartenfuehrer.
I cannot imagine that any officer in Berlin in
Q All right, we will take another example. Suppose that in the first instance orders came from Berlin, from Heydrich's office, which ward.
Now, both General Ohlendorf and Seibert are away, and they cannot be reached.
This is a matter which you open and you decide and which ions what to do with this order.
Now, I ask you, would instructions come to forward this order to the commanding officers of the various kommandos?
A Mr. Prosecutor, such instructions were never received and theoreti Einsatzgruppe at that time.
Such a situation, however, never arose.
units, would consider himself bound by orders form Heydrich at Berlin?
A That is not what I am trying to say, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Wouldn't the commander of the 11th Army say, "This is a Security Police order; it means nothing to me.
My commanding general is the only man who can order me to do anything," and he refuses to help, and you various Einsatzkommandos, wouldn't it?