which it was stated in every application for promotion. I personally have nothing to object against these facts.
Q All right. Now then, we come to the crucial sentence. "During the advance, in the summer of 1942, SS-Hauptfuehrer von Radetzky was put in command of a 'Teilkommando'. Radetzky's general behavior is a soldierly one; he has purpose of mind and is sure of himself." Does this paragraph represent facts or not? I can only clarify this paragraph if I find someone who conforms this for me. If I now say it, that I did not command a Teilkommando, but that I was a liaison officer with the Second Army and with the Second Hungarian Army during the period covered, then it is testimony against testimony, and the document is in any case the one to be believed, Therefore, I ask for permission to be able to clarify this thoroughly. not authentic, or in any way not worthy, falsified, or in any way not worthy of belief. A piece of paper means nothing to the Tribunal just because it is a piece of paper, but if the contents of that of paper appeal to one's common sense and logic, coincide with other facts and dovetail into into a general picture of credibility and authenticity, then the documents naturally is accepted at its face value. Now, to sum it up, what do you say this paragraph represents a mistake, an error, or deliberate falsification? error with a member of Einsatzgruppe C who knows about my activity exactly.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I have no further questions at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until two o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1400hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1405 hours, 17 December 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. KRAUSE: Your Honor, I am speaking for the defendant, Haensch, and I ask that the defendant, Haensch, be excused tomorrow all day from attendance in court so that the final work on the document books may be concluded with him.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant, Haensch, will be excused from attendance in court all day tomorrow so that he may work on his document book. Dr. Ratz, do you have any further questioning of your client?
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I have no further questions, but I have a witness. This witness arrived only yesterday afternoon, and I could not inform the prosecution of it in time, but as far as I know from a discussion with Mr. Hochwald, he has no objection to this.
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, there is no objection to the calling of the witness. I might ask that I may be permitted to send for the document book into which the affidavit of the witness is inserted.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, we have just one question which doesn't have much to do with the issue at all, but which really arises out of a curiosity. You have indicated that during your service in Russia that you had certain tasks to perform, and one of them was to investigate into, examine, and make reports on the culture, the religion, and the theaters in Russia. Were you spending time in the theaters, seeing operas, watching melodrama on the stage --- what do you mean "investigating the theater"?
A. Your Honor, the word "theather", I only used in order to explain my expression, "cultural questions". I remembered subconsciously an action by the Sixth Army, a performance which they had permitted for the troops, where soldiers should visit good theaters and where old Russian or Ukranian plays, which were not allowed to be performed during the Soviet government, were now performed again.
Q. Well, were the theaters operating in this active zone for the civilian population?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. And did you make reports on the different performances?
A. No, Your Honor, I did not do that.
Q. You don't want to convey the impression that you were a dramatic critic during the war in Russia, do you?
A. No, I don't want to give that impression at all, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENTS: Very well, The defendant may be returned to the defendant's box and the witness who is now in waiting will be brought in.
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, you name is what?
A. Gustav Kraege.
Q. Where were you born?
A. On 17 May 1907.
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Goslar.
Q. Have you ever been a member of the NSDAP or the SS?
A. No.
Q. Where were you in May 1941 -- where were you active?
A. In May 1941 I was with the Gestapo in Hildesheim.
Q. Were you recalled from there?
A. Yes.
Q. Where to?
A. I wasordered to go to Schmiedeberg at the time.
Q. Did you know why you were sent there?
A. No. I had no idea.
Q. What happened to you in Schmiedeberg?
A. In Schmiedeberg after some time I was assigned to a commando which was later called SK 4a, Sonderkommando 4a,
Q. Were you given a uniform to wear?
A. Yes, because of my rating, I was given an SD uniform, and I had the rank of a Scharfuehrer.
Q. Were you accepted in the SD, or did you have to -
A. No, this did not happen.
Q. You said that you were assigned to the unit later, called SK 4a?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your work in the SK 4a?
A. Throughout the entire assignment I was working in the office of the Sk 4a in the orderly room.
Q. You said, throughout your assignment, how long did this last?
A. That was from June 1941 until March 1942 except for the time from the end of September until the beginning of January. During that time I was ill and was in the hospital and wason recreational leave at home.
Q. You said you were in the orderly room of the SK 4a as a clerk. What kind of work was done in the orderly room?
A. In the orderly room they dealt with all documents which came in and handed them on, forwarded, and registered, and so forth, field post, and so forth.
Q. Apart from the general orderly room, was there any special administrative office in the SK 4a?
A. Yes, such an office was in the SK 4a.
Q. What did the general administration office deal with?
A. We got our pay from this office and as far as I know, this office looked after the clothing and the supplies for the commando.
Q. Do you know who looked after the ammunition of the commando?
A. I don't know. I assume the administrative office did this.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the top secret matters the SK 4a dealt with?
A. No, I had nothing to do with this, and I never saw them.
Q. Who dealt with this, and where were the secret matters kept?
A. Inasfar as I know, these secret matters, these top secret matters, were kept by the chief himself in his room.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ratz, will you please refer us to the document book in which his affidavit appars, so we may be looking at it?
DR. RATZ: An affidavit was made by the witness, Kraege, --
MR. HOCHWALD: Your Honors, this is in Document Book IIIC, on page 30 of the English, No. 4765, Prosecution Exhibit 137.
PRESIDENT: IIIC?
MR. HOCHWALD: IIIC, that is right.
PRESIDENT: Page number?
MR. HOCHWALD: Page number 30. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Where were the secret matters kept in the SK 4A?
A. Inasfar as I know, these top secret matters were kept by the chief himself in a special box.
Q. Was this special box open, and could you look at it, or was it locked?
A. No. This box was secured by locks and was in the room of the chief.
Q. Who was Chief of Sonderkommando 4A while you were there?
A. When I belonged to this commando, Standartenfuehrer Blobel was in charge of this commando.
Q. Do you know who was Blobel's deputy?
A. No. I know nothing about a deputy of Blobel's. I never heard of a deputy.
Q. Do you know whether Herr von Radetzky was ever Blobel's deputy?
A. As far as I know, Herr von Radetzky could never have been deputy of the chief. I know nothing about it.
Q. Why could Herr von Radetzky not have been deputy to the chief?
A. As far as I know, Herr von Radetzky -
MR. HOCHWALD: Just a minute. If the Tribunal please, this question is inadmissible. If the witness has said he has no knowledge of a deputy of Blobel, I do think he cannot testify to the fact why Radetzky could not hove been the deputy.
PRESIDENT: Isn't that correct reasoning, Dr. Ratz?
DR. RATZ: I believe that the witness as a member of the orderly room can testify why Radetzky could not have been deputy.
MR. HOCHWALD: That would have been only possible if the witness would have been called here as on expert on matters of military organization in the Einsatzgruppe, but according to his position as a minor employee in the office, this question seems to be inappropriate to be put to this witness.
PRESIDENT: Well. Dr. Ratz, if you can qualify him as on expert in the field or with definite knowledge of the table of organization, showing a familiarity with the qualifications required, and a competence needed, then the question might be in order. He certainly can testify as to what he saw von Radetzky do, and then it will be up to the Tribunal to determine from those activities, whether he was or was not deputizing for the absent company commander.
DR. RATZ: I only put this question to the witness because the witness said he could not have been the deputy. It, therefore, seems obvious and necessary that the witness prove this by fact and say why he could not have been deputy. And he should be an expert insofar as from June 1941 until March 1942 he was in the SK 4A as a member of the orderly room, and the members of the orderly room should have known something about such questions.
PRESIDENT: Well, he has already stated in the affidavit to the contrary. Very well. We will permit the question, Dr. Ratz. I think we will lose more time deciding whether to admit it or not than if we admit it. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, when did you see von Radetzky for the first time?
PRESIDENT: Just a minute.
DR. RATZ: I understood it to mean, your Honor, that you permit the question.
PRESIDENT: Well, who said to the contrary. Are the interpreters overruling me? Well, I would like to agree with the interpreters all the time, but this time they are overruled, all of them. You put the question, Dr. Ratz, I will take care of the interpreters. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. I now put the question, why Radetzky could not have been Blobel's deputy in your opinion.
A. As far as I know, von Radetzky was ordered to the commando as an expert on languages, and as knowing Russian conditions without any police training, from quite a different profession, in fact. I, therefore, cannot assume that in such a commando a deputy should be appointed or a commander should be appointed Who has no specialized knowledge about this field. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Were you with von Radetzky all the time?
A. No. I saw Herr von Radetzky for the first time in June 1941.
Q. When did you see him again?
A. I saw Herr von Radetzky the last time -
Q. Now, the nexttime, not the last time, from June 1941?
A. Oh, I see, I then met Herr von Radetzky on the journey from Sokal to Lutzk. Herr von Radetzky had a breakdown with his car and he was stuck on the road with his car.
Q. When was that?
A. That was on the trip from Sokal to Lutzk on 27 June 1941.
Q. All right, when did you see him again after the breakdown in the car?
A. In Luck Herr von Radetzky was in charge of the securing of documents and the opening of safes, and I was with this department.
Q. And when was that?
A. That was during the stay in Lutzk, from the end of June 1941 until the Vorkommando left for Rowno about 5, 6 or 7 June 1941.
Q. Not June -- July?
A. Yes, yes, July.
Q. All right, then when did you see him after July 6 again?
A. After the 6th of July I saw Herr von Radetzky in Rowno only temporarily.
Q. All right, now, I said when?
A. In July 1941 in Shitomir.
Q. And when did you see him after that?
A. In July or August 1941, I did not see Herr von Radetzky any more, and I saw him only once more later on in March 1942 in Charkow.
Q. And you did not see him from July 1941 until March 1942?
A. No.
Q. So you don't know what he was doing at that time?
A. No.
Q. Then how do you presume to say that he wasn't in charge of a Vorkommando?
A. As far as I know, when in July 1941 I lost sight of Herr von Radetzky, in July 1942 I heard that he had become liaison officer with the AOK, the army high command.
Q. You got this from somebody else?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't know of your own knowledge what he was doing?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. And your only reason for concluding that he could not have been in charge of a subcommando was your assumption that he was brought in as an interpreter?
A. Yes. That was one of the reasons, and the other reason was that I heard from others that Herr von Radetzky had become liaison officer with the AOK and in that capacity he could not have done anything else.
Q. Why couldn't he have been qualified to lead a subcommando?
A. I assume that as liaison officer for the AOK he was so busy that he had no time left and besides he was not with the commando any more.
Q. We are not referring to why he couldn't have been a leader because he was a liaison officer, we are asking you what was there in his makeup which would prevent him from being the leader of a subcommando if a subcommando was turned over to him, what did he lack physically and mentally to do that work?
A. As far as I know, Herr von Radetzky had neither been trained in military or police work and had been assigned to the commando as an interpreter and as knowing the country.
bravery and intrepidity that he received a decoration?
Q Do you know that? Do you know that he was promoted from Captain to Major because of his abilities manifested in the field? the fact that he was an interpreter and you saw him when he was repairing his car. von Radetzky got into the car in which I traveled to Lutsk Herr von Radetzky worked with me in Lutsk later and later on in Shitomir. In Lutsk we worked together in seizing enemy documents, and in Shitomir I made reports for Herr von Radetzky.
Q Was he an interpreter all the time he was in Russia?
A That I can not say. I only know what he did prior to his stay in Shitomir. After that I know nothing further. Vorkommando? Herr von Radetzky had been leader of the Vorkommando. This owing to the fact that with the kommando there were three officers in all, one Hauptsturmfuehrer, that was Hauptsturmfuehrer von Radetzky and two Obersturmfuehrers, who in their civilian profession were police officers, and since I was asked during my interrogation who was deputy or kommander of the Advance Kommando and I could not reply to this. I was asked about my opinion concerning this and I said in my opinion Hauptsturmfuehrer von Radetzky could have held that position because he was the senior officer, but after thinking about it carefully afterwards, I must now say that Herr von Radetzky could not have been the commander of the Advance Kommando, because he did not have the necessary training for it concerning police work and could not have had -
Q Did you sign your affidavit voluntarily?
Q Did you swear to it? this statement: "The Vorkommando was headed by three leaders, namely, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Waldemar von Radetzky and two others, whose names I do not remember any more."
That states it pretty emphatically, doesn't it, that he was leader?
A I beg your pardon. I did not quite get the question. that the Vorkommando was headed by von Radetzky. He was one of the three leaders. the seizing of documents....
Q Just a moment. Just a moment. I am asking you whether you made this statement. "The Vorkommando was headed by three leaders, namely, Radetzky and two others." Did you make that statement?
Q Did you make that statement? Yes or no.
Q Did you make that statement?
DR. RATZ: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. Perhaps there is a translation mistake. According to the original of my affidavit of this witness, this witness did not say that three officers were in charge of it, but the witness said that the Vorkommando had three persons who held officers' rank; Herr von Radetzky and two other Obersturmfuehrers are mentioned. It merely says there were three officers there, but it does not say that Radetzky was in charge of it and later on he says that he had the impression that Radetzky was in charge of the Vorkommando.
He merely says he had the impression.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now let's determine now whether this translation is correct or not. I am reading from the English. It very distinctly says that the Vorkommando was headed by three officers of whom Radetzky was one. Mr. Hochwald, can you enlighten us on that?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, if Dr. Ratz will let me have the German -- It says here in the mimeographed copy, "3 Fuehrer-dienstgrade" which would mean in other words, "three officers."
THE PRESIDENT: Three officers?
THE WITNESS: That's right. BY THE PRESIDENT: next sentence you say, "I remember that one evening a conference was held during our stay in Lutsk in the course of which Waldemar von Radetzky as senior leader gave orders to the assembled sub-leaders." Did you say that in your affidavit?
Q Is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Proceed, Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ (Attorney for the defendant von Radetzky):
Q Witness, may I ask you chronologically. You said that as far as you remember on the 23rd of June, 1941, Herr von Radetzky came to the Special Kommando.
Q At the time the Sonderkommando was where? of Herr Radetzky?
Q You then traveled where?
border in Sokal.
Q In Sokal was there an Advance Kommando of SK 4a set up?
Q And where was the Advance Kommando to go?
Q And in this Advance Kommando there were also officers. How many?
Q And was Radetzky also with this Vorkommando? whether Radetzky was commander of the Advance Kommando or not. In your affidavit you said that you had the impression. Please express yourself in a more satisfactory manner as to this. the time, or, rather, that I had the impression at the time that Herr von Radetzky was leader of this Kommando because he held the highest rank as a Hauptsturmfuehrer. Herr von Radetzky in Lutsk dealt with the seizing of enemy documents and I saw him working only in that capacity there and if this sentence about my opinion is in my affidavit this is owing to the fact that the interrogator asked me specifically who was in charge of the Kommando. I could not give a satisfactory answer to this and then I was asked about my opinion, and I answered that one could have had the opinion that Herr von Radetzky was in command of the Kommando just because he held the highest rank. BY THE PRESIDENT: Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando? Advance Kommando because no leader was introduced to us -
Q Just a moment. Just a moment. On August 21, 1947, when you were asked the question you replied at that time, that is, going back to 1941, you were of the impression that Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando. Was that an honest statement by you to Wartenberg? Did you make an honest statement when you said that that was your impression and your opinion?
Q Please don't tell me what you were asked. I am asking you whether this was an honest expression when you said "At that time I had the impression that Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando." Was that an honest statement made by you to Wartenberg? back to 1941, that Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando. That's correct, isn't it? mind, if you have changed it. First let me ask you, have you now changed your mind? afterwards. I did not really know officially who was the head of the Kommando, but I was merely asked about my opinion and I stated this, my opinion honestly, on the 21st of August, but afterwards I thought about it seriously just because I knew nothing officially about this and I gained the conviction that Herr von Radetzky could not have been in charge of the entire Kommando, because he did not have the necessary training.
Q Did Radetzky give you any orders?
A In Lutsk?
Q Did he give anybody in that organization orders? How many were there? About 25 men?
Q Did he give anybody any orders? seizing documents was concerned.....
Q Please answer the question. Did he give anybody any orders? that you were of the opinion that von Radetzky was in charge; you had some fundamental factual reason for it, didn't you? highest rank.
orders were obeyed and for that reason you came to the conclusion that he was in charge of the Vorkommando? to the other two officers. Inasfar as I know, the two other officers gave orders or carried out orders independently in Lutsk.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, may I interpolate here. I just wanted to ask the witness concerning the tasks of the Vorkommando and I think this will show that the Vorkommando as far as its missions were concerned was split up. Hay I put this question?
THE PRESIDENT: Please do. BY DR. RATZ (Attorney for the defendant von Radetzky):
Q Witness, what tasks did the Advance Kommando Lutsk have? had the task in Lutsk to set up quarters and to secure enemy documents.
Q Was anything done in that direction? Who took part in this?
A Concerning this the following was done: In Lutsk, quarters were prepared for the main kommando as well, and then the securing of documents in various buildings of Lutsk was carried out.
Q Did you yourself take part?
Q Were any documents found?
Q In which building did you work on these documents? building in which the billets of the Vorkommando were as well and they were processed there and the evaluation of this material took a long time. It was screened there and put in bundles and later on sent off and, as far as I know, the Wehrmacht, I believe, the CounterIntelligence Department of the Army, sent one or two persons who helped In the screening of the material.
Q Did Herr von Radetzky before this work was started hold a meeting? held a meeting but only a few of the NCO's were present there and not the two other officers. Herr von Radetzky held this discussion with a few NCO's and with a few Ukrainian men who were given to the NCO's to assist later in sifting the documents. gave you the impression that Herr von Radetzky was the leader of the Vorkommando, is that correct?
Q You just said that the two other officers were not present. Do you know why the two other officers were not present during this discussion? profession had nothing to do with seizing documents. In any case, I never saw them do this.
Q How long did the Advance Kommando stay in Lutsk? the seizing of documents and was Herr von Radetzky also busy doing this all the time?
Q When did the main kommando arrive in Lutsk under Blobel? arrived in Lutsk? finished and we were still busy evaluating and sorting it ans we were still compiling it and putting it on lists.
Advance Commando in Lutsk at that time also carried out executions. What do you know about these executions and to what extent did Herr von Radetzky participate? BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What about your affidavit? It says, "I can declare with certainty that executions were carried out in Lutsk." Are you refuting that part of your affidavit also?
Q Well, did executions occur in Lutsk or not?
Q Did executions occur in Lutsk?
Q Why did you just say to Dr. Ratz they did not?
A I only said - I was asked by Herr Dr. Ratz whether the Sonderkomnando was in Lutsk while executions were carried out. I know nothing about that.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I would suggest that this part of the record may be read back. I understand the question put by Dr. Ratz saying, "Do you know anything about executions in Lutsk?" and the witness answered "No, I do not know a thing about executions in Lutsk." I would like that it may be clarified more.
THE PRESIDENT: Miss Arminger, can you read that back for us, please?
COURT REPORTER ARMINGER (Reading):
"Q According to the Report of Events, it is established that the Advance Kommando in Lutsk at that time also carried out executions. What do you know about these executions and to what extent did Herr von Radetzky participate?
A I know nothing about executions in Lutsk."
DIRECT EXAMINATION *- Continued BY DR. RATZ (Attorney for the defendant von Radetzky): under number 4, where he says, "During my presence in Lutsk I did not see any executions, but when some time later in Rowno, we were looking through the papers in the orderly room, I noticed a bundle of about 20 reports and records of interrogations which revealed that in Lutsk and Sokal people had been executed. I would like to ask the witness whether he wanted to say something different just now than what he said in the affidavit.
A No, I want to say nothing different. I am sorry and want to apologize to the Tribunal that I misunderstood Herr Dr. Ratz' question. I understood Dr. Ratz' question to mean that executions were carried out by the Advance Kommando in Lutsk and whether I knew anything about those. I replied to this, no, I knew nothing about then, because in my affidavit of 21 August I said that I only learned from somewritten documents which I happened to find that in Lutsk and Sokal executions had taken place and.... BY THE PRESIDENT: in those two places, is there? Lutsk and Sokal?
A That I can't say. I only came across these documents by chance and I just glanced at them and I saw that in Sokal and Lutsk a few executions had taken place.
Q Well, didn't they carry dates as to when these executions occurred? three minutes.
Q Did they carry dates as to the executions?