THE PRESIDENT: There is something on page 30, and carried over to 31.
MR. WALTON: You are right, sir. It is 31. The Document is NO3338-A, and that is, witness, on the page right at the bottom of page 10 of the original. You were in command of Einsatzcommando XII on the date of this report, were you not?
A I have not found the passage you mean. Is it the report of the 19 January on?
AAnd what place do you refer to? it is right at the end of page 10 of the original, where it says, 685 Jews, 1639 Partisans and Communists were shot between 1 and 15 January, the total number being accordingly, 80,160. The question I asked: On this date, between 1 and 15 January, you were still in command of Einsatzcommando XII, were you not? XII contributed its share to this total is the same as to the other two documents which I have just shown you?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I must explain it more clearly, As for the previous questions, I have said that the total figure included these people that the Einsatzcommando has reported as executed, but in this case the number reeds as another total figure, so this report and the previous one refers to actions which happened between Sinferopol and there, and they always referred to incidents in which Einsatzcommando XII is never mentioned, and that is decisive.
Q I have no interest in this 685 Jews, and the 1639 Partisans. What I am asking you is that in this total of executions of 80,160 , performed by Einsatzcomnando D to the date of this report, I put to you, witness, the same question that I put to you on the other two documents; of this total of 80,160, is it your opinion that Einsatzcommando XII contributed some executions to this grand total?
of 75,881 executions, that it contributed its total or its share to the total of 54,696 executions. Why didn't it contribute its share to this total, when the total killed was 90,000 in the whole time that you were?
A Mr. Prosecutor, you asked the question more precisely here in the last instance, you always took the periods of time covered in the report, and that is now shown here at all. If in my reports of September, or October any executions are mentioned, these are included in the figure of the fifty, or seventy-five thousand, or eightythousand, but our contribution is not always listed as for each period, so I con not comment on this. These are all reports which refer to clear incidents, and to areas with which Einsatzcommando XII had nothing to do. accordingly 80,160 executions, as that many after the date of the report which gave the total of 75,881, is that what you are trying to say?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A. About the activities of Einsatzkommando XII I cannot say anything at all. Einsatzkommando XII is not mentioned at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, I wouldn't spend any further time with this. He has admitted that Einsatzkommando XII contributed its share to the grand total of 75,000. I wouldn't waste half an hour trying to determine whether it contributed its share to the 80,000.
MR. WALTON: I have no further questions. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, how many executions did you personally order?
A. Your Honor, it is not possible for me to give you a definite specific figure for that.
Q. Well, give us your best recollection of the number of executions that you personally ordered?
Q. Even that, your honor, is not possible for me to do.
A. Well, is it because the number is so great or the number so small that you cannot remember how many people you ordered to their deaths?
A . The figure as such would not be possible for me to remember exactly. There are a lot of lapses in my memory and I wouldn't want to give any figure which might be wrong or right.
Q. Did you order anybody to be killed?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you regard that as a grave matter to send someone to his death?
A. Yes, very.
Q. Then wouldn't that have made such an impression upon your mind that you could recall now after these years how many you had sent to their Creator?
A. Your Honor, this is due to the fact that one had records on incidents concerned. There are many persons and one had an idea of those persona and people - so and so many - were sent to their death and others were released. I only remember the incident as a whole that I investigated then but I cannot say what the ratio was exactly.
Q. You will not or can not tell the Tribunal how many people you personally ordered killed during the time you were in Russia?
A. No, I cannot do so.
Q. Was it as many as six or seven thousand?
A. Certainly not but it is useless to give any figure.
Q. Well, you remembered six or seven thousand Jews that you escorted across the Dnjestr River. You mentioned that number specifically. You regard taking someone across the river of less moment than of sending him to his death?
A. Your Honor, as much as I was mistaken in this figure can be seen from the fact that in my first interrogetion I mentioned three thousand and afterwards it seemed to me too little. If I look at places full of people it is very difficult to estimate. So, again it is not a true recollection.
Q. But your best recollection today is -- and you went out of your way to call it to the Tribunal's attention -that there were six to seven thousand in that camp, is that right?
A. I estimated them. After I thought it over now how long they marched and how many people there might have been I think perhaps it was inaccurate.
Q. All right, Now you recollect people that you say marching to their death, the people that were brought up before the execution Squad - it certainly would have produced as vivid an image in your mind as these people marching across the bridge and you tell us now to your best recollection how many you ordered shot while you were in Russia?
A. Never. I cannot give you any figure.
Q. All right then, how many people did you see killed? How many executions did you witness?
A. I saw two men shot.
Q. In ell the time that you were in Russia you say only two people shot?
A. NO. I personally saw these two people shot. Otherwise the execution took place where the incidents took place
Q. In all the time that you were in Russia how many people did you see shot?
A. I personally saw two men who were shot by my kommando.
Q. Tell us about these two.
A. These were two people who were arrested with four or five other people because they were people for whom the Wehrmacht was looking. they had set up a secret radio transmitter in Pologi and sent news to the Russian Army. As the investigations reveald they were ordered...
Q. Did you conduct these investigations?
A. No, not myself but I was very much interested in them.
Q. Did you review the Investigation?
A. In this case, yes.
Q. And then did you order them shot after you investigated the case, after you read the investigation?
A. NO.
Q. who ordered them shot?
A. I did, but not immediately.
Q. Well then you ordered these two shot? Well, then you do remember two that you ordered shot? You told us a moment ago you wouldn't hazard any estimate. Now you do remember two people you ordered shot, is that right?
A. I said I cannot remember a definite figure which were executed on my orders. I saw these two men shot.
Q. Did you order these two people shot?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. So you do remember two people that you ordered executed?
A. Yes.
Q. Now can you recall anybody else that you ordered executed?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Give us the others.
A. Well, for example, I cannot tell you exactly, I think it was in Guljapole, a large number of persons were first of all arrested. Part of them were shot against whom the investigations showed that they had mined the Front Intelligence of the Army to blow it up.
A. And how many of them did you order shot?
A. I cannot exactly remember because I only remember the number by how many incidents, how many cases, there were and against how many persons investigations were carried out.
Q. Well, this incident that you have just now mentioned resulted in some executions. How many did you order shot after investigations and after acts which entitled them to be killed? How many were there?
A. I cannot say, your Honor.
Q. Was it 50?
A. Any number is wrong or correct. I cannot give any number.
Q. Did you see them shot after you ordered their execution?
A. NO.
Q. Now you tell us just what the episode was, where was it, in Guljapole?
A. In Guljapole.
Q. Please spell that for me, Mr. Lea.
A. G-u-l-j-a-p-o-l-e.
Q. All right. when did this happen?
A. In January or February in the New Year 1942. I don't know the exact date.
Q. Now tell us just what happened?
A. Well I only remember this much. Some Wehrmacht agency sent a courier and asked for a few people who might carry out investigations. Something was not right. The personnel in the Intelligence Center, the Russian auxiliary personnel, had found some sort of suspicious people who had connections with the outside and wanted to investigate the matter. The investigation took some time. I don't know how long.
Q. Were these your investigators?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you follow the investigation yourself?
A, No. I always got reports from time to time.
Q. Fine. You got the reports. Now you tell us what these reports said.
A. Well the final result was that a certain circle of people was considered very hostile to the Germans and that they had made preparations to blow the center up.
Q. How many were in this circle?
A. I cannot tell you how many.
Q. All right. A circle of people - they were going to blow up the Germans. Now tell us something further. What else was in the report?
A. Well nothing more. Afterwards there was the result and I don't remember that exactly. I only remember it as an incident because it was interesting. Any details I do not remember.
Q. It was interesting to you that these men were going to blow up somebody but it wasn't interesting to you that you Killed them, is that right?
A. Your Honor, we were interested in the matter and it was out duty to investigate such matters.
Q. And you reviewed the investigations?
A. Yes.
Q. And after you reviewed the investigations you gave the order for execution?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many were there?
A. I cannot tell you exactly. My recollection is only of the incident as such. I cannot give you the figure.
Q. Were there 500 shot?
A. Not that many.
Q. Tell were there 100 shot?
A. I don't think so. Any figure is wrong.
Q. Were there 50 shot?
A. Your Honor --
Q. Answer that question yes or no.
A. I cannot give a number.
Q. Were there 10 shot?
A. Even this question I cannot answer.
Q. Were there 5 shot?
A. That would be the same answer.
Q. Yes there one shot?
A. Yes, some were shot.
Q. All right. How many were shot?.
A. Your Honor, I must repeat the same thing over and over again.
Q. You just reconstruct in your mind this scene. Here is an incident which you recall after five years, You volunteer this incident. Certainly there must be a picture in your mind of this circle of people that are conspiring to do harm and damage to the German forces, that you are requested to send out investigators. These investigators go out and conduct their inquiries and interrogations. They make up a report. This report is submitted to you and you read this resort and as a result of the report you order certain people to be shot. Now it is incomprehensible that you could recall an incident of this importance with all the details which you have given us and leave out that most essential, vital part of the number of people killed. That does not square with common sense or logic. You are an attorney. You are a man of ability and you have conducted yourself on the witness stand with accumen and clear thinking, Now you answer question. Take as much time as you require and tell us how many were shot.
If you don't answer that question the Tribunal will be compelled to draw whatever conclusion will come from so illogical a refusal to answer such a very natural logical question.
A. Your Honor, I cannot give any figure of those shot under my responsibility. I remember the incident and my memory is supported by the reports here when the reports were submitted to me. But even here, some matters I could not remember. Only could I remember them when I saw the reports again and recalled them more clearly. In my situation reports I reported everything which took place in my area .........
Q. Just a moment. Just a moment. You told us of the two people you did see shot, Where did this occur? Where did this occur these two people that you did admit having seen shot?
A. In Pologi:
Q. And when did this take place?
A. It must have been at the end of February or the beginning of March.
Q. How many people were in the Execution Squad?
A. About six men.
Q. Did you make certain that the execution was conducted in a military and humane fashion?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. How, how is it you recall the execution of these two in February 1942 but you do not recall the execution of a much larger number in January of 1942? Explain that to the Court, please?
A. This execution of two people I attended myself. I witnessed it. Therefore, I remember it especially well. Then it was such an interesting case as it was very rare in Russia that here one captured a man who sent messages to the enemy, Then the following had to be considered. In winter when we didn't undertake many activities and when we were cut off for weeks, every detail became something big for us, bigger than if it had happened at a time when in the areas around Nikolajew when the Roumanians came in and the Germans left there were so many agencies around us and so many units operating around us that when these matters were mentioned to the group - all of this sort of thing escapes me and I cannot remember specifically.
Q. Do we understand that you remember the Pologi incident because it happened in the winter time? Is that what you told us?
A. I remember this last mentioned incident especially because this was a typical case as......
Q. You said something about winter. You remember it because it was in the winter?
A. Yes.
Q. All right,
A. That was during a time when we were inactive.
Q. Don't you regard January in Russia as winter?
A. Yes, it's winter.
Q. What distinction do you make between the episode which occurred in February because it was winter and the episode which occurred in January?
A. No distinction. Not that big a distinction anyway but just the fact that there were two people whom I witnessed being executed. That is more impressionable then the incident of a large number of people who were executed and some that were left over.
Q. And some of whom you ordered killed? That's right, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, you mill not tell the Tribunal how many you ordered executed as the result of this episode in Guljapole?
A. I cannot mention that figure.
Q. Yes, and you have nothing further to add to this episode which you yourself volunteered on this matter of not regarding knowing how many were executed?
A. No, it is impossible for me because in the meantime I have forgotten the details and don't know how many were executed.
Q. You said that there were some people killed. When you use the adjective some you naturally mean more than one or two?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So that when you say some already you project yourself into an estimate. Now what do you mean by some?
A. By some I mean more than one - several.
Q. All right. Several takes you up to about three or four. So, were there three or four executed?
A. Your Honor, it is useless. I cannot remember and I would cast a doubt on my credibility as some report might be found in the future and if the figure reported might not correspond with the figure I reported.
Q. Do you think, witness, that any doubt is being cast on your credibility when you tell an entirely impartial Tribunal that you do not remember how many people you ordered killed. Do you think any doubt would be cast upon your credibility? Answer that question frankly. Do you think the Tribunal would be justified in entertaining a doubt on your credibility when you say that you do not remember how many people you ordered killed arising out of an episode which you yourself have recalled vividly. Answer that question frankly.
A. Your Honor, if ther is any conclusion drawn from my words you cannot judge them.....
Q. Very well, how many Jews did you order killed in Russia?
A. As for Jews just because they were Jews I ordered none to be executed.
Q. How many Jews did you order killed not because they were Jews?
A. Your Honor, I gave no special order not to use the Hitler order. My tendency......
Q. Now please answer the question. Witness, you will please answer the questions.
We will give you every opportunity of explanation but we can never arrive at a meeting of minds if you don't address yourself to the case. Now I asked you first how many Jews you ordered killed and you said you did not order the execution of any Jew because he was a Jew. That naturally infers that you did order the execution of some Jews not because they were Jews but for some other reasons - they were saboteurs, looters or anytning that called for the death sentence. Now, I ask you: how many Jews did you order killed for a reason other than their race or nationality?
A. Even that I cannot say because this was not investigated and was essentially uninteresting. If a group of Partisans was captured which was active as Partisans and they were shot they were shot because of this deed. Nobody bothered to find out how many Jews were among them. Apart from the fact how could one find out that?
Q. All right, now you have brought up from your memory a Partisan action and you say that once demonstrated they are Partisans they are shot under the rules of war. Now you must have had in mind some particular episode when you volunteered that. Now tell us of one particular case where Partisans were captured and then shot. Tell us of the episode that you must have been thinking about when you volunteered that illustration.
A. I do not relate this as a recollection but I am repeating what was repeated to me from the Partisan area.
Q. Did you shoot any Partisans while you were in Russia?
A. My Kommando shot Partisans in Russia under my responsibility.
Q. Did you order the execution of any Partisans in Russia?
A. I did not need to give it as in an area in a definite case the Army leader approved of the undertaking.
Q. Witness, we are now going to have our recess and between now and 1:45 I want you to rake through your memory, comb through your recollections, and be prepared to answer when we reconvene at 1:45 the details of the executions in Russia, Russian executions which you ordered for any reason whatsoever.
The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45 and during that time the witness will not talk to anybody.
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 9 December 1947).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. WALTON: If it please the Tribunal, there is a matter of a witness which concerns Dr. Gawlik and myself. I feel that I should have an expression from the Tribunal on the matter, and I would appreciate if the Tribunal would instruct the Marshal to call Dr. Gawlik to be in court at such times as the present witness is finished with his examination, if the Tribunal will permit it.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The provost marshal will please instruct Dr. Gawlik to be available this afternoon so that he may be present when the succeeding witness takes the stand.
EXAMINATION (Continued) BY THE PRESIDENT: just before recess we were discussing certain features of your activities in Russia. Now, we hope you understand that there is no intention on the part of the Tribunal to have you answer a question in any way other than the truth. We don't want you to believe that we press you unduly for an answer, but you must understand this is a very serious business. You have taken the witness stand and have voluntarily decided to give evidence. No defendant is required to testify unless he so desires, and his refusal to testify cannot be used against him. But since you have taken the stand and have volunteered to reply to questions put to you by your counsel and you have stated certain propositions, then naturally you must be subjected to further inquiry as to the correctness of these positions which you have advanced.
It is entirely immaterial to the Tribunal what the eventual result will be in any given case, but it is very important to the Tribunal that the truth be known, and if we do not receive the truth, then it is very difficult to arrive at a correct determination in any given instance. months. You went there as a soldier. You went there specifically as a leader of a certain group of men, maybe 130. Now, you conducted certain activities there, and how you conducted those activities will determine whether you are guilty or innocent of the crimes charged against you in the indictment. Now we ask you specifically in all this period of time that you were in Russia how many executions you ordered, and we have been unable yet to determine with some assurance that your answer is the answer which you desire. Just how many executions took place as a result of your order? Now, we will ask you again, in all the time that you were in Russia as leader of Einsatzkommando 12, how many executions did you order?
A. Your Honor, I understand how serious your words are, and I have always considered this to be very serious. When searching my conscience before I was not able to find out, and the hour you granted me did not help either to find an answer. A final conclusion I consider impossible in view of the circumstances. Why, I can't establish a definite figure, is because of the particularity of my assignment since my actual work started from October onwards. This makes it impossible for me to give a precise figure. The overlapping in the previous time in the commando make it difficult for me to decide what happened during the time when I was in charge of the commando and what happened during the time when I was not in charge of the commando, events which might possibly have happened during the time I was in charge and about which I only heard later on only could hear about later through reports.
to me which we will let you have because we think it is very helpful. We do not ask yo give us a precise figure and then hold you to that figure. That isn't the purpose of the Tribunal at all. We know that memory is a fallible function of the body and of the brain, but we also know that memory cannot discard the recollection of horrible events. Now, the killing of a human being is the sum total of horror. It is the ultimate in human distress, and whether you are on the receiving end or the giving end of death, it makes its imprint on the brain and on the heart in a way that nothing can eradicate it. So when we ask you to recall how many people you ordered executed, we don't expect you to give one definite precise, unchangeable figure, and then if that should vary from another figure that it would appear that you had purposely lied, but we do expect that you can as a reasonable and rational person give some judgment, some estimate on this very serious business of killing people. your question, I should like you to consider that however difficult each killing must be for the person who carries it out, an event about which one only learns from a piece of paper does not impress one so deeply, and one does not notice particularly whether this concerns only one event reported by a subkommando far away or whether it is reported from a foreign unit, because a definite idea and imagination cannot be connected with this.
That it should particularly have been done by a unit of mine and under my charge, the majority of reports which were received in my territory, and particularly up to October, mostly concerned events in other units, which are also used in my reports, as it was my duty to do. of 94 Jews during the harvest season, don't you? deeply because it was a single event, the only one which had happened before August. This was the one event of the commandos which was discussed. is that the way you recollect that? during the entire period from June until the end of August when I was stationed there, this was the only event which occurred, the only event of its kind, and therefore it impressed itself on my mind as a special event. I gave no collective reports about other events at that time. This event is, therefore, an individual incident and impressed my memory as something special.
Q All right. You remember this because it happened between June and August and it was the only episode which occurred at that time. Now, do you remember anything between September and November of that year? the time which I can overlook the least throughout my entire activity.
November? after taking over the commando again, I also found reports about shootings.
Q Did you know that these 94 were to be killed? were to be executed?
Q When did you find out that they had been executed? execution when the troop officer reported this to me verbally. these executions had been properly done?
Q Please answer my question. Did you investigate to determine whether each one of these 94 was worthy of death? happened. and decided whether in each case the person who had been killed had done something which merited death under the laws under which you were operating? so far away and could not come to me first. didn't even trouble yourself to find out whether the 94 had been properly killed? on the report ...
of these people were innocent, could you have done anything?
A. Certainly, I could have made the troop leader responsible for this..
Q. Yes. Then there was a point in investigating to determine whether the 94 deaths were in order, wasn't there?
A. Could I have that again?
Q. Then there would have been a reason to investigate these 94 deaths to determine whether they were in accordance with the law?
A. Not according to the explanation which the troop leader gave me.