Now you say you did, which one is the truth?
Q. Well, I said, as I expressed it before, I said that Rausch said ---
Q. No, no.
A. --that the Soviet Union -
Q. I am just asking you --
A. --that the Soviet Union rejected all these laws, and, therefore, we would have to conduct the war very ruthlessly, and that the Wehrmacht -
Q. Just a moment. I am not asking you to repeat the whole story. I read the question to you. You said to me, "I didn't say that." The President of the Tribunal read the same quotation to you, and asked you if you said that, and you said, yes, you did say that, Now your answer is, well --
DR. MAYER: Your Honor, I believe that question is settled, through the reply the witness made to the President's question.
Mr. FERENCZ: Your Honor, there are two contradictory replies. I am just trying to find out which one the defendant intends to rest.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let's ask him it direct. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. Your answer is correct in the reply to the President, that you did say that, or the reply that you gave me, that you didn't say that, which is it?
A. Well, the reply that I made to the President is right.
Q. Thank you. You were also told at that time that Hitler had ordered that all Jews, Gypsies and Political functionaries were to be shot, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you take an oath of allegiance to obey the orders of your Fuehrer?
A. Yes, I swore an oath like every one else.
Q. You also stated that you noticed that all the persons who heard the order had a certain conflict in their feelings, just as you did, is that correct?
DR. MAYER: Your Honor, I believe I can clear up this misunderstanding. It is due to a translation mistake. The witness said -
MR. FERENCZ: Pardon me, Your Honor, sofar there has been no misunderstanding. I just put the question to the witness, and if the defense counsel intends to read me his answer which the defendant read yesterday to the Tribunal, I object to it.
DR. MAYER: Well, no. I don't intend to read the reply, but to say that the witness spoke of material law and military law, and the translation was " Rules of warfare." That means rules of war, and the witness didn't talk of rules of war in general, but of the military and martial law.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that the phrase "courts martial" was incorrectly used anyway. I don't know what it is in German, but we understand from all that has been said by the witness that he was informed that the rule of warfare as laid down by the custom of war, and also as established by International Conventions, were to be disregarded, because it was anticipated that Russia would disregard those rules. That is what I gather there by what has been said about this. That was the witness understanding. Isn't that what it amounts to?
DR. MAYER: Perhaps it it possible that the President ask the witness in view of this misunderstanding between rules of and martial laws.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you have heard what your counsel has stated. Now tell us very briefly, just what you understand when you went into Russia with regard to ruthless warfare?
enemy but it did not mean that the rules of war are going to be disregarded. I only said that the martial law was not to be applied towards the enemy but that the rules of war were not going to be applied by the Germans, I did not say.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we need to have a little orientation on these phrases. Unaware of the phraseology actually being employed by the witness in German I am unable to make the correction myself if a correction is in order. But, I would suggest to the interpreter that in translating what I am now about to say that the phrases "military law, and courts martial" be used in the English with whatever explanation will be necessary later one. Armies, the actual forces in the field. an Army that has taken over a designated territory. the inquiry and disposition of a case involving a transgression or an alleges transgression by a member of the military and the Tribunal inquiring is the military itself. So, that I don't think that courts martial enters into the discussion at all. A courts martial is handled by German officers over German soldiers. A Russian courts martial is handled by the Russian military over Russians. with regard to the manner in which the enemy would fight. Now, keeping in mind these distinctions which we have drawn, tell us very briefly now what you heard and what you did in following out those orders concerning the manner in which you were to fight the enemy. Army for the assignment in the East excluded applying martial law and Court Martials as far as the enemy was concerned. Then we were told that the enemy, as I have already said, disregarded the agreement about the rules of warfare and, therefore, it had to be expected that they would fight ruthlessly in their warfare and that the Germans on their part would have to deal accordingly but it was not said that Germany on their own were going to disregard the rules of war.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you had better go on now, Mr. Ferencz, BY MR. FERENCZ: received the order that the Jews, gypsies, and political functionaries were to be killed you had a certain conflict in your feelings and you noticed that all who heard the order had a similar conflict, is that correct? is that correct?
A I was very reserved. We talked about it but we did not discuss it. It was sad the Fushrer order would be difficult in general but --
Q What do you mean, you talked about it but did not discuss it? Either you talked about it or you didn't talk about it. opinion about it. Everyone wanted to keep his opinion to himself. why didn't they discuss it?
A I don't know. My personal attitude was to settle the matter within myself. Whether the others did it in a different manner I don't know. In my small circle I did not see any one who started a lively discussion about this order. in opposition to the order why were you afraid or why didn't you discuss the order with them?
it could not be changed. That was my personal opinion. order would have to be carried out, is that correct? a matter came to my attention which made it necessary. formed three groups out of Sonderkommando VII-B, is that correct? Two you called executive groups and one group was to write reports, is that correct? people, isn't that correct?
A No, not at all. These are groups who have State Police members and of the Criminal Police who carry out the task of security. I said that the Kommando was given two kinds of missions. First of all, security in the rear of the Army territory and secondly, to make reports and seize material, etc. VII-B would it be these two executive groups or would it be your group which was supposed to write reports, you tell us. by the 2 Troop Kommandos which had members of the State Police and the Criminal Police. have to carry out any executions which were carried out by Sonderkommando VII-B, is that correct? VII-B is two groups carrying out executions and your group writing reports, is that correct?
Q And was it that way actually in practice or was it just a theory?
was changed because of experiences during campaigns because individual departments had to be formed where executive tasks and reporting had to be made by them. Therefore, this arrangement which Rausch made at the beginning was not regarded later on. and those who were to carry out executions only could write reports, is that correct?
A No, that was not possible, Mr. Prosecutor, because .... report afterwards?
A No. There were special experts, State Policemen for example, could never make SD reports. They were not able to do so as they..... groups, executive groups, that would have to carry out any executions there would be and one group to write reports. You said that in the beginning this was not only theory but practice and later it changed. Now the only way it could have changed is that either the executive groups would start writing reports or the reporting group would start executing people, or all would start writing reports, or all would start executing. Now which of those alternatives was_it? cutive groups and the SD troops, in time were mixed up so that in the three detachments, the troops, the executive people, and the SD people, were all mixed up.
Q All three groups then had the same function?
Q When did the changes take place?
A Well, I didn't know that, at the time in Minsk the Kommando was active as Rausch had planned it because the Kommando was always en route.
Q Did those changes take place while you were still there?
Dr. Mayer: I beg your pardon, your Honor. I would like to point out to the defendant Klingelhoeffer that he should talk a little slower. I don't think the translation and the court reporters can keep up.
THE PRESIDENT: You have heard that, witness, please be governed accordingly. BY MR. FERENCZ: time in Sonderkommando VII-B there were three groups in theory and in practice, two groups carried out executions and your group wrote reports?
Q. How many officers were there in Sonderkommando VII_B?
A. Officers? There were 1,2,3, - about 8, I estimate.
Q. What was the highest ranking officer's grade?
A. The highest ranking officer was SS_Sturmbannfuehrer Rausch, the Kommando chief.
Q. Would the interpreter please give the rank in English?
A. SS. Sturmbannfuehrer - A captain.
THE PRESIDENT: Let the witness himself indicate what the appropriate rank would be in the military.
A. That was major. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. And what was your grade at that time?
A. I was also major at the time.
Q. Were there more than two majors?
A. Not in the Kommando.
Q. So that next to the highest ranking officer or the Kommander of the Kommando you were next in line.
A. Yes, I was the next one in that sense.
Q. Now, tell we, during the time that you were a member, or second in command, of Sonderkommando VII-B how many people were killed by that Kommando?
A. When I was there I did not hear of anything while I was in the Kommando.
Q. You mean that in all this time you were so busy writing reports that you didn't even hear about executions?
A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, it is like this. In Brest-Litowsk we crossed the border - - - -
Q. Witness, you just stated that you didn't hear about executions. I am not interested in what you did in Breat-Litowsk.
A. I did not hear anything about executions.
Q. How do you explain the fact that you were the second highest ranking officer in Sonderkommando VII_B and you never heard about executions in that Kommando?
How do you explain that? Did you speak to other officers? Did you speak to the men or were you in the hospital all the time? How do you explain the fact that you didn't hear anything about it?
A. In the time when we were in Brest-Litowsk - I want to explain this in more detail - I, together with my SD Troop, separate from the rest of the Kommando who were in Brest-Litowsk for a few days, were in the NKWD building and there carried out investigations of material and documents, while the rest of the Kommando was at some distance in some nn or somewhere on some farm. What happened there I don't know. I just went there sometimes. Nothing else. Apart from that I was in the NKWD building.
Q. So your answer is the reason you didn't hear anything about executions was that the rest of the Kommando was in an inn or on a farm or somewhere and that you went there some times but that you were very busy in the NKWD building.
A. All furing those days I made investigations in the NKWD building of documents. I did not deal with anything ----
Q. So you never spoke to any of the other officers in Sonderkommando VII-B or men in Sonderkommando VII-B about anything else except the documents you were busy just reading in the NKWD building?
A. Well, of course I talked about the things I was working on, of course.
Q. And while you were in that NKWD building were you looking for lists of Communists or Party functionaries?
A. No, I looked for the material I found. I found some lists as well. Whether these were execution members of the NKWD I don't know. I simply utilized and compiled the material and handed it over to the chief for further evaluation.
Q. So, therefore, you found some lists giving you the names of all the Party functionaries in that area and you just gave that list to Rausch, is that correct?
A. Yes, that was my duty.
Q. Now, you knew that Hitler had given an order that all Party functionaries were to be exterminated, did you not?
A. Yes, I knew.
Q. So you took the list of names and gave it to Rausch. Didn't you know at that time he was going to exterminate all those people he could catch?
A. I only knew that I had the order to utilize the material and pass it on.
Q. I asked you, witness, didn't you know that when you were giving him these lists of Communist Party functionaries that he was going to exterminate all those he could? You either knew it or you didn't know it.
A. Of course, I did.
Q. Therefore, your share in this murder enterprise was giving him the names and his share was to shoot them.
A. I only did my duty as a soldier and did what was expected and nothing else. What happened with them I do not know.
Q. So the picture you are trying to give us of your activity in this, is a very busy major writing reports. Of course, you gave the list to other people who had to do the shooting but you never discussed anything about shootings of heard anything say anything about executions? Is that correct?
A. I did not hear anything of shootings in Brest-Litowsk, and never .......
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, I don't know that there seems to have been a contradiction or perhaps I am in error - you asked one question as to whether he knew what would be done with this list. As I recall the answer he said, "Well, of course, I had to know." Then just now you asked, two or three questions back, whether he knew and he says he didn't know what was to be done with the list. BY MR FERENCZ:
Q. Witness, as I understood, you said you know what was to be done with list but didn't know about the execution. Now did you say you didn't know what was to be done with this list which you gave the Kommandofuehrer?
A. Yes, I knew, owing to the Fuehrer order, I knew that functionaries were to be shot. Of course, I knew that but it was my task to utilize and to look into the material which I found and to hand it on and I did this. What happened with the list and whether Rausch, the chief of the Kommando, evaluated them I don't know because I heard nothing about shootings. Whether Rausch later handed on the list I don't know and I didn't hear.
Q. So you never heard anything about shootings by Sonderkommando VII-B during the time you were there, is that correct?
A. In the time until I arrived in Minsk, that is 9 July 1941, those were the first three weeks when the Kommando existed and I did not hear anything about shootings then.
Q. I want to draw your attention to Document Book II_B, page 25 of the English, page 26 of the German, document NO_2844. Here near the top of the page in the English copy it discusses the activities by Sonderkommando VII-B and it says among other things that 20 Jews who had been active as Communists were also executed. It is on page 26 of the German, witness.
A. Where is this, please?
Q. Page 26 of the German, page 25 of the English, top of the page of the English copy. How, so you know anything about those executions?
A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, it says here that a unit of Sonderkommando VII-B in Tschautzy carried out search actions for Communist functionaries. As far as I can remember Sonderkommando VII-B was in Tschautzy after the time in Minsk. Therefore, on that occasion I could not have been in Sonderkommando VII-B anymore. The report is dated 4 September 1941.
Q. You mean at that time you were in V.K. Moscow, is that correct?
A. Yes, at that time. That is correct.
Q. Please now, turn to the next page, page 26 of the English, page 28 of the German, and you will see that Vorkommando Moskau was executing people, too.
Now you have just told us that at this time you were in Vorkommando Moskau. Here the report says that 46 persons were executed, 38 people among them being intellectual Jews by V.K.M. Do you know anything about this?
A. In my direct examination I made statements as to this - that I did not hear anything about these executions, because I had nothing to do with these executive tasks.
Q. So you don't know anything about this?
A. I do not know that 38 intellectual Jews were shot in Smolensk.
Q. Do you know that any Jews were shot by Vorkommando Moskau while you were there?
A. While I was in Advance Kommando Moskau of course I know that executions were carried out by the Department for Jewish Affairs. Of course, I know that. I said that I know that the groups staff and also the Advanced Kommando Moskau constantly carried out executions, and operations. I never denied that. But I do not know the details.
Q. We will come to the details shortly as concerns this particular execution. However, you say you know nothing. is that correct?
A. No, I did not know anything.
Q. But you were in Vorkommando Moskau at that time, were you not?
A. Yes, I was in Advanced Kommando Moskau.
Q. Who was the commanding officer of Vorkommando Moskau at that time?
A. That was Brigadefuehrer Nebe.
Q. Were you his deputy?
A. I was appointed deputy but never carried out that function
Q. What were the dates when you were with Vorkammando Moskau?
A. I belonged to Vorkommando Moskau, (Advanced Kommando Moskau,) from the day it was set up, that is 10 or 11 June 1941, until the middle of September 1941, until that time when the new Kommando leader came and took it over from Nebe. Then I was released.
Q. Now on page 27 of the same document you have before you, that is document No-2844, it says that Vorkommando VII-B killed 886 people as per 20 August and staff in Vorkommando Moskau killed 144.
That's on page 29 of the German. You were during that time either in Vorkommando VII-B or in Vorkommando Moskau, is that correct?
A. Until 9 June 1941 I was in the I was in Sonderkommando VII-B.
Q. So that up to the 20 August you were in either one of these two groups?
A. Either/or, yes.
Q. You have told us --
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, Judge Dixon calls attention to a matter of Chronology here. The witness stated that he was with the Kommando VII-B from June 22 to July 10 1941. Then another occasion that he was with Vorkommando Moskau from June 10 to September 15, of to the middle of September; from June 20 to September 15 - oh, June 10 or June 11 - which is correct?
A. From the beginning, 22 June when the Kommando VII-B was set up until 9 July I was in VII-B and that in Minsk on 10 to 11 July in Minsk I came to Advance Kommando Moskau and was in Advanced Kommando Moskau until the middle of September.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, that clears it up.
groups and between the two of them they killed over one thousand people. Of about how many of these executions did you have knowledge?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I have already explained during the direct examination that in the time when I belonged to Sonderkommando 7b I did not hear of any executions. It, therefore, can be assumed that the figure of the total executions of the Sonderkommando 7b occurs during the time between Minsk, when they were active in Minsk, until 20 August. after you left the kommando, Sonderkommando 7b?
Q I see. Then the two executive sections of Vorkommando 7b, or Sonderkommando 7b, did nothing while you were a member of that kommando, or were they writing reports too?
A Well, they didn't do it and didn't have time to do it because the kommando was always en route until they came to Minsk. Those were the first three weeks of the assignment. to carry out executions, one to write reports, that this was the theory and the practice during the time you were there, but now you say they didn't actually carry out executions during your time, they were always marching, so it was just a theory then? for those three days in Brest-Litowsk, and there in Brest-Litowsk I did not hear anything, that any executions occurred there.
Q Now, Witness, you have just contradicted yourself. When I asked you a few minutes before whether the organization of two to carry out executions and one to write reports was theory or practice, you said it was theory and practice. Now you have told us that the two who were supposed to carry out executions were marching all the time instead and therefore it was only theory and not practice. Now, which of these two answers do you now hold to be correct?
A Well, I don't know; I didn't say that. had said previously? route and, therefore, had no opportunity of being stationed anywhere for any length of time. That is what I said. it theory and practice that two were to carry out executions, and you answered to that question, yes, it was both the theory and the practice that they carried out executions. Now you change your answer and say, no, it was just a theory, they never got down to it because they were marching, is that correct? of any executions. That is all I can tell you.
Q That is not my question; that is not my question. My question is, do you now change your testimony to say that it was just theory about the organization of these three groups in Sonderkommando 7b, that they didn't actually carry out executions during your time? time.
Q You have just told is a minute ago that they didn't carry out executions, and your explanation for these 886 people killed was that it happened after you left. Now, are you saying again that it did happen while you were there? start at the time when the kommando had left Minsk. That is when they came to the territory of the action.
THE PRESIDENT: What I think the prosecution desires to learn from you is whether these executions did take place before you left 7b. You say that you didn't hear of them. Do you exclude the possibility that they may have occurred without your being aware of them?
THE WITNESS: That possibility I do not exclude, your Honor. It is possible that executions occurred, might have occurred in Brest-Litowsk, for example, where the kommando was stationed for three days, but I personally did not hear of any executions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you think that so extraordinary a thing as the killing of eight hundred people could happen and you would not know about it, be done by your own organization and yet you be entirely ignorant of it?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, these are not 886 people. What I mean is that possibly from Brest-Litowsk the executive troops possibly carried out a few executions. They might have done this, but not that 886 people were shot in Brest-Litowsk. I merely maintain that the executions were apparently carried out after I was relieved from the kommando because while belonging to Sonderkommando 7b in the time from 22nd June until 10th or 11th july - first June, then July - I did not hear of any executions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1130 hours. )
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. Klingelhoefer, I draw your attention to Document Book IIB, page 53 of the English, page 47 of the German, Document No. 3143. There we have the total of liquidations as of 13 September 1941. You were with the Vorkommando Moscow from the 20th of August until the 13th of September 1941, were you not?
A. I was in the Advance Commando Moscow during the period covered by the report, Yes, from the 20th of August until the 13th of September.
Q. Do you remember the 20th of August report gave the total number killed as 144, whereas up to the 13th of September it had advanced to 312? Now, of these additional persons killed, how many did you receive knowledge of?
A. Out of this number I had direct knowledge, as I have already said in my direct examination, of those executions in Matislawl and Tatarsk which were carried out by Noack. Once it was 30 in Matislawl, and 20 in Tatarsk. These are the only direct numbers which became known to me.
Q. In other words, of 168 people killed, you only had knowledge of about 50, is that correct?
A. 50, Yes.
Q. And did anyone ever discuss with you the more than 100 others who were killed?
A. Of course, it was known to me, as I have already said in my direct examination, that the Group Staff as well as the Advance Commando Moscow carried out executions currently and, of course, shootings took place. This is in general, but in detail, I know nothing but these two figures.
PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, the witness has stated that there were 20 killed in Tatarsk. Yesterday he said 30. I don't know if there is just a slip in transmission, but I would like to keep these records straight from my own book here.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, we will go into detail in the Tatarsk executions very shortly. BY MR. FERENCZ:
Q. It is true, isn't it, Witness, that you just stated that there were 20 killed in Tatarsk?
A. In the first case, Yes, but there were two executions in Tatarsk.
Q. But you just said that there were two executions, one in Matislawl, and one in Tatarsk--Matislawl 30, and Tatarsk 20. Now, do you want to add another?
A. For the period covered by the report to the 13th of September 1941, this is merely the figure of 312 executions which we are discussing. For this period I only know these two executions which were carried out by Noack in Tatarsk and Matislawl. These were these Jewish actions by Noack on the basis of the Fuehrerorder.
Q. Very well. I draw your attention now to page 48 of the English, the same document, the same Document Book, page 43 of the German. There you have enumerated the killing of Jews by Vorkommando Moscow in the different places. The report says that, "A commando of the Vorkommando caused all Jews in these villages to be marked, transferred into a ghetto, forced to work and registered by names; it also shot the existing Jewish council and another 20 Jews."
A. May I ask where this is?
Q. On page 43 of the German, page 33 of the original.
A. Yes, I have got it.
Q. You were in the Vorkommando Moscow at that time, were you not?
A. Yes, I was in the Advance Commando Moscow.
Q. Do you know anything about this particular action or these two actions?
A. No. I do not know anything about it.
Q. Did you ever hear about it from anybody in the commando?
A. I heard--I know that Noack, as I have already mentioned, was the expert for Jewish questions for which Mebe had appointed him and that he carried out these executions and I assume that he carried out these actions, too, in Choslawitschi.
Q. So your answer to this document is, "Noack did it", is that correct? Your explanation to this particular document is that Noack did it, is that correct?
A. Yes. I have no idea about this.
Q. Incidentally, where is Noack?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know whether he is dead?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you hear testify in this court that he is dead?
A. No.
Q. Were you here when the defendant, Naumann, was testifying?
A. Yes, I was here.
Q. And you don't recall him saying that Noack is known to be dead?
A. I do not know, No.
Q. I would now like you to turn to Document Book IIB, page 18; it is page 17 of the German; it is page 13 of the original document. There again you have an action by Vorkommando Moscow in which 114 Jews were killed. Do you know anything about this particular actions?
A. No, I know nothing about this action either since, as I have already mentioned, I was only in the Advance Commando Moscow until the middle of September. As for the few days which fall into this report beyond this period, I must say the same, I have said before, that I had nothing to do with these matters and that only Noack was competent for this matter. I did not know in detail who carried out this action, and where and how it was carried out, therefore, it can also be assumed that this action in Choslawitschi already took place under the leadership of koerting and at this time I did not belong to Advance Commando Moscow any longer.
Q. Well, you said you were a member of Advance Commando Moscow until the 15th of September 1947?
A. Until the middle of September, Yes.
Q. And this document is dated the 9th of October.
A. Yes, 9th of October.
Q. You have heard many of the defendants explain that the date of the reports was always a few weeks after the actual event, so that this particular event would have taken place in September, is that correct?
A. Yes, but may I point out that when compiling the total figures, the deadline of the 28th of September is given at the end, therefore, this must be the period between the 13th of September 1941 and the 28th of September 1941, since the preceding compilation is mentioned as of the 13th of September. Therefore, I conclude, as I must conclude, that this action took place within this period of time.
Q. In any event, you say this was done by Noack, is that correct?
A. In any case, I must say if Noack didn't do it, it must have been Koerting.
Q. Now, I raw your attention -
A. I had nothing to do with actions.
Q. I draw your attention to page 21 of the same document--page 21 of the German, which gives the total killed as of September 28. Now, you say that you were with the Vorkommando Moscow from the 20th of August through the middle of September. We have the total here of over 2,000 people killed during most of that period or just a few days over. Of these 2,000 who were killed, how many of them did you assist in killing?