Q. The second membership to an organization declared criminal is that you were a member of Office IV of the RSH... Here also the period after the first of September 1939 is the only period we are concerned with. Is the assumption correct? *ere you a member of Office IV of the RSH.. at that time?
A. No.
Q. That is the end of my questioning, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: any defense counsel desire to cross-examine?
You may begin, Mr. Walton. BY MR. *---*:
Q. May at please the Tribunal I have, before I begin, one request which I should like them to grant. It appears that the regular member of our staff whose duty it is to assist the Prosecution in handing document books to the defendant is not here. However, I notice that another member of our staff assigned to me, a German-speaking stenographer, is in the audience. I'd appreciate it if the Tribunal would instruct the Marshal to let her pass to the floor of the Courtroom after the recess so that she might assist me in handling the books.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will please see that that is done during the recess period. BY MR. *---*:
Q. To recapitulate and to get it clear in our minds, I should like to take you back over your testimony concerning your membership in certain organizations. You have testified that you joined the Nazi Party on 1 December 1930, have you hot?
A. Yes.
Q. And on 1 October 1932 you became member of the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you requested your transfer to the SS, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And in September 1933 you became a member of the Gestapo, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was this a voluntary act on your part to become a member of the Gestapo?
A. without a doubt I did not need to obey the order which I received.
Q. I don't think that that answer is responsive.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly it is. It is very responsive.
Q. At least I didn't get the connection.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he wasn't required to respond in other words, he could have refused.
Q. If that is the answer, it is clear to me now. You state that you could have refused to join the Gestapo at the time you received that order?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Nov; you continued to belong to the SS, the Nazi Party, and the Gestapo on 1 September 1939, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you made no effort to sever your connection with any of these organizations on that day, or since, have you?
A. Yes, I said so. May I distinguish between the following. First, the SS membership, second, membership in the Gestapo. As far as SS membership is concerned I think I have already made clear that it was the automatic result of my other promotion, thus it was not an independent action which I could have given up independently. As far as membership in the Gestapo is concerned I can only say that already on the first day of the for I reported to the Army or rather asked for my release to join the Army; that in the spring of 1940 I repeated that; that in both cases it was rejected; and then there were general directives that it was not possible to get out and that releases from the Army were forbidden.
Q. Now, according to your SS personnel file it shows that you have, or had, the rank in the Reserve Wehrmacht of Obergefreiter or private first class, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And at the time that you made those requests you were in the SS a 1st Lieutenant or Obersturmfuehrer, were you not?
A. May I correct? When I made the first application on the first day of the War I was a 2nd Lieutenant but I guess that is not important.
Q. At least you were an officer in the SS. If your request had been granted what rank would you have had in the Wehrmacht if you had been given service?
A. Of course I would have gotten the rank of private first class which I had achieved thus far in the Army.
Q. So it was quite a disadvantage for you to volunteer for service in the Army, wasn't it?
A. I wouldn't have considered it as such because these are two completely different matters.
Q. A least the pay would have been much less as private first class than as 2nd Lieutenant, wouldn't it?
A. May I point our, Mr. Walton, that at that time I was not yet active in the operational area and did not yet got any pay as 1st or 2nd Lieutenant and, therefore, I wouldn't have had any disadvantage.
Q. Well, you got paid for what you did based oh your rank, didn't you?
A. According to the usual regulations this would have continued. I wouldn't have had any disadvantage.
Q. Your pay would have been the same as private first class in the Wehrmacht as it would have been as 2nd Lieutenant in the SS? Is that what you say?
A. Yes.
Q. You were convinced, however, that you could render more valuable service to the Reich as an SS officer than as an ordinary soldier, were you not?
A. Repeat the question please.
Q. You were convinced that you could render more valuable service to the Reich as an SS officer rather than as a line soldier, were you not?
A. No, I think Mr. Walton, I have said very clearly that I personally did not think it was correct that a young able-bodied man sits at home and that old people are sent to the front. This reason alone made me decided to report to the Army. I was brought up that way. My father was an officer. My brother was an officer. And I felt ashamed to sit at home by myself.
Q. Now can you tell the approximate date in May of 1941, that you actually reported to duty with the Einsatzgruppen?
A. I don't know how I am to understand this question. I didn't report. Thus the question isn't quite correct.
Q. All right. I will rephrase the question. Will you state the approximate day in May 1941 that you arrived in Pretzsch?
A. I cannot give you the exact date but as far as I recall it was the middle of May.
Q. Did you perform any other service in Pretzsch than with the Einsatzgruppen?
A. No.
Q. Then you reported for duty with the Einsatzgruppen some time around the middle of May 1941, did you not?
A. Yes, but on the basis of the experiences I have made I must object to the word "melden" in German which has two meanings. One meaning is to report to an agency where ordered to appear. Another meaning is that I voluntarily reported there and I would like to be sure that the matter is clear.
Q. That is all right. All we want to know is the approximate date you got to Pretzsch and the approximate date you reported for duties with the Einsatzgruppen, that you entered upon your service with the Einsatzgruppen. That is all. It does not connote how you got there or how you were sent there. I merely want to know the fact of when you started your service with the Einsatzgruppen. Do we understand each other.
A. But just to be quite careful I would like to correct one more thing. because at that time Einsatzgruppe D did not yet exist. Einsatzgruppe D was not set up until we got to Dueben and that was the beginning of June. As far as I remember, until that date we were in Pretzsch without knowing at all what is the matter and without any Einsatzgruppen being formed.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will not be in recess for 15 minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. LINCK: Dr. Linck for the defendant Ruehl.
If Mr. Walton will permit me to disturb him for a few minutes for cross-examination in order to establish the right connection again, my attention has just been drawn to the fact that in the translation, the English translation, the answers upon the questions about the pay of a corporal in the Wehrmacht or Sturmfuehrer in the SS was not quite clearly expressed to the effect namely that it is always the same pay. That is the official pay, the pay that officials receive, the corresponding payment, that is, no matter what unit or what rank be would have had. I only wanted to establish this.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Your statement is sufficient, Dr. Linck. BY DR. WALTON:
Q. Mr. Ruehl, prior to the afternoon recess we had arrived in Pretsch, and Dueben, where a collection of police members and others was made, and where later on the Einsatzgruppen were formed. In your direct examination, if my memory is correct, you testified that you first assumed, or at least guessed, that you were being assembled for an action for the invasion of England. However, at a later time when you began to receive lectures on Russia, you felt that the action of this group would be directed toward Russia. Am I right so far? wasn't an actual lecture in classes, but it was just a matter of two or three lectures concerning Russia, its people, and its country.
Q. At that time you stated, I believe, that the Chief of the Security Police and the SD appeared before the group of men which later became Einsatzgruppen, and told them of the Fuehrer Order. Did I understand you to say that?
A. No.
Q. I will ask you this question, did you see Heydrich in Dueben or Pretsch while you were there?
Q Do you know for what purpose Heydrich was there?
A Heydrich? For what purpose I could not say. All I know is that he appeared in front of the men and officers who had collected there, and he took leave of these people before they were assigned. This is what happened, and it happened in the manner in which I related it.
Q I am sorry, Mr. Ruehl, I didn't quite understand two words of the translation. Heydrich appeared before a formation of all personnel who were assembled? satzgruppen personnel; what did he generally speak of? That is what I didn't get on the translation.
A I cannot express it in another way. I can only say it was a general farewell, took leave of us. During which he said that, of course, we would be confronted with heavy tasks and he appealed to our sense of duty, and he said that he requested that we would be obedient there and we would do our duty in the assignment. I cannot give you the exact wording, but that was the general tenor he was talking about.
Q Did you assume from Heydrich's remarks that the Einsatzgruppen and their subunits would have to exterminate people? now that you had not heard of the Fuehrer Order, is that correct?
Q And that the first time that you heard of it was in Chernowitz? Persterer gave me the Fuehrer Order in the wording which I have mentioned before.
out this Fuehrer Order and exterminate Jews and gypsies, and Communists, when Persterer first mentioned it to you?
A I said, Mr. Walton, that he did not mention this at all. there was a Fuehrer Order to exterminate these people, didn't you? That is, the remarks he made in Chernowitz?
Q All right, I will ask you a question. When did you first hear of the Fuehrer Order for the extermination of Jews, gypsies and other racial undesirables, when was the first time that you heard of it? when I was transferred back, and on my return at the beginning of October, I reported to Nikolaev, and there I learned that a few days ago the Reichsfuehrer had been there and had proclaimed an order to the effect that all Jews should be executed, but I really cannot remember having heard about the same, about gypsies or other groups. as an active member of Sonderkommando 10b you never heard the Fuehrer Order at all? the first units of an Einsatzgruppe committed to action, that is, first units of Einsatzgruppe D committed to action, have you not?
A For an action? I would not like to call it that, but Kommando 10b was the first one, as far as I can judge it, which was assigned to its own garrison, apart, of course, from their unit.
Q You didn't make that qualification in your interrogation of 8 May 1947. Can you remember generally what your remarks were on that day? lowing concerning this examination, that there was no opportunity to formulate it in any really understandable manner, that such possibility was altogether excluded.
was one of the first committed to security actions in Chernowitz?
A No. All I would like to say is, I would like to clarify this in order to exclude any misunderstandings as far as I know the kommando was the first one which received an order for their actual assignment, that is, they received a locality garrison which was assigned to them, but what particular activity was connected with it I cannot say. officer on the staff of Alois Persterer who was the commanding officer of Sonderkommando 10b is that correct? rations, military training, personnel matters and motor vehicle supply, is that correct?
A Yes. Again I would like to make the limitation. military training was practically only valid for the first time while we were in Dueben, that is during this military training which only took one day in the vicinity of Chernowitz, as I already mentioned.
Q But the other duties that I have outlined are generally correct?
Q what was the total strength in men of Sonderkommando 10b? billeting or food rations or personnel matters, motor vehicle supply; could you act for Alois Persterer in these matters? motor vehicles or to requisition gasoline or to requisition personnel or food?
A. No, that certainly was not the case and such situations never arose, and anyway, I do not know anything about such a situation, because our vehicles and our fuels we received on request from the unit or the agency to which we belonged, or even, sometimes, from the group itself.
Q All right. Once these were issued to you, these motor vehicles, did they come under your charge?
A You mean the vehicles?
central motor pool and dispatch them cut as needed, or did you permanently assign them to teilkommandos?
A No. From the very beginning the vehicles were distributed by the commando leader to the subcommandos or, at least, at that time there were no teilkommandos yet and it was only my task that repairs were made, when it was reported to me by a driver that the vehicles needed repair, then it was my task to see to it in case he needed spare parts that I would supply these natters. issued to Sonderkommando 10B, to see that that truck was present for duty, at all times it was in mechanical running condition--whose responsibility was it?
A The driver's.
Q Now, to whom was this driver responsible? to his platoon officer and these vehicles which were not part of a platoon, as for instance tanks and first aid vehicles, these vehicles necessary for the entire commando, the drivers of those vehicles also were responsible to the commando leader, without the slightest doubt, to see to it that their vehicles were in working order.
Q Well, as the motor officer's of the commando leader, weren't they responsible to the commando leader through you? that question. leader which was Major Persterer, You, as a motor officer of the commando leader were not these drivers responsible to him through you as the motor officer?
A I do not know, Mr. Walten. I don't know how you promoted me to a motor officer. I was no expert for vehicles or for mechanic.
I could only go into action when the vehicle needed repair and when information to this effect was received that this or the other spare part was needed which I--whereupon had myself informed whether this part was actually needed and then I asked it from the technical officer of the group. needed a vehicle. They sent into the headquarters of Sonderkommando 10B and said, "We request a vehicle for a certain purpose," and which was a normal military purpose. Who was it that had the responsibility a certain period of time. Who was it that dispatched this vehicle at 10 kilometers? by the commanding officer as we had no reserve vehicles, In order to explain this situation to you, I would like to say that we were so badly equipped when we were assigned that we had great shortages, that we lost a number of vehicles as early as Chernowitz, and that we had no reserve parts, therefore, spare parts would have to be taken from other vehicles also -
Q Evidently I do not make myself clear. The teilkommando 10 kilometers away needs a vehicle. Standing outside of your particular office is a motor truck which is not at the moment being used which belongs to another platoon of the commando. Who would have the responsibility to send this truck 10 kilometers for the use of this teilkommando that needed it? apart from the kitchen truck and the tank truck which were constantly needed for general purposes, we had no such vehicles. Otherwise, in order to deal with your example, it would have been the commanding officer whose task it would be to either permanently or temporarily allocate such vehicles.
the ranking officer in the immediate vicinity, could you have dispatched that vehicle? man who wanted the vehicle and the man to who it had been allocated and those two people would have had to discuss this matter, and I could not have decided upon it because those leaders had the same service rank as I if not a higher one.
Q Then you couldn't issue any orders concerning vehicles even if Persterer was away from his headquarters could you?
A No. About the assignment of vehicles, I could not pass any decisions. for approximately one day. Let us suppose that General Ohlendorf sent military and humane manner. Would that have been your task to have distributed that information to every one of the 85 members of Sonderkommando 10B?
A What instructions? tions must be carried out in a military and humane manner. Would it have been your task to have disseminated that order to all members of the commando to have disseminated that order to all members of the commando us the administrative officer? the Commanding officer was away one a five-day trip and this order had to be handled by someone, who was the man to handle it?
at all. I believe, however, that I have heard that the group officer gave this order from the very beginning.
beginning?
Q Where did you first hear this order?
A I don't know. I couldn't say in detail and certainly not in this concrete form. I can only know that Persterer said at the, time that the Gruppenfuehrer leader attached great importance to this and that all preparations would have to be made.
Q Was this before you reached Chernowitz?
Q Was this in Chernowitz? leader that executions should be carried out in a humane manner according to the wishes of the group chief--you know that that order was given? he did so in connection with this execution in Chernowitz but I really could not say in detail. nothing to do with execution, just routine order, and Persterer was not at his headquarters. I want to know the name of the man whose duty it was to disseminate this order to the 85 members of the Sonderkommando?
Q Well, if it had happened? given to the next senior ranking officer.
Q Would that have been you? Persterer, to whom would it have been given then?
whom it would be given. There were five untersturmfuehrer with their various tasks.
Q were you an untersturmfuehrer there Chernowitz?
A No. I was Obersturmfuehrer. in Persterer's headquarters?
Q And who was the next?
A I can't remember just now whether it was Obersturmfuehrer Barth or myself, both is possible. the headquarters?
Q. Yes, at the most, the third.
A. Of course, apart from the commanding officer.
THE PRESIDENT: When you say at the most, the third ranking officer, you mean that you could not have been second or first,
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, it could not have been.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, I think you misunderstood the way I put it when you tell us that you were the third ranking officer at the most, you lean by it that you could not have been the second and you could not have been the first.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is what I mean.
Q. (BY Mr. MAYER): Suppose then that an order came down which must be sent to all units of Sonderkommando 10-B and you were the only officer in the headquarters, would you have then Passed this order on?
A. I believe not, because such an order can always wait until the commanding officer is present himself.
Q. Suppose the order was addressed by General Ohlendorf to the officers and men of Sonderkommando 10-B. Wouldn't that have given you, as the only officer present, the authority to disseminate this order to Sonderkommando 10-B?
A. First of all, such an order was never given and secondly, I do not understand why I should have passed it on or make it known.
Q. All right, as the only officer present in headquarters?
A. This actually never happened.
Q. And the mail clerk opened this order, as he was supposed to do, wouldn't he refer this order to you, that came in the mail, as the only officer present?
A. I don't think, Mr. Walton that the clerk in the orderly room would have dared to open such a letter which was addressed to an officer.
Q. Well, orders are supposed to be obeyed, are they not?
A. Certainly.
Q. Yes, and when they have come to a unit, the only way they can be obeyed is for a man to know of them?
A. Yes.
Q. And if the commanding officer was away, it would be somebody's task to see that this order was given to the people who were to obey it, wouldn't he?
A. If such an order had been received, Yes, that would have been the task of the next ranking officer, that is, the Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q. Now we are making some progress. If you were the only Obersturmfuehrer in the Headquarters and that order was called to your attention, wouldn't you have seen that it was carried out as the ranking officer there?
A. I can't --
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, Mr. Walton is putting a very simple thing and it is simply this: If an order comes through addressed to all officers and all members of the kommando and you happened to be the only officer in the headquarters, you would naturally distribute the order. There is nothing complicated or difficult about that.
THE WITNESS: If it is a vent urgent order which has to be announced immediately, and there is no other officer present, I, of course, as an officer would have announced this order,
Q. That is the answer I have been trying to get for five minutes.
A. I am sorry I misunderstood you, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. And then we can assume that the possibility existed for You to be the deputy of the commanding officer, is that correct?
A. Hardly, Mr, Walton, because I have already said, I have already stated the subordination relationship. I have said that I was the third man, excluding the commanding officer and that only in case the others would not have been there they would have come to see me, and even then it is always the matter of content of the matter, what it is all about. If it does not concern my own authority then, of course, it would not have interested me at all, but it would have been sent to the expert dealing with such things. However, this situation never came about.
Q. The question did not go to the probability of your acting for the commanding officer. The question was: "did not the possibility exist whereby you could have in certain circumstances acted as the deputy of the commanding office, namely, the example which we have discussed?
A. I would not like to all this the deputy of the commanding officer or a representative of the commanding officer, because that would mean an internal procedure.
Q. Witness, your answer is not responsive. Answer yes, or no. Did or did not the possibility exist under certain circumstances where you could have acted as the representative of the commanding officer, answer that yes or no.
A. I would like to answer in the negative to this very general question.
Q. Then the possibility never existed where you could ever be a representative of your commanding officer?
A. Yes.
Q. What about your direct examination in your treatment of General Ohlendorf's order concerning the transport of the Jews when you stated that the Obersturmfuehrer Finger or Lipps, I don't know which one, was with the News, Persterer was away and you took it upon yourself to go back to General Ohlendorf's headquarters and consult with him a second time, concerning the transport of these Jews to Rumanian territory. Weren't you acting as a deputy of your commanding officer there?
A. No, I would not like to regard it as such for this trip, Mr. Walton, the specific order by the commander had existed, which had appointed me to accompany this man and then come back. This could not be carried out and thus an emergency situation arose which I have commented on. In compliance with this order, I went to the Group Chief in order to explain to his the emergency situation which had arisen and that the order could not be carried out.
Q. You do not think at that time that you acted as a deputy of Persterer When you treated with General Ohlendorf concerning the new development in order which he had given about these Jews.
You do not consider that. you were the Deputy then?
A. No.
Q. That is all.
A. I must add. Every officer would have done that.
Q. Well, let's turn to Document Book II D, page 45 of the English, page 48 of the German. This is Document NOKW 587, Prosecution Exhibit 92. Mr. Ruehl, how large was Chernowitz, how large a town.
A. I couldn't say, I did not really get to know Chernowitz very well.
Q. Could you estimate from what you saw there approximately how many people lived there in normal times?
A. That is difficult to estimate, because I did not really got to know the town and its extensions, but it is possible that 200,000 300,000, 400,000 people lived there, within this range I think.
Q. Well, it was a fairly large city, that is want I want. It certainly --
A. Fairly large, yes.
Q. It certainly did not come in the classification of village or small town. It was a large city.
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Now, according to this report, to accomplish the task of searching for and I Quote, "Politically suspected elements" in this town, it took all the personnel of the Sonderkommando to make this search, didn't it?
A. You start from that point that what it says here in this report is correct. Whether it is accurate I do not know, but even if we take it for granted that it is correct, I don't see that with the men at the disposal of the kommando it would have been absolutely impossible to even approach a proper search of a town in two or three day, as it says in this document.
Q. All right, was not this the general procedure on the first arrival of a kommando in a town to search out the politically suspected elements in order to guarantee your own security.
Wasn't this the usual procedure when a kommando first came to a town?
A. No, I wouldn't go so far as to say that in any war. I made not such observations.
Q. Well, if the security was the first requisite of any military unit in the field, as a matter of spending operating procedure was not the security the first thing taken care of on the arrival at a new territory or a new area?
A. This area had already been passed by the frontal units and as it becomes evident from the reports all these elements had already escaped and only returned after a short while in order to work there, I can't really say that I over observed that any of these villages and localities were searched. This may be due to the fact that in the period after this, we arrived at territories where kommandos had been active before us.
Q. I believe you stated that these elements had escaped and returned. Was this the only town in your experience where these politically undesirable elements came back?
A. I think either I have not expressed myself very well or we misunderstood each other because this is not what I said. What I wished to say -- I did not speak about Chernowitz but generally about things mentioned in these reports. I assumed that we were speaking about this question generally.
Q. That's right, generally. You stated that in this particular time or, at least, that's the way the translation came through, that on the approach of the Wehrmacht or certainly on the approach of the German forces these people had escaped you said and later returned. undesirable elements first left and later cane back in your experience?
A. I could not even say that of Chernowitz. From my own knowledge.