THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN: Hoffmann for Nosske. the Tribunal. My request is that the Defendant Nosske be excused from attendance in court this afternoon in order to prepare his document book. Your Honor, my question is the following: The Tribunal will remember the event in Jampol when the Jews were brought into the Rumanian territory. The bridge commander, whose name was Horsch, was to be interrogated, investigated. According to instructions by the Tribunal, by submitting the record, I asked Major Schaeffer in the Defense Center to bring this witness here. I assumed that the Tribunal would have a session tomorrow, Saturday, but there are rumors, I say rumors, your Honor, that there will be no session tomorrow, and in order to avoid that the witness comes here in vain, I would like to ask or inquire whether there is any truth in those rumors, whether the witness should be told not to come.
THE PRESIDENT: Is he available to you by telegram?
DR. HOFFMAN: I would have to go quickly to the information center and ask Major Schaeffer about this. I think he summoned him for tomorrow, but we can also tell him not to come.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Just a moment, please. Dr. Hoffmann, are you certain that by telegraph you could stop this witness from starting on his journey?
DR. HOFFMANN: I am sure of that.
THE PRESIDENT: Because we would not want him to make this trip unnecessarily. I tell you what you might do, Dr. Hoffmann, if I can burden you with it, to find out from the information center if by sending a telegram they can prevent his starting on the trip. If they cannot do that and the man is on his way or will be on his way then we should meet long enough to hear him tomorrow morning, at least for that, because it wouldn't be fair to have him make this trip and have him make it again.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, immediately, I shall -
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think we should have a definite statement either by a report from him or from someone who would know whether he is gone or not. why don't you do that, please, Dr. Hoffmann and then let us know and then we will make our decision.
DR. HOFFMANN: Yes, I shall be back in a few minutes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Very well.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) Witness, before the morning recess, we were talking about the transport of thousands of Jaws which you were instrumental in delivering to Einsatzkommando 12 for further accompanyment into the Rumanian territory. Did any of this transport refuse to go with Lt. Lipps?
A. May I first correct something. In the introductory sentence I think you made a few slight errors, as to my participation in the retransport; in order to clarify this again, in order to avoid further misunderstandings, I was the one who handed on the order. I did not conduct the transport back. From my own knowledge, I cannot say whether the Kommando 12 sent any men to assist. I concluded this from the fact that they did sand people, because we also did this. Now, in order to answer this question, I would lime to say that Lipps did not tell us anything about the fact that people were shot, I think that was the question, was it not?
Q. Did some of these Jews escape and refuse to go with the transport conducted by Lt. Lipps?
A. I did not hear anything about that.
Q. Did you interview any of these Jews when you came upon them on the road to Mogilew-Podolsk.
A. On which road, please?
Q. Chernowitz to Mogilew Podolsk, where you first found them, Did you interview any of them? Did you talk to them?
A. No.
Q. How did you know why they were in this area?
A. I don't understand quite how this is connected with what we are talking about, in order to clarify this.
Q. All right, let me rephrase the question. You have stated that you were advancing from Chernowitz to Mogilew. You came upon a transport of Jews of several thousands. Are we agreed on that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I ask you whether when you first found this transport, when you first knew of it, did you stop and talk to any of these people?
A. No, this transport was travelling and I overtook them with my car.
Q. How did you know what it was?
A. I saw the people. I passed them and seeing that the roads were bad, one had to travel slowly.
Q. How did you know from whence they came?
A. I never said that I knew from where they came. I do not know that even now, from where they come. I assume from their territory itself.
Q. Well, why did you go to Ohlendorf with the suggestion that they be sent back across the river into Rumanian territory, if you don't know whether they came from there or not?
A. That was an entirely different group. Mr. Prosecutor, this transport I saw on my way from Chernowitz to Mogilew. I overtook them. When I came to Chernowitz I heard there from Lt. Lipps when I discussed this matter with him and after all, it was something special, something unusual, that I observed this during the journey that thousands of Jews from the Rumanian territory existed and that he had received instructions to prevent such Rumanian Jews from going back to the German operational territory.
This transport that I saw, to where they brought these people, I don't know at all. I don't think they even crossed the bridge and those people who were on the other side already told me at that time that the Jews came from the Rumanian territory and that seemed to be something similar.
Q. Then you found out from other people then, not the Jews themselves, where they were from, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, and you never stopped your car even to speak to these Jews to question them in any way. You just rode on by?
A. Well, I told you this transport passed through the Rumanian occupied territory and was accompanied by Rumanian military personnel and I had no reason to interfere.
Q. Did you talk to any of the Rumanian military personnel that were accompanying these Jews when you found them?
A. At that time I did not know what was going on.
Q. And the information that you got that they were from Rumanian territory you got from Lt. Lipps and others?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let's go back to Document Book II-3, page 11 of the English text and page 29 of the original in the German text, which is Document 2837 and is Prosecution Exhibit 58. Now this report shows on its face that it was issued from Berlin, does it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did Berlin get these facts which they have related here?
A. From the Einsatzgruppen, of course.
Q. And where do you suppose the group Headquarters got the facts?
A. Normally from the Einsatzkommandos.
Q. Didn't they got these facts from Sonderkommando 10-B that are related in this report?
A. No, this could not be a report from Kommando 10-B, because it is a summary report, or a general report.
Q. Did they get it from Einsatzkommando 12?
A. According to the information, as far as I can see it at the moment, this is a total report of the group, but I cannot see here whether the group made any special report in that case or whether they rearranged it in Berlin or even compiled it out of various reports.
Q. Well, there is no point of Berlin charging certain activities to other groups than the one from which they received the report, is there?
A. It probably was not done on purpose. I assume that errors occurred.
Q. What proportion of the 3105 Jews and 34 Communists were executed by Sonderkommando 10-B?
A. I cannot tell you anything about this.
Q. Well, was Sonderkommando 10-B east the Dnjepr River at the date of this report, namely, the of August, 1941?
A. Yes.
Q. And since this is a summary report from all of the Einsatzkommandos and Sonderkommandos, isn't it reasonable to suppose that it included Sonderkommando 10-B?
A. That is quite possible.
Q. And if they say "all our kommandos shot 3,105 Jews and 34 Communists," it means that Sonderkommando 10-B shot part of them, doesn't it?
A. That is not bound to be like that.
Q. Now you have testified here that there is some doubt in your mind as to whether you know one Robert Barth, a former Hauptscharfuehrer in Sonderkommando 10-B. Would you recognize him if he was summoned as a witness, if you say him?
A. I think so.
Q. Do you ever remember giving a Robert Barth any orders?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Was he present when you were discussing this transport of Jews on the road from Chernowitz to Mogilew Podolsk.
A. I cannot say that either.
Q. It is possible that he was along, isn't it?
A. I cannot exclude the possibility.
Q. Do you remember whether or not he was detailed to go with Lt. Lipps to deliver the transport to the area of Einsatzkommando 12?
A. That order would have been given to him by Obersturmbannfuehrer Lupps. I do not know which people he appointed to this.
Q. Did you not route this transport through the Russian cities, Ananew, Nikilajew, Jampol, and Skajowsk? Isn't that the route that the transport took in order to get to the Rumanian bridge from where you saw them?
A. May I show you where Skadowsk is, Mr. Prosecutor?
(Witness indicating on map.)
Chernowitz is here. Here is is Mogilew Podolsk. Here is Jampol. Ananjew is here and Skadowsk is here. I hardly think that a transport went that route in order to get down here to this first point.
Q. What was the river which these Rumanians crossed? What was the name of the river that these Rumanian Jews corssed?
A. The Dnjestr River.
Q. The Dnjestr River?
A. Yes.
Q. About how many kilometres from where you found them to Rumanian territory was it?
A. I beg your pardon, I don't know what you are referring to now. Where did I find some -
Q. You said you passed this transport on a road from Chernowitz to Mogilew Podoslk. About how many kilometres from the point where you found them to where they crossed the Dnjestr River, was it?
A. That was in Rumanian Sovereign territory. That was between Prut and Dnjestr and whether this transport ever crossed the Dnjestr River I don't know and I doubt it.
on your second visit to him that they be conducted to another bridge. Was this other bridge on the Dnjestr River?
A I certainly did not suggest it to him. At the most, on that occasion I mentioned to him that a second bridge existed. A suggestion I could not make, because of the rank I held. I could not have done that at the time.
Q All right, where was this second bridge? On what river was this second bridge? Jampol. did they not? saw this transport of Jews, approximately how far was it?
A I don't Quite understand this connection. The two matters have nothing to do with each other. First in the first part of the sentence you seem to be talking about the retransport of the Jews who were already in Mogilew and then in the second part of the sentence you connect here, if I have not misunderstood you here, by finding me meeting this transport on the route from Chernowitz to Mogilew, that is, I was on this road where this transport was moving and I don't know why. That was still in Rumanian territory; because of that I cannot establish the distance. There is no point in giving you any distance.
Q Well, didn't you state that you took, or you were connected with plans to take these Jews in this transport which you found to the area of Einsatzkommando 12 and that Einsatzkommando 12 would then take them in Rumanian territory. Now were the two transports of Jews two separate events from the one you found and the one that you testified you spoke to Ohlendorf about and was finally taken across the river, the Dnjestr River. Were there two separate transports of Jews?
A Definitely, there were two different matters. I am trying to clarify this all the time, but perhaps I did not express myself quite clearly. May I repeat it? When I travelled to Mogilew I came across, or, overtook, in the territory between the Prut and Dnjestr rivers, a transport escorted by Rumanian military people. Where they went to, I do not know. That they crossed the bridge I doubt very much, because Lipps had already received the order to stop such illegal deportations. That was the one transport. bring the people back from Mogilew to Jampol to their homeland. That is an entirely different matter.
Q Why didn't you put both these instances in your affidavit?
A During the interrogation I told Mr. Wartenberg how I thought of this matter. The first thing I thought of was when touching upon such a question that I saw this transport and did not know what was going on and then when arriving in Mogilew I discussed the matter with Lipps and then he told me -
Q There is no point in going through that again. I asked you the question, why you didn't put it in your affidavit. I want to follow it up. When this affidavit was submitted to you to read before you signed it, why didn't you call Mr. Wartenberg's attention to it then?
A I don't know what I could have corrected on that occasion. I don't see anything that is not clear here.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, may I interrupt just a second, please?
MR. WALTON: Yes, sir. BY THE PRESIDENT: the road and then when you arrived at Mogilew Podolsk, you found out what this transport was all about and then you made efforts to have this transport sent back to Rumanian territory.
when I knew all that was connected to it, I didn't realize this. of refugees and then you didn't see then you didn't see them again. That ended that episode. different group of people? had been expelled by the Rumanians and had been brought across the bridge and already existed in that territory. Jews that you saw? this problem. Mr. Wartenberg told me that I should tell him about it and I told him in the same broad manner as I expressed it here and then he took a few sentences of that statement. and which consisted of roughly of about 1,000 people, came to your attention and then passed out of your view and out of your life and you don't know what eventual fate these 1,000 people met.
A No, I don't know that, Your Honor.
Q Was this in Rumanian territory that you saw these people?
A Yes, that was between, if I may explain this, Your Honor; the border ran along the the Dnjestr River and I overtook these people in the territory between Prut, that is the river Prut and the Dnjestr, which is near Mogilew. In this territory I overtook this carivan. Where they were going to I didn't know. That is why I discussed the matter with Lipps and aksed him what was going on and I then heard what the Rumanians had done previously.
Q But you don't know whatever happened to these thousand people?
Q Well, I think that's where the confusion arose. The impression was gained that you then later saw these 1,000 people elsewhere. never did get into German territory insofar as you know, in German occupied territory? agreement existed between the two armies that across the Dnjestr, which was the border of interest, any traffic was prohibited, any moving of population either way was prohibited, and, in violating this agreement, the Rumanians had used the opportunity of no German troops being there brought those people across the bridge and that was what Lipps found.
Q You say in your affidavit, Witness, we have this statement: "On my arrival at Mogilev-Podolsk, I was told that this transport consisted of Jews who originated from Bessarabia and the Bucovina and had been driven from their homes in order to be left to their fate after having passed the border." Then comes this: "I attempted to get these people together at Mogilew-Podolsk in order to take them abck in a group transport."
A That can be easily misunderstood, I agree, Your Honor. At the moment when I signed it, I did not notice that. to understand it in any other way, isn't that right?
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed. BY MR. WALTON: to get to the Dnjestr River? Did it pass through any Russian cities?
A I cannot say that, Mr. Walton, he would have taken the nearest road.
get to the area of Einsatzkommando 12? that territory. Jews that you know of?
A 10-B?
Q Isn't it a matter of fact that 10-B took 400 Jews out of a transport at Ananjew and shot them?
Q Didn't Sonderkommando 10-B have the duty to guard the approaches to an execution of the Jews, including old men, women and children, six kilometers from Chessan?
A Where?
A Chessan, do you mean? I do not remember that any of our people were in Chessan. I myself was not there and I do not know that in Charnowitz any of our unit were assigned.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Q. Your commanding officer, Alois Pesterer was an efficient officer, wasn't he?
A. Yes, but I don't know how as a subordinate that I can pass judgment on this. I think Herr Ohlendord could have given better judgment on it. He was a soldier, that was my impression.
Q. He would make inspection trips to the subcommandos of his Command some distance from his headquarters, didn't he?
A. Yes, he was on the way quite a lot.
Q. When he was away from his headquarters, whom did he leave in charge?
A. No commando existed practically, because if he visited the subcommando, the commando was divided into several commandos.
Q. Whom did he leave in charge of his office while he was away?
A. I don't know whether he asked anybody in particular, but the next senior officer was Hauptsturmfuehrer Finger.
Q. That name is F-I-N-G-E-R, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Whenever a commando changed its location, who was in charge of the movement?
A. The commando-chief himself.
Q. At what town did you leave the commando in October 1941?
A. In Skadowsk.
Q. Is it not a fact that Persterer introduced you to the whole commando as his deputy at Dueben, and you remained so until you got to Skadowsk?
A. No.
Q. Didn't Persterer like his alcoholic beverages?
A. I didn't notice that.
Q. Isn't it a fact --
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, if that is a charge in the Indictment, I think we will have to exclude it.
MR. WALTON: Unfortunately Sir, this is a basis being laid to show that this man was incapable of performing his duties, and other people had to perform them, and, it is the contention of the Prosecution that this man was his deputy, and we intend to prove it, perhaps, not by this witness, I agree.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Walton. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Isn't it a fact that Persterer was a great many times too drunk to perform his duties, was he not?
A. No. I strongly object to that in the interest of the deceased. And I can assure you that is such a thing had occurred even once, Herr Ohlendorf wouldn't have stood for this, that would have been the end of his career as a commando leader, insofar as I got to know Herr Ohlendorf.
Q. When you left the commando, wasn't your place taken by Finger?
A. As far as I know a new Obersturmfuehrer arrived who was to take over my job.
Q. Will you repeat the answer please, it didn't come through?
A. As far as I know an Obersturmfuehrer arrived, and I assume he took over my job, but I am not certain.
Q. Well, are you certain that Finger didn't take over your job?
A. I would almost like to exclude that possibility, put I am not certain.
Q. Alright. Let's turn to the fifth paragraph of your affidavit, which is in Document Book III-D, page 76 of the English, page 121 of the German, and it is Document NO-4149, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 171.
The part we will discuss, Your Honors, is on page 78 of the English text, and page 124 of the German, paragraph 5. Isn't it a fact that this incident was left out of the first affidavit Mr. Wartenberg drew up for you to sign, and you wrote him an account of this incident, a note, and discussed it on his next interrogation?
A. May I correct this, namely, that so far as this correction is concerned I had made already before the first draft of the affidavit, and in the meantime I remembered this, and I didn't want that one could gain the impression that I tried to keep the matter out or to keep it a secret, that is why on my own I sent it to Mr. Wartenberg.
Q. Why was the number of thirty Jews decided upon for the killing of two German pilots?
A. I beg your pardon. Why?
Q. Why was the actual number of thirty Jews decided upon for the killing of two German pilots?
A. I can not tell you anything about the things that happened there, and the details. Neither can I name the figure I am not certain, I only remember vaguely that it was something like twenty or thirty people that was concerned.
Q. Who decided upon this number?
A. Who finally decided it there I can not say, whether the Obersturmfuehrer Schukert, or just the local commander there who did it. I can not say.
Q. Who gave this order or these orders to Schukert to round up these Jews?
A. If I may go back to your sentence; so far as I know, Schukert received instructions that the case of murdering the two German Army pilots was to be investigated as matter of course, this event which I have described.
Q. That is what I want to know, who gave him these instructions or orders?
A. He could only have gotten them from Persterer.
Q. Isn't it a matter of fact that because Persterer was unable, due to absence, or because of his failing to give these orders, you as his deputy gave the necessary orders to avenge the death of these two pilots?
A. Certainly not.
Q. Did you ever issue any orders that resulted in the execution of Jews?
A. No.
Q. Of Communists?
A. No.
Q. Or of Krimchaks, or Gypsies?
A. I never saw any, and, therefore, had no oppurtunity even if I wanted to.
Q. Did you ever issue any orders of abetting the the execution of Jews, or any undesirables?
A. No, that would not have been my task any more apart from that I didn't know at that time that such general order existed.
Q. Now, I understand that you were awarded the Army War Meritorious Service Cross with swords. What year was this award made?
A. In the year of 1941.
Q. Did you receive this metal after your return from Russia?
A. Unfortunately not. I got it already before, and may I tell you which office awarded it to me. I was awarded this from the office in Brunn, for my work in counter espionage. If you knew the meaning of this merit or this distinction I think you wouldn't regard it as very important.
Q. Were you proud of this metal when you received it?
A. I said already, Mr. Walton, if I may repeat it again, this war meritorious service cross second class in Germany, is of secondary importance for almost every air warden got it who wore his helmet three times during raids at home.
I think there is no special reason for being very proud of then, and may I tell you that afterwards I didn't even wear the ribbon because I was ashamed of it.
Q. Well, I wanted to get that answer, and it took you a little time to give me the facts.
A. I hope I have explained it.
Q. You were promoted to Hauptsturmfuehrer in January 1942, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't your foreign service influence your promotion?
A. I hardly think so. It was new. It was in the course of ---
Q. How often did a promotion occur in the SS, in the officers ranks?
A. There was no general regulation for this.
Q. Were you not seated in the dock when it was testified to here that four years was the normal promotional procedure from one rank to another? One of your co-defendants testified to that effect?
A. I can only tell you, Mr. Walton, that I don't know any directives saying that promotions were to be given within a certain period. I believe that was dependent on individual levels, which depended on the ranks.
Q. would you have received this promotion if you had not had foreign service?
A. No doubt I would have been entitled to this and would have been promoted,
Q. Were you familiar with the directive issued by Himmler himself that no one would be promoted in the SS until he had had foreign service, or front line Service?
A. There was internal instructions for the different units concerned. As to the officers I don't know about that. These other directives for promotion to competent officers I can not answer that.
Q. You never saw this directive from Himmler then?
A. I can not remember.
Q. But it could have existed, so far as you know, is that true?
A. That would have been quite possible. I really can not say. It is quite possible.
Q. Now coming back to your promotion sheet in your personnel records, it seems that you were able to get promoted within three years from a 1st Lt., to a Captain. Don't you think your service in Russia had something to do with this?
A. I already said that at that time it occurs exactly on the same date when my rank was to be assimulated. In that respect, therefore, I would have been promoted automatically on that date.
Q. Well you stated in your direct examination that you were recalled from service in Russia to go to school. Now why would they promote you just to send you to school?
A. It was not done because of that. May I clarify this. Effective from 30 January 1939, I was appointed Police Inspector. My SS rank was assimulated, and I became Obersturmfuehrer; after three years service because of the assimilation regulation I automatically was made Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q. And your service in Russia had nothing to do with it?
A. They need not have had anything to do with it.
Q. Will you explain to the Tribunal the "Action Zeppelin", what it was?
A. The operation "Zeppelin" was to try to recruit volunteers from the Russian PWs who would act in counter intelligence in the East against Russia.
Q. How long were you engaged in this activity?
A. Two or three months.
Q. Finding these people who were willing to engage in this espionage, involved careful screening of the persons, did it not?
A. Yes, that's the reason why people were sent out did know something about counter intelligence end espionage and who had worked in the field. These Investigations could not be done very carefully, or very thoroughly, because in my mission I was limited to judge according to my impression and my experience which I would gain of the individual person I had to pass judgment whether a party would be ready to do this work, and whether he would be suitable for that kind of a task.
Q. Did you everin this screening process discover a Russian prisoner Court No. II, Case No. IX.