Q. Witness, as I understood, you said you know what was to be done with list but didn't know about the execution. Now did you say you didn't know what was to be done with this list which you gave the Kommandofuehrer?
A. Yes, I knew, owing to the Fuehrer order, I knew that functionaries were to be shot. Of course, I knew that but it was my task to utilize and to look into the material which I found and to hand it on and I did this. What happened with the list and whether Rausch, the chief of the Kommando, evaluated them I don't know because I heard nothing about shootings. Whether Rausch later handed on the list I don't know and I didn't hear.
Q. So you never heard anything about shootings by Sonderkommando VII-B during the time you were there, is that correct?
A. In the time until I arrived in Minsk, that is 9 July 1941, those were the first three weeks when the Kommando existed and I did not hear anything about shootings then.
Q. I want to draw your attention to Document Book II_B, page 25 of the English, page 26 of the German, document NO_2844. Here near the top of the page in the English copy it discusses the activities by Sonderkommando VII-B and it says among other things that 20 Jews who had been active as Communists were also executed. It is on page 26 of the German, witness.
A. Where is this, please?
Q. Page 26 of the German, page 25 of the English, top of the page of the English copy. How, so you know anything about those executions?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, it says here that a unit of Sonderkommando VII-B in Tschautzy carried out search actions for Communist functionaries. As far as I can remember Sonderkommando VII-B was in Tschautzy after the time in Minsk. Therefore, on that occasion I could not have been in Sonderkommando VII-B anymore. The report is dated 4 September 1941.
Q. You mean at that time you were in V.K. Moscow, is that correct?
A. Yes, at that time. That is correct.
Q. Please now, turn to the next page, page 26 of the English, page 28 of the German, and you will see that Vorkommando Moskau was executing people, too.
Now you have just told us that at this time you were in Vorkommando Moskau. Here the report says that 46 persons were executed, 38 people among them being intellectual Jews by V.K.M. Do you know anything about this?
A. In my direct examination I made statements as to this - that I did not hear anything about these executions, because I had nothing to do with these executive tasks.
Q. So you don't know anything about this?
A. I do not know that 38 intellectual Jews were shot in Smolensk.
Q. Do you know that any Jews were shot by Vorkommando Moskau while you were there?
A. While I was in Advance Kommando Moskau of course I know that executions were carried out by the Department for Jewish Affairs. Of course, I know that. I said that I know that the groups staff and also the Advanced Kommando Moskau constantly carried out executions, and operations. I never denied that. But I do not know the details.
Q. We will come to the details shortly as concerns this particular execution. However, you say you know nothing. is that correct?
A. No, I did not know anything.
Q. But you were in Vorkommando Moskau at that time, were you not?
A. Yes, I was in Advanced Kommando Moskau.
Q. Who was the commanding officer of Vorkommando Moskau at that time?
A. That was Brigadefuehrer Nebe.
Q. Were you his deputy?
A. I was appointed deputy but never carried out that function
Q. What were the dates when you were with Vorkammando Moskau?
A. I belonged to Vorkommando Moskau, (Advanced Kommando Moskau,) from the day it was set up, that is 10 or 11 June 1941, until the middle of September 1941, until that time when the new Kommando leader came and took it over from Nebe. Then I was released.
Q. Now on page 27 of the same document you have before you, that is document No-2844, it says that Vorkommando VII-B killed 886 people as per 20 August and staff in Vorkommando Moskau killed 144.
That's on page 29 of the German. You were during that time either in Vorkommando VII-B or in Vorkommando Moskau, is that correct?
A. Until 9 June 1941 I was in the I was in Sonderkommando VII-B.
Q. So that up to the 20 August you were in either one of these two groups?
A. Either/or, yes.
Q. You have told us --
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, Judge Dixon calls attention to a matter of Chronology here. The witness stated that he was with the Kommando VII-B from June 22 to July 10 1941. Then another occasion that he was with Vorkommando Moskau from June 10 to September 15, of to the middle of September; from June 20 to September 15 - oh, June 10 or June 11 - which is correct?
A. From the beginning, 22 June when the Kommando VII-B was set up until 9 July I was in VII-B and that in Minsk on 10 to 11 July in Minsk I came to Advance Kommando Moskau and was in Advanced Kommando Moskau until the middle of September.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, that clears it up.
groups and between the two of them they killed over one thousand people. Of about how many of these executions did you have knowledge?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I have already explained during the direct examination that in the time when I belonged to Sonderkommando 7b I did not hear of any executions. It, therefore, can be assumed that the figure of the total executions of the Sonderkommando 7b occurs during the time between Minsk, when they were active in Minsk, until 20 August. after you left the kommando, Sonderkommando 7b?
Q I see. Then the two executive sections of Vorkommando 7b, or Sonderkommando 7b, did nothing while you were a member of that kommando, or were they writing reports too?
A Well, they didn't do it and didn't have time to do it because the kommando was always en route until they came to Minsk. Those were the first three weeks of the assignment. to carry out executions, one to write reports, that this was the theory and the practice during the time you were there, but now you say they didn't actually carry out executions during your time, they were always marching, so it was just a theory then? for those three days in Brest-Litowsk, and there in Brest-Litowsk I did not hear anything, that any executions occurred there.
Q Now, Witness, you have just contradicted yourself. When I asked you a few minutes before whether the organization of two to carry out executions and one to write reports was theory or practice, you said it was theory and practice. Now you have told us that the two who were supposed to carry out executions were marching all the time instead and therefore it was only theory and not practice. Now, which of these two answers do you now hold to be correct?
A Well, I don't know; I didn't say that. had said previously? route and, therefore, had no opportunity of being stationed anywhere for any length of time. That is what I said. it theory and practice that two were to carry out executions, and you answered to that question, yes, it was both the theory and the practice that they carried out executions. Now you change your answer and say, no, it was just a theory, they never got down to it because they were marching, is that correct? of any executions. That is all I can tell you.
Q That is not my question; that is not my question. My question is, do you now change your testimony to say that it was just theory about the organization of these three groups in Sonderkommando 7b, that they didn't actually carry out executions during your time? time.
Q You have just told is a minute ago that they didn't carry out executions, and your explanation for these 886 people killed was that it happened after you left. Now, are you saying again that it did happen while you were there? start at the time when the kommando had left Minsk. That is when they came to the territory of the action.
THE PRESIDENT: What I think the prosecution desires to learn from you is whether these executions did take place before you left 7b. You say that you didn't hear of them. Do you exclude the possibility that they may have occurred without your being aware of them?
THE WITNESS: That possibility I do not exclude, your Honor. It is possible that executions occurred, might have occurred in Brest-Litowsk, for example, where the kommando was stationed for three days, but I personally did not hear of any executions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you think that so extraordinary a thing as the killing of eight hundred people could happen and you would not know about it, be done by your own organization and yet you be entirely ignorant of it?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, these are not 886 people. What I mean is that possibly from Brest-Litowsk the executive troops possibly carried out a few executions. They might have done this, but not that 886 people were shot in Brest-Litowsk. I merely maintain that the executions were apparently carried out after I was relieved from the kommando because while belonging to Sonderkommando 7b in the time from 22nd June until 10th or 11th july - first June, then July - I did not hear of any executions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1130 hours. )
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. Klingelhoefer, I draw your attention to Document Book IIB, page 53 of the English, page 47 of the German, Document No. 3143. There we have the total of liquidations as of 13 September 1941. You were with the Vorkommando Moscow from the 20th of August until the 13th of September 1941, were you not?
A. I was in the Advance Commando Moscow during the period covered by the report, Yes, from the 20th of August until the 13th of September.
Q. Do you remember the 20th of August report gave the total number killed as 144, whereas up to the 13th of September it had advanced to 312? Now, of these additional persons killed, how many did you receive knowledge of?
A. Out of this number I had direct knowledge, as I have already said in my direct examination, of those executions in Matislawl and Tatarsk which were carried out by Noack. Once it was 30 in Matislawl, and 20 in Tatarsk. These are the only direct numbers which became known to me.
Q. In other words, of 168 people killed, you only had knowledge of about 50, is that correct?
A. 50, Yes.
Q. And did anyone ever discuss with you the more than 100 others who were killed?
A. Of course, it was known to me, as I have already said in my direct examination, that the Group Staff as well as the Advance Commando Moscow carried out executions currently and, of course, shootings took place. This is in general, but in detail, I know nothing but these two figures.
PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, the witness has stated that there were 20 killed in Tatarsk. Yesterday he said 30. I don't know if there is just a slip in transmission, but I would like to keep these records straight from my own book here.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, we will go into detail in the Tatarsk executions very shortly. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. It is true, isn't it, Witness, that you just stated that there were 20 killed in Tatarsk?
A. In the first case, Yes, but there were two executions in Tatarsk.
Q. But you just said that there were two executions, one in Matislawl, and one in Tatarsk--Matislawl 30, and Tatarsk 20. Now, do you want to add another?
A. For the period covered by the report to the 13th of September 1941, this is merely the figure of 312 executions which we are discussing. For this period I only know these two executions which were carried out by Noack in Tatarsk and Matislawl. These were these Jewish actions by Noack on the basis of the Fuehrerorder.
Q. Very well. I draw your attention now to page 48 of the English, the same document, the same Document Book, page 43 of the German. There you have enumerated the killing of Jews by Vorkommando Moscow in the different places. The report says that, "A commando of the Vorkommando caused all Jews in these villages to be marked, transferred into a ghetto, forced to work and registered by names; it also shot the existing Jewish council and another 20 Jews."
A. May I ask where this is?
Q. On page 43 of the German, page 33 of the original.
A. Yes, I have got it.
Q. You were in the Vorkommando Moscow at that time, were you not?
A. Yes, I was in the Advance Commando Moscow.
Q. Do you know anything about this particular action or these two actions?
A. No. I do not know anything about it.
Q. Did you ever hear about it from anybody in the commando?
A. I heard--I know that Noack, as I have already mentioned, was the expert for Jewish questions for which Mebe had appointed him and that he carried out these executions and I assume that he carried out these actions, too, in Choslawitschi.
Q. So your answer to this document is, "Noack did it", is that correct? Your explanation to this particular document is that Noack did it, is that correct?
A. Yes. I have no idea about this.
Q. Incidentally, where is Noack?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know whether he is dead?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you hear testify in this court that he is dead?
A. No.
Q. Were you here when the defendant, Naumann, was testifying?
A. Yes, I was here.
Q. And you don't recall him saying that Noack is known to be dead?
A. I do not know, No.
Q. I would now like you to turn to Document Book IIB, page 18; it is page 17 of the German; it is page 13 of the original document. There again you have an action by Vorkommando Moscow in which 114 Jews were killed. Do you know anything about this particular actions?
A. No, I know nothing about this action either since, as I have already mentioned, I was only in the Advance Commando Moscow until the middle of September. As for the few days which fall into this report beyond this period, I must say the same, I have said before, that I had nothing to do with these matters and that only Noack was competent for this matter. I did not know in detail who carried out this action, and where and how it was carried out, therefore, it can also be assumed that this action in Choslawitschi already took place under the leadership of koerting and at this time I did not belong to Advance Commando Moscow any longer.
Q. Well, you said you were a member of Advance Commando Moscow until the 15th of September 1947?
A. Until the middle of September, Yes.
Q. And this document is dated the 9th of October.
A. Yes, 9th of October.
Q. You have heard many of the defendants explain that the date of the reports was always a few weeks after the actual event, so that this particular event would have taken place in September, is that correct?
A. Yes, but may I point out that when compiling the total figures, the deadline of the 28th of September is given at the end, therefore, this must be the period between the 13th of September 1941 and the 28th of September 1941, since the preceding compilation is mentioned as of the 13th of September. Therefore, I conclude, as I must conclude, that this action took place within this period of time.
Q. In any event, you say this was done by Noack, is that correct?
A. In any case, I must say if Noack didn't do it, it must have been Koerting.
Q. Now, I raw your attention -
A. I had nothing to do with actions.
Q. I draw your attention to page 21 of the same document--page 21 of the German, which gives the total killed as of September 28. Now, you say that you were with the Vorkommando Moscow from the 20th of August through the middle of September. We have the total here of over 2,000 people killed during most of that period or just a few days over. Of these 2,000 who were killed, how many of them did you assist in killing?
A. I didn't assist in any of them.
Q. You had knowledge about how many killed during that period?
A. In the period of what?
Q. From the 20th of August.
A. Yes. I have already mentioned that I had direct knowledge for this entire period of time of the two executions in Matislaw and Tatarsk by Noack, one is 30, and one is 20.
Q. That would mean that of these 2,000 or more people killed you had knowledge of only 50, is that correct?
A. Directly, Yes.
Q. And indirectly?
A. Indirectly, I knew in general that the group staff itself, as well as the advance commando Moscow continually carried out executions. Of course, I knew this.
Q. You say "continually carried out executions", you mean by that as long as they existed they were busy killing people in accordance with the Fuehrerorder, is that correct?
A. Yes. Well, by "continually", I meant during this period of time. I don't know whether it happened every day. Other executions were carried out, too, outside of the Fuehrerorder.
Q. Now, let us turn now to your affidavit which is in Document Book IIIB, page 57, page 105 or 112 of the German copy. Do you remember the circumstances under which you gave this affidavit on the 2nd of July?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any duress in connection with the taking of this affidavit?
A. No.
Q. Was there any threat made in connection with the taking of this affidavit?
A. No.
Q. Was there any threat made in connection with the taking of this affidavit?
A. No.
Q. Was there any promise of immunity made in connection with the taking of this affidavit?
A. Promise for reward--No. May I add something?
Q. Yes.
A. But upon my objections against certain phraseologies which I made, Mr. Wartenberg told me that I would have the possibility of correcting these incorrect formulations at another day. I was told this. And after I had objected to these formulations, I gave my signature because I had this statement by Mr. Wartenberg.
Q. Were you reminded before you signed this statement that you were under oath?
A. I was put under oath before, Yes.
Q. And was the oath administered to you just before you signed it, and doesn't it appear at the end of the affidavit?
A. The oath was administered to me as soon as I entered the room, without anything being told me before I entered the room, and Mr. Wartenberg was standing and immediately administered the oath to me. That was the first thing that I heard Mr. Wartenberg say.
Q. Were you given the opportunity to make changes and corrections in the statement?
A. Of course, I did, but only in the small details. But as far as more important objections which I made, I was told that this was not necessary now, and I would have an opportunity to make these corrections later. This was told to me. Thereupon, I said, "Well, under these circumstances, I am prepared to sign this affidavit in this form, if I will have an opportunity to correct it later.": and I got this later. Of course, I was very excited.
Q. You swore at that time when you signed the affidavit that the affidavit was true, did you act?
A. I signed this affidavit, of course, because I tried to tell the truth to the best of my knowledge and belief, which I then had. I was interrogated so quickly that I had no time to think over these matters and really to remember all these things. Thus, I said whatever I remembered at the moment.
Q. Was this affidavit given to you to sign the first time you spoke to Mr. Wartenberg?
A. No. The first time I saw Mr. Wartenberg before, the day before, the 1st of June.
Q. So, at least one day elapsed between the time you spoke to Mr. Wartenberg and the time you signed this affidavit?
A. Yes, and on the second day I even made additions, after I used this interval to think the matter over and think about what I might have forgotten.
Q. Now, we have just gone over the reports which show that the Vorkommando Moscow between August and September, together with the Group Staff killed about 2,000 people. In this affidavit which you made and swore to, you stated, and I quote from paragraph 1: "Professor Dr. A. Six, who led this unit at that time, was recalled to Berlin in August 1941, and during August/ September 1941 I acted as his deputy and led this unit".
A. Yes, and that is just one of the points to which I objected, Mr. Prosecutor. During my interrogation I stated that I did not command the unit, but Nobe commanded It, and that I had been designated as his deputy, but that all orders and instructions were given by Nobe. These were my words. It was formulated in this way, and I said that this isn't correct, I was never commander of Advance Commando Moscow, I was only his deputy, therefore, I was told that this was not so important, so essential, and that I could correct this later on, and I did that in my second affidavit.
Q. In other words, your statement--your sworn statement of this affidavit is which you state that you led the Vorkommando Moscow is false?
A. It is incorrect, and I corrected it accordingly or objected to it.
Q. Yet you signed this affidavit knowing that it contained an incorrect statement, is that correct?
A. I signed it with reservations on the basis of the promise given to me.
Q. And you did have the opportunity to make corrections, however?
A. I had the opportunity to make corrections, but not this correction.
Q. Are you trying to say that you said to Mr. Wartenberg, "Here, I want to correct this mistake because this mistake would mean that I killed 2,000 people", and Mr. Wartenberg said, "No, don't correct that, you will do that some other time", is that what you are trying to tell the Tribunal?
A. It is not a matter of the 2,000 people, Mr. Prosecutor, it is merely about the commando of a unit, which I was to have led allegedly, but which I did not command, and I clarified this, that I never personally commanded the commando, but I was a deputy without performing its function. I corrected this in my second affidavit.
Q. Your second affidavit was made after you had received the indictment, is that correct?
A. The second affidavit was made after I got the indictment, Yes, because before that I had no opportunity.
Q. Didn't you state in your interrogation, that is before you received the indictment, that you led the Vorkommando Moscow until September--Yes or No, then you can explain it?
A. It says here, Yes.
Q. But you also stated it in your interrogation the day before-
A. No. In my interrogation I described the matter differently.
Q. Allow me to read to you a question to refresh your memory. I will read it in the German from the transcript:
"Q Thus you headed it from August until when?
A Until September."
COURT II CASE IX Do you remember that?
A. Yes. the deputy leadership--as long as I belonged to the Advance Commando Moscow, I was the deputy, but I did not perform my duties as a deputy. That is that point which I objected to in the affidavit.
Q. Why did you sign the affidavit, which stated that you had the opportunity to make corrections, that you swore that it was true when you knew that on a vital point that it was false?
A. I called his attention to this very important point, and I was told that it was not so important, I would get the opportunity later to correct these mistaken formulations and errors.
Q. So that on that simple statement-
A. I was in such a state of mind at the time that I relied on this, and I signed it under the--with the reservation that I would later be allowed to correct this, and I did so at the next occasion which I had.
Q. Isn't that a little naive?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I was at that time is a state of mind which one could not call naive.
Q. Why were you in such a state of mind?
A. Because I was very excited, and that is very clear. I had had so many experiences in these two years I had been interned after the collapse, and I experienced so many disappointments and misfortunes that I was so excited, and when I was transported to Nuernberg I did not know what was coming, and after I arrived here, one hour later I was called to interrogation. I was immediately brought into a room. Immediately they said, "Raise your right hand and awear", and I was so mixed up that I didn't have all my logical thinking in order.
commanded the Vorkommando Moscow, you gave him the dates, and you didn't change the testimony between then and the next day when you -dates so that the prosecution had to make a correction. where you state concerning the executions in Tatarsk, the first one, the executions proper were carried out by Noack under my supervision. vision and I discussed this concept with Mr. Wartenberg in detail. I said right away I had no mission to supervise. that it was under your supervision. After you thought it over, and, particularly, after you got the indictment and the documents, you discovered it is a false statement. the first moment and I always said, "This is not correct. I did not supervise" and that's the same thing -- I got the same answer. I could correct all these matters later on. make corrections. You stated here on the stand that you had had the opportunity to make corrections. Why didn't you make that correction?
A Because I was told that these corrections were not necessary. I could make these corrections later, at a later date. I signed it with this reservation.
Q What corrections did you make?
A I do not know. I do not have the copy here.
A You mean, objections made which were not corrected?
Q No, no. I mean, which corrections did you make actually in the affidavit?
changed, as far as I remember. when you came to the important parts as to who supervised the executions, and who was in command during the time that these thousands of executions were carried out, you didn't make changes, you signed it, saying you had the opportunity to make corrections, saying that it was correct and waited for a later chance, is that who you want us to believe?
A Yes, because Mr. Wartenberg expressly told me that I would have an opportunity to correct these matters later, that I would get a chance to do so.
Q Now turn to Paragraph 4. This discusses your second execution in Tatarsk. In it you stated that "I had the remaining Jews, approximately 30, shot. I carried out this order to prevent these people from joining the partisans. Although I had orders to shoot women and children too, I did not comply with this part of the order." Now, you are going to tell us, aren't you, that this again is wrong and here you wanted to change it, but Mr. Wartenberg said "Some other time", and you said, "Yes, Sir", and you state everything in this affidavit is false. Is that what you intend to say?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not object to this point. Jews shot?
A I had the 30 men in Tatarsk who remained shot. It was for the reasons which I mentioned yesterday in my direct examination.
Q Didn't you say yesterday in your direct examination that you didn't have all of them shot? You just had the guilty ones shot. Jews remaining in Tatarsk were guilty.
Q Then all the Jews were guilty. There were none innocent and therefore you had them all shot, but all after a careful trial, of course?
guilty, of course. Hitler had ordered all Jews to be killed? I had the order to examine the messages of the Mayor of Tatarsk and after investigating the matter to execute the guilty ones. That was my mission. I did not have an assignment to carry out a Jewish execution on the basis of the Fuehrer Order. killed and that order was given to all Einsatzkommandos, did you not? had you not? Hitler had ordered that all Jews were to be killed and you had sworn to follow his orders? I was not a commando leader. I could not give the order on my own initiative. That was only a matter of a decision for a commando leader. I was a member of the Group Staff at the time. My chief of the Einsatzgruppe only gave me the order to investigate this subject carefully and then to shoot the guilty ones.
Q It's just a coincidence, isn't it, that they were all guilty?
A No, that is no coincidence. That was exactly determined.
Q What would you have done to an innocent one?
A I have already said that yesterday. If I had found an innocent one, I would not have shot him. I would have put him back in the Ghetto, the same as I did with the women and children.
Q Now, the same as you did with the women and children. You stated in your affidavit that you did not shoot any women and children. Let me draw your attention again to Document Book II-B, page 54 of the English, page 48 of the German. Let me read you "As punishment for not following the orders of the German Security Police, all male Jews and the three women who were in Tatarsk at that time were shot." Now you told us that you studied reports for a long time; while everybody was killing Jews you were busy studying reports. Now study this one and tell us what your interpretation of that report is.
A I never studied the other reports, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q You are trying to apalogize for making your affidavit?
A I don't understand your question.
Q I am just asking you: Study this report. Here it says that "all male Jews and the three women who were in Tatarsk at that time were shot". You stated that no women were shot. Here it says that three women were shot. What is your explanation for the discrepancy?
A I have already given this explanation yesterday, Mr. Prosecutor. I had forgotten all about these three women. I cannot give you any other explanation. have mentioned these three women, because I had no reason to keep it from you. There was an investigation. According to the instructions, the women were found guilty so why should I have some reason to keep this from you? remember it in great detail that the women were very ugly, that they had been the contact between the males and the partisans, isn't that correct?