Q.- In all the time you were with the liaison with the army, you gave only one report to the army authorities, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
A.- No, Mr. Prosecutor, Please differentiate here between what I said yesterday, the so-called situation report. The situation report was made in the commando and did not contain any details.
Q.- I asked the defendant Blobel several times whether the subcommandos and Sonderkommando 4A reported about executions to the army authorities, and he answered by saying, "Of course," This is on page 1692 of the record, Your Honor, Will you tell the Tribunal that you, having been the liaison officer to the same army have not seen these reports about the executions?
A.- No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not see them because they were sent through different channels. If the subcommando was attached to some division at the front, they handed these matters immediately to the division of the army and not through me.
Q.- So the only activity you had as liaison officer was to get fuel and other supplies, of course, with the exception of ammunition, for Sonderkommando 4A, is that correct?
A.- No, That was not the only activity, but there were a number of other activities which I mentioned yesterday already, among them the handing on of reports on the military situation and also the reporting, Q.- Why were you not active as a commander of a subcommando or advance commando?
A.- Because that was not my task.
Q.- Why not?
A.- Because I did not have the required qualification.
Q.- What kind of military training did you have?
A.- Military training was done in the Latvian army where I was released as a NCO.
Q.- Did you learn there higher strategy?
A.- No.
Q.- Will you tell then the Tribunal how it was possible for you, without any military preparation, to be a liaison officer to the army -you were not fit for both services, you were not fit for the police service, you were not fit for liaison service?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, in order to act as a liaison officer one did not need much military knowledge. I would like to say one had to find one's way about.
Q.- You have said that you had to contact the G-2 for the situation map in order to make your situation reports. You have stressed the point here again that you had to make situation reports, for this there was a certain knowledge necessary, was it not?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Coming back to the reports, did you learn how many people were killed in Kiev?
A.- Yes. I learned about this. At the time reports were issued and sent out where the figure named here was mentioned. It was doubted at the time or questioned. I heard more about this later on, why it was questioned.
Q.- Will you be a little more specific, did you see the army report on this number, or did you see the report of Einsatzgruppe C on this number on this 33,000?
A.- The report from Einsatzgruppe C, I saw here in the reports of events; the report from Einsatzgruppe C sent to Berlin, I did not see. In Kiev I saw a report dictatec by Blobel. As far as I know, it was sent to the Einsatzgruppe and also to army agencies.
Q.- And how is it that you did just see this one report and all other reports you do not remember and did not see?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, in that time when I was in Kiev I had been taken out of my work as liaison officer in order to go to Kiev, in order to seize documents and then to go back to the army.
I explained yesterday what I did in Kiev and how long this took me.
Q.- Were you at the 29th and 30th of September 1941 in Kiev?
A.- I cannot say that exactly.
Q.- How many executions either in Kiev or somewhere else did you witness?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, I never witnessed any executions.
Q.- Never?
A.- No.
Q.- Mr. Radetzky, there is overwhelming evidence that 60,000 people were killed in a very short time by Sonderkommando 4A, by a commando which has all in all seven officers. The second highest ranking officer was you, and you have never witnessed one of these executions, is that what you want to tell the Tribunal?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, may I mention here that I wasn't the second highest officer, but according to ranks there was a higher ranking officer than myself apart from the commander, and as far as police or as far as position in the police or the civil service is concerned, several officers were superior to me.
Q.- There was, with the exception of Blobel, nobody in the commando with a higher rank than you?
A.- Well, the senior officer in the commandos was a Hauptsturmfuehrer Kelson.
Q.- What was your rank?
A.- My rank was also Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q.- Yes. So, will you go back now to my original question, how do you explain to the Tribunal that in spite of the fact that in a few months approximately 60,000 people were killed by a unit which was quite small, possibly not as small as Mr. Blobel now wants us to believe, but quite small, only seven officers. How can you explain to the Tribunal that you have never witnessed one of these executions?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, already yesterday I expressed that I tried again and again to be released or rather to keep away from that work and I had no reason to try and do this.
Q.- Did you never act as an interpreter when the victims were read the sentence before execution?
A.- No.
Q.- Did you ever supervise other interpreters, for instance, the Ukranian interpreters, the indigenous personnel which you hired in Russia itself?
A.- Supervised - No. Originally I had been given this mission, but Q.- No, I was now speaking now about executions you never looked into the matter how these Ukrainians acted before or during an execution in order to supervise these interpreters?
A.- No.
Q.- The defendant, Blobel has testified here at great length, and you certainly will remember that all people who were killed by Sonderkommando 4A were duly interrogated, the case was investigated, and when they were found guilty of a crime against the German forces, were legally condemned and executed, Who carried out the interrogations of these people?
A.- The interrogators who were officials from the army.
Q.- Did they speak Russian and Ukranian?
A.- No. We had interpreters at our disposal;
Q.- And you never acted in this capacity?
A.- No, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q.- There were only two German officers, interrogators in this unit. If the testimony of Blobel is to be believed, they must have carried out approximately 150,000 or 200,000 interrogations during 6 months, and you want to tell the Tribunal that you never had anything to do with this ac tivity, is that correct?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, I described to you what kind of tasks I had and it wasn't my task to interpret during interrogations.
Q.- So you don't know anything about the activities of the interpreters with the Sonderkommando 4A, that was not your task?
A.- No. I only know that the other interpreters were always present during interrogations. They were interpreters who had been recruited during the advance.
Q.- About the Jewish question, you have testified that everything which was in connection with this question, especially also executions, was only the task of the Leader 4, is that right?
A.- No. I don't think that I said that. I said that it was the task of the Chief 4 of the Einsatzgruppe -
Q.- And whose task was that in Sonderkommando 4A?
A.- In Sonderkommando 4A it was the task of the executive officials who mostly in practice carried out these tasks.
Q.- Will you tell the Tribunal the names of those officers?
A.- Officers from the security police who were active in the commando.
Q.- Will you tell the Tribunal the names of these people, please?
A.- Yes. There was Jantzen, Hanns, whether Funck took part, I don't know, he tried to get away from the commando.
Q.- Do you remember having been interrogated by Mr. Wartenberg on this subject?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you remember what you told Mr. Wartenberg about that, did you tell these three names, or did you tell another name?
A.- I don't know exactly how this discussion went. I said at the time that I personally gained the impression that Blobel himself had the supervision over this sphere of work.
Q Did you not further tell Mr. Wartenberg, I mean, that Blobel was doing practically nothing else but that; that he was only concerned with executions and with nothing else? Did you tell that to Mr. Wartenberg?
A I cannot recall, Mr. Prosecutor, but I hardly think so. I would have to correct this now, if I said so at the time, since Blobel probably had to do a number of other tasks as well. I only know that the so-called secret box - that was a box which was taken along throughout the entire war with all secret orders and all dates and was always in Blobel's room, and Blobel handled those matters or directed them. charge of the executions of Einsatzkommando 4A, is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I would only like to change it insofar as I said that Blobel exclusively and alone was active on this.
Q But he was primarily active in these executions, is that correct? at the end of June, 1941?
A I think two. I am not quite sure.
Q Who was the second one? You were one. Who was the second one? preter in the kommando.
Q Will you the Tribunal the name of this man? page 84 of the German. This is Document 2938, Prosecution Exhibit 44. I am quoting from the top of page 81, under the heading "Page 13 of the original, continued." There it is said that 300 Jews and 20 looters who had been arrested were shot on the 30th of June. Who interrogated these people?
A I do not know, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q You were in Lucsk, were you not?
Q You do not know that?
A No, I don't know that? Sonderkommando 4A was which was in Lucsk by then?
Q Nevertheless you do not know anything about these things?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I already said yesterday that Jantzen, who was commissioned to deal with the executive tasks said that the town commander ordered a reprisal action, but I cannot say whether and when and in what manner this was carried out.
Q What was the rank of Jantzen?
Q You were a Hauptsturmfuehrer?
Q Who had the higher rank? is another entry in the report. That's the next paragraph and that says that 1,160 Jews were shot, but these 300 and the 20 looters had obviously nothing to do with the reprisal measure. Were they killed without investigation?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know. I described yesterday what I thought I could do about the order issued by Reichenau according to which in effect an equal number of persons in the Ukrainian intelligentsia were to be killed, and I know that Jeckel and his deputy, Sturmbannfuehrer Meyer at the time insisted that this order would be carried out. intelligentsia were killed? Was that before the Germans came to Lucsk?
intelligentsia were Soviet citizens?
A I don't know what their status was, their legal status. The territory concerned was occupied by the Soviets after the Polish campaign and I cannot say whether therefore they became legal Soviet citizens or whether they were Polish citizens.
Q You should know, Witness. You have given us a very interesting lecture about the Ukraine yesterday. You should know that, but, anyhow, they were either Polish or Soviet citizens, is that correct? or Soviet citizens? out a reprisal for the killing of Poles or Soviet citizens on Polish or Soviet citizens? Will you tell that to the Tribunal? What kind of reprisal would that be? the time, the Commander in Chief of the Army gave it and carried it out. sible that the father was killed in reprisal for the killing of the son or the son in reprisal for the killing of the father? Do you understand that, Mr. Radetzky? Do you call that a reprisal?
Q All right. The victims and the people on whom the reprisal was carried out were both citizens of the same country. The reprisal was carried out for an act which happened before the German forces came in. As it was a reprisal, it was carried out without investigation. Is it not possible that the father would have been killed by the Russians and the son in reprisal of these killings, by the Germans, is that right, and you call that a reprisal, Mr. Radetsky? Do you understand what I mean?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I did not say that I called this a reprisal. I merely said that the order at the time was made known as a reprisal measure. My personal attitude I described yesterday and I have nothing to add. a reprisal? on which measures the German army command considered necessary in the Eastern campaign. I personally tried to object to this manner and I think that I expressed my view within the narrow scope which I had at my disposal. agents and spies were liquidated. Can you tell the Tribunal how it was found out that these 50 persons were agents and spies?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you anything about that. I had nothing to do with the execution tasks.
Q No one told you anything about it? A. No.
Q Nobody ever requested your services as an interpreter? they may have had in their possession papers which were of interest for the military authorities?
A I don't know that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q You have never seen such documents? You have never evaluated such documents in writing your reports about the theatres in Luck?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not make any report about the theatres in Lutsk.
Q Are you sure, Mr. Radetsky that you did not say that?
A That I made reports?
Q You made reports about the theatre? yes, I said that.
Q Good. In another document, in Document Bock II-A, your Honors, it is on page 34 of the English, I do not know the German page, Document NO-2940, Prosecution Exhibit 35, it says this in the middle of the page under the heading, "Einsatzkommando 4A, Location. Luck." "Operating also always with the forward units of the advancing troops in Lutsk region. 2,000 executions as counter measures for the assassination of the Ukrainians. Material seized. In Brody between 50 and 60 safes with GPU material seized." You know about these 2,000 killed, do you? These are the same as mentioned in the other report.
A Mr. Prosecutor I knew that a large scale execution was carried out in Luck, yes.
Q Do you remember a number from your own recollection?
Q What do you know about the safes with the GPU material in Brody?
A I know nothing about that. I was never in Brody. at great length that you were in charge of a safe blasting unit? Was he mistaken in this respect?
A I was only active in Lutsk, Mr. Prosecutor, not in Brody.
Q Were you in charge of a safe blasting unit?
Q How long?
Q Will you tell the Tribunal when that was? 1941. This must have been up to the time when I was given the job as liaison officer at the front. At the time there was a standstill and no new buildings were being seized.
Q How many safe blasting units were attached to Sonderkommando 4A?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I had been given the special mission not to blast safes just for blasting's sake, but to seize documents, and I had people with a welding outfit for that purpose. In how far any more groups existed I cannot say and I do not think that any further groups existed, except in one sub-kommando which was not in Lutsk at the time. then, is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know whether a kommando of 4A was ever in Brody then, is that correct?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know whether a kommando of 4A was ever in Brody, because Brody was utside the territory, or, rather, outside the route which, Sonderkommando 4A took. It is further to the south and it is on the route where all the kommandos passed.
Q Let us return to the reprisal measure here. According to your own information, 1,500 people were killed; who selected these 1,500 people for the executions?
A I cannot tell you that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q You have no idea? You were only told that 1,500 people were shot in reprisal, nothing else, no other details is known to you? I would have to give a false report if I wanted to testify to anything more explicit.
killing of 1,500 people, defenseless people, and guiltless people, and you must have know that they committed no crimes, as you yourself said it was a reprisal measure. You did not care to know why, how, by whom, for what reason, for justified or for unjustified reasons, you did not care for that?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I already told you that this order was considered a reprisal measure and had been issued as such. yourself as to who was killed, by whom, the people were killed, and how they were selected and why this reprisal was carried out. You only know there was a reprisal and the only name connected with this reprisal you can remember is the name of Jeckel, nothing in connection with Sonderkommando 4A?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I already told you that Jantzen told me at the time that the town commander - I cannot recall his name - told him that a retaliation measure had been ordered or that he had ordered one and he also said that Meyer took over the kommando at the time and that Jeckel somehow insisted on having this actually carried out.
Q Will you tell the Tribunal only one thing: Were these people killed by Sonderkommando 4A?
A Sonderkommando 4A participated in it. How far, I cannot say.
Q Which part of Sonderkommando 4A?
A I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Isn't it true that it was the sub-kommando or the Advance Kommando in which you were the highest ranking officer at that time?
A I don't think so, because Blobel came to Luck with the rest of the kommando and only then brought the order along from Reichenau which said that the same numbers of Jews were to be shot.
Q Just a minute ago you told the Tribunal it was Meyer. Now you again say it was Blobel.
same number of Jews were to be shot as retaliation for the Ukrainians who had been shot. report itself it says expressly that it was an advance kommando?
A May I ask on which page it is? in the second to the last paragraph. "An advance squad dispatched to Lutsk on 27 June." Jantszen had stayed two days, he told me that the town command er had ordered a retaliation measure. advance kommando in which you were the highest ranking officer?
A I cannot say that, Mr. Prosecutor, in as far as the highest ranking officer is concerned, I don't think that we shall be able to clear this matter up in this procedure.
Q You don't know whether it was your advance kommando?
A No. I am not certain. you turn to Document Book II-C, Your Honors, I am quoting from page 48. This is 54 in the German. That is the last paragraph on page 48 under the heading, "Page 5 of the original," Your Honors, "Einsatzgruppe C, Lacation, Rowne". This report says that "Einsatzkommando 4A still in Rowne where executions took place of 240 Bolshevist, predominantly Jewish, officials, agents, etc." Were these people interrogated, Herr Radetzky?
A I don't know, I cannot say, Mr. Prosecutor. Rowne?
A I don't know that either. They were being recruited continuously until they had gotten as many as the kommando thought they needed. In any case, it must have been in Shitomir when the number was complete. Haw many there were in at the time, I do not know.
Q What do you know about the executions of these 240 people?
A I cannot say anything about this, Mr. Prosecutor. I said already yesterday that I was in Rowne only for a short period of time and that I had to go back to Luck and that I moved along with the advance kommando mentioned in this report. In this same report it can be seen that the advance kommando had already started moving towards Shitomir. in Rowno?
Q. You were in Shitomir for a certain time, were you?
A. Yes.
Q. The documents show three different operations against Jews, which were carried out in Shitomir. - - - If, Your Honors please, I think I am coming to a new subject, and it would be the right time to recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, before I go over to the activity of the witness in Shitomir, I want to follow up the line of questioning according to the Emergency Service Decree of which I started last night, as the interpreter has in the meantime received that part of the translation of the document. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. HerrRadetzky, you have told this Tribunal that you could not join the Wehrmacht, as you were deferred for this emigration agency of Baltic Germans, but in spite of the fact, you were later called up for emergency service according to the Decree on 15 December 1930, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You have told the Tribunal that you made eleven attempts to leave this service, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. May I assume these were serious offenses?
A. Mr. Prosevuyor, I found out what I could do against this emergency status. At that time I didn't know any thing of the form, how the assignment would take place. I was told at the time....
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, he only asked you were these serious attempts?
BY MR HOCHWALD;
Q. Were these eleven attempts serious attempts, nothing else?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Did you when making these attempts look once into the Decree on the basis of which you were drafted into this emergency service?
A. No, I relied on the information which I received from the Hauptstrufuehrer who informed me about it.
Q. So you didn't know anytnign about the Decree then?
A. No, I merely knew of the fact of the emergency status.
Q. Was it not known to you that service in the Wehrmacht, or in the Waffen-SS, had preference to this Decree?
A. No, I didn't know that.
Q. Was it known to you that you had the right to object against the draft?
A. At that time, no.
Q. Was it known to you that you could have been punished with approximately a fine of 1500 marks, if you would not have obeyed this order?
A. No, I didn't know that.
Q. So you didn't know anything about the contents of the Decree?
A. About the contents of the decree, I didn't know any details when I was informed about the Emergency War Status, outside of the answer which I received, and which I have repeatedly expressed.
Q. When did you learn first about the details of this Decree?
A. I heard details about it in January 1942, shen I was in the Labor Office in Posen, whore I had asked what I could do in order to get out of this emergency status.
Q. Did you read the Decree then?
A. No,.
Q. So in spite of the fact that you claim to have made eleven Court 2, case 9 serious attempts to get released from this service, you didn't read once the Decree in order to find out what rights you eventually would have to object against the draft, as that correct?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I relied on the information of the officials whom I thought I could rely upon.
Q. You didn't read the Decree?
A. In the Labor Office in Posen an official read to me parts of it, but today I don't remember what these were.
Q. Am I correct in assuming that you told the Tribunal that you were drafted into this emergency service as an interpreter, is that right?
A. As an interpreter and a man who knows the terrain, the country.
Q. Is it not true then that there was no possibility to use you for another purpose, as for the purpose of an interpreter, is it not true?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I was used for other purposes.
Q. If that is true, witness, is it not further proved that at the moment in which you would not have been used as an interpreter any more, your draft would have ceased?
A. No, it didn't cease in any case. I amde enough attempts to have it revoked and it was not revoked.
Q. You never made an official objection by saying, I was drafted as an interpreter but I am used as a SD-man, I am used for writing reports, I am not used as an interpreter, and, therefore, my draft has no meaning, and it is not valid, did you?
A. In the conversation with Sturmbannfuehrer, Major Trautmann, in Office I in Berlin, I went into great details, in describing this question of my emergency war status. I told him at the time that if one drafts me as an interpreter one should not use me as a Hauptsturmfuehrer, and when I made this remark he asked me to leave the Court 2, case 9 room and to come back in three days.
That is how the conversation proceeded.
Q. How do you explain to the Tribunal this fact, that in spite of the fact that you were drafted as an interpreter, you were never in all the time when you were with Sondercommando IV-A used as such?
A. I explain this by the fact that right from the beginning I was used for writing out the reports and that the assignment such as seizing documents also was part of the field of activity as an interpreter. Later on my employment as liaison officer came about.
Q. That still does not seem to explain to me the fact that you were never used for the service for which you were hired.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the expression was "interpreter and expert familiar with the country". I was put into this job conditioned by knowledge of the country and my knowledge of the language and for my part, therefore, I could not protest against it in any way.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal how your knowledge of the country helped you as liaison officer to the Army, why it was necessary to have a knowledge of the country to be liaison officer to the Army?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have already said in my direct examination that I personally attached value to the job of liaison officer.
Q. You could arrange that, could you not, but you could not arrange to be released from a War emergency service which undoubtedly in your personal case was not valid? Is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
A. Twice at the beginning of the Eastern campaign, my attention was called to the fact that I should not attempt, in any manner, to be released from this emergency status. Nevertheless I did so later on, anyway. However, I had exhausted the matter in another way and thus I did make the attempt this way.
Q. Will you then turn to Document Book II-A, Your Honors, I am quoting from page 65. This is NO-3405, Prosecution Exhibit 42, the last paragraph on this page, Your Honors, under the heading "Activity of Teilkommando SK 4A at Lubny", It says, and I quote: "On the 18 October 1941 the Teilkommando of SK 4a at Lubny took over the evaluation of the NKWD files left behind by the Vorkommando and the handling of current correspondence."
"Together with the Ukrainian militia set up in Lubny it was possible, with the aid of the files acquired, to arrest a considerable number of NKWD agents and several leading communists. 34 agents and communists and 73 Jews were shot." the record that the aid and evaluation of the files bad something to do with the executions? That you, between the time you executed your affidavit and you testified here on the stand changed your testimony about your activities, isn't that correct? document. When you made your statement on the witness stand you knew it. Am I correct in assuming that for this simple reason you changed your testimony?
THE PRESIDENT: The affidavit, you mean. His statement in the affidavit.
MR. HOCHWALD: The statement in the affidavit to his testimony, I am sorry, Your Honor.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, this is not so. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
Q. Let's go over now to the documents which show the activity of Sonderkommando 4a in Shitomir. I am turning to Document Book II-C, page 16, page 18 in the German. There it is said that "Gruppenstab and Vorauskommando 4a in cooperation have up to date shot, all in all, approximately 400 Jews, Communists, and informants for the NKWD." What do you know about the killing of these 400 people, Herr Radetsky?
A. Mr. Prosecutro, I cannot testify anything about it.
Q. Why not?
A. Because I know nothing about the killing of these people and had nothing to do with it.
Q. You were in this Advance Kommando, were you not?
A. Yes, but I did not command the Advance Kommando.