In this dissension of my feelings I avoided discussing this, and therefore did not mention it to anyone so as not to let anyone see too much of my reaction. I also noticed that the other officers and men felt similarly. The Fuehrer order was hardly mentioned, therefore, and was hardly ever discussed. Everyone knew that he would be forced to carry out this order if the situation should arise, and therefore, considered all discussions about it as useless.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, after this inner conflict that you have described, your feelings as against your conception of patriotism, your sensibilities as against your obedience to your superior officers, including the Chief of State, did you finally come to a conclusion?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I Came to the conclusion that the order had to be carried out, and that I also would have to carry it out if the situation should arise for me, but that I would use every opportunity in order to evade this order as for as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: You felt that your sense of duty was stronger than your aversion to the nature of the deed you were culled upon to perform?
THE WITNESS: My sense of duty, of course, was stronger.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY DR. MAYER: task I had been given as an expert in the SD, would have nothing to do with these executive tasks and therefore I would not be forced to carry then out. In fact, during my entire assignment in Russia. I never was given an order to carry out the Fuehrer Order.
Q Could you have objected to your being ordered to Pretsch? known to me. Beyond that, this was a military order in wartime which I could not disobey, for that reason alone. to staying in the Sonderkommando? Police and the SD, and was under military laws.
Q When did you cross the Russian border? Brest-Litowsk.
Q what road did it take? The advance on this route Jested from 25 June until about 9 July, 1941. Russian border? into an executive platoon end an SD platoon. I as chief of the SD platoon, merely had to deal with the reporting. At the locations where the commando stayed for a short time while advancing, I searched the offices of the YKWD, the party and the state organization, and looked for important documents, and I inquired from the population about any questions which might be of importance for the information services. Also the members of my SD platoon who were partly new to this task I introduced Into these tasks, and I gave lectures about the people and the country in Russia.
Q In Sonderkommando 7b, did you have anything to to with executions? and to name them?
Q How long were you a member of Sonderkommando 7b? July, 1941, in Minsk.
Q Why were you transferred to the Advance Kommando Moscow? local knowledge and my knowledge of the language.
Q Who was the chief of the Advance Kommando Moscow?
A The then SS-Standertenfuehrer Professor Dr. Six.
Q What were the tasks of the Advance Kommando Moscow?
with the troop behind Moscow or in Moscow, and to secure important buildings and material that might be of importance concerning information, culture, politics or science.
Q What was your took and your work? country, was limited to this: I determined which objects in Moscow were to be secured.
Q What route did the Advance Kommando Moscow take? they remained without any verb for sometime. On 21 July, 1941, Six sent me to Smolensk to arrange for billets where I arrived the same dry and arranged for billets for the Advance Kommando Moscow in the NKWD building in Smolensk.
THE PRESIDENT: In Moscow?
THE WITNESS: In Smolensk.
THE PRESIDENT: You never got to Moscow, did you?
THE WITNESS: About five or six days later the entire Advance Kommando Moscow left. BY DR. MAYER:
Q What was the situation for the Advance Kommando Moscow in Smolensk? work because Smolensk was still being attacked by artillery. After the situation had calmed down, the Advance Kommando Moscow first searched the MKWD offices of the "Soviet House" and other objects for any remaining material. Apart from that the general conditions in Smolensk were considered.
Q What was the result?
A The city was badly damaged and void of any people. A provisional city administration had been set up which the Army had appointed, but they could not handle matters. They asked the Advance Kommando Moscow to support them end to give them instructions for the work.
Moscow for this support? German troop in Smolensk who had personnel knowing both languages and being familiar with the country. Particular?
A The cultural equipment like museums, collections, etc., which were left in Smolensk were secured from looting. The cathedral, where there was a Pagan museum was opened so that the population could attend service, was a pagan museum.
THE PRESIDENT: I din't catch that word, a museum of what?
THE INTERPRETER: A pagan museum. I said atheists.
THE PRESIDENT: A pagan museum. Very well.
A (Continuing) The search for important material was continued.
Q What was your personal work there? suitable for evaluation and to evaluate it, and to obtain and work on in this connection by questioning the population a survey about all spheres of public life and to make reports about this.
Q What happened with the material you found? in more detail was prepared to be sent to Berlin. in Smelensk?
Q Where did the group staff take up its quarters? where the advance commando Moscow already was stationed. arrived? work of the advance commando Moscow. arrived? of this. I simply dealt with the so-reporting and evaluation of material, as I have already explained.
Q What happened when your chief, Dr. Six, went away?
A When on 20 August 141, Dr. Six left Smolensk in order to return to Germany, the chief of Einsatzgruppe B, Nebe, on instructions from Berlin, took over personally the Command of the advance commando Moscow until the new commando chief arrived.
Q Did this change affect you personally?
advance commando Moscow, in case Nebe should be away from the garrison.
Q Did you carry out this function as deputy? this pending period Nebe was continually in Smolensk. The case never arose that I had to act as deputy, therefore, the individual departments of the advance commando Moscow worked quite independently reporting immediately to Nebe, so that I beyond the tasks of the SD, was not informed about the activity of the other departments except for the work done in my section. Also Nebe gave his orders immediately to the persons he had personally appointed. Nebe never made a differentiation between 'Group Staff' and "VKM". The VKM at that time, until the now chief arrived, was practically an independent unit. this with the summary expression "VKM" and "Group Staff" as meaning the same thing or working on the same field? departments of the VKM were sent by Nebe immediately as chief and, therefore, the advance commando Moscow was closely connected with the Group Staff, the reports of the different departments were immediately sent to Nebe or to the competent departments in the Group Staff. This explains the fact that the reports submitted as documents contained formulations like Group Staff and VKM as one unit. arrive? advance commando Moscow, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Koerting, arrived about the middle of September 1941 and was in charge of the advance commando Moscow after that.
that?
A No. I myself at the same time, that is, about the middle of September 1941, transferred to the Group Staff of Einsatzgruppe B, to the SD Deportment as expert for Russian captured material and as interpreter.
Q How long worn you in Advance Commando Moscow then? July 1941 until the middle of September 1941. '41 onwards you worn transferred to the Einsatzgruppe B Group Staff to the SD as export on Russian captured material and as interpreter. How long did you work in that capacity? October 1941.
Q After the end of October 1941, what did you do? Moscow, about 9 October 1941, at the and of October 1941, Nebe set up a small advance commando, the advance commando group staff, and I was put in charge of it. This Advance Commando Group Staff went to Gshatsk together with me where I reported to the competent army high command.
Q Did Nebe recognize anything else?
A Yes. About the middle of October 1941 people from the group staff and various exports in the advance commando Moscow were formed into another subcommando, the so-called Sonderkommando Moscow, that is, Special Commando. This was under the charge of the up till than SD men of the staff of the Einsatzgruppe B, the SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Buchardt.
DR. MAYER: Your Honor, in order to illustrate the following questions,I have made a sketch, and in order to make it easier for you to understand it, I would like to submit it.
PRESIDENT: We would be very happy to receive it.
DR. MAYER: There are three sketches, Your Honor, each sketch for a certain period about which the witness will speak now. BY DR. MAYER: situation -- the development after taking over the subcommando -- advance commando was taken over by Koerting -please describe to us what happened chronologically. Commando Moscow in the middle of September 1941;apart from the advance commando Moscow of which Koerting was in command, Note created in the middle of October 1941 the Sonderkommando Moscow, and at the end of October 1941 he created the advance commando group staff of which I was in command. At the end of October 1941; therefore, three different commandos existed -- simultaneously, which were under Einsatzgroup B. Apart from those commandos known; namely, first, the Advance Commando Moscow; second, the Sonderkommando Moscow; third, the Advance Commando Group Staff. new commandos? Group Staff had the same tasks, namely, to occupy important buildings in Moscow immediately and to secure all documentary material. Nebe had the ambition that if Moscow should be taken that he and his office should establish themselves there.
as soon as possible, so that the destruction of document material which can always be expected when a town is captured, be reduced as far as possible. He, therefore, created the two commandos I mentioned, attached each one to a different army and, therefore, he felt guaranteed that one of the commandos would certainly be on the spot when Moscow was captured. Therefore, every commando was given the special task to look for quarters for headquarters of the staff of Einsatzgruppe B immediately. The advance commando Moscow, which originally had been intended for those purposes, I just mentioned, retained its name, but at the period last mentioned it had lost its original purpose. Its Moscow experts had been taken away, when the Sonderkommando Moscow was set up and the Advance Commando Staff, and its task was only that of a normal Sonderkommando. This may sound strange, but it was like that. The designation "Advance Commando Moscow" was retained for reasons of convenience. Commando Group Staff of which you were in command. the mission to go with the combat unit, or immediately behind them, to Moscow and there to deal with the tasks of the security police and the SD and to secure all the buildings and equipment important for this; apart from that, to set up headquarters for the group staff.
Q Where was the advance commando Moscow when you loft Smolensk? Commando Moscow was in Spass-Demenskt cast of Smolensk, As far as I can remember, the advance commando Moscow under Koerting at the end of September 1941 left Smolensk, therefore, it left Smolensk before me,
Q Where was the Sonderkommando Moscow? middle of October 1941, marched from Smolensk via Roslawl to Malojareslawez and remained there.
Q How long did you stay with the Advance Commando Group Staff? of October 1941 the end of December '41. At that time I wont on leave.
Q when did you return from leave? Smolensk to the Group Staff.
Q What was the situation when you returned? Naumann, told me that the Advance Commando Group Staff in the meantime had been dissolved and that I was to remain with the Group Staff.
PRESIDENT: Just a minute, please, so that we don't got into a confusion in the record, Nov, the Advance Commando Group Staff was dissolved, then he became a member of the Group Staff. You have the same phrase there. I presume you mean Group Staff of the Einsatzgruppe?
THE WITNESS: Group Staff of Einsatzgruppe B.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, which would be in the nature of Headquartersthe Headquarters Staff?
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY DR, MAYER:
Q Why had the Advance Commando Group Staff been dissolved?
Moscow would be delayed for an indefinite period. you were waiting for Moscow to to captured? for further advances of the Army, I prepared myself for my work in Moscow. I particularly studied the local conditions.
Q Did the Advance Commando Group Staff carry out any executions?
A While I was in command of the Advance Commando; it did not carry out any executions. other units of the Einsatzgruppe there? of the Einsatskommando 9 which was competent in that area, and which dealt with all security police tasks and all SD tasks. Group Staff? Germany in December 1943, December 1945 in the Group Staff? of the language and my experience in Russia. I dealt with reports on the immediate orders from the chief of Einsatzgruppe B. Naumann. Einsatzgruppe B after the Advance Commando Group Staff was dissolved in December 1941? after Christmas 1941 consisted of making reports. The Chief of the Einsatzgruppe, Naumann, gave me immediate instructions to do this. These reports soon became a kind of evaluation medium for captured Russian material, which constantly and continually was turned in by the commandos to the Einsatzgruppe staff, or was handed over by the army.
I looked through this material. I translated it and I used it for reports. Any unclear points which might have been contained in it or anything that might have been missing in those documents was supplemerited by making special inquiries. This evaluation office consisted apart from the SD Department of the Group Staffs. I did not deal with the daily reports which the Commandos gave to the Group Staff in the SD sector but I made comprehensive reports about the large organizations and problems of the Russian Bolchevist life, In details the reports calt with detailed explanations about the various political, cultural, and governmental forms of organization of the USSR, the history of their development, their manner of working their sphere of influence, and the effects on public life. Since these explanations were always made in great detail, making them took a long time because we had to tudy documents and literature, question Russians of various professions and of various classes, and interrogate reports of the various organizations. Moreover, Naumann gave me the assignment that a detailed plan of the assignment should be worked out by me for the entire Einsatzgruppe in Moscow, but since the existing material was only incomplete and completions and corrections had to be made to a large extent. it took a lot of time to work out this plan. A completely new register of streets had to be worked out alphabetically because we did not have any such register. For the work in Moscow, a large city of four million inhabitants, this was absolutely necessary; in order to speed up the printing of this list and in order to correct any possible mistakes, I had to make a special trip to Berlin, This is only an example to show how many difficulties we had to overcome. Preparing this assignment plan took up three months. It took almost as long for me to give detailed explanations about the NKVD and other political organizations in the USSR. During my two years' activity, from December 1941 until December 1943, five or six such large reports were made out by me. Apart from that, I continuously dealt with small translations. When the attitude of the Russian people towards the German occupation authorities became noticeably Worse, I received the order to organize a special Russian information service which had the task to find the causes why the reactions and the attitude of the people had become so much worse in regard to the German occupation forces and to report about this in current reports.
As part of this reporting, for example, in summer 1943, I collected extensive material about the excesses of the administrative office, when recruiting volunteer workers to be sent to Germany. The then chief of Einsatzgruppe B, Standartenfuehrer Boehme, handed this on to the chief of the Einsatzgruppe center of the Army Group Center. When I wanted to submit some more material on this later on, the chief of the Einsatzgruppe told me he did not think that I should continue to work against our own German offices and agencies.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, do you wish to offer something?
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I didn't want to interrupt the defendant's reading of his carefully prepared answers, but in order to save time, we are prepared to concede that the defendant wrote reports without going into all the details.
THE PRESIDENT: I do think, Dr. Mayer, that those reports are perhaps too much in detail, his report of the reports. Might you during the recess see the defendant and determine if you can't abbreviate a little bit of this long story on his reports and get right down to the essential parts of the indictment.
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor. The witness has finished replying to this question, but since this activity extended over two years for which he has to account, in my opinion, we cannot avoid going into detail about this, but the question has been replied to now.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but I was only thinking about what he might still have further to say, and it would not be necessary to go into any greater detail on the matter of reports which he was making.
DR. MAYER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. GICK: Dr. Gick representing Dr. von Stein for the defendant Sandberger. excused from this afternoon's session because Dr. von Stein needs him in order to conclude a document book which he is preparing. I would like your Honor to rule that he be removed and brought to room 57 immediately, under guard to room 57 so he may there consult with his attorney.
DR. MAYER: Mayer for the defendant Klingelhoefer. examination of the defendant Klingelhoefer.
THE PRESIDENT: Please do. BY DR. MAYER: until December, 1943, you described your intelligence activity in Smolensk. I now ask you what tasks you had to deal with after Smolensk was evacuated. the staff of Einsatzgroppe B was transferred to Minsk, In Minsk I was ordered to collect the well-working indigenous Russian police forces which were in good working order and to reorganize them for Ninsk; They were to be assigned to reconnaissance against partisan activity and to fight the partisans and other rioters who were becoming very dangerous in the vicinity of Minsk. After these units had been reorganized, I was relieved, and on 20 December 1943 I returned to Germany, 1941, until December, 1943, receive any mission from Neumann, outside your own sphere of activities?
A Yes. At the end of May approximately or the beginning of June, 1942, I was assigned by Neumann to go to Krassniy which is about forty kilometers to the west of Smolensk and to carry out a reconnaissance activity against partisans. order? as this was a very urgent mission for the Army Group and he did not have another officer who could deal with it at the moment. It was only a very short period so that my current assignments would not be delayed too much.
Q What exactly was the mission in Krassniy? activity and movement of a partisan group in the forest territories near Krassniy in order to give the Wehrmacht the necessary information for the fight against this partisan group. I had to deal with this mission in close collaboration with the local Kommandantura of the Wehrmacht in Krassniy.
Q How long did this take you? out against the partisans, and who carried it out? of the Wehrmacht together with a police unit.
Q Were executions carried out on this occasion?
had been warned and evaded the blow. of his successors? late in the evening I received the order from the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe B, Naumann to go to the estate Wissokojo which was in the vicinity of Smolensk, and which was run by the Einsatzgruppe B, as apparently mutiny had occurred with the Russians of the enterprise "Zeppelin", As I knew the Russian language I was supposed to carry out the investigation of this matter. I did so according to orders within the next three days.
Q What was the result of your investigations? following result. The Russians housed on this particular estate who had taken part in the operation "Zeppelin", after they had been trained in Germany for their espionage and sabotage activity, had been sent to Smolensk where they were equipped, end after a short stay they were to be brought by airplanes of the German Luftwaffe to the Hinterland, the rear territory of the Russian Army. Owing to bad weather conditions, this was delayed so that these Russians -- they were about fifteen or sixteen men -- had to be kept in this estate for two to three weeks, In the meantime some of these Russians had smarted to persuade their comrades not to carry out the mission to which they had consented and to influence them to commit treason. Especially, two or three of the Russians were found guilty of trying to give away some of their comrades who had been anti-Bolshevists all the time to the NKWD after the landing. As a result of the investigations I established the fact that apart from these two or three Russians which I mentioned, who, pretending to be loyal without the slightest doubt had smuggled themselves into this operation "Zeppelin" from the very beginning with the intention of sabotaging the work, but that the others had remained faithful in their attitude and in their work and were absolutely blameless as far as this matter was concerned.
I gave a report to the Chief of Einsntzgruppe B, Neumann, to this effect. particular case? the subsequent action in this matter after I left; as my own activity was thus concluded, and I went to Germany on leave immediately. in Krassniy and Wissokoje which were outside the actual program of your assignment, have any other assignment of this kind?
A Yes. Already before those events which I just mentioned took place -- before Krassniy and Wissokoje -I received at the beginning of September 1941, the order from Nebe to obtain winter clothing for the unit, that is, furs and fur lining,, He told me on that occasion that it was not possible to supply the necessary clothing for the winter from Berlin, and his attempt to this effect with the first quartermaster of the Army Group had had no result. Nebe furthermore told me that he had received a directive from the Army to requisition the necessary winter clothing in the territory. Several agencies and Army units had done the same thing.
Q Why did Nebe choose you for this task?
AAlthough as it was a task of the administration. I had nothing to do with assignments of this kind Nebe regarded merely the fact that I know the Russian language as sufficient reason for entrusting this to me, Furthermore he thought this would be a good opportunity for mo to collect more information for my SD reports. out of his assignment? Jews from the large Justice had fled to these two places, as the Einsatz Group had found out and it could on assumed that the Jews owing to their good living conditions which they had in the USSR possessed winter clothing. in fact, so much of it that a seizure for the purposes of the occupation forces would not matter to them very much, Simultaneously Nebe asked me to institute a ghetto in both of these places for the Jews, which up till then, bad not been done, I, however, evaded this part of the mission, pointing out than I had had nothing to do with these matters up till then and had had no experience whatsever. I did not know how a ghetto was to be instituted and what directives I had to pass on to the Jews, I, therefore, suggested to Nebo to entrust SS-Hauptsturmfuehr Noack with the carrying out of this task, who as a departmental expert for the Jewish question was competent to deal with such matters. Thereupon Noack received the order from Nebe to carry out the antiJewish operation in Mstislawl and Tatarsk.
Q How did you carry out your own assignment? been allotted to us for these tasks went to Mstislawl. After our arrival in Mstislawl -- that was in the afternoon of the same day -- I immediately took up contact with the mayor while Noack carried out his assignment with the local Russian police chief, I ordered the mayor to inform the Jews living in Mstislawl to deliver the furs and fur clothing which they had in their possession to him for selection purposes.
I told the mayor that I was ordered to requisition winter and fur clothing against a receipt, The redeeming of this requisition slip would have to be done at the Wehrmacht offices and the amount had to be used for the supply of the Jewish population of Mstislawl. Raids of houses ware neither threatened nor carried out. In the meantime I had myself informed about general conditions in the Jewish section of Mstislawl by the mayor, and I asked him for details concerning the inhabitants of the place who would be in a position to give us information concerning the conditions before the occupation by the German troops. I discussed matters with these people in detail. In the meanwhile the fur clothing was delivered into the mayor's place.
Q Do you know anything about Noack's mission and how he dealt with it at the same time? Noack had not finished his mission, I went in search for him. My investigations revealed that he had left Mstislawl in a southerly direction with his Kommando. As it was wellknown that the territory around Mstislawl was invested with partisans, I decided to follow Noack in my car and in case there might be any incidents, I thought I could support him. I took the remainder of the Kommando consisting of six men and found him about two kilometers from Mstislawl in a scrub land where he was just carrying out an execution.
Q Had he concluded the execution when you joined him?