A Yes. Also, there was the special task of overcoming the difficulties which arose owing to the fact that fighting had been going on in these areas -- in particular, the Red Army, in order to prevent the bringing in of the harvest in as far as they could, had destroyed all the machinery, or destroyed parts of it, and now it was the task to manage it so that one machine which would work, could be built out of several parts that the seythes, which were brought by airplane from the Reich in tens of thousands, be distributed to the various localities, so That the population, inasfar as they did not have machines, could at least bring in the harvest as far as possible with these primitive means.
Q (By Dr. Hoffmann) Now, witness, concerning the charges which are raised against you, I ask you again -During such time, did any shooting take place, or did you hear of any? place in the village of Bobchinski. The troop officer of one platoon, who was in charge of the locality of Babchinski there -- reported a shooting to me when he reported back to the headquarters in Chanomin.
DR. HOFFMANN: Very well. Just as you wish, Dr. Hoffmann. It would be well if you always -- if you recall it -- give the date of the particular episode which is being discussed -- approximately.
Q (By DR. Hoffmann) What was the date, approximately?
A I cannot say exactly. I said it must have been in this time -- that is during the time between the 10th and 23rd of August 1941.
Q When did the platoon return -- on the 23rd? platoon reported back?
Q Is this in the document which I already mentioned? assignments?
A Yes, I, personally, did. The Einsatzgruppen chief gave me the order to go to Jampol, and, through negotiations with the German commander, or with the Roumanian agencies or the Roumanian officer, to achieve that a larger number of Roumanian Jews be brought back to their district, who, some time before, through the Roumanian troops, had been moved out of Roumanian across the Dnestr River into the German rear army territory.
Q When was this? 20th of August.
Q And you obeyed this order -- you obeyed it? it necessary in order to carry this out, and one or two other vehicles came along, and some officers, and some more men -perhaps three or four men -- or perhaps a second car -perhaps two cars, aside from mine -- I am not quite sure now. I then travelled the long distance to Jampol. I returned, because I had already passed Jampol once, when travelling from Orchanka and Chanomin -- the distance, I think, was about 80 or perhaps 100 kilometers.
tell us precisely how many of you there were when you travelled to Jampol, and how you were equipped, if you can remember.
AAt least two officers. Also an interpreter, and five or six men.
Q And what equipment did you have?
A I probably had my automatic rifle with me. The men had carbines, or pistols.
Q Why did you carry your automatic rifle? Was there any particular reason?
A No, certainly not. But instructions had been given that no vehicle should travel alone -- and may I say that all this time in Russia I never travelled without my automatic pistol, whether I travelled to the hospital, or whether I went anywhere else.
Q Why? Why -- was it dangerous? Why did you have to carry an automatic pistol? as much, but later on one noticed it much more, and it became more and more necessary -- and, may I say that in the winter it became necessary to sleep with one's clothes on and to have the automatic pistol next to the bed. Jampol when you arrived there. I found out that a second bridge had been built since, which was just about to be completed. Then I travelled on the road which led from Jampol toward Mogilew. Just outside the town cooking.
I did not see any German soldiers and members of the security police guarding it.
They moved about freely, order was in that situation.
What were you to do?
Not to shoot them. But the order from the Einsatzgruppen
Q We have not come to that yet, witness. When you order meant?
Why importance was attached to it?
Roumanian Jews. I had heard that in Mogilew a number of resisted.
I think I even heard that they had tried to Jews to return.
In any case -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Hoffmann, this episode will be of it first.
Now, these Jews were in a camp. Is that right?
DR. HOFFMANN: No. Not a closed camp, but they were just in an open field.
That is how I understand the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: In his affidavit he said, "There was in Jampol a camp of I should say, three thousand Jews." Is that right, witness? Were they in some sort of a camp?
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, this expression is rather unfortunate. There are camps, and there are camps! I already said they were not guarded. I did not see any German soldiers, nor members of the security police guarding it, but they were free and just camping there.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it was ca camp?
THE WITNESS: No, they were camping there.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if they were camping, it is a camp, isn't it. If you camp, you camp -- then it becomes a camp. I think this would be a good place for us to camp for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. MAYER: Dr. Mayer for the defendant Steimle. Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Steimle be excused this coming Monday from that session in order to prepare the documents.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Steimle will be excused from attendance in court next Monday all day so he may work with his attorney in the preparation of the document book.
DR. MAYER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Hoffman, we were talking about camps before we decamped, and we would like to get this situation so then we can understand the unfolding of the narrative. Now, we understand there were three-thousand Jews in Jampol, is that right?
DR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And they remained in a meadow?
DR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, the number three-thousand I mentioned as a quick estimate, and I had to give it here during my examination which was after I had driven here for half a day and a whole night, and half an hour stay here, when I was immediately interrogated here.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but we will go into that later. what I want to do now is to get a rough idea of what this episode is about.
THE WITNESS: Everything else is correct, but the estimate of three-thousand was too small. After I thought this over it must have been six to seven-thousand people.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. There were six to seven thousand Jews in the group living together at least temporarily at a certain spot in Jampol, is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Now were they under guard?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you received orders to do something with these Jews. Now what were the orders?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What were the orders, what you were to do with the Jews?
THE WITNESS: The order was as follows: These Jews who had been brought to Jampol from Mogilew, as I knew it, were to be lead across the bridge, and this was to be done by overcoming the Rumanian resistance which had been shown in Mogilew, and the retransfer had to be effected there, because there was the only bridge where this could be done.
THE PRESIDENT: What did this bridge span? Was it a river?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the bridge was over the Dnjestr River.
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, the Dnjestr River is missing on the map.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. Then you were to take these Jews over the Dnjestr River to where?
THE WITNESS: Yes, merely into the Rumanian territory.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right, now generally we have an idea what it is about and you may develop it further, Dr. Hoffman. BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q. Witness, first of all a question, do you think that a camp must always have a fence?
A. No.
Q. Thus, if there were six to seven thousand Jews camping, there was a camp also, and the President is correct?
A. The President is always correct, yes.
Q. Why were these Jews to be brought back into the Rumanian territory?
A. The last decisions, or better the preliminary thoughts I can not give you, because this was not my job, but, of course, it seems credible to me and understandable that in this situation it was not up to us to have a helpless population driven into our territory, which only had to cause us difficulties, because they were staying there and they could not be sheltered there, and didn't even belong to us, they were Rumanian citizens.
Q. But there was an order to shoot Jews?
A. Yes, certainly, but I would say that we had nothing to do with Rumanian citizens, and the Hitler Order could not extend to Rumanian citizens, and could not be valid in the Rumanian territory.
Q. And why did the Rumanians not want to take back their own citizens?
A. I can not explain that. I could not have insight into Rumanian affairs. It was certain that we had to get rid of the Jews in some manner or other, and, it was the simple way that one would drive them out of ones own territory and to leave them to the Germans.
THE PRESIDENT: And how did they get over there in the first place?
THE WITNESS: The way I heard about it, the Rumanians drove them out of their own old Rumanian territory, that is, Bessarabia, across the Dnjestr River, and after that they blocked off the bridge, and now they were at our charge.
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, maybe it would be helpful to the Tribunal if I submitted a map, which gives the territory in detail.
We have only one copy.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it would be very interesting to see it, Dr. Hoffmann. (Shows map at the Bench) You show it to him, and then you show it to us afterwards.
DR. HOFFMAN: Yes. (Shows map to the witness, thereafter Dr. Hoffman returns to the bench with the same map, where a discussion ensues outside the record).
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q. What did you do to see to it that the Jews be brought back to Rumanian territory?
A. I already said that I left Jampol and arrived at the large camping site, and I went right into the midst tive, or might speak for them. After some talking back and forth a coup of men came to see me. I asked them whether they came from Mogilew, and they said, yes. I told them that they would be brought across the bridge, and could go back to their homeland, but I can not as yet tell them exactly when. I hoped it would be the same day. They were very joyous about this.
Q. Did these Rumanian citizens want to go back there?
A. Absolutely. According to my impression it was the greatest desire to go back home.
Q. And how do you know that these were Rumanian Jews. Did you understand their language, or what was it?
A. They told me from where they came. I had an interto the German language, even in these areas, where I could make myself understood well enough.
Q. And now please describe for us briefly what you actually did?
A. We went to the bridge, and when I arrived there I found a German engineer bridge building company. I asked for their commanding officer. A technical master sergeant reported to me. I told him what my mission was. In the course of the conversation we established the fact we were somehow known to each other, and, when we went into the matter further we found out that he come from my hometown. He was a lawyer in Hallo, and his name is DR. Harsch. He knew me from my activity with my attorney, and from work in the courts. He promises to be of help to me. He told me that the other bridge would be possible within a few hours, and it would then be possible to take care of the west-East supply columns by transferring this traffic to the new bridge so that the other bridge would be at my disposal in order to bring the Rumanians back. Then we would have to set up second bridge command and the signs would have to be changed. He promised to take care of that. Then I went to the Rumanians and asked for their commanding officer. He was not present. It was of no use to speak to the Rumanian enlisted men. I told them that the traffic on this bridge would be re-routed today. They should occupy the other bridge and change the sign, but only when the German bridge commander would tell them to do so. All of this was taken care of. I agreed with the German bridge commander at about six or eight o'clock at night, safer as I remember, that the traffic would be re-routed to the new bridge, and then I had the camping Jews notified that they should stop preparing their meals, and should arrange their stuff and to place themselves in formation one hour after the traffic had been rerouted and they would be brought back across the bridge.
I remained until this had taken place; left the village and already at the appointed edge of the town the point of the column was standing at the determined time and then started marching. I was up in the front at the Rumanian side of the shore, and let this column pass by me. They left in about one to one and a half hours, I can not say exactly, it was a close column. A few times there were interruptions but the thing took its course in one go.
There were some officers I had, or some man, to find out whether anybody was left at that camp site. I can not say whether I was there myself. I would assume so, but no one was there, and we didn't expect any one who would want to remain there, That completed my mission. I thanked the men. I thanked the German bridge commander, and early the next morning I went back to the Garrison in Tscharnomin and made a report about it to the Satzgruppe chief, and told them about the fact this camp had been quickly taken care of, for which I had to thank nobody but the German bridge commander.
Q. Witness who was the German bridge commander?
A. The German bridge commander was the then master sergeant in the engineers company, by profession, an attorney, Dr. Harsch of Halle.
Q. Could this German bridge commander observe this whole procession from the beginning to the end?
A. Yes absolutely.
Q. And did any shootings take place on this occasion?
A. Certainly not.
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, may I notify the Tribunal that just today I received the address of this German bridge commander by telegram, therefore, I would want to make an application to hear this witness, perhaps. I would be glad if I might suggest that neither I nor the Prosecutor examine this witness, but that the witness be interrogated by the Tribunal here in the interest of an immediate hearing.
THE PRESIDENT: That is entirely satisfactory to the Tribunal, and I would suggest that you notify the defense information center to telegraph this man to proceed to Nurnberg to testify in this case, and to report to the defense information center.
DR. HOFFMANN: Yes. BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q. How long did your command remain in Tscharnomin?
A. Only a few more days. I think that on the 23rd the Group-staff left this place and went to Ananjew, and there the Commando X-B was transferred also. One or two days later Einsatzcommando XII left Tscharnomin, all of it.
Q. Where did your commando go?
A. It had the order to proceed to the Ethnic German areas, into that area which includes the German Settlement Area in Tscharnomin.
Q. What was the cause and what was the nature of the work assigned up there?
A. The cause of this was the following: not be discussed here, and which in its Eastern frontier border at the Bug River, was declared to be part of the Rumanian Sovereign territory at that time. That is, the Rumanian Sovereign territory was extended up to that point, East. I assume that because of this the commandos which were to bring in the harvest had to interrupt their work because the German Economic Command of the Army, as well as all the other agencies, had to leave this area because If it became Rumanian Sovereign territory, then it was no longer German rear Army area, End, therefore, all German agencies in this area evacuated that territory, and, thus, the necessity of the new work which Einsatzcommando XII got, was the protection of the interest of the large settlements of Ethnic Germans in this area.
Q Was this also Rumanian sovereign territory? never became an area of the German civil administration. On one of the maps existing the Bug is denoted as a special border. such a German occupation? between the German Army agencies there and between the Rumanian Army leadership and between the German agencies there, and were made in Berlin. I can imagine that it was the Army Staff of the 11th Army and that it agreed with the Rumanian war leadership, and that because of this agreement it was permitted to a German commando to look after the interests of these ethnic Germans.
Q Against what were they to be protected? immediate protection against excesses of military units or other people from the population. Without passing any judgment on our then Allies, the Rumanians it can be said , as is shown by many reports, and as we are able to establish it from our own experience, that the Rumanians soldiers were very much undisciplined.
Q When did the advance from Tscharnomin come about?
Q And what was your objective? definite objective, if I disregard the fact that Speyer was the Center of this area, in which place, weeks ago, the Special Commando 10-A of Einsatzgruppe D had been stationed and had been active. Furthermore, it was our mission to distribute the commando in the smallest detachments over the whole area in such a manner of ten that often there were only two, three or four men; that it might be possible to get hold of these ethnic Germans, to register them, and as far as they were living in mixed settlements with Ukrainians, to get them out by exchanging them, and resettle them in purely German areas.
Q Why did the Special Commando 10-A not remain there? 10-A was attached to d definite Army unit and that it always moved with this Army unit. The front had been advanced further forward and the Commando 10-A probably had kept its Army unit to the front, but Einsatzkommando 12 was not subordinate to any Army unit. activity cease there? that is, until the 15th of October, the last remnants of it had been taken out. I, personally, was not able to do much during this period. Until the first days of September at the latest, I remained active as commanding officer of the commando. Already in the first weeks of our stay in Russia I had to suffer from dysentery and hardly any of the officers or men were spared from this disease,I think not even Herr Ohlendorf himself.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any special reason why it did not hit him.
THE WITNESS: No. BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q Witness please don't become so extended. We know that you got dysentery, Herr Ohlendorf too, and that you got sick of another disease.
A It was a complication. I had an intestinal ailment, and after the examination it was found that only by hospital treatment could I be cured. I had myself examined at a field hospital. When I reported to the Einsatzgruppe Chief in Ananjev, that is about a week after we had left, and after I had distributed some parts of my unit among the area, the Einsatzgruppe Chief noted that I was painfully ill. He asked me about it, and I told him what the examination had resulted in, and he ordered that I should go into a hospital, that he would give the command of the commando to Captain Haussmann and "when you are all right again, report back to me."
Q When was this exactly?
Q And how long did you stay in the hospital and where? had been moved. I had even the commando to Haussmann, and it must have been around the 6th or 8th of September that I was admitted into the Field Hospital 227. The Hospital was in Hove Odessa on the other side of the Bug River. That is in the in the German rear Army area.
Q How long did you stay in the hospital? September.
Q And where did you go them? Nikolaev.
Q What orders did you get where you reported there? thus commando, and that I wanted to go back into the area where the Einsatzkommando 12 was active. Then the Einsatzgruppe Chief told me that this whole work had been interrupted, a detail of the Office for Registration of Ethnic Germans was moving in. That was the Reich agency or the Reich organization which was competent for such tasks, namely the registration and supply and care of these people, and when the commando of this agency moved in, the units of Einsatzkommando 12, after handing over their functions, were to be relieved.
Q And where was the commando to go then? Nikolaev in order to await new orders there, namely, to be attached to a new Army.
Q And when did the commando actually arrive in Nikolaev?
A The various detachments came after each other. I executed the order by notifying the various detachments that after the command of the agency for ethnic Germans had arrived that they should leave, and the first ones arrived in the first days of October, and the last around the 15th of October. That is when the last part must have arrived in Nikolaev.
Q What activity did you have in Nikolaev?
A In Nikolaev I reorganized the commando. We went into the billets of Commando 11-A, I believe, which had been active in Nikolaev previously. The Chief III of the Group Staff and others assigned the commando various missions in the reporting service about the domestic problem there, about the economic reconstruction, about industry, shipbuilding, social structure, etc. you received? the commando from the 15th of October on lasted only ten days. Then again parts of the commando were already on the march.
Q And where were they supposed to go? attached to the 17th Army which was then about seven hundred kilometers further east, in the area between Rostov and Stalino, where it was active and where it was advancing. it had been with the 17th Army?
A. It would have been committed . the way the Commando 10-A was committed with the 11th Army. They moved along and took care of all Security Police measures as the others did.
Q. Did you proceed?
A. As far as the time is concerned, nothing was changed, but during those days messaged had been received about increasing partisan activity in the Dnjepr Bend. These were bands which had come from the swamp area and which threatened the supply columns.
Q. Witness, you now use the word "band" for the first time. When were you aware of this and when did these partisan groups appear?
A. Until I went to Nikolaev I personally did not experience a anything of an express partisan warfare.
Q. When was this?
A. Until I arrived in Nikolaev on the 15th of October.
Q. What year?
A. 1941. That refers to my commando and my own experience.
Q. And now you suddenly heard something about partisan groups?
A. I had already heard partisan groups from other commandos which were already operating hundreds of kilometers east of myself; the reports came from the Einsatzgruppe of from the Army. The Army now decreed that the Einsatzgruppe was to become active in such a way that security was maintained.
Q. And what definite mission did you get now in this connection?
A. There was another area which was especially threated by bands. That was the dune territory of the Dnjepr Delta. That was a completely opposite direction from the Dnjepr Bend. The one was northwards, the other southeast. Therefore the commando was divided into two parts, and one-half was attached to Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Bolte who had just arrived and subordinated to him who was equivalent in rank to myself.
He received the order to operate in this area. I don't know his orders, and I don't know exactly, but I assume that he operated with Army units.
Q. Thus there was another half of Commando 12 which remained?
A. Yes, and I went on with his half.
Q. What was the first objective?
A. The mission was partisan warfare in the Dnjepr Bend. Thus I picked out a point on the map which might serve as our first objective, and purely by the map I established the village Mikailowka.
Q. How far was Mikailowka from your garrison?
A. As the crow flies it was at least 300 kilometers from Nikolaev.
Q. When did you get there?
A. I personally got there around the 8th or 10th of November, but now it must be mentioned that this detachment which I led did not march in one column but in two for the following reason: Because vehicles had dropped out and because vehicles had been surrendered to other units I was forced to equip half of the detachment with horses; horses disturbed the supply column of the road, of the main road, which was only provided for heavy trucks.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Hoffmann, is all this detail necessary?
DR. HOFFMANN: No, it is a little bit too extended. I shall shorten it a little.
THE PRESIDENT: He went into action, and get to the action, what it was, but how many horses they had and the dust they created and the flies, etc., is a little bit excessive.
Q. (By Dr. Hoffman) When did you arrive in Mikailowka?
A. I personally got there on the 6th of November, and the equipment of the other detachment with horses -
Q. I just want to ask you directly, when did you arrive there?
A. Half of my men came in on the 6th of November with me by vehicle about.
Q. That is, on the 6th of November you could start with your mission?
A. Partly, because now another half was missing.
Q. How many were you there?
A. The people that arrived with me included the administrative people, and other people who were fit for combat were about 25 men.
Q. What did you do there; how did you fight the partisans?
A. First I tried to determine where the other people were because I wanted to know what was the matter, and then I heard through a courier who had come from Nikopol that the other half had got stuck in Nikopol and had been already committed by the Army to fight partisans in the Dnjepr Bend. Then I got the first report about fights and arrests and shootings of partisans. I handed this report to the group.
Q. Did you make any other reports at this time?
A. Yes, several. I personally went around. I was active in reconnaissance of partisans. We advanced from Mikailowka in a northerly direction, and several times we had fights with partisans though not very severe as the group led by the Army, but we found out that these were only minor units with which we were dealing, and that the decisive cleaning of these islands was handled by that group which included half of my own detachment.
Q. What was the report like which you made out?
A. Well, there were several reports. The fights took place at various times, and I got various reports. Thus in the first report it was stated how many groups there were, how they were equipped, who commanded. We found this out through deserters, and thing like this: How many were shot in the fight; who were the leading partisans; and that partisan prisoners had been released because they had just been recruited under threats. Thus in three or four reports these matters were handed down to Group.