A Yes. Starting at the point that he as a former physician never had thought himself to change into such a service and only when he had joined he had been convinced of its necessity and thus he also wanted to persuade me to give up my futile--or at least he regarded them as futile-attempts to leave the RuSHA and to have himself transferred. I refused his offer, as I have alreadu said. I asked for my release.
Q Were there any other agencies in Charkow?
A Yes. I said Dr. Kranebitter was his kommando. There was also the term SK IVA as in the army territory--there were not supposed to be any commanding agecnies as they were in the territories of civil administration. And on the part of the Einsatzgruppe the solution was found in this manner, that Kranebitter, was appointed the deputy of Weinmann in special districts in order to legalize him.
Q What did you do in this army group? another attempts to join the army group direct, for the setting up of a partisan combat unit. Furthermore, I received the order-in discussions-concerning the taking up of reporting activities, for Office 6, but all counter intelligence agencies of the army resisted so that the discussions took weeks.
Q What did you do in the army? for the population of the town Charkow with the aid of the army supply officer, Lt. Col. Meyer and the counselors of the Supply Office IB.
Q What did you do in the self-administration?
A I found the following situation. In the course of a very severe winter, the population had hoarded their supplies, but they had used them up, and they had nothing to eat. The rear territory was only in the west of the city, and the counter-intelligence wanted to limit the transport to the country in the rear territory to a minimum to have to cutt off supplies therefore, I suggested that consumers' associations should be formed who had their own territories for purchases which, as there were no transport possibilities could not be seized by the army.
In this way 60 cooperative societies came into being and checks resulted in the fact that daily on the average 300 tons of food supplies were taken into the city. Simultaneously with the investigations of the secret field police, the misgivings of the counter-intelligence were allayed. In order to regulate the prices, price committees were established, and it was achieved by the army that daily 100,000 hot meals could be supplied to workers and their families from army rations.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I do not want to interrupt the witness again, but I do not think that this line of questioning will inform the Tribunal very much about the indictment, about the counts of the indictment and about the case before the Tribunal.
PRESIDENT: What are you trying to show by this line of questioning, Dr. Ratz, that they took care of the workers who were providing munitions for the German armed forces?
DR. RATZ: I want to clarify with this the activities of the defendant at that time in Charkow, what he did.
PRESIDENT: Well, do you want to establish by this line of testimony that the witness was concerned only with humanity ' with the feeling of the population, and that he was not at all concerned with the execution of Jews and saboteurs and looters and a-socialist and all those listed in the fuehrerorder. You are attempting to establish that contrast?
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I shall question him immediately as to his other task he had in Charkov. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Did you have this 300 tons of food supplies brought in yourself? food would be regulated, otherwise, the population of the town would have starved.
Q Did you see that some of this food went to the Jews? therefore, it went to the Jews also.
Q Did you see that some of it went to the Jews? of the food. soup from this 300 tons of food which you brought into Charkow?
Q You don't know where this food went ti, do you?
Q Did any of this food go to any Jewish family?
Q Did you see it being served to any Jewish family?
Q Well, how do you know that any Jews received this supply?
Q Well, you know also that Jews were being killed, don't you? You know that, don't you?
Q You do not know that Jews were being killed? them and then shoot them?
A I don't know anything about it, Your Honor, therefore, I can't say anything about it. was killing Jews, don't you? naturally follows, would you feed them and then shoot them?
Jews. I only took care that the civil administration, the municipal administration via their cooperative societies would receive food supplies. the Jews, did you?
Q No. Would you say that you are a person of humane impulses?
didn't you? body else, didn't you? I do not know. I would doubt that because the town was near to starvation. as much as you can do to a person, isn't it?
Q And you knew that they were being driven from their homes' you knew that didn't you?
A. No, that I did not know.
Q. You knew they were being put into ghettos in some instances, didn't you?
A. No, Your Honor, there were no ghettos in this sector.
Q. There were no ghettos because they were being executed right off the bat, is that the reason?
A. I cannot give any judgment as to this.
Q. well, then you stand on the statement that you yourself made no effort to see to it that any of these 300 tons of food went to any of these Jewish families?
A. I took care, Your Honor, that the cooperative societies were supplied with food and every citizen of this town could go to these; that this food was distributed in a just manner so that the town would not starve.
Q. What was the population of the town?
A. Three to four hundred thousand inhabitants.
Q. And you saw to it that every citizen of this 300,000 to 400,000 citizens got food, is that what you are telling us?
A. No, Your Honor.
Q. Isn't that what you just said, that you saw to it that every citizen got food, isn't that what you just said?
A. Your Honor, I urged the municipal administration that these foodstuffs should be distributed justly to everyone, but I did not supervise each individual receiving his share of it. I did not have the possibility to do it.
Q. No. Nor did you say to them, "Now, I want to make certain the Jewish people also are beneficiaries of this largess of the German armed forces". You didn't say that either, did you?
A. That I did not emphasize.
Q. No. You didn't even mention it?
A. In one meeting, we held we discussed a just distribution scheme and, whether, in this, there should be any additions or exceptions, and it was decided in this meeting that nobody should receive an additional ration or nobody should be omitted. This is what I mean, and this is what I mean when I speak about a just distribution.
Q. When you made your report to Berlin, did you say that you helped to feed Jews in Charkow?
A. No, Your Honor.
Q. Did you say that Jews were being fed in Charkow?
A. No, Your Honor.
Q. Can you honestly say today that you know of your own personal knowledge that one Jew received any of this food that you spoke about in Charkow from your own personal knowledge?
A. According to my own personal knowledge and experience, I cannot say that, I can only say that I urged the administrative bodies that the whole population should receive this food.
Q. It wouldn't have been very difficult for you to get into your vehicle and go to the Jewish section to see whether they were included as beneficiaries of this food distributing policy, would it?
A. Your Honor, I only went to Charkow temporarily for a very short time, and I always was very busy as people saw me about admin istrative functions and I wanted to see that I should achieve the best results with this distribution scheme.
Of course, I admit that I didn't do enough, but as it was not my task to deal with such matters at all, I believe that I did my utmost in this particular case. If I did not do enough, then it is not my fault.
PRESIDENT: Proceed. Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Did you, during your time in Charkow, have any other assignments?
A. No. I did not have time to make out reports or hardly any time because the Russians took up all my time and I had to deal with a number of problems for the army and with the army. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Were you with IVA as of November 30, 1941?
A. Yes, I was a member of Special Commando IVA. I was liaison officer with the Sixth Army.
Q. Did you know that by November 30, 1941, this commando had killed 59,318 people?
A. No, I did not, Your Honor.
Q. Do you know that that is in the report?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Do you know whether any of these 59,000 were given free food by the German armed forces before they were shot?
A. I don't know, Your Honor, I don't think so.
Q. Why was it necessary to feed these 300,000 when your commando was on the job of killing people--what difference did it make whether they lived or not, some of them were going to be shot anyway?
A. Your Honor, all I can say is that I arrived in Charkow then, and I saw the situation and found it my duty that I should help them. The Russians came and saw me about it, so I did.
Q. Did you help in any other Russian town to help to feed the population?
A. No.
Q. And you helped here because the Russians asked you, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Well were you now allied with Russia?
A. No, Your Honor.
Q. You were helping the enemy out of a chivalrous nature?
A. I don't think, Your Honor, that that Was the reason I was confronted with the situation. I was asked this request, and I helped,
Q. Why did you do it, just because they asked you?
A. Because I was asked for it, and the hardship of the inhabitants of this town was described to me.
Q. You were very much moved by the condition of the people of the city, is that what you are telling us?
A. Yes. I saw that this town sooner or later....
Q. But you figured that some might die of starvation, that is right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever help any Jew to escape execution just because you were moved by humane impulses?
A. Yes. I can mention an example.
Q. Give us the example.
A. In Shitemir I told the self-administrative authorities that the passes without which one could not move about freely or at least not go from one town to another without which one could not go from the town to the villages, for example, that these passes should be given to Jews who were asking for them without further ado, because the Jews would thus have the possibility to visit the country, and, there, to obtain food or to remain there, even. It was the mayor of Shitomir, a certain man called Gsatzenuk to when I repeatedly told this and who complied with this at least as long as it was under my supervision. Your Honor, it was only by such an indirect method that I could help at all, in any way whatsoever.
Q. Did you include this in your report to Berlin, that you urged that passes be given to Jews so that they could go out into the country and enjoy the fresh air? Did you include that in your report?
A. No. Your Honor. I certainly did not do anything of the sort.
Q. Did you tell your Kommando leader that you did this?
A. I certainly did not.
Q. Do you know whether the mayor actually did this or not?
A. Yes, he did comply with it, Your Honor.
Q. Were any Jews shot in Shitomir?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you help any of them not to be shot?
A. Through this measure, in this manner, numerous Jews could escape or leave the town.
Q. Did they escape?
A. They just left the town and did not return.
Q. Do you know that they actually left?
A. Yes, Your Honor, I know that.
Q. This mayor, what nationality was he?
A. He was a Ukranian.
Q. How did he feel about the Jews?
A. His attitude was altogether very humane.
Q. Well, that's the one instance you give us where you helped Jews? You got passes for them so that they could leave the city?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Proceed, Dr. Ratz.
DR. RATZ: I want to put a question, Your Honor, concerning the activity of the defendant in Charkow. I do not put this question in order to emphasize his activity as a special merit for the defendant, but only in order to clarify the fact of what he did during the time and to support the credibility of his statement that he did not take part in executions. BY DR. RATZ(Attorney for the Defendant Radetsky):
Q. Witness, you said that you took special care of the civil administration, especially concerning food supplies and that you thus supported the civilian population. Can you give us another example, Witness, of whether you also helped the population in other matters.
A. Yes, I also interested myself in the institution of agricultural societies because in my opinion that was the only way to help the farmers to regain their land.
Q. I now want to show you Document Book III-.C, page 51 of the German, -
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Page 34, of the English, Your Honor. That is in the middle of the page, I think, above the heading "Page 16 of the original".
Q. (Continued) It is Document NO-3237, Exhibit No. 138, Report of Events 187 of the 30th of March 1942, under "Einsatzgruppe C, Garrison, Kiew," and under the caption, "Communists." It is said there that "Within the framework of the defense measures ordered for the city of Charkov, and in order to prevent the increase of dangerous Bolshevist influence, security police measures have been taken against members of the Communist Party in those districts of the city which are particularly affected.
At this occasion 236 persons could be arrested and interrogated. 193 persons were established as being agitators and dangerous, disintegrating elements, and were shot. In the same way 64 Jews were treated who were equipped with falsified passports, were hiding, or could be established as carriers of disintegrating rumors in connection with the enemy propaganda." Do you know anything about these events?
A. No, I do not know anything about these shootings nor did I have anything to do with them, I want to point out that the commander of the Security Police, Dr. Kranebitter was also in Charkov at the same time, and, as far as I can see the situation, he was responsible for police measures at that time. The defense state of Charkow had not started in March, as mentioned here, but it was not in effect when I was there and the front was absolutely quiet at that time and the actual operations only began againat the beginning of May.
Q. When did you leave Charkow?
A. At the end of May or beginning of June, 1942, after the Timoschenko offensive had failed. We advanced and the kommando got the sector.
Q. What was your assignment?
A. I was assigned as a liaison officer to the Second German and Second Hungarian Army.
Q. What were the objectives of this Army?
A. The Upper Don River.
Q. Did you hold any special assignments on this occasion?
A. No, everything had been settled.
Q. When was Weinmann released and who was put in his place?
A. Weinmann was replaced in 1942 in the middle of August and Steimle was put in charge of the kommando.
Q. What did you do when Steimle was commanding?
A. Under Steimle's command I was liaison officer with the Second Army. Also it was my assignment to maintain liaison with the Second Hungarian Army.
Q. The prosecution asks Steimle on the 6th of November 1947, -it is in the record, German text page 2072 ' the question whether the reason for your wanting to leave the kommando was because you were bored with the activity. Will you please comment on this.
A. This assumption is without any basis. I have repeatedly wanted to leave the kommando. Also I have explained that this had been my attitude from the very beginning.
Q. In Document Book III-B on page 69 of the German, it is NO-3842, Exhibit 119, Affidavit Steimle, it says that you, Witness, were held in high esteem.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I am sorry, Your Honor. I do not have the English Document book.
THE INTERPRETER: Page 39, Your Honor, I believe.
THE PRESIDENT: That's where it begins.
Q. (Continued) It is the last page of the affidavit Steimle. It is page 4 of the original-How am I to understand your utterance? -It is page 42.
A. I cannot say of myself whether I was liked or whether I was disliked, but I was held in esteem by the Army, because it was well known that, if I was able to do so, I was always with the front unit and that 1 had destroyed a tank on one occasion and that I was held in esteem by the officers as a soldier as they knew that I would have liked to join the Wehrmacht.
Q. When did you leave the SK 4 A?
A. When Steimle left; Sturmbannfuehrer Schmidt, the man who had been his deputy until then, took over the kommando. I had meanwhile seen that Schulz had become Personnel Referat in the Reich Security Main Office and therefore he had been appointed my superior chief in Berlin.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you give us the date, please?
THE WITNESS: That was in the middle of January, 1943.
A. (Continued) I entertained hopes of having myself released from the war emergency status. In addition, there was another factor: That was my promotion. I joined the Einsatzgruppe where I spoke to Gruppenfuehrer Thomas and asked him to be released. We had a heated dispute in the course of which he kicked me out. On the next day he asked me to come to see him again, as I had expressly asked him to receive me again. He released me as far as he was concerned, but he also warned me that I should not go too far in Berlin in order not to contract the wrath of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD.
Q. Could you then ask for your release in Berlin?
A. Yes, I made out a request and I went to see Schulz who had meanwhile been appointed Chief of Office I. I could expect him to see my point. Schulz told me that he would support me. However, he told me that according to the regulations in effect nobody could be released from his war emergency status and that the decision was with the Chief of the Reich Security Main Office to whom he would send my request with his own personal approval.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, I questioned the Defendant Schulz concerning these matters on the 20th of October, 1947, page 1061 of the German record.
Q. (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, did you take any other steps?
A. Yes, Office VI had wanted to employ me even before that time and a discussion was held with Schellenberg in the course of which he, Schellenberg, promised me that if my request for release would not be granted, he would arrange to take me over in his office for a job in the Foreign Information Service.
Q. Were these interviews successful?
A. No, my request was refused and Schellenberg did not get in touch with me again. Thus in the middle of March 1943 I had to return to Russia.
THE PRESIDENT: Just before he goes back to Russia suppose we have a breathing spell of fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. SUESS (DEPUTIZING FOR DR. DURCHHOLZ FOR THE DEFENDANT SCHULZ): The Witness, August Haefner of the prosecution on the 13th of December at twelve o'clock was asked to come, for a discussion on Wednesday the 17th of December at 1300 hours. Captain Reiz from the Defense Center has affixed to the bulletin board for the defense counsels a publication with the date of 16 December, according to which witnesses of the prosecution may not be asked to come for discussions after 1600 hours. This witness Haefner is supposed to be taken away from the court house on the 18th of December -- that is the day after tomorrow- and will not be available to us any mere after that date. I would like to ask politely to make it possible for us that we may talk to this witness at 1800 hours, as an exception, tomorrow, the 17th of December.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the Witness Haefner.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: H-a-e-fn-e-r, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: For whom?
DR. SUESS: For Durchholz for the Defendant Schulz.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. SUESS: I have the request here which was given back to me. I would like to give a copy to the prosecution.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Possibly Dr. Suess can tell us whether it could not be possible to talk to the witness at an earlier hour We have no interrogators and no personnel at our disposal at that late hour. It is extremely hard to get them transportation to go home and so on and so on. We, of course, have no objections that the witness may be interrogated by Dr. Durchholz. We only would suggest whether it would not be possible that an earlier hour nay be chosen for this interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: Why couldn't you make the hour earlier?
DR. SUESS: we have to book the witness a few days before hand Your Honor, and, at the moment, Herr Durchholz works as defense counsel in Case VIII where his client is on the witness stand now and therefore he cannot get away during the session and cannot talk to the witness during court hours, but he would like to talk to him personally. While court is in session, it is difficult to ask the witness to come earlier.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I do think, Your Honor, there would still be a possibility to start the interrogation at 4:30; that means at 1630, instead of 1800 hours which would make it very much easier for us to provide an interrogator for this interrogation.
THE PRESIDENT: How about 1645, allowing him time to leave the court room.
DR. SUESS: I am very much obliged; thank you very much, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: That would be satisfactory then to you, 1645?
DR. SUESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT. Mr. Hochwald, will you take care of the mechanics of it?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I do think, Your Honors, that I cannot give any orders to the Defense Information Center. I do think it would be necessary that the Secretary-General informs them.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General is informed that the Tribunal approves of Dr. Durchholz interrogating the Witness Haefner for the Defendant Schulz on December 17 at 1645 and the Secretary General will please make all arrangements necessary to see that this recommendation of the Tribunal is executed.
DR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: I thank you.
MR. HOCHWALD: I take this as the official information to the prosecution that the interrogation will take place at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you are correct.
DR. SUESS: Thank you very much, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You are very welcome.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, you just said in the middle of March, 1943, you had to return to Russia what kind of instructions did you get then? had to make reports about the Partisan situation in collaboration with the G-2 of the Corps, and the office of the Commander of the Security Police in Chernikov, and also I had to make SD reports.
Q When did you leave there? 1943. I was assigned as part of the 12th Tank Army, and I was wounded in the head. I was sent to the hospital and from there into an Army recovery home.
Q How long were you in this A., my recuperation home?
A I was there for about ten days. Then I got my orders to go home in order to have special treatment there. I received a teletype message here that I was to go to Lemberg immediately. There I received an order from Sturmbannfuehrer of Office I to report to Einsatzgruppe B to be utilized as liaison officer with 2d Army and the 8th Hungarian Corps, I asked for my release again. Also, I had not yet completely recovered and I was told again that according to the regulations I could not be released.
Q What was your work there and how long were you active there? Partisan situation I had to make reports, as in my previous work and forward these reports to the G-2 of the Einsatzgruppe. These sources were those agencies of the 2d Army and the 8th Hungarian Corps. I continued this activity until the beginning of January, 1944
Q Did you have to carry out any other functions as well? administration remained the same. The officers of the Security Police and the SD and the District Commissar's offices worked in the same manner as before. My task, the Partisan reconnaisance and seizure of reports of the enemy, completely took up my time. Sonderkommandos?
Q Where did you go then? was assigned to the Group 6 C. I remained there until the end of the war. I once made a report for American agencies about this work. I think it would lead too far to talk about this here in detail. It is at the Tribunal's or the prosecution's disposal at any time if they should be interested in it. SS and did you work there? might have prolonged the war in Austria.
A Whether the latter would have come true I cannot judge. In any case, in March of 1945 I saw to it that a Russian regiment in the Karawank mountains would gain contact with the Western Allies and in the upper Austrian territory I saw to it that a volunteer corps was prevented from being set up, which was supposed to be 15,000 men strong, after I had heard that they were going to fight against the Western powers. from your war emergency status?
were refused, and my superior said that I was a defeatist.
Q When did you become a prisoner of war in American hands? over of the Russian staff to which I was attached, I received an order, from a supplementary office of the Waffen-SS, to report to the LHA, and an entry in my pay book was made accordingly. I reported on 10 May 1945 in Mauerkirchen in Austria to the first American camp which I came across. officially.
Q what did you do in internment? since about June, 1946 approximately, I worked as apprentice in the carpenter's workshop, and in November of this year I wanted to pass an examination as carpenter. ment in the East from December, 1941 until March, 1942 and from January until March, 1943, what did you do then? tried to be released from my war emergency status and also during that time I worked in the resettlement advisory office to which I belonged until the end of the war. Here I tried to help a -number of families and individuals who had been endangered for racial or political reasons and had saved them from persecution. I did this because at the time I had taken care of these people already before my call up and did not want to leave them to their fate. My connection with these people had the eventual result that I myself got into trouble. But, I can say today that not even one of this comparatively large group of of persons was ever sent to a concentration camp because of their race or because of their political attitude.
My attitude can be shown from this. you tried to be released from the war emergency status?
THE PRESIDENT: It is enough if he gives us the number of times. He doesn't need to relate each particular attempt again.
A I tried this eleven times; in July, 1941; beginning of August, 1941; end of September, 1941; in December, 1941; in February, 1942; in March, 1942, in January, 1943; in February, 1943; in October, 1943; in July, 1944; and in March, 1945.
Q My final question in the direct examination to you, witness: did you do anything in order to oppose consequences as you had become aware of them beyond your personal interests. in a strong rejection by Himmler, and my memoranda to the Eastern Ministry at the time, in my economic reports to the Army Offices I tried to influence in an indirect manner the general attitude. Beyond that, since the fall of 1941 I looked for contact and found it in human beings who seemed willing to avoid a political catastrophe and to look for a connection with the Western Allies. Because of this and my work for persecutees for racial and political reasons, I personally had difficulties which increased towards the end of the war. I could not use my influence beyond a small circle, but I tried in my situation at the time to do everything I could possibly do.
DR. RATZ: Your Honor, my direct examination is now concluded.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any member of defense counsel desire to cross examine? Mr. Hochwald, you may proceed with the cross examination. Oh, just a moment, Mr. Hochwald.
KRAUSE for the defendant Haensch:
Q. Witness, you said that at the time when you came to Charkow the commander of Sonderkommando 4-A was the Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Weinmann?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know when Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Weinmann took over the command of Sonderkommando 4-A?
A. I cannot give the exact date but it must have been the middle of March.
Q. The middle of March?
A. In any case he arrived a few days before me.
Q. And when did you arrive?
A. I arrived about the 15 or 16 of March.
Q. As you said you were on leave and then you returned?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed Mr. Hochwald. BY MR. HOCHWALD: which was just put to you. When did you leave Berlin to go to Charkow?
A. I did not leave Berlin but Posen the beginning of March.
Q. First of March?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot give you an exact reply to this.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us always have the year especially when you initiate an inquiry.
Q. It was 1942, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. I am sorry, your Honor. How long did your journey take?