At this occasion 236 persons could be arrested and interrogated. 193 persons were established as being agitators and dangerous, disintegrating elements, and were shot. In the same way 64 Jews were treated who were equipped with falsified passports, were hiding, or could be established as carriers of disintegrating rumors in connection with the enemy propaganda." Do you know anything about these events?
A. No, I do not know anything about these shootings nor did I have anything to do with them, I want to point out that the commander of the Security Police, Dr. Kranebitter was also in Charkov at the same time, and, as far as I can see the situation, he was responsible for police measures at that time. The defense state of Charkow had not started in March, as mentioned here, but it was not in effect when I was there and the front was absolutely quiet at that time and the actual operations only began againat the beginning of May.
Q. When did you leave Charkow?
A. At the end of May or beginning of June, 1942, after the Timoschenko offensive had failed. We advanced and the kommando got the sector.
Q. What was your assignment?
A. I was assigned as a liaison officer to the Second German and Second Hungarian Army.
Q. What were the objectives of this Army?
A. The Upper Don River.
Q. Did you hold any special assignments on this occasion?
A. No, everything had been settled.
Q. When was Weinmann released and who was put in his place?
A. Weinmann was replaced in 1942 in the middle of August and Steimle was put in charge of the kommando.
Q. What did you do when Steimle was commanding?
A. Under Steimle's command I was liaison officer with the Second Army. Also it was my assignment to maintain liaison with the Second Hungarian Army.
Q. The prosecution asks Steimle on the 6th of November 1947, -it is in the record, German text page 2072 ' the question whether the reason for your wanting to leave the kommando was because you were bored with the activity. Will you please comment on this.
A. This assumption is without any basis. I have repeatedly wanted to leave the kommando. Also I have explained that this had been my attitude from the very beginning.
Q. In Document Book III-B on page 69 of the German, it is NO-3842, Exhibit 119, Affidavit Steimle, it says that you, Witness, were held in high esteem.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I am sorry, Your Honor. I do not have the English Document book.
THE INTERPRETER: Page 39, Your Honor, I believe.
THE PRESIDENT: That's where it begins.
Q. (Continued) It is the last page of the affidavit Steimle. It is page 4 of the original-How am I to understand your utterance? -It is page 42.
A. I cannot say of myself whether I was liked or whether I was disliked, but I was held in esteem by the Army, because it was well known that, if I was able to do so, I was always with the front unit and that 1 had destroyed a tank on one occasion and that I was held in esteem by the officers as a soldier as they knew that I would have liked to join the Wehrmacht.
Q. When did you leave the SK 4 A?
A. When Steimle left; Sturmbannfuehrer Schmidt, the man who had been his deputy until then, took over the kommando. I had meanwhile seen that Schulz had become Personnel Referat in the Reich Security Main Office and therefore he had been appointed my superior chief in Berlin.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you give us the date, please?
THE WITNESS: That was in the middle of January, 1943.
A. (Continued) I entertained hopes of having myself released from the war emergency status. In addition, there was another factor: That was my promotion. I joined the Einsatzgruppe where I spoke to Gruppenfuehrer Thomas and asked him to be released. We had a heated dispute in the course of which he kicked me out. On the next day he asked me to come to see him again, as I had expressly asked him to receive me again. He released me as far as he was concerned, but he also warned me that I should not go too far in Berlin in order not to contract the wrath of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD.
Q. Could you then ask for your release in Berlin?
A. Yes, I made out a request and I went to see Schulz who had meanwhile been appointed Chief of Office I. I could expect him to see my point. Schulz told me that he would support me. However, he told me that according to the regulations in effect nobody could be released from his war emergency status and that the decision was with the Chief of the Reich Security Main Office to whom he would send my request with his own personal approval.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I questioned the Defendant Schulz concerning these matters on the 20th of October, 1947, page 1061 of the German record.
Q. (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, did you take any other steps?
A. Yes, Office VI had wanted to employ me even before that time and a discussion was held with Schellenberg in the course of which he, Schellenberg, promised me that if my request for release would not be granted, he would arrange to take me over in his office for a job in the Foreign Information Service.
Q. Were these interviews successful?
A. No, my request was refused and Schellenberg did not get in touch with me again. Thus in the middle of March 1943 I had to return to Russia.
THE PRESIDENT: Just before he goes back to Russia suppose we have a breathing spell of fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. SUESS (DEPUTIZING FOR DR. DURCHHOLZ FOR THE DEFENDANT SCHULZ): The Witness, August Haefner of the prosecution on the 13th of December at twelve o'clock was asked to come, for a discussion on Wednesday the 17th of December at 1300 hours. Captain Reiz from the Defense Center has affixed to the bulletin board for the defense counsels a publication with the date of 16 December, according to which witnesses of the prosecution may not be asked to come for discussions after 1600 hours. This witness Haefner is supposed to be taken away from the court house on the 18th of December -- that is the day after tomorrow- and will not be available to us any mere after that date. I would like to ask politely to make it possible for us that we may talk to this witness at 1800 hours, as an exception, tomorrow, the 17th of December.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the Witness Haefner.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: H-a-e-fn-e-r, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: For whom?
DR. SUESS: For Durchholz for the Defendant Schulz.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. SUESS: I have the request here which was given back to me. I would like to give a copy to the prosecution.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Possibly Dr. Suess can tell us whether it could not be possible to talk to the witness at an earlier hour We have no interrogators and no personnel at our disposal at that late hour. It is extremely hard to get them transportation to go home and so on and so on. We, of course, have no objections that the witness may be interrogated by Dr. Durchholz. We only would suggest whether it would not be possible that an earlier hour nay be chosen for this interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: Why couldn't you make the hour earlier?
DR. SUESS: we have to book the witness a few days before hand Your Honor, and, at the moment, Herr Durchholz works as defense counsel in Case VIII where his client is on the witness stand now and therefore he cannot get away during the session and cannot talk to the witness during court hours, but he would like to talk to him personally. While court is in session, it is difficult to ask the witness to come earlier.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I do think, Your Honor, there would still be a possibility to start the interrogation at 4:30; that means at 1630, instead of 1800 hours which would make it very much easier for us to provide an interrogator for this interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: How about 1645, allowing him time to leave the court room.
DR. SUESS: I am very much obliged; thank you very much, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: That would be satisfactory then to you, 1645?
DR. SUESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT. Mr. Hochwald, will you take care of the mechanics of it?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I do think, Your Honors, that I cannot give any orders to the Defense Information Center. I do think it would be necessary that the Secretary-General informs them.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General is informed that the Tribunal approves of Dr. Durchholz interrogating the Witness Haefner for the Defendant Schulz on December 17 at 1645 and the Secretary General will please make all arrangements necessary to see that this recommendation of the Tribunal is executed.
DR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: I thank you.
MR. HOCHWALD: I take this as the official information to the prosecution that the interrogation will take place at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you are correct.
DR. SUESS: Thank you very much, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You are very welcome.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, you just said in the middle of March, 1943, you had to return to Russia what kind of instructions did you get then? had to make reports about the Partisan situation in collaboration with the G-2 of the Corps, and the office of the Commander of the Security Police in Chernikov, and also I had to make SD reports.
Q When did you leave there? 1943. I was assigned as part of the 12th Tank Army, and I was wounded in the head. I was sent to the hospital and from there into an Army recovery home.
Q How long were you in this A., my recuperation home?
A I was there for about ten days. Then I got my orders to go home in order to have special treatment there. I received a teletype message here that I was to go to Lemberg immediately. There I received an order from Sturmbannfuehrer of Office I to report to Einsatzgruppe B to be utilized as liaison officer with 2d Army and the 8th Hungarian Corps, I asked for my release again. Also, I had not yet completely recovered and I was told again that according to the regulations I could not be released.
Q What was your work there and how long were you active there? Partisan situation I had to make reports, as in my previous work and forward these reports to the G-2 of the Einsatzgruppe. These sources were those agencies of the 2d Army and the 8th Hungarian Corps. I continued this activity until the beginning of January, 1944
Q Did you have to carry out any other functions as well? administration remained the same. The officers of the Security Police and the SD and the District Commissar's offices worked in the same manner as before. My task, the Partisan reconnaisance and seizure of reports of the enemy, completely took up my time. Sonderkommandos?
Q Where did you go then? was assigned to the Group 6 C. I remained there until the end of the war. I once made a report for American agencies about this work. I think it would lead too far to talk about this here in detail. It is at the Tribunal's or the prosecution's disposal at any time if they should be interested in it. SS and did you work there? might have prolonged the war in Austria.
A Whether the latter would have come true I cannot judge. In any case, in March of 1945 I saw to it that a Russian regiment in the Karawank mountains would gain contact with the Western Allies and in the upper Austrian territory I saw to it that a volunteer corps was prevented from being set up, which was supposed to be 15,000 men strong, after I had heard that they were going to fight against the Western powers. from your war emergency status?
were refused, and my superior said that I was a defeatist.
Q When did you become a prisoner of war in American hands? over of the Russian staff to which I was attached, I received an order, from a supplementary office of the Waffen-SS, to report to the LHA, and an entry in my pay book was made accordingly. I reported on 10 May 1945 in Mauerkirchen in Austria to the first American camp which I came across. officially.
Q what did you do in internment? since about June, 1946 approximately, I worked as apprentice in the carpenter's workshop, and in November of this year I wanted to pass an examination as carpenter. ment in the East from December, 1941 until March, 1942 and from January until March, 1943, what did you do then? tried to be released from my war emergency status and also during that time I worked in the resettlement advisory office to which I belonged until the end of the war. Here I tried to help a -number of families and individuals who had been endangered for racial or political reasons and had saved them from persecution. I did this because at the time I had taken care of these people already before my call up and did not want to leave them to their fate. My connection with these people had the eventual result that I myself got into trouble. But, I can say today that not even one of this comparatively large group of of persons was ever sent to a concentration camp because of their race or because of their political attitude.
My attitude can be shown from this. you tried to be released from the war emergency status?
THE PRESIDENT: It is enough if he gives us the number of times. He doesn't need to relate each particular attempt again.
A I tried this eleven times; in July, 1941; beginning of August, 1941; end of September, 1941; in December, 1941; in February, 1942; in March, 1942, in January, 1943; in February, 1943; in October, 1943; in July, 1944; and in March, 1945.
Q My final question in the direct examination to you, witness: did you do anything in order to oppose consequences as you had become aware of them beyond your personal interests. in a strong rejection by Himmler, and my memoranda to the Eastern Ministry at the time, in my economic reports to the Army Offices I tried to influence in an indirect manner the general attitude. Beyond that, since the fall of 1941 I looked for contact and found it in human beings who seemed willing to avoid a political catastrophe and to look for a connection with the Western Allies. Because of this and my work for persecutees for racial and political reasons, I personally had difficulties which increased towards the end of the war. I could not use my influence beyond a small circle, but I tried in my situation at the time to do everything I could possibly do.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, my direct examination is now concluded.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any member of defense counsel desire to cross examine? Mr. Hochwald, you may proceed with the cross examination. Oh, just a moment, Mr. Hochwald.
KRAUSE for the defendant Haensch:
Q. Witness, you said that at the time when you came to Charkow the commander of Sonderkommando 4-A was the Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Weinmann?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know when Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Weinmann took over the command of Sonderkommando 4-A?
A. I cannot give the exact date but it must have been the middle of March.
Q. The middle of March?
A. In any case he arrived a few days before me.
Q. And when did you arrive?
A. I arrived about the 15 or 16 of March.
Q. As you said you were on leave and then you returned?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed Mr. Hochwald. BY MR. HOCHWALD: which was just put to you. When did you leave Berlin to go to Charkow?
A. I did not leave Berlin but Posen the beginning of March.
Q. First of March?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot give you an exact reply to this.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us always have the year especially when you initiate an inquiry.
Q. It was 1942, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. I am sorry, your Honor. How long did your journey take?
A. About six to seven days.
Q. And when you arrived in Charkow Weinmann was already for several days there, was he not?
A. Yes, he arrived just before me. 3. Where from do you know it vas a short time?
A. I heard that.
Q. Who told you that?
A. A member of the office or he himself told me.
Q. Will you turn to your SS personal file. This is Document Book III-C NO-4771 and I want to quote from page 25 of the English, your Honors. Unfortunately I have nobody here who could show the witness the German. I shall try to do that myself.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have got it.
THE PRESIDENT: He has found it, Mr. Hochwald.
Q. Thank you very much. This is a life history of yours for the SS, written by you. May I assume that this life history is correct?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q. I am especially referring to the paragraph under the heading "page 2" and to the paragraph under the heading "page 3 of original". May I assume that what you have written here in this life history is correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Here it is stated that from 15 December 1938 -oh, no, I am sorry. That you were entrusted with the preparation for an economic reconstruction of the community and you were a member of the Main Commission of the German Embassy at the discussions concerning the Option Contract. That's the Option Contract for the resettlement of Baltic Germans, is that correct?
It was an act that gave the Germans the right to change their homes, to be resettled, is that right? Posen in order to act as deputy of the director of the Advisory Office for Ethnic German Immigrants. That's correct, too?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you act in this capacity?
A. Which ones are you referring to Mr. Prosecutor, the first or the second one?
Q. The second one.
A. The second one is a representation which lasted until the end of December, then it was reorganized. Here representatives no longer existed and I only worked in my own special field.
Q. Well I can assume that you have been with this resettlement activity from the very beginning, up to when? Up to May 1941, is that right?
A. Yes, except for an interruption from the beginning of February until the beginning of May 1945 when the renewed resettlement of Baltic Germans was cause for my returning home.
Q. You said 1945. I can assume May 1941?
A. 1941.
Q. So you are well acquainted with the whole matter are you not as to have been working there a long time?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were these Baltic Germans resettled? What was the place where they were to stay or where they were resettled, as a matter of fact.
A. The fact of the resettlement is indisputed. As I testified in my direct examination, regulations of the Reich Commissar for the strengthening of Germandom existed.
Q. I only wanted to know where they were to be resettled, in which place; in which province?
A. To Danzig and to Posen.
Q. Is that in the Wartegau?
A. Yes.
Q. And these places were populated - - Danzig and the Wartegau? How many Baltic Germans were sent from Latvia to the Wartegau?
A. I estimate about 40,000. There might have been more.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether it was not necessary to deport first people from the Wartegau in order to settle these Baltic Germans in Posen and in Danzig.
A. Yes, that is what happened.
Q. Was that known to them when you were working in this Advisory Agency?
A. At the beginning we did not know about this. It, was said that we would be sent to quarters from where Poles had escaped. Later on I personally learned that Poles had to leave the Wartegau and to go to the Government General.
Q. But you knew as a matter of fact that that was the official policy of the agency in which you worked, did you not?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. It wasn't the official policy of the authority for which I worked.
Q. I possibly can refresh your memory on that a little bit. If your Honors please I am not going to introduce this document just now. It is a document which was admitted in the Race and Settlement case but I would like to read only one of the paragraphs into the record. I shall read it in German as I have no perfect English translation. I will try to read it very slowly.
"Copy -- General Instructions and Directives of the Reich Commissar for the strengthening of Germandom."
"1. The first period of our activity will cover the following matters:
"Deportation of about 55,000 Jews and of the leading anti-German Poles as well as of Polish intellectuals, starting from Danzig and Posen across the border of the German Reich into the district of the Polish Government General. In this action Jews will be sent to the territory to the east of the Vistula River, between the Vistula and the Bug River." you were working in this Advisory Agency?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. This document is a document of the Reich Commissar for the strengthening of Germandom and we outselves were subject to his directives insofar as we forcably had to go to Danzig, West Prussia, and Wartegau. We were not allowed to go to Berlin and Cologne and live there, as you may perhaps assume, I merely want to point out the difference.
Q Witness, I do not ask about your personal resettlement. All that I have been asking you was your activity in the resettlement agency. I know that you were resettled yourself, but you have told the Tribunal at great length that you have been actively working on this resettlement, end I am asking you whether you, having been active with these agencies, were aware at that time that more then half a million Jews were deported from the places where the Baltic Germans, for whom you arranged the immigration there - whether these Jews were deported just for the simple reason to make room for your fellow countrymen who came from Riga to this area? I do not speak about your personal resettlement.
A I did not hear that, Mr. Prosecutor; I did not hear about these restrictions.
Q. How do you explain to the Tribunal that you, having been active quite a long re, should have been completely unaware of this fact? These are not ten people; these are not fifteen people; it is more than half a million Jews and a great number of the Polish intelligentsia. You have been in Posen yourself. You were familiar, as you have told the Tribunal, with the whole affair. How do you explain, that you just did not know?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I said that I heard that our interests to advise the resettlers, the resettlers from the Baltic countries, I said already that only Baltic Germans worked for us....
THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't help you to move the chair if you still keep your head for away from the microphone. It is your head that is to move, not the chair. There, I think that will be better.
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly. BY MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: had to tell them where to go and what to do., so if you told them where to go you must have known that they just went to pieces which had been made free for them by the Polish people, did you not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, there is an error. We did not tell the people where to go, but Himmler and his officers in the Reich Commissariate for the Strengthening of Germanism, who had a large agency in Posen, told them where to go. fellow countrymen, you ever found out they were settled in places where from Poles and Jews had been deported, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe? apartments from where Poles had escaped, and that I heard myself later on that people were deported, I learned that people were deported.
Q When did you learn that?
A Why did you not leave the agency when you heard about that? to help your fellow countrymen resettle in places where other people were deported from, is that what I take from your answer?
A Mr. Prosecutor, this was not up to me, where the people were sent to and how they were housed, but the advisory office merely had to see to it, and this was my field of activity, that their economic claims be founded to such an extent that a recompensation could be made by the Reich at a later time, I would like to say here expressly that at the time we told all our clients that they should not take over any property from other people, and if they could do nothing else they should act as trustees, and the result is that now, as I heard, 85 percent of the property of the resettlers actually can be claimed in a legal manner because they did not take over any property.
know that people forcibly were deported from their homes in order to make room for these settlers?
A No, I already said that they were resettled. In how far this was done forcibly or voluntarily I did not know and don't know enough about it to judge it.
Q You were of the opinion that these people were going voluntarily?
A I don't think so. If I say they were resettled or deported, I mean that something happened here which had been planned, and I myself saw of my own-self how unpleasant it is to leave one's home and, therefore, cannot imagine that they went voluntarily, but I personally don't know anything about forced measures. not so voluntarily so that you knew that they were forced, do you not? You have just explained that to the Tribunal. into the SS by order of Himmler as the entire advisory agency for Baltic Germans was taken over by the Department for the Registration of Ethnic Germans, is that correct?
Q When exactly was that?
Q You were a civilian then, were you not?
Q How was your health at that time?
Q Would you have been fit for military service?
Q When you were taken over by the SS in December, 1939. did you voice any objections against this assignment?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not do this at the time for two reasons. First of all I did not understand the whole business, and secondly I only heard about the effects in February of the following year, 1940, when I was asked to go to Berlin and got my military equipment, Secondly, an objection would have been impossible as this was not only directed against me but against my ethnic group because Himmler would have considered this to be an impudence, and it would have had bad results. But I would like to say again here, as I emphasized during my direct examination, that in February, 1940, I received information that I was a wearer of uniform and, therefore, was not under any obligation. At the time this reassured me, perhaps mistakenly, and in March, 1940, I made an application to the Wehrmacht, and this application was replied to with the statement that I was indispensable.
Q To your reason No. 1, do you want to tell the Tribunal that in December, 1939, you did not know that you became a member of the SS, is that what you want to say?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, in that form, as I heard, it later, I did not know it at that time. national Socialist movement from, I think it was 1936, is that correct? movement from 1936 must have known in December 1939 what the SS was? Isn't it a fair assumption?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the conditions in Germany we did not know much about, and there was no connection with the SS as such, therefore one did not know much about it.
Q Did you know that the SS was a Party organization? were not drafted into the SS by the German State? a No, I was appointed to become an SS man by Himmler. that correct?
A But the command was in the hands of Himmler. At the time who was in charge of the strengthening of Germanism. advisory agency, would you have still become an SS man?
A I don't think so. could you not? a Yes, but I could not know that at the time.
Q That was not my question. You had the choice, did you? a I did not have the choice because I did not apply for this. I did not ask to be assigned; I did not ask to join; I was appointed here. I had no choice. membership in the SS was entirely voluntary. Will you tell the Tribunal whether you were drafted into the SS by the State so that you had no other choice, or whether you had a choice by leaving your position and so would have evaded to become a member of this organization? a Well, if I had known that Himmler would carry out this action, then I would have had to leave my job one day earlier, but since I did not know it I did not leave my job and therefore had no choice. ship of the SS by Himmler, is that what you want the Tribunal to believe? a Later in the summer of 1940 I wanted to volunteer for the Wehrmacht.
know, Witness, not what you did in summer 1940, about that we will speak later. for you to leave this position? SS, is that right?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot say anything else than what I have said before, I did not have this choice insofar as I was appointed that is, I was not asked. If I have a choice, I have to be asked. member of the SS and a member of an organization which belonged to an "S" formation, did you try to leave the SS - did you do that, "Yes" or "No"? request?
Q So you would have had the choice, would you have not? that time I did not realize the full importance of it because it would not have had effect against me but against the resettlers.
Q Why? himself and I have always stood in awe of him. that correct, you stayed there on your own free will?
A Yes. I only made one attempt to go to the Wehrmacht.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, my curiosity was peaked by his last answer that he always had a great respect for Mr. Himmler.