valuables and pocketed them instead of turning them over to Einsatzgruppe D. You would have informed the officer there that this was contrary to Herr Ohlendorf's orders? notice that this officer was not using his authority to prevent such matters, then I would have had to report this incident to Herr Ohlendorf. came upon an officer who was about to use hand grandes to execute the victims. You would have immediately called it to the attention of Ohlendorf that this was contrary to orders? were carried out in accordance with the orders issued by the chief of the Einsatzgruppe D? they were actually carried out, I don't know, and I had no influence on that for this the presponsible person was an officer holding the rank of a major who was responsible for everything and who had all the authority. I was not responsible for the action, execution, I was only to find out about the manner in which it was to be carried out, but I had no influence on whether it was actually carried out, but only to see how it was carried out. that he was going astray in the event he was not following the orders of Ohlendorf? else would have done that without a corresponding order if he had found out about incidents of that kind. That, of course, was his duty without any special order.
THE PRESIDENT: The court will recess for 15 minutes.
DR. KOESSL: Your Honor, just one little question before the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, even a big question.
BY DR. KOESSL:
Q Witness, were you ever threatened by Mr. Wartenberg?
A Yes, and I am perfectly aware of the fact that Mr. Wartenberg the question to this effect by my defense counsel which was "whether he had threatened me with a broomstick in Oberursel on one occasion", in the negative.
I can say, under oath, that I can give an affirmative BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q When was that?
Q When as that--the date?
and December '45. I don't know what month--which of the three months.
the affidavit--wasn't it?
recollection of a year and a half previously?
A Your Honor, it wasn't the broomstick, but the fact that suddenly
Q With the very same broomstick?
A No, it wasn't the broomstick, Your Honor, but the incidents or realizing again all these methods; I cannot say that it was not exactly to such extreme measures of interrogation again.
I had not by any means forgotten the incident of Oberursel, and I am prepared to give details about this event, if the president wants me to do so,then he is a stronger character than I am, at least, stronger in his resistance. I was no longer in the possession of my full strength, otherwise, I would have resisted again, and if I may emphasize this again, it was my express intention to change all those passages--wrong statements which indicted other people. As far as my own person was concerned, I trusted that I would be able to explain myself if these things would be used against me. Perhaps that was wrong of me to do so, but I cannot find any other explanation for it.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE KOESSL: I would like to continue?
THE PRESIDENT: All right, Dr. Koessl.
BY DR. KOESSL:
in Russia?
class; the corresponding Rumanian distinction, which is about the same as the Iron Cross, and also rememberance distinctions.
I received the German Winter Medallion for the Eastern campaign.
I received the distinction Cruisade (Kreuzzug) against Russia.
I also received the Crimea distinction.
And those other distinctions and commemorative medals which I received during my assignment in Russia.
Insofar as the enemy.
All the others are merely commemorative medals which everybody received who was in Russia during that period.
It was receive the same medals on the same occasions?
A Yes, they were medallions of the German Wehrmacht; they were not
Q When did you finish with your assignment of the East?
remember correctly, on 6th or 8th of July 1942. I flew at the time
Q What did you do during the following time in the SD?
my capacity as Office Chief III in the Reich Security Main office. This position I retained until about the beginning of October 1943.
At
Q Why were you transferred to Office III?
A There were several reasons for this: private reasons as well as official reasons, but they occurred at the same time.
About this persons who were commanding generals and the highest officers.
I, therefore, had to get a new job because of this Fuehrer Order.
Also
Q What did you do in Group III-B?
A In the Group III-B I was an Auxiliary Referent III-BS. That is personnel matters of the group.
That was because of my knowledge which orders, transfers, or T/O Office Ratings, according to the instruc tions of my chief.
I had to supervise the filing and registration
Q How long did you stay in this office?
A I remained in this office until 30 November 1944. With affect from
Q What were your tasks in the SD Sector of Augsburg?
III-B. That is a department where the domestic sphere problems concerning Ethnic Germans and National Health were dealt with.
This work in the SD-Sector Augsburg had to be reorganized right from the start, because the office of the SD Sector of Augsburg in August 1945 had been suspended. Therefore, at first I had to deal with organizing mostly in the internal construction. And when the machinery had finally started working I made reports to the Reich Security Main Office, and the local offices of the Gau District of Schwaben. I did this work until the collapse, exactly until 26 April 1945, when the office owing to the arrival of American troops was dissolved. ing? I receive any police training.
Q Were you ever active in the executive? I don't want you to think of the Russian assignment now? ever have to deal with Jewish questions?
Q Did you know about the event of 9 and 10 November 1938? the time, and could have had according to publications and announcements in the newspapers and the radio. At no time as a SD member did I hear anything about this officially. May I add here that at the time of these events, when they occurred, I myself was not in the service, but that afterwards I heard nothing further about this in my official capacity. I had nothing to do with such matters.
Q But you heard about the work of the Einsatzgruppen?
Q Why did you not leave the SD then?
when presented in such applications were refused; as it happened to longer be deferred, that even such an application was refused.
May I just add something about this.
I believe that I am fully convinced Criminal Police, or the SD, even.
Never did I hear of any orders the treatment of Jews.
I do not know of any such orders. I merely know that the Fuehrer Order as exclusively applied at the time.
I al territory in Russia.
Reasonably, therefore, from this work I could that reason, because the tasks had nothing to do with such matters; on the border shortly before the Police campaign?
A No, I don't know that. I merely heard about this later as part
THE PRESIDENT: Are you referring, Dr. Koessl, to the radio station incidents?
DR. KOESSL: Yes, I was thinking of the attack on the Gleiwitz a number of SD people were made responsible.
I now want to ask BY DR. KOESSL:occupied territories, or did you take part in any such work?
and kept them prisoners under inhumane conditions?
they were called?
A No. This expression "interrogations of the third degree" I only I had never heard of that before.
I did not know what it was.
the shootings of hostages?
measures of this so-called Summary Special Treatment?
A I would like to say here that I know the expression "summary special treatment" means nothing to me, and I can not imagine what it means,
THE PRESIDENT: You don't say you don't know now what it means, do you?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, this was part of the IMT verdict against the SD, and that is where I heard this expression "Summary Special Treatment", and that is the only knowledge I have of this.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood you to say that you don't know even today what it means?
THE WITNESS: I surely don't know now what it means. I only know it was contained in the IMT verdict, but I don't know what it means
THE PRESIDENT: You don't know what is meant by the phrase "Special Treatment"?
THE WITNESS: The expression "Special Treatment"? I think that
THE PRESIDENT: You know "Special Treatment" means liquidation. You know that, don't you?
DR. KOESSL: Your Honor, I didn't ask about "Special Treatment". But about "Summary Special Procedure". Special Summary Procedure.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, well, that is different. Then you are asking about Summary Procedure?
DR. KOESSL: Yes, procedure.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY DR. KOESSL:
Q What do you know about the so-called "Night and Fog Decree" and the "Kugel Decree"?these expressions for the first time.
I actually had never heard of it until then.
In the Camp Darmstadt it was part of the radio broadcast confiscation of property in the occupied territories?
and I did not work there, and I don't know anything about matters or orders which contained such kind of work done by the SD in occupied territories.
Q Did you know whether the SD took part in Forced Labor Programs?
Q Do you know about the so-called "Commando Order"?
Q Did you know the so-called "Lynch Order" against Allied Airmen?
A Such an order was never made known to me. I never heard about it, in fact. avoid punishment? originally I was in French captivity, and I then asked the French Captain to transfer me to the Americans if the territory occupied by the French would be handed over to the Americans. This was the territory of Oberallgau in the Alps. I also pointed out that I had heard the announcement of the American Army according to which every officer NCO and enlisted man who had served in any part of the NSDAP was to remain where he was until further decisions had been made concerning such people. I, therefore, had to expect that the Americans in Augsburg would look for me, and, I, therefore, asked to have me handed over to the American authorities, so that I could assume the responsibility for my work there. I think that I considered that I owed it to those persons in Augsburg who worked under me, and who might be interrogated by the Americans. I want to assume responsibility for my work and did not want to keep anything a secret.
DR. KOESSL: I have no further questions, thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Any defense counsel desire to cross examine the witness? If not, Mr. Walton will proceed with the Prosecution's cross BY MR. WALTON:
Q Mr. Schubert, you have stated in one of you affidavits that correct?
Q At this time, where was the headquarters of Einsatzgruppe D? What city or what town in Russia?
Ohlendorf?
A My first discussion?
Q Yes?
A Two or three days after my arrival. Perhaps I may explain this
Q Please do so?
members of Einsatzgruppe D. During this visit of Himmler in Nikolajew we suddenly appeared unexpectedly.
At the moment they could not use You could see General Ohlendorf?
A I had a look at the city of Nikolajew. Apart from that I had no other definite work.
I had no special occupation during that time.
Q. Did you hold conversation with other members of the Einsatzgruppe?
A. No, during those days I was together with those
Q. Now when you finally had this conference with General Ohlendorf how long did it last?
A. This discussion with Herr Ohlendorf took a very sonally, very thoroughly, and I think some of them didn't like it.
This took a very long time. I think it was se
Q. Did General Ohlendorf have his conference with all time in private?
A. No, we were all 10 together in the casino of the
Q. Did General Ohlendorf explain to you at the con gruppen D was?
A. I did not quite get that. What the primary task was?
Q. Did he tell you in what work generally the Einsatz gruppen was engaged at that particular time?
A. I can only repeat here what I have already said this morning.
Herr Ohlendorf described the work of the
Q. Was anything said in that conference or by General functionaries, Krimjaks, Asiatics, or others?
A. May I repeat here what I said this morning. About
Q. Now, I believe you testifies this morning that the Headquarters of Einsatzgruppen D, is that correct?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, not through the files did I executions, possibly.
And, in order to be clear about such matters I asked Herr Ohlendorf about this.
On that
Q. About how soon did this discussion concerning the arrived in Nikolajew?
A. I cannot say that any more now for certain but I but I don't know for certain.
Q. At your first opportunity then you asked him about why these terms of resettlement, etc.
, were used in reports to mean liquidation of Russian nationals?
At you first op portunity you discussed this with General Ohlendorf?
A. The occasion of that discussion after his return
Q. Now when did you first learn that reports of ex were being sent to Berlin?
A. For certain after that discussion because before
Q. Did you ever discuss this topic with any other member of the Gruppenstab?
A. I cannot remember any discussion, Mr. Prosecutor, concerning this Fuehrer order.
There was no particular
Q. How soon after you reported for duty with Ein satzgruppe D did you meet Seibert?
A. I met Mr. Seibert when I came to Gruppenstab of
Q. Did you ever hold any discussions with him con cerning your duties?
A. About my duties, my official duties? As far as Ohlendorf.
I had no reason to discuss my duties with Herr Seibert.
Of course, I talked to Herr Seibert every now
Q. Now, after you reported to Einsatzgruppen D in himself, did you not?
A. Yes, from Herr Ohlendorf personally.
Q. How soon after your assignment was given and you his headquarters for an official trip to Berlin?
A. That might have been about 2 weeks but I cannot say for certain.
*---*t is possible that Herr Ohlendorf re turned already before two weeks had elapsed.
I remember
Q. I think you misunderstood the question. How soon trip to Berlin?
A. I beg you pardon. I now understand the question
Q. Now, at that time some of your tasks and duties and your surroundings were strange to you, weren't they?
You were a new man on a new job, so at least you didn't did you?
A. I believe that it would have been the same for
Q. That's right.
A. I was about to do a task which was partly new to me.
I had to get used to it. Therefore, on the first day
Q. And when prospects or problems came up which puzzled in these problems with General Ohlendorf gone?
A. May I ask which particular definite problems?
Q. Any problem which you didn't exactly understand, ficial duties to whom would you turn for advice and counsel?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have a disappointment for you, me.
Of course, I had some qualifications, some previous training in order to conduct filing and registration.
During confronted by any puzzles so I didn't need any counsel.
Q. I believe you testified that one of your tasks was the dispatching of outgoing mail.
Now, if mail came into Berlin or in Berlin, wasn't it a problem for you to decide to whom this mail would be referred for action?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, there was no difficulty - there was no real problem for me.
These matters went automatically of Einsatzgruppen D to deal with it.
In this case during duties, with the entire files of Einsatzgruppe D?problem?
while you were first being acquainted with your job?
A No, there was no reason for this. I myself got used to my work and acquainted myself with my work.
I don't remember ever having asked
Q You just don't remember. It is possible that you could have, but it does not occur to your memory now.
Is that what you tell the
Q All right. You have Document Book I there on the stand, do you not?
Q Let's turn to your affidavit which occurs on Page 17 of the English, Page 19 of the German, which is Document 2716.
being Prosecution's Exhibit 4. Now, I particularly direct your attention to Paragraph 6 of that affidavit.
In this paragraph you relate some facts concerning two Einsatzkommando leaders who reported for duty.
Who were these men?
the kommando chief 11b, the co-defendant, Dr. Braune,and the successor name was Mueller.
I believe that when making my affidavit I thought the immediately preceding paragraph of that affidavit?
Note, please, that you start Paragraph 6 with the words, "During this period".A "During this activity" it says here.
starts, "During this activity". It refers, therefore, as far as II
Q All right. Now, you say these men were Dr. Braune and Nosske?
A Not Nosske, but Dr. Braune and Mueller.
Q I beg your pardon, Dr. Nosske's sucessor?
about their duties from anyone except General Ohlendorf?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot say anything about these discussions:
received instructions about their tasks. What kind of instructions these were, of course I don't know.
I could only give a general any instructions from anyone else in the staff except General Ohlendorf?
you relate in some detail the manner of reporting to Berlin. Now, did man, Fritsch?
A The copy of these radio reports?
A Yes, even these radio reports had been sent off. They were filling by the radio operator?
office they went back to the office. There, of course, I had opportunity top secret file?
such. That is, they were kept in secret files and kept secret.
courier?
the office and were part of the files. Such reports or the copies of restricted or open matters?
A One cannot make a general statement about this, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Well, they contained details of the separate executions. What file would they go into?
may I point out here, Mr. Prosecutor, that in our file system concerning made on the outside, and I don't see much difference.
We treated it clerk?
A I did not quite get it, the right or the possibility?
these documents, did you not?
on it where it could be secured at night, could it not?
A I don't think so, Mr. Prosecutor. Conditions were so primitive matters.
We could only treat them as such in as far as we had possibility
Q Let me ask you this. Could any of the twenty-five or thirty look at one of your reports?
A Not just like that, Mr. Prosecutor.
situational report which had been dispatched out of that office?
Could General Ohlendorf act in that manner?
Q Who else besides yourself, your clerk and General Ohlendorf?
authorized for this by Mr. Ohlendorf. They needed a special order by Herr Ohlendorf for this.
If a kommando chief, for example, and come and in his work?