have to make concerning this affidavit? been corrected by now. In the last but one sentence in paragraph 2 it says "I was appointed Ohlendorf's adjutant for the Einsatzgruppe and I kept this post from my joining the group until I left in 1944". I think that must have been a mistake. I think that has been corrected by the prosecutor. It should have said '42.
Q I think that is only in the German copy. It should read June, 142.
Q Any more corrections? where it says in the last sentence "it is known to me that it was of special importance for Ohlendorf that people who were shot were killed in a humane and military manner as in case other methods of killing were used the psychological burden of the members of the kommando would have been too heavy." I was very sorry that this is the last sentence of this particular passage, but I could not very well tell Mr. Wartenberg what he should put in and what he should leave out, but in my interrogation I tried to explain that this psychological burden was not only the particular burden of the kommando itself but that each victim, of course, would have a much heavier burden, and that is what I would like to say here; and I think that with this all matters are now cleared up which I wanted to be cleared up. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Now, witness, you consider yourself an educated man, don't you?
A Your Honor, one should not say that of one's self. But I think that I have an average education.
Q Well, you had your schooling; you worked in a lawyer's office; you were a civil servant; you worked for the Reich; and you belonged to the Hitler Youth. I don't know that that would be any evidence of great education but at any rate -- how old are you?
Q Thirty-three years old? How old were you when you signed this affidavit?
Q Yes. Now you signed three times on this document, didn't you? you signed your name three times?
A I don't quite understand, Your Honor.
Q You signed your name to each sheet of the affidavit?
Q You know you actually wrote your name, you wrote "H. Schubert" at the end of the first sheet, "H. Schubert" at the end of the second sheet; and then at the end of the third sheet you let yourself out completely and signed "Heinz Hermann Schubert", didn't you?
Q You have it there before you. You are looking at the same occasions, didn't you?
the cyclostyled copy, and the initials are not contained there. I sheet of the affidavit?
different times to a paper which in itself was misleading?
matters were actually to be used. He never said that these affidavits the time given to me.
I am saying openly and honestly, I did not fully agree, but I thought -
Q This document contained the word "supervise" at least seven different times. Didn't it occur to you as an educated man that it would be highly misleading to have this word appear seven different times if it did not convey the actual picture of what occurred? I asked Mr. Wertenberg whether I would be able to change it, but I was not permitted to do so, but only the promise was made to me that "you will have the opportunity to explain this". He saw no difference in what I meant when I said "inspect" or "look at" and his own "supervision". He said that was quibbling for words and he thought it was exactly the same thing "supervise" and "look at". and the original affidavit. I would like to have you tell the Tribunal whether you yourself wrote in the word "December" in paragraph 3?
Q And did you yourself write on the left-hand side the word "handwritten" or did you write your initials to the left of that correction?
Q And did you sign each sheet of that affidavit? few minutes ago. affidavit?
"H. Schu". Your Honor thought I had signed "H. Schubert". Only on this last page it gives my full name.
Q You make a difference from "Sch" and Schubert? You make a big difference between those two?
Q you used the phrase, "this confirmed my suspicion." Whom were you suspecting:
yourself? It is your own signature. Did you assume that someone else wrote the "Sch"?order to explain that my recollection was correct.
I only wanted in the date.
why on the very next line only two inches away you didn't correct the word "supervise"?
Q Now, you tell us just how you were not permitted. Did Mr. Wartenberg stand over you with a weapon; did he threaten you with his first; did he have you under duress; did he menace you in any way?
A Mr. President
Q You said you were not permitted. Now, explain what you mean corrections which I was permitted to make by Mr. Wartenberg there,
Q Did you say to him in this affidavit, the word "supervise" is I insist that this word be changed.
Did you tell him some think like that?
Q Yes, and yet in spit of that you signed the affidavit?
permission of Mr. Wartenberg because he had prohibited me to do so.
Q Why didn't you then refuse to sign the affidavit, drop the pen, "I will not sign this affidavit because it is misleading", why didn't you do that?
I was in a physical and in a mental condition which did not allow me to resist Mr. Wertenberg very long and very much.
actions, it was less of an effort not to Sign than to sign? right thing to refuse to sign it. It seems now that it would have been better to do see but I thought after I had resisted for so long and refused to be content, now with the promises of Mr. Wartenberg and apart from that-
Q Did you ever once say to him, "Mr. Wartenberg, I refuse to sign this paper", once, did you ever say that to him?
A Yes,Your Honor referring to the change of the date; when I had to confirm that the wording of the affidavit of the 24th had been changed, I told Mr. Wartenberg that I would not be willing to sign that, and this is how I explain the actual change that was then made and which I was permitted to make. have told us, which we understands, and which is a closed book--You insist on the change of date made; you initialed it, Now, I ask you, leaving aside the date, did you say to Mr. Wartenberg, "I refuse to sign this statement again; but I would like to add now, Your Honor, that immediately after the interrogation of the 18th of February I was taken into a severe custody, and on the 31st of February as well as on the 24th I did not feel myself free in my own will and physically as well as psychologically I was not in the position to resist any further, I was not in the position to go any further than I had already gone, and I thought that I had achieved all that could be done in this situation. I was put into solitary confinement. I was not allowed to go for walks I was put into an unheated cell and that in February. I could not leave the cell even to get my food, The food was brought into my cell. My cell was lit up from outside as at that time it was only usual in the case of defendants, although I at that time was not a defendants, There was, therefore, a difference between my custody as it had been until then. A difference like day and night; my state of health physically was very bad.
I was 26 percent underweight, and I was not in the position-
Q Did Mr. Wartenberg have to do anything with what you have just now related?
A Your Honor, Mr. Wartenberg was asked by my defense counsel here when he was in the witness box under cross examination concerning these matters and, if I remember correctly, he has stated that he had then been under the impression that I was thinking of committing suicide, based on the statements which I had made previously and that it was possible that owing to the statement that he had made to the prison office that therefore I was taken into more severe custody. This statement of Mr. Wartenberg's I cannot bring into agreement with the usual habits in such cases in the prison office. to what you regard as hardships in order to make you sign an affidavit which contained statements not in accordance with the facts, is that the point which you are trying to make? facts? went, and I presume it is only with regard to the affidavit that you tell us about these hardships. Now, do you want to argue or state that you were subjected to this confinement and the other hardships which you have enumerated in order to make you sign an affidavit which did not conform to facts? particular measure, but I could only regard it as pressure because this more severe custody was immediately relieved after I had signed the affidavit, therefore, this is the only conclusion that I am in a position to draw.
Q Did you say to Mr. Wartenberg, "If I sign this paper, will I be released from solitary confinement or did be indicate to you that if you signed it you would be released from confinement?
question I would never put to my victors. I think I would be too proud to do that.
Q Well, were you too proud to sign this statement, "I had the opportunity to make changes and corrections in the above statement. I Made this statement of my own free will without any promise of reward, and I was not subjected to any threat or dress what so ever." Was it because of magnanimity of soul which caused you to sign your name to a statement of that kind when, according to what you tell us now, it does not represent the fact--was that just magnanimity on your part toward your victor, as you call it? This formulation I signed because it was not exactly incorrect to a certain degree, but as I had no possibilities to make any modifying remarks or make any supplementary notes which would not have been received..... today differs from what you said in the affidavit. You said that you did not supervise, you only had to see that it was done. It is again--it is said that I had to see to it that it was done. That is again not quite correct.
Q Did you, or did you not say that? That is what I have in my notes. Did you say that this afternoon? not.
Q You were sent there by Ohlendorf, is that right? execution was not being conducted in the manner ordered by Ohlendorf; you would have spoken to the officer in charge, wouldn't you?
A Yes, Immediately. I may say that General Ohlendorf himself and Dr. Braune inspected the execution on that very day. I would have had enough opportunity to express my misgivings even if the superior officer had not been of my opinion or had not shared my misgivings.
middle of the city in a square--in the public square--you would have immediately informed the officer in charge that this was not in accordance with Ohlendorf's orders, wouldn't you? was well-known that the exeuction place should not have been inside the town but 20 kilometers outside the town.
valuables and pocketed them instead of turning them over to Einsatzgruppe D. You would have informed the officer there that this was contrary to Herr Ohlendorf's orders? notice that this officer was not using his authority to prevent such matters, then I would have had to report this incident to Herr Ohlendorf. came upon an officer who was about to use hand grandes to execute the victims. You would have immediately called it to the attention of Ohlendorf that this was contrary to orders? were carried out in accordance with the orders issued by the chief of the Einsatzgruppe D? they were actually carried out, I don't know, and I had no influence on that for this the presponsible person was an officer holding the rank of a major who was responsible for everything and who had all the authority. I was not responsible for the action, execution, I was only to find out about the manner in which it was to be carried out, but I had no influence on whether it was actually carried out, but only to see how it was carried out. that he was going astray in the event he was not following the orders of Ohlendorf? else would have done that without a corresponding order if he had found out about incidents of that kind. That, of course, was his duty without any special order.
THE PRESIDENT: The court will recess for 15 minutes.
DR. KOESSL: Your Honor, just one little question before the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, even a big question.
BY DR. KOESSL:
Q Witness, were you ever threatened by Mr. Wartenberg?
A Yes, and I am perfectly aware of the fact that Mr. Wartenberg the question to this effect by my defense counsel which was "whether he had threatened me with a broomstick in Oberursel on one occasion", in the negative.
I can say, under oath, that I can give an affirmative BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q When was that?
Q When as that--the date?
and December '45. I don't know what month--which of the three months.
the affidavit--wasn't it?
recollection of a year and a half previously?
A Your Honor, it wasn't the broomstick, but the fact that suddenly
Q With the very same broomstick?
A No, it wasn't the broomstick, Your Honor, but the incidents or realizing again all these methods; I cannot say that it was not exactly to such extreme measures of interrogation again.
I had not by any means forgotten the incident of Oberursel, and I am prepared to give details about this event, if the president wants me to do so,then he is a stronger character than I am, at least, stronger in his resistance. I was no longer in the possession of my full strength, otherwise, I would have resisted again, and if I may emphasize this again, it was my express intention to change all those passages--wrong statements which indicted other people. As far as my own person was concerned, I trusted that I would be able to explain myself if these things would be used against me. Perhaps that was wrong of me to do so, but I cannot find any other explanation for it.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE KOESSL: I would like to continue?
THE PRESIDENT: All right, Dr. Koessl.
BY DR. KOESSL:
in Russia?
class; the corresponding Rumanian distinction, which is about the same as the Iron Cross, and also rememberance distinctions.
I received the German Winter Medallion for the Eastern campaign.
I received the distinction Cruisade (Kreuzzug) against Russia.
I also received the Crimea distinction.
And those other distinctions and commemorative medals which I received during my assignment in Russia.
Insofar as the enemy.
All the others are merely commemorative medals which everybody received who was in Russia during that period.
It was receive the same medals on the same occasions?
A Yes, they were medallions of the German Wehrmacht; they were not
Q When did you finish with your assignment of the East?
remember correctly, on 6th or 8th of July 1942. I flew at the time
Q What did you do during the following time in the SD?
my capacity as Office Chief III in the Reich Security Main office. This position I retained until about the beginning of October 1943.
At
Q Why were you transferred to Office III?
A There were several reasons for this: private reasons as well as official reasons, but they occurred at the same time.
About this persons who were commanding generals and the highest officers.
I, therefore, had to get a new job because of this Fuehrer Order.
Also
Q What did you do in Group III-B?
A In the Group III-B I was an Auxiliary Referent III-BS. That is personnel matters of the group.
That was because of my knowledge which orders, transfers, or T/O Office Ratings, according to the instruc tions of my chief.
I had to supervise the filing and registration
Q How long did you stay in this office?
A I remained in this office until 30 November 1944. With affect from
Q What were your tasks in the SD Sector of Augsburg?
III-B. That is a department where the domestic sphere problems concerning Ethnic Germans and National Health were dealt with.
This work in the SD-Sector Augsburg had to be reorganized right from the start, because the office of the SD Sector of Augsburg in August 1945 had been suspended. Therefore, at first I had to deal with organizing mostly in the internal construction. And when the machinery had finally started working I made reports to the Reich Security Main Office, and the local offices of the Gau District of Schwaben. I did this work until the collapse, exactly until 26 April 1945, when the office owing to the arrival of American troops was dissolved. ing? I receive any police training.
Q Were you ever active in the executive? I don't want you to think of the Russian assignment now? ever have to deal with Jewish questions?
Q Did you know about the event of 9 and 10 November 1938? the time, and could have had according to publications and announcements in the newspapers and the radio. At no time as a SD member did I hear anything about this officially. May I add here that at the time of these events, when they occurred, I myself was not in the service, but that afterwards I heard nothing further about this in my official capacity. I had nothing to do with such matters.
Q But you heard about the work of the Einsatzgruppen?
Q Why did you not leave the SD then?
when presented in such applications were refused; as it happened to longer be deferred, that even such an application was refused.
May I just add something about this.
I believe that I am fully convinced Criminal Police, or the SD, even.
Never did I hear of any orders the treatment of Jews.
I do not know of any such orders. I merely know that the Fuehrer Order as exclusively applied at the time.
I al territory in Russia.
Reasonably, therefore, from this work I could that reason, because the tasks had nothing to do with such matters; on the border shortly before the Police campaign?
A No, I don't know that. I merely heard about this later as part
THE PRESIDENT: Are you referring, Dr. Koessl, to the radio station incidents?
DR. KOESSL: Yes, I was thinking of the attack on the Gleiwitz a number of SD people were made responsible.
I now want to ask BY DR. KOESSL:occupied territories, or did you take part in any such work?
and kept them prisoners under inhumane conditions?
they were called?
A No. This expression "interrogations of the third degree" I only I had never heard of that before.
I did not know what it was.
the shootings of hostages?
measures of this so-called Summary Special Treatment?
A I would like to say here that I know the expression "summary special treatment" means nothing to me, and I can not imagine what it means,
THE PRESIDENT: You don't say you don't know now what it means, do you?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, this was part of the IMT verdict against the SD, and that is where I heard this expression "Summary Special Treatment", and that is the only knowledge I have of this.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood you to say that you don't know even today what it means?
THE WITNESS: I surely don't know now what it means. I only know it was contained in the IMT verdict, but I don't know what it means
THE PRESIDENT: You don't know what is meant by the phrase "Special Treatment"?
THE WITNESS: The expression "Special Treatment"? I think that
THE PRESIDENT: You know "Special Treatment" means liquidation. You know that, don't you?
DR. KOESSL: Your Honor, I didn't ask about "Special Treatment". But about "Summary Special Procedure". Special Summary Procedure.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, well, that is different. Then you are asking about Summary Procedure?
DR. KOESSL: Yes, procedure.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY DR. KOESSL:
Q What do you know about the so-called "Night and Fog Decree" and the "Kugel Decree"?these expressions for the first time.
I actually had never heard of it until then.
In the Camp Darmstadt it was part of the radio broadcast confiscation of property in the occupied territories?
and I did not work there, and I don't know anything about matters or orders which contained such kind of work done by the SD in occupied territories.
Q Did you know whether the SD took part in Forced Labor Programs?
Q Do you know about the so-called "Commando Order"?
Q Did you know the so-called "Lynch Order" against Allied Airmen?
A Such an order was never made known to me. I never heard about it, in fact. avoid punishment? originally I was in French captivity, and I then asked the French Captain to transfer me to the Americans if the territory occupied by the French would be handed over to the Americans. This was the territory of Oberallgau in the Alps. I also pointed out that I had heard the announcement of the American Army according to which every officer NCO and enlisted man who had served in any part of the NSDAP was to remain where he was until further decisions had been made concerning such people. I, therefore, had to expect that the Americans in Augsburg would look for me, and, I, therefore, asked to have me handed over to the American authorities, so that I could assume the responsibility for my work there. I think that I considered that I owed it to those persons in Augsburg who worked under me, and who might be interrogated by the Americans. I want to assume responsibility for my work and did not want to keep anything a secret.
DR. KOESSL: I have no further questions, thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Any defense counsel desire to cross examine the witness? If not, Mr. Walton will proceed with the Prosecution's cross BY MR. WALTON: