Isn't it true that the first consideration of your commando on the arrival at any place was to make a survey to determine the situation with regard to their own security? it, because I have made no experience concerning this, but this does not mean that the general obtaining of information in this survey, as you call it, means an investigation of the whole city, because only in very rare cases we have had enough men to do so. Rumanians were there, is that not true, and by cooperation with your Rumanian Allies, could you not got plenty of men to comb the city? therefore, it was her not the task of the commando to deal with such matters, but it was the task of the Rumanians, so it becomes evident from this report there was a police commander, or police major who was a Rumanian, whose task it was, if there was nobody else to take care of it, that the security and order was maintained in this Rumanian capitol. Chernovitz then, if it was completely under Rumanian territory.
A I could not tell you. According to my observation I regarded it in this manner, that we would be there in preparedness for future actions, and this attitude of mine is being confirmed by the reports of events. states in there that the action of the Rumanians against the Jews was desultory until Sondercommando X-B arrived. However, at this particular time I want to confine our consideration to this one document.
According to your knowledge, did any members of Sondercommando X-B assist in this search for political undesirable elements?
A I didn't hear anything about that, Communists were shot by the command? Walton, I never learned about it at all, and that I am most surprised of this, and I want to exclude, the possibility that they were shot at all, I have stated that he reported to Army group, which was far away, and that there are no deputies of his, and no inspections need be carried out, but that he does not inform his group-chief, Ohlendorf, about it, although two days later after this report to the Army group, the group was informed too, but does not say anything about this in the report. A few days afterwards the group-chief himself was in Chernovitz to carry out inspection, and even on that occasion, we have heard, he was not informed at all about this, and apart from this such a story would be in direct contradiction to the order given by the group-chief of the commando. from Sonderkommando X-B? course. that your commanding officer Persterer sent forward reports that were not true, can we assume that? until around the first of October, some five months. Did he impress you as a man who would do things like that, who would send lying reports forward?
A I must correct this statement first. It was only just over three months, but certainly not five months. Also I was not with him all the time, so it is very hard to judge another person, especially if this problem of this kind is concerned. I only know he was very careful to be able to prove the activities of the commando, because he often complained that his commando was so much in the rear and wasn't committed to action. the commando, is that what you said? means he wanted it committed to action, did he not? to help solve the Jewish question in the East, was it not?
AAt the time I don't know anything about that.
Q I didn't ask you what you know. I said, to prove the worth of the commando, one feature of proving the worth of the commando was to commit it to assist in solving the Jewish question in the East, wasn't it? because I have already said, Mr. Walton, that this order, as it has become known to me now, was not valid for the Rumanian Sovereign Territory, and those are matters which were not known to me at that time. Therefore, it is impossible that he would have reported any activity of this kind to a group, because in that case he would have made a resistance to a superior who would give him another order. I think.
therefore, we can not here argue about his trying to receive an assignment from the Rumanians of this kind, or carrying out such operation if he has orders to the contrary effect. if you saw it?
A I can not say. It is possible.
Q Well, you have seen his signature, have you not? seen many signatures since. Persterer didn't write much. Did your counsel ever show you the photostatic copy of this report?
MR. WALTON: Please, your Honor, could I request that this exhibit be brought into court tomorrow morning for submission to the witness to see if he can identity the signature of his then commanding officer.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will please have the document referred to by Mr. Walton in court tomorrow morning.
MR. WALTON: This is Document NOKW 587, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 92, Mr. Secretary General. BY MR. WALTON:
Q Let's go on a little farther in that. Do you know how far the City of Hodin, which is spelled "H-O-D-I-N" is from Chernovitz?
A No, I am sorry, I don't know. Chernovitz?
Q In your opinion could the name of "Hotin" and "Chotin" be the one and the same place?
A I would think so.,I think it is marked on the maps in one way and then in the other manner. I have tried to find out which locality might have been meant and where it might be found.
Q Let me ask you this. When you arrived at Chernovitz, did you find out that the Teilkommando, or subcommando of Sondercommando X-B was in Chotin? Chernovitz when you arrived?
A I don't know. business to find out approximately where members of your command were?
A No, that is quite impossible. The people receive their orders from the commanding officer. They don't report away from me. I do not keep a list so everybody has to sign when he leaves because - generally were? In other words, when any Teilkommando were sent out. Do you know about that, as there must have been an officer there?
MR. WALTON: Your Honor, I've decided to take up another document.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, this might be the right place for recess. The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30 o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon the Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 19 December 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II.
Military Tribunal No. II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You may begin, Mr. Walton. BY MR. WALTON:
Q Mr. Ruehl, yesterday you stated on direct examination that you were in Chernowitz from approximately the 9th or 10th of July to about the 7th of August, 1941, did you not? any executions here, because this was Rumanian Territory, is that true?
Q Yes. What was the mission of all kommandos of Einsatzgruppe D when they went to Russia? knew at the time. I already said that Persterer made known in Chernowitz and only that is known to me. subunits was to secure the rear areas behind the Wehrmacht in order that the line of supplies should be kept open. You did not know that at the time?
A Yes, that I knew. I said so.
were a member of it.
A I do not understand what you mean. I think we do not really understand each other. I said what Persterer made known to us as the task of the Einsatzkommando and, if I am not mistaken, I began by saying that he informed us that the kommando would have to deal with the security measures in the rear Army territory. kommando at the same time he introduced you as his deputy?
A There are two errors, I am afraid, in one question, Mr. Walton. First of all, he never introduced me as his deputy because I was not his deputy and also I already said yesterday there was no general speech that he made, that I doubted whether he announced the assignment to the Kommando. It wasn't his way to do that. 10-B during the months you were with it in Chernowitz. you no information about it, because I never heard anything about that, because I was only informed about this general order which had to be regarded as a sort of general assignment during the whole time. In how far his assignment had to be carried out in Chernowitz I do not know. I said yesterday that it was my impression that the kommando in Chernowitz was alerted.
Q You were with the kommando in Chernowitz for a month. Now what did the kommando do while it was there and while you were there? up contact with the Russian and the Ukrainian Army and to become acquainted with conditions. That was that I have experienced there. I am sorry that I cannot give you any further information.
Q The translation come through "taking up contact with the Russian and Ukrainian Army." You meant the Rumanian and the Ukrainian.
Q Rumanian, yes. Did Sonderkommando 10-B spend of its time inciting Rumanians to institute Jewish pogroms?
A I don't know anything about it. out a Jewish pogrom?
A That again I certainly don't know anything about. you in Chernowitz during the month of July or August, 1941?
A How many there were during the whole period, I couldn't say if I tried, since individual officers were always on the road dealing with assignments. did Sonderkommando 10-B have in all, from Major Persterer down to the youngest Second Lieutenant, how many did it have in all?
Q How many?
A Just a moment. Seven.
Q Well, were not these seven officers in and out of Chernowitz?
A I wouldn't say that. They were not constantly on the road.
Q That's right. They came in and out of Chernowitz. Did you talk to them when they came to Chernowitz, or to some of them?
A I don't remember having discussed anything with them. I heard about this or the other story from them. In order to make this clear, I could say that, for instance, on one occasion one or two officers were sent off in order to cope with difficulties that had arisen between the Hungarians and the Rumanians; although they were both our allies, they did not like each other very much. Therefore, difficulties arose occasionally and on one occasion -- I remember this particularly -- there was a sugar plant where they were about ready to fight each other.
Q Then you did among yourselves discuss your task, is that correct?
A Noo I wouldn't say that, only special events. Such unusual events, of course, were discussed occasionally; because they were so strange, obviously, that some one heard something here and there.
Q Would you consider the execution an unusual event?
Q Would not it have been discussed among yourselves?
A Yes, I would assume that it would. That is how I gained my knowledge. was doing, if it had done something unusual, didn't you?
A I couldn't say that. to secure the rear areas behind the Wehrmacht in Chernowitz?
A No, Mr. Walton. I said that I was not under the impression that the kommando ever became active at all in Chernowitz, except in this one case which I was informed about, where, on special instruction of the Rumanian Army, the kommando became active.
Q Were you in Chernowitz on the 11th of July, 1941? the English, page 52 of the German. This is Document No_2934, and it is Prosecution's Exhibit 78, Your Honors, I specifically refer to page 49 of the Document Book. Will you indicate, Witness, when you have found the place on page 6 of the original, which is headed, "Finsatzkommando 10-B, Location, Chernowitz." evacuated by the Soviet forces, according to your memory, is that true? no Russians in the place.
Q All right, if there were Russians there, wouldn't there be plenty of work for the kommando?
A I said, Mr. Walton, that I cannot remember having heard about Russians being in Chernowitz at the time.
Q When you got there, wasn't there plenty of work for the men in the kommando to do?
A No, I wouldn't say that.
Q Not much wor? Well, will you tell me what it means in this report when it says, and I quote, "Action against Jews, until the arrival of the Einsatzkommando desultory." That is about three lines from the bottom of the page in my document book.
Q Doesn't that mean that they stirred up these pogroms against the Jews.
A Who?
A I wouldn't conclude that from this, because here it says "action against Jews until arrival of the Einsatzkommando desultory." That means that action was taken against the Jews, but only until the arrival of the kommando.
Q Well, according to my memory, I won't argue, according to my understanding, and I won't argue with you, it seems to me there was very little action against the Jews by the Rumanians or anybody else until the Ensatzkommando got there. All right, did you ever see a Ghetto in Chernowitz? by the Red artillery. Could there have been a Ghetto in a city of 300,000 to 400,000 people?
A It is possible, but I don't know. That is a theoretical question. In a town of such extent, there might have been one. I don't know whether, there was one. However, I did not hear about in in Chernowitz. I would doubt whether there was one, merely for the reason that I myself saw these people walking about freely in the twon and, not only that, they came to our hotel and tried to do business with us.
Q Now, as a matter of fact, wasn't it one of the principal tasks of the kommando to round up these Jews after their Ghetto was destroyed? according to this report, it took better trained and better disciplined German police forces to perform the security tasks in this city, didn't it?
A I don't know why in such a town, which is in a foreign country we should have authority to proceed against forces of this particular state.
Q Now, Mr. Ruehl, we will consider the Document Book II-D, page 37 in the English, page 40, Document No-2950, Prosecution Exhibit 90, and I am specifically interested in the report from Chernowitz that appears on pages 20 and 21 of the original -- that is found on page 39, Your Honors, of the document book. How many of these 1,200 Jews were arrested during the month of August by Sonderkommando 10-B?
A I am not in the position to tell you. I do not think that the Kommando arrested any. performed by Sonderkommando 10-B? mentioned. their interrogations were completed?
A I couldn't give you any information concerning this.
Q All right. This clearing of the area of the Jews was a joint operation by the Rumanians and the Einsatzkommando, wasn't it? document?
killed 682, and then you arrest 50 Communists and kill 16 of them, isn't that a clearing operation?
A I said, Mr. Walton, that I doubt that the kommando even as much as participated to any large extent in this action. correct? after the Wehrmacht had driven the Russians back, is that correct?
A Do you mean the occupied territory, Transnistria, by this? It would be true of that as far as I know, at least. be no territorial changes in war time, except by conquest?
A I don't know whether I understand the gist of your question, but I should like to answer it. As far as I can see, the question it this: Chernowitz and the whole surrounding territory Bukowina up to Setzno, was Rumanian sovereign territory up to 1939 and only for one year came under Russian Sovereignty. Therefore the consequence was that as soon as this territory was reconquered, this was taken over again by the Rumanians as their own territory and was proclaimed as such. This attitude I find confirmed in a report of events, but I don't know the number, but it is one in which it says that Chernowitz and Bukowina are Rumanian sovereign territory and that it had been proclaimed Rumanian sovereign territory. What International legal conditions are concerned in this, I do not know.
territory, were these 1200 arrested Jews Rumanian Jews or Russian Jews? been Rumanian. were they Russians or Rumanians?
AAgain I could say yes or no. I don't know. They might have been people who had been Rumanian citizen, and regained their Rumanian citizenship automatically. They may also be people who during the Russian occupation arrived from Russia as original Russian citizens, and remained Russians citizens. I could not tell you even if I tried. any civilians of conquered and occupied territories, didn't they?
A I am sorry, I don't quite understand this question. Rumanians, didn't they have the rights usually afforded civilian populations in conquered territories?
A I don't know. I don't know how far you could call Rumanian territory which again comes under the Rumanian sovereignty, occupied territory. would they not? All 682 of them, wouldn't they? were shot?
A I don't know anything about it.
Q Allright, let's turn in the same document book to page 41 of the English, Page 43 of the German, which is Document 4135, on page 42, Your Honors, and, I specifically refer, witness, to that report of Einsatzcommando 10-B, which occurs on page 3 of the original.
Now in this report it states that there was a Vorkommando at Chotin. Have you found that place where it says that? Where it says, "Location Chernovitz, Vorcommando at Chotin."? Chotin?
A I could not tell you. In my opinion it is misleading that a Vorkommando was stationed in Chotin, for I was not informed that a subcommando was ever stationed there.
Q Do you know a man by the name of Robert Barth? I'll refresh your memory -
Q -- he was a Hauptscharfuehrer in Sonderkommando 10-B? Do you know him? Vorkommando in Chotin. Do you deny that?
A Yes, I certainly want to deny that. I never even saw Chotin, and I certainly was never there with any Vorkommando. you certain instances of your behavior while in Chotin. Do you deny that you were the highest-ranking officer with this Vorkommando also? answer, Mr. Walton. I have stated and I am stating again explicitly that I have never even seen Chotin. I certainly never was there, and certainly not with a Vorkommando. I can not tell you more. correct, according to your testimony. Now as early as the 14th or 15th of July, according to this document, Commando 10-B was being criticized because its measures had not been severe enough.
What did Commando 10-B do to increase its measures against the Jews?
A I said yesterday, Mr. Walton, and if you now refer to this paragraph, that the following directive were given to 10-B. Incidentally, a criticism that nothing much was carried out is not even mentioned. I would like to correct that. If you are referring now to this where it states: "Directives are given to 10-B" I can only repeat what I said yesterday, that this order if it arrived at the Commando, was not known to me, and that I did not observe any effect of such an order. first intellectual persons, intellectually leading persons quoted in the report? Was it always the task of the Commando to execute these people first?
A. I don't know. intelligentsia, such as a lawyer, a rabbi, or teacher, had his life spared by the Sonderkommando 10-B in spite of the fact that he belonged to the intelligentsia?
A I didn't know the prerequisite for this, namely that there was such an order to this effect, but I can not say -I really can not say I know about such an order. where one of the intelligentsia had his life spared by Sonderkommando 10-B. Now is your answer to that yes, or no? actually carried out, and that I would know something to that effect and, that, therefore, I can not tell you because, as I say, I didn't know the prerequisite and I didn't even interest myself in these matters, and, therefore, I am not able to answer this question.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, that question is a little bit tricky. Not that you intended it to be so, of course. That question is a little bit like asking, have you stopped beating your wife, sir? If he says, yes, it means that he had been beating her, and if he said no, he is still beating her.
MR. WALTON: I withdraw the question, Your Honor. BY MR. WALTON: accused of setting fire to some houses?
A No, I have not heard anything about it. Where was this supposed to have happened? Jews in Chotin chased them over the ruins and shot at them? I have already told you, that I never even saw Chotin. I never entered the town of Hotin. Therefore, it obviates every other question. or Hotin. I am well aware that you say that you were never there, if so, all you need to do is to answer, yes or no. You already explained why you answered, yes or no. In Chotin didn't you with your own hands plus two drivers set fire to a Jewish synagogue?
Q Do you know how long this Teilkommando was at Chotin?
A No. I could not tell you. I have said that I don't even remember a subcommando having been sent there.
Q Did you ever hear of anybody being killed in Chotin? No. 2950, on page 39 of the same document book you hold in the English, page 40 of the German, in that paragraph where it says: "In the area of Chernovitz, Chotin has been bypassed, whereby 150 Jews and Communists have been liquidated." Did you ever hear of any Jews being liquidated in Chotin or Hotin?
A No, Mr. Walton, I can only repeat what I said to Mr. Wartenberg in my first or second interrogation - I don't know when it was - that I don't even remember the name of Hotin. Hotin does not mean anything to me at all. round up Russian Nationals, such as Jews, Communists and other asocial people while you were with it? departmental chiefs made use of Russian confidential agents, in order to deal with their tasks.
Q Did you ever see a confidential agent? the commander himself received civilians as visitors, and among those there were a number of Jews as well, and he discussed matters with them. confidential agents for their services? salary, or whether they were paid a stated sum for each denunciation they made to your commander?
A They certainly didn't receive a monthly salary, because I would have known about it, it would have gone through my office, unless, of course, the commanding officer had a fund for this purpose, especially at his disposal, but I don't know anything about that.
that are mentioned in this report on page 43 of the English and on page 3 of Document NO*4135, were these denunciations by these confidential agents sufficient to sign a man's death warrant?
A I don't know at the moment, Mr. Walton, what you are referring to.
Q. All right, let's go almost to the end of document 4135. According to this report, and I quote: "10-B finished its tasks at Chotin. Intellectually leading persons from the Soviet Party and public life, Jewish agitators, teachers,lawyers, rabbis were apprehended with the help of Ukrainian confidential agents in the course of several raids and treated accordingly." Now I ask you , was the denounciation by these confidential agents sufficient for Sonderkommando 10-B to issue a death warrant for this man or these men?
A. Such a question you cannot expect me to answer, Mr. Walton. How could I answer such a question? I never carried out any investigation in such cases. Therefore, I could not if I tried tell you anything about the investigations.
Q. Well, you stated that there is reason you supposed that confidential agents were being sent out because you used to see them in the commander's office. Now I am trying to inquire into just how much you know about these visits to your commando. If you don't know, all you need to do is say you don't know, but let me caution you that I am asking the questions and not you. Let's turn now to Document book III-D, page 24 of the English, page 46 of the German, which is Document 2840. During the month of August where was the commando stationed?
A. As of 7 August in Mogilew-Podolsk.
Q. Were you with the Commando during this time?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who it was that escorted these 6,000 Jews back to Rumanian territory, and had the argument with the Rumanian bridge commander?
A. First Lt. Lipps had the order to take them back, and I am not taking for granted that these figures here are correct.
Q. Do you know whether these Jews wanted to return to MogilewPodolsk and objected to returning to their homes in Rumanian territory?
A. No, so far as I was informed, they welcomed the idea that they should be able to return to their homes, and they would have a better prospect there than in the destroyed war territory.
Q. Now according to this report the Jews were collected in three collecting camps. Who established these camps?
A. I don't know what these camps looked like. I have not seen them, and I don't know anything about it, but I would assume that they were individual groups, which were quite large. Whether the establishment of these camps had been ordered or whether the people collected there themselves in order to support each other, that I don't know.
Q. Who put these Jews to work clearing the streets?
A. I could not tell you, I think it was probably the Ukrainian self-administration, who caused the work to be carried out.
Q. Who paid them?
A. That also I don't know, but I hardly think that this kind of work was actually paid for. My impression about the work which I had done in Russia, was that it was not customary to pay, because they were emergency laborers who I think were not paid. I could not , of course, tell you any exact details about it.
Q. Could these Jews ever refuse to do this work?
A. I don't know whether they were threatened with force and if so, how.
Q. What would have happened to a Jew if he had refused to work when ordered to do so by the Germans?
A. I could only give you the same answer again, that I have no personal knowledge concerning this.
Q. All right. Let's move on then to Document Book II-B, page 7 of the English, Your Honors, page 5 of the German, Document 2837, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 58.
THE PRESIDENT: What page is that?
MR. WALTON: Seven.