For him sometimes a stamp was put in, the seal. The transfer, the transport of an inmate was done by the local police authorities who always were the transport agency for prisoners in Germany. confine someone to a concentration camp was signed by Heydrich and later Kaltenbrunner?
Q And before that Heydrich? Police.
Q And this was there, that is, with each order? concentration camp was signed by him personally or the Chief of Office IV was provided with the stamp of his name in his absence, but always it bore the signature of the Chief of the Security Police. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, how long were you in the Gestapo? Gestapo until the 20th of September, 1944. That is to say, for this period I differentiate the following. As director of a regional State Police Agency, I was active from the fall of 1936 until the fall of 1937. That is, one year I was active as such. In between I had another occupation. Later I became again a director of a regional police agency, from July 1938, until July, 1939, and then a third time from October 1943, until September 1944.
that all commitments to concentration camps were signed either by Heydrich or by Kaltenbrunner?
AAbsolutely. It never happened any differently. In this case I refer to the time before the war. 1943, '44, the commitments which were connected with the regional authority of a State Police Agency also happened as a result of an individual paper which carried the facsimile stamp of Kaltenbrunner. Heydrich or Kaltenbrunner was more or less a formality, wasn't it?
Q. Now, Witness, do you want to tell us that Heydrich investigated every case of a concentration-camp consignment or commitment?
A. Your Honor, I personally was not in the RSHA in this activity, and I can only judge these circumstances from my own activity in a regional office, but later when I was active in the RSHA and got to know one or the other officials who dealt with this matter, I heard then that these commitments to concentration camps were actually signed by the chief or by the office chief.
Q. Well, Witness, what I am asking you is this, Heydrich and later Kaltenbrunner could not have investigated every commitment to a concentration camp, could they?
A. No, certainly not.
Q. All right. Then it was a mere formality, the adding of a facsimile signature with a stamp, or the signing of their name by one of may deputies?
A. Still I don't believe so, your Honor, for in view of the number, and I am now speaking for the time before the war, it was very easy and absolutely possible to have the cases brought before you, those cases which were supposed to be consigned to concentration camps, for I know from my time in Frankfurt on the Oder, and later in Graz, that in this area of 800,000 people not more than thirty to forty people were in a concentration camp.
Q. Now, just a moment, Witness, don't let's drift. In 1939, on September 1st, about how many people were in the concentration camps of Germany?
A. Your Honor, from my state police activity I never was able to find this out.
Q. Well, you know now, don't you, that there were tens of thousands at least, don't you?
A. Yes, through the Expert for Protective Custody, Dr. Berndorf, whom I met in one of the interment camps, I talked to him about what is true of the concentration camps what is not true.
Q. Just a moment now. By September 1, 1939, there were many tens of thousands in concentration camps in Germany, that is correct, isn't it?
A. After his - according to his statement about 30,000.
Q. All right. Now, do you seriously believe that Heydrich examined or investigated or reviewed the cases of these 30,000?
A. Your Honor, certainly not.
Q. Very well. Then let's work this out logically. Then it isn't true that Heydrich could review every case which bore his signature?
A. Your Honor, the following has to be explained.
Q. Now, please answer that question. Just a moment, it isn't true that Heydrich investigated every case which bore his signature?
A. No, your Honor.
Q. All right. Then there were other people who had to pass upon the case, and his signature was attached without even his knowledge. That happened in most of the cases, didn't it?
A. No, no, your Honor.
Q. New, how many these 30,000 did Heydrich himself personally review?
A. Your Honor, that is a question which goes beyond my knowledge.
Q. Well now listen, Witness, you are there in the witness stand to give us the truth, and please be careful about the statements you make. Now you have told the Tribunal that Heydrich signed every commitment to the concentration camps. I asked you whether Heydrich could possibly have investigated every case.
You said no. You said there were 30,000 about in the concentration camps in September, 1939. I asked you whether in most of these cases Heydrich could not possibly have reviewed the cases, and you did not agree with that statement. Now, tell me of the 30, how many do you believe Heydrich actually reviewed?
A. Your Honor, I cannot give a precise answer because I do not know, but I can say the following: The increase of the number of inmates, who in the year 1937 amounted to about six to seven thousand, to the number of about 30,000, did not come about through an increase of activity of the Gestapo but through one single action, through one wholesale operation where the Reich Criminal Police Office arrested or took twenty to thirty thousand professional criminals and put them in protective custody into the concentration camps.
Q. Did Heydrich sign these commitments of the 30,000 which you have just mentioned?
A. I do not know.
Q. Well. why do you say then that Heydrich signed
A. I can only speak of my sector, and I can only say what I experienced with the State Police.
Q. You said very emphatically that Heydrich signed every commitment, Now, did he or did he not?
A. Those of the state Police Agency, yes.
Q. Heydrich signed every commitment to a concentration camp in Germany while he was still alive?
A. I do not know. Those of the State Police with which we had to do, yes, he signed everyone of those.
Q. Why did you say that every commitment to a concentration camp was signed by Heydrich?
A. Because I could not make this addition this explanation which I now was able to make.
Q. Then now we come back to the original propsition, Heydrich did not sign every commitment to a concentration, camp?
A. I do not know; I cannot say.
Q. All right then, your answer is you do not know whether Heydrich signed every commitment to a concentration camp.
A. No, but those concerned with the Security Police, or the State Police with which we were concerned officially, and we were only speaking in connection with my service, those Heydrich signed, all.
Q. Did Heydrich sign every commitment to a concentration camp by the Gestapo?
A. I suppose so, from the conversations I had with other friends, that it did not happen in any other way with the other agencies.
signed every commitment to a concentration camp through the Gestapo? police offices under my supervision was any different from the other agencies in the rest of the Reich. camp commitment that was recommended by the Gestapo? in, let us say, the year 1938? by my regional agencies. recommended by the Gestapo? concentration camp commitment through the Gestapo?
A I cannot say. he signed them and he had people present documents to him about it. reviewed the case? commitment through the Gestapo?
AAbsolutely,. your Honor. THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed Dr. Hoffmann. BY DR. HOFFMANN: asked you. Did you, in your agency in Frankfurt on the Oder, have a stamp with the name Heydrich?
A Never. The forms which were sent from Berlin, the printed forms to consign people to camps were sent from Berlin in duplicate and we ourselves had nothing to do with this and could not print them outselves.
That was out of the question.
Q Thus you sent your cases to Berlin?
Q And Berlin decided? camp or not, but I may add that a report was made about every case, no matter what the RSHA or its chief would decide in the individual case. If any crimes were committed against the State laws, the cases had to be turned over to the courts and if any doubts existed whether a court had jurisdiction, then Berlin would examine and would ask for completions and additions, renewed interrogations, and then Berlin made its decision and said the individual concerned is to be handed over to the court or is to be dismissed or is to be reprimanded or something else.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Hoffmann, Heydrich was made chief of the Security Police and SD on June 26, 1936. I would like to have defense counsel or prosecution counsel obtain for the Tribunal, if it is possible, the figures as to the number of people committed to concentration camps between June, 1936 and June, 1942 when Heydrich died, in view of the witness's statement that he knows that Heydrich reviewed every case of people sent to the concentration camps during that period via the Gestapo.
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, may I say the following. If I remember correctly in the case against Pohl the prosecution stated the exact number of the inmates in the concentration camps until 1939 and had them submitted. May I take the liberty to look for this, and since it is a public document I don't have to submit it specially. I also remember the trial of the IMT and the interrogation of Kaltenbrunner where actually it was Said that facsimile stamps with the name Kaltenbrunner were distributed among the Berlin agencies and that the departments concerned used this facsimile stamp. May I take the liberty to look for those things, and to submit them?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, any information which can be obtained regarding the number of people committed to concentration camps via the Gestapo will be in order. BY DR. HOFFMANN: you did as director of the State police agency in Frankfurt on the Oder? I had the overall direction, that is, the organization and the administration which took up most of my time. In addition there was the responsible leadership of the executive activities, for every report, except for the fact that I may have been absent to the RSHA, was personally signed by me. The main activity was already in the field of counter intelligence. The counter intelligence activity of the police was carried on in agreement with the military agencies who did not themselves have any executive officers, that is, in their investigation capacity they had to rely on our officials. active with the supervision, shadowing and prosecution of political opponents? which came to our attention had. of course. to be prosecuted. attention? Did you make a report?
A Yes. of course, the necessary investigations were made, interrogations were conducted, and a report was made to me or the executive official and the result of the investigation was submitted.
Q Did you yourself undertake arrests? regional police agency arrests were necessary, but the number of the arrests was actually not large for this whole district and at this time it was an exceptional case, for the regional state police agency only had the right to arrest a man for the duration of ten days.
After these ten days had expired the arrested man would either have to be dismissed or be handed over to the courts. legal basis or directive or decree? On what did you base yourselves when making these arrests? the Secret State Police which is organized on Article 48 of the Reich Constitution and then the other Reich laws, and above all the civil penal code about treason were wholly valid and were used just as they were used before Hitler took over.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Hoffmann, would you also try to submit to the Tribunal the directive, decree, law, order or legislation which stated that the Gestapo could hold a detainee only ten days? Upon the termination of the ten days he either had to be released or turned over to the courts. That is the statement made by the witness and we would be very grateful if you could submit to us the documentary proof of that order or decree.
DR HOFFMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. BY DR. HOFFMANN: the Jewish faith? in this connection of my own personal activity.
Q. Did this happen in your agency in Frankfurt on the Oder in the years 1936 to 1939, and to what extent and on what basis?
A. During the activity in the direction of these state police agencies in Frankfurt on the Oder and Graz no Jews were arrested, only because they were Jews, but as anyone else who violated any Reich Law or any decree, that is, a cumulative arrest was not carried out by me.
Q. For what period are you saying this, witness?
A. I say this for the period from September, 1937 -- no, from September, 1936 to September, 1937, and from July, 1938 to July, 1939.
Q. Did you ever get orders from Berlin to arrest Jews?
A. I remember very clearly one decisive case, but that was the only case which, for the periods I have named, was concerned at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, why don't you answer your attorney's question very directly? He said did you ever receive any orders from Berlin to are rest Jews. Now, the answer to that is yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes, in this one case.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Then you want to say there was only once that you received such an order?
THE WITNESS: For this period, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Al right, let's be very specific. All right, proceed, Dr. Hoffmann.
Q. (By Dr. Hoffmann) When was this?
A. That was in connection with the incidents of the 9th and 10th of November, 1938.
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, may I take the liberty to come back to this later?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
Q. (By Dr. Hoffmann) Witness, I now want to determine definitely from when to when were you in Frankfurt on the Oder?
A. I was in Frankfurt on the Oder from the fall of 1936 until September, 1937 as director of the State Police; after that, as a coworker for the border inspector.
He was senor Government Councilor Damzog, who at that time had moved his office from Breslau to Frankfurt on the Oder.
Q. And what happened to you when your activity in Frankfurt on the Oder ceased? Where did you go then?
A. My activity in Frankfurt on the Oder ended in July, 1938, but in the period in between, that is to say, from the 10th of March on, for the duration of three months, I was used as a liaison officer between the security police and the regular police and was sent to Graz in Austria in this capacity. From this time on I returned to Frankfurt and from July, 1938 on I was again given the direction of the State police office, and this activity ended after one year, end of July, 1939, At that time the border inspector Southeast was transferred and was not replaced by another person. Therefore, I was put in charge of the border inspector's job for this part of Southeastern frontier of the Reich, as a deputy. I was in this position when war broke out.
Q. And what happened after the war broke out?
A. I remained in this position after war broke out until Easter, 1941. At that time the Southeastern campaign in the Balkans was finished and that ended my activity and my security job and my customs job ceased because the border was occupied by the military.
Q. Witness, in Graz up to the period which you stated in the year 1941, did you have any activity other than in Frankfurt or was it the same?
A. If you mean Frankfurt, the time when I was with the inspector, yes, but if you mean the time during which I was with the state police, then no.
Q. I understand you correctly then that you performed the same activity in Frankfurt on the Oder as you did in Graz?
A. Yes. First of al, direction of a state police agency and then a purely inspectional job with the border police.
Q. What happened to you when your job in Graz became superfluous?
A. I was called to Berlin and I was given a temporary job. This job was to suspend the state police agency at Aachen.
I was to be changed and reorganized into another agency in another city. Furthermore, the organization of the border police as it had existed thus far in the West was to be adapted to the new conditions in the West owing to the newly acquired territory there.
Q. Witness, how long did this position last?
A. This activity was almost completed when, on the 17th of June, 1941, as I recall, I was called up by the personnel office in Berlin to report to Berlin the next day. When I asked what was the matter they could not answer me. They just told me that I had to count on a lengthy absence.
Q. What happened on the next day?
A. I want ot Berlin, reported to the personnel office, and there they told me that in place of the director of the police agency at Hamburg who had become ill, Government Councilor Creutzer, I was to be sent to an assignment abroad. Creutzer had become ill and the day before they had received an official certificate of his illness and I was taken in his stead.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the date of this, Dr. Hoffmann?
DR. HOFFMANN: I believe the 18th of June.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
Q. (By Dr. Hoffmann) 18th of June?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they tell you on the 18th of June where this assignment would take you and what it was concerned with? A. No, the personnel office told me nothing. They only told me hat on the same day I was to report to the Prinz Albrecht Palace of RSHA and there I would receive my orders and all further information.
Q. Did you then go to the RSHA?
A. Yes, I went there at appointed time and I found 25 to 30 higher ranking SS officers there, of whom two to three were known to me from my previous activities. I knew the chief of Office I, Strecken bach, who was there.
Of other officials I saw other SS officers, such as Nebe, Stahlecker, Rasch, also Standartenfuehrer Ohlendorf. I did not know him at the time. For the first time I found myself in such surroundings and in such a circle of people and I could not find out what was the matter. The officers who were gathered there had already been in Pretzsch or Dueben several days and they only told us that men and vehicles had been collected there.
Q. What was the result of this conference in which you participated? with what result did you leave this place?
A. When we sat down at eh conference table Heydrich appeared and told us the following: The Fuehrer had to decide to take up the fight against the Soviet Union. It was a matter of getting ahead of Bolshevism, but his time it was not only a matter of a military opponent but an ideological one, and this opponent is a fanatic fighter and the fight would be ruthless. The breaking of the Bolshevist system was, however, not only the job of the security police but was also the job of the Army, and the Fuehrer had made this clear to the Army unequivocable and had given it the same orders. Ont the basis of the Fuehrer order it had become possible or arrange an agreement between the Wehrmacht and the security police.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Hoffmann, he is now going to go into the details of his instructions, and I think this might be a good point at which to break off for the recess, don't you?
DR. HOFFMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will reconvene at 1:45 (A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 4 December 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. HOFFMANN: that you described to the Tribunal what happened in the Prinz Albrecht street. When you gave this description I noticed that you talked about the fuehrerorder on that occasion without having mentioned it before. would you just describe how you got to know about the feuhrerorder first, and the contents of it? Albrecht Palais I had not yet spoken about the fuehrerorder, but Heydrich had told us that war with Russia was unavoidable and that on the basis, of the Hitler order an agreement between the army and the security police could be made on the basis of which Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos were being set up, and were assigned as part of the army.
Q Witness, that was all you were told there? afterwards? were still being set up. The same day, together with quite a number of the leaders who had been also present there, I travelled to Pretsch or to the Duebener Heide, the Duebener Heath, to the stations provided for the units. I myself travelled to Dueben, and one or two days later, I don't exactly remember, we were asked to go to Pretsch because further orders would be given to us there. Together with Herr Ohlendorf, II went there. Streckenbach appeared as deputy of Heydrich, Office Chief 4 was also present. In general, it was almost the same circle of officers whom I had already met in Berlin.
Q What were you told there? we knew the situation, he assumed. The Einsatzgruppen would march with the fighting units. This was the most difficult assignment which the security police would ever deal with. He described to us the difficulties of the task in detail in view of the enemy we would have to deal with. In this connection, I can remember one sentecne verbally which impressed me particularly. He said, "Keep the last bullet for yourself so that you won't fall alive, into the hands of the enemy." Apart from that, he announced to us the order of the fuehrer, that in order to break the bolchevist system it was necessary to eliminate the Bolchevist leading circles, and since the Eastern Jews were its most important bearers, they were to be liquidated, including women and children. This was the order from Hitler. We were under military law, and absolutely had to obey this order.
Q What was the first personal impression you had of this? the others who were present. I could see that the higher officers reacted in such a manner that they immediately went to Streckenbach and disputed the matter very vividly and objected to it. I was one of the lowest ranks present there and, therefore, saw no reason to take part in this objection, because I realized that the high officers were already doing this; and in view of the personal connections which they seemed to have, it would be much better for them to deal with this matter, but I also realized, or I heard that Streckenbach recognized the misgivings, but finally he pointed out that this was the fuehrerorder which could not be charged and which had to be carried out.
Q You witnessed then, Witness, that the order continued to exist?
A Yes. It continued to exist and was not changed. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, what was Streckenbach's rank? in Army terms?
Q Major General. What was the rank of the highest officer in the group that spoke with him?
Q Was there anyone who had a rank higher than Streckenbach?
A I don't quite know. I don't know whether the Office Chief 4, Mueller, was already a Gruppenfuehrer or still a Brigadefuehrer?
Q Were there several at least of the same rank as Streckenbach's rank?
A I think so. Nebe, I believe; Rasch; whether Stahlecker already had that rank, I don't know, but I think so; then there were people, who were one or two ranks lower; some oberfuehrers, and some standartenfuehrers, and then obersturmbannfuehrers, and people of my rank which was the lowest one; the rank of a major, there was perhaps a dozen people. bach?
A Yes. Gruppenfuehrer Mueller was there, but I don't think that he took an important part in the discussion, because, as Streckenbach had said, he had been instructed by Heydrich to tell us about this order. rank according to Streckenbach's did not go further, that is to say, appeal to Heydrich directly? even on the basis of their personal relations which they had, I think that certainly a few of them might have been on familiar terms with Streckenbach-- that they knew Streckenbach so well that he had the authority to say that and that they never doubted that Streckenbach would announce anything or take an authority to which he was not entitled. On the other hand, Office Chief 4 was with him.
The fact that he was present alone and his attitude, even if I don't remember his words, showed that there simply was no doubt about the commission of Streckenbach. Mueller and Ohlendorf and the others?
Q Well, then why couldn't all the officers who objected strenuously to this, including Streckenbach, go to heydrich and point out that it was impossible for them to perform this task?
A It is very difficult for me to answer this question. It originates, rather, it can be answered with the same reasons I gave before. We also expected and it had been said that, before the Einsatzgruppen and commandos were to move Heydrich himself would carry out an inspection. On that occasion the opportunity would arise for those officers to talk to Heydrich himself; whether this happened, I don't know. task I am speaking of, this day when you first learned of the fueherorder, and you say that you heard it with not only misgivings but with some shock, and this revulsion was shared by other officers, and officers equivalent in rank to Streckenbach attempted to reason with him about it, and Streckenbach received their protests sympathetically and agreed it was a very difficult order but said that his hands were tied and couldn't do anything about it. Arriving at that stage, why couldn't all the officers, including Streckenbach, then go to the next higher level, the next higher exhelon, and again in a very friendly and rationalizing manner, point out that this order was impossible of fulfillment? Why couldn't that have been done? the fuehrerorder had been given and it could not be evaded and absolutely had to be obeyed, I assume that these higher officers who knew the situation much better and who firmly believed that in fact it was a fuehrerorder, they therefore refrained from making representations to the chief of the security police.
at all, they merely objected to Streckenbach, that is right, isn't it?
PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed, Dr. Hoffmann.
BY DR. HOFFMANN: did you have the impression that these officers who protested were afraid of going to Heydrich?
A I don't think so at all, because I am convinced that Streckenbach or the other officers who objected could have found a way of going to Heydrich, but obviously in view of the situation they were convinced that Heydrich would only confirm this order again and nothing else. BY THE PRESIDENT: Wouldn't their consciences be relieved somewhat if at least they would have made the attempt and not left it to conjecture as to what Heydrich would say? to Dueben and there he inspected the units which were about to advance. I am convinced that in this connection, too, the officers, the higher officers, who had reported to the chief of the security police talked to him and debated this question again, but could not come to another result; but in my own sphere I did not hear anything about it, and it was only confirmed to me again that this fuehrerorder was to be carried out.
PRESIDENT: Dr. Hoffmann, that answer is not very clear to me, is it clear to you?
DR. HOFFMANN: No, but I will ask him something about this. BY DR. HOFFMANN: general opinion perhaps that Hitler as well as Himmler and also Heydrich basically would never revoke a once given order, only because of requests and objections made by normal human beings?
A I think so. I think one was quite convinced of this. BY THE PRESIDENT: