Q. You have been doing this yourself, starting on page 71, is that right?
A. I don't know the number exactly.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal that at no other time has anybody tampered with this "aufnahmebuck" - this photograph book?
A. I don't think so. I didn't change anything at all. It is entered by seminal number and by the orders.
MR. HOCHWALD: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Let the Tribunal see those two documents, please. On what page did that entry appear?
MR. HOCHWALD: I don't know. It is on the second page, sir, I shall find it.
THE WITNESS: Number 391.
THE PRESIDENT: And where is the item. Is it this one here with the "x"?
MR. HOCHWALD: Yes, with the "X".
THE PRESIDENT: Will some one who can decipher this book please come to the bench and help the Tribunal. Perhaps both counsels, please, just come up here. (Discussion ensued before the bench with Mr. Hochwald and Dr. Riediger Present.)
Q. Did you take any pictures after the bombing?
A. I don't understand the question.
Q. Did you do any work after the place had been bombed?
A. For at least three to five months I interrupted my work and then started again.
Q. When did you start again?
A. It happened on the first of March. About November I started working again, about September, October or November.
Q And did you keep records of those pictures also?
A. Only these block lists.
Q. Now please answer the question. Did you also keep records of those pictures which you took after September 1943?
A. Yes.
Q. And where are the records of those pictures?
A. I have them in Berlin. I only took this book along because this order was in it.
Q. Yes. You started a new book when you resumed your work in September 1943?
A. No, I didn't start a new book but I continued to keep these blocks.
Q. I don't understand what you mean by blocks. I presume you mean, books?
A. No, it is merely a small pad, which can be part of business papers. It is so called "daypads"
Q. Well, let's understand it. That each day that you took a picture, a record was kept in this book, is that right, or a large book?
A. Yes, in this book.
Q. yes, very well. Now on March 1st your place was bombed?
A. Yes.
Q. In September, or perhaps, October 1943, you resumed your business?
A. Yes.
Q. And you continues to keep records of the pictures which you made?
A. Yes, but only on this pad, these so called "daypads", not in a big pad.
Q. Why did you not continue the work of keeping records in this large book when you resumed your business in September or October 1943?
A. Because its continuance was so much work, and it was not needed for the purpose of tax estimate.
Q. Well, why was it necessary before March 1, 1943?
A. It was not necessary. I only kept it for the sake of order.
Q. Well, what caused you to abandon this sense of order after September 1943?
A. Because I was alone then, and it amounted to too much work for me which I could not do.
Q. How much work was necessary to work after each picture was taken, which consisted of one line, giving the date, the number and the name of the person . How much work was required to do that? How much time was required?
A. In this it only took half an hour but -
Q. About half an hour to write this one line in a book?
A. Not one line, for the days work, but for the days work.
Q. What happened to the assistant that you had in February 1943?
A. After the bombing attack she did not return to work because she married.
Q. Well, do they stop work when they marry?
A. In this case, yes.
Q. All right. Now you would take eight to ten pictures every day, is that right, on the average?
A. Yes, sometimes more.
Q. All right.
A. I cannot say exactly.
Q. Well, the average was eight to ten?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So it meant writing eight to ten lines in your book at night?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you so busy during the war that you didn't have time to write eight to ten lines at night?
A. Yes, I kept my household, my business, and took all the pictures by myself.
Q. But you didn't have time to write these eight to ten lines at night?
A. No, because it was not absolutely necessary and I omitted.
Q. Then it was not necessary to keep this book prior to March 1, 1943, either was it?
A. That is true, but I had started it and I wanted to continue it, if I had the time. However, I can do that now, even now, because if my business records are in my office I can do that, even now, to write and fill in the book, even now.
Q. I don't understand it, you can fill in the book now. I don't understand what you mean by that?
A. Of course, I would take an assistant to do that.
Q. Well, we are at least in the same room together. We certainly are not in the same thought together. I asked you why you didn't keep this book after March 1, 1943 and you answered that it wasn't necessary. Now, you tell me that you can, if you want to, keep such a book. If you would keep such a book you would believe it would be necessary, wouldn't you?
A. For me personally later an. but it won't be used for tax purposes.
Q. Did you fail to keep books because you wanted to avoid the payment of taxes?
A. Oh, no. Tax is kept in a very proper and orderly way. That was not the reason. - I see from this case that it is perhaps necessary to keep a book like that. There might be other cases which are important, so it is perhaps good to have a book like that.
Q. When did you start to keep this book?
A. When I began?
Q. Yes.
A. I think 1 November 1941.
Q. Yes, so you kept this book all throught 1941,1942, and two months of 1943. That is 26 months. and then suddenly you abandoned this very orderly way or keeping your records, is that right?
A. I beg your pardon? After the bombing attack -
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, please, I want to find out just what those items indicate. This is the date, this is the number, this is the name. What is this? Is that the address?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. and what is this?
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: It seems to be the number of the picture.
THE PRESIDENT: And what is that?
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: Cards.
THE PRESIDENT: The size, What is that?
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: Price.
THE PRESIDENT: Price.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: The day which the price was paid.
THE PRESIDENT: The price was paid?
Q. (By the President): write the date the picture was taken, the number of the order, the person whose picture was taken, his address, the number of pictures ordered, the price, and the amount paid, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now after September 1943, did you not keep that kind of record in order to know just what you were doing in your business?
A. Oh yes, the pad shows it exactly.
Q. Where are these pads after September 1943?
A. I have all of them; they are all being kept.
DR. RIEDIGER: Your Honor, the witness means to say that this pad is one of the pad which concerns Haensch, and Haensch is on the pad which is in front of you.
THE PRESIDENT: Please indicate the page.
THE WITNESS: 391.
Q. (By the President) so that in February, 1942, you were keeping a double record, the large book and the block pad?
A. Yes.
Q. And after September 1943---
A. I only had the pads because the book was superfluous.
Q. You didn't think it was superfluous prior to March 1, 1943 did you?
A. When I began the business in Zehlendorf I started the book, and afterwards I realized that it was just double work, because the pads shows everything, what the tax needed from me.
Q. Where are the pages that you tore out of this book from 1 to 70?
A. They do not concern this matter, but I gave ballet instructions, as I said, and the names of my pupils were in these pages, which are not concerned in this matter.
Q. I asked you, where are the pages which you tore out of this book?
A. I probably destroyed them.
Q. Well wasn't it just as important to know the people that you taught dancing as the people you made pictures of?
A. The matter lost its interest because it was from 1913 until 1915.
Q. 1913 to 1915?
A. Yes.
Q. you were giving lessons then?
A. Yes.
Q. I perhaps may be very indiscreet, but how old were you then?
A. Nineteen. I was going on twenty. I was born in 1892.
Q. What was this book doing between 1915 and 1941?
A. It must have been kept in some closet or other.
Q. So that for twenty-six years this lonely book did nothing?
A. Yes.
Q. Then suddendly you decided to put it to use to keep records of the picture which were taken?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes, now, what caused you to keep this book after March 1, 1943, and not keep the record of the people you had taught dancing?
A. Because it had lost all interest to me.
Q. Well, what interest did this book have to you; what enter tainment and joy did you derive from turning the pages of this book which caused you to keep it through all the war years after March 1, 1943?
What was it that endeared this to your heart to such an extent that you kept it during those troublesome times?
A. It had no special reason. I kept all my things for a long time, and since there were no books to be bought afterwards, I looked up this book, cut out the pages, and used the rest for my business purposes.
Q. I don't quite understand what you mean. You cut out the pages and used the rest for your business purposes?
A. Yes.
Q. You mean you cut out the unused pages and used them for other purposes?
A. No.
Q. Well, it isn't clear just what you mean by: you cut the pages out and used them.
A. No I took the pages which had been written on and destroyed them and used the rest of the book for my business because no new books could be bought.
Q. All right. Since you are such a thrifty person, why is it that you allowed all these blank pages to go unused, from page 138 to - 349? How is it that you didn't use all this good blank paper with paper probably so expensive?
A. Because I intended to keep the book for myself personally but I didn't have the time to do that.
Q. You intended to keep the book personally, but you didn't have time to do what?
A. To enter all these addresses of the customers.
Q. You did intend to enter the addressed of the customers?
A. Yes, I had this intention, but I lacked the time to do so.
Q. Well, you had six to eight customers a day, eight to ten customers a day, and you want the Tribunal to believe that because of this volume of business you were unable to keep a book which you desired to keep?
A. I already testified that I kept my household, did all my work alone and my business.
Q. Where is the woman who made this record?
A. She lives in Berlin in Zehlendorf.
Q. What is her name?
A. Frau Friedel Reich.
Q. Spell it please.
A.R-e-i-c-h.
Q. What is her address?
A. Zehlendorf, Teltower Damm 44.
Q. I don't know whether the reporters are able to get that or not. Perhaps you had better spell it.
A. The name, R-e-i-c-h.
Q. What is her first name?
A. Friedel. Spell that.
Q. Spell that.
A.F-r-i-e-d-e-l.
Q. All right, give us the street address.
A. Toltower Damm.
Q. I didn't catch it.
A. Teltower Damm, T-e-l-t-o-w-e-r D-a-m-m, 44.
Q. What section of Berlin?
A. Berlin-Zehlendorf.
Q. When did you see this woman last?
A. I only met her superficially somewhere on the stree in Berlin.
Q. When did you see her last?
A. Perhaps four weeks ago; four to six weeks ago.
Q. Four to six weeks ago? Did you talk to her about this trial?
A. No.
Q. When did you first learn that you had to come to Nurnberg to testify in this case?
A. The beginning of November. I don't remember the exact day. I was supposed to appear here on the 10th of November, but I became ill.
Q. November of this year?
A. November of this year.
Q. so when you saw this woman you didn't know that you were going to testify?
A. I don't think so, and I would not have talked about it either.
Q. Why wouldn't you have talked about it?
A. I had no occasion to do that.
Q. But you are submitting a document here which is not made up by yourself. Why wouldn't you want to talk with the person who made up the document?
A. I had no thought of it, and I don't think that it was during that time that I met her. It must have been sometime before this, before I received the telegram.
Q. So the last time you saw her was four to six weeks ago, and it was prior to the time that you received the telegram to come to Nurnberg?
A. Yes, I didn't talk with her we simply passed one another.
Q. When did Mrs. Haensch speak to you for the first time about this case?
I cannot tell exactly, but it must have been in October, the end of October. was an inquiry about Haensch's picture, didn't you?
A No, I don't think so.
Q Mrs. Haensch spoke to you employee and then your employee spoke to you, is that right?
Q And that was in October?
A Yes, end of October/
Q End of October, and what did the employee tell you? photostatic copy of the business books for this trial.
Q And then you looked it up in the book?
Q And you got out the negative?
Q Then you remembered that you had taken that picture yourself?
Q And then when did Mrs. Haensch talk to you personally?
A She did not talk to me at all. I did not see her again.
Q You never saw Mrs. Haensch?
A I don't think I know her at all. At least I don't remember her. I don't know who was sent with the picture. She didn't come to my place at all.
Q Then you saw the positive of this picture a month or so ago?
Q Did someone bring to your office a picture of Haensch?
Q Then all you did was to look up the negative?
Q You never saw the positive; that is until recently?
Q All right. Now were the pictures delivered back in 1942, did Mrs. Haensch come for them herself?
Q Who paid for the pictures?
A I don't know. I did not accept the money myself. It my have come by mail. I don't remember exactly. you?
A The one that works for me now? Three years, but only for my household and for reception.
Q Why couldn't this employee have kept the book that you previous employee kept?
Q then you don't have to devote all your time to household working do you?
Q Well, you didn't three years ago. couldn't you? often. I had two operations behind me.
Q You didn't tell us that when we asked you. You said you were just too busy with your household work.
A Of course I had. The employee can't take off all the work I have to do.
Q Doesn't this employee do your household work?
Q What do you keep her for?
Q You have two rooms, is that right?
order? fact th t you have someone to assist you in the household work, that you cannot devote a few minutes at the end of the day to keeping a record of the business of that day, is that right? for that reason I let it go.
Q Well then, it wasn't because you didn't have time? and consequently I couldn't work so much in the household, and I took in this assistant because I was often sick.
Q Who did your professional work when you were sick? was closed. 1943?
Q Yes, except the dancing records. You don't have those?
Q Very well. Now, Mrs. Haensch came to your office, came to your place of business, and informed your employee that she would like to have the records? negative. When was the next time you heard about this case, after that?
A Dr. Riediger visited me in Berlin.
Q And when was that?
A I don't remember the exact date.
A The first days of November perhaps, I can't say exactly. It might have been at the end of October.
Q Did you show him the negative?
Q Did you ever see Mrs. Haensch in your life?
A No, I can't remember ever having seen her.
Q You say you brought this negative along with you? header and one without.
Q What kind of a uniform?
A I don't remember the color. I don't know; I didn't ask him for it.
Q You didn't ask him for it? What about your eyes? Didn't you see the color?
A I don't remember the color.
Q What kind of shoulder straps did it have?
Q What kind of shoulder straps did the uniform have?
A That I don't know. these pictures very well, and not only that, you have had an opportunity to look at the negative since. Now, you can't tell us what shoulder straps the subject were?
Q You don't have any memory for clothes? a good memory for clothes.
A Perhaps for women's clothes, but not for men's lapels, etc.?
A I couldn't describe it exactly.
Q Can you give us any idea? sure.
Q When did you see the negative last?
A Before a left for Nurnberg. I can put it at you disposal. It is in my room in Nurnberg.
Q And you hadn't seen Haensch since February, 1942? negative? myself. There was no one in my business who might have taken the picture. I was the only one there, the only one who took pictures. made quite a point of it, that you took the picture yourself. When you say that you took the picture yourself, it naturally suggests that someone else could have taken it, and you said that you remembered it very well because you have a photographic memory. Are you changing that testimony now?
A No, I don't want to change that, but--is because you are the only one who could have taken it, is that right?
A No one else. I had no assistant who could have taken the picture.
Q so it wasn't because you recognized the picture that you say that you knew that you took the picture ?
A No. I do remember the type of picture.
Q Do you remember the face?
Q Now you remember the time. What time of the day was it in the forenoon?
A I can't tell you that exactly. I can't say that exactly. 1942?
Q What day of the week was it?
A I don't know that? Do you remember the face ? You haven't answered that question yet.
Q You remembered having seen that person before your lens?
Q Do you remember everyone whose picture you took? you took?
THE PRESIDENT: During the noon recess the witness will be accompanied by a guard to her personal quarters in Nurnberg so that the negative which she has with her may be obtained and brought to the Tribunal when it reconvenes.
Mr. Hochwald?
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: May I respectfully request the Tribunal also to rule that the witness is not supposed to look at this negative?
THE PRESIDENT: The guard will accompany the witness and she will hand the negative to the guard without looking at it, and the Secretary-general is instructed to do whatever is required to have brought to Nurnberg the witness, Frau Friedel Reich. And the present witness is instructed, under no circumstances must she speak with Frau Friedel Reich.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: Thank you very much, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 345 hours, 3 December 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr. Walton.
MR. WALTON: Walton for the defense counsel Dr. Meyer for the defendant Braune. In the absence of Dr. Meyer it has come to the attention of the prosecution that tomorrow Dr. Braune's wife arrives in Nurnberg and the purpose of her visit is that she has just suffered a loss through death of her father and she wishes to speak with her husband on certain family matters. had not been in the actual custody of the Court. Therefore, we request this Tribunal, if it is agreeable with the Tribunal, to instruct the Marshal to permit Mrs. Braune to see her husband tomorrow afternoon contingent upon his excuse from attendance on these proceedings.
THE PRESIDENT: Acting defense counsel Walton, we are pleased to accede to your request and we will be grateful if you will make the necessary arrangements so that the interview between Mrs. Braune and the defendant Braune may take place.
MR. WALTON: Then I have permission of the Tribunal to instruct the prison officer?
THE PRESIDENT: You do have the permission.
MR. WALTON: In the name of the Tribunal?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you may do it in the name of the Tribunal. Mr. Walton, will this be during Court hours?
MR. WALTON: Yes sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and so that then the record will be complete the Tribunal will excuse the defendant during that period when he will be conferri with his wife. BY THE PRESIDENT:
so far as dancing lessons were concerned?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened to this book between 1915 and 1941?
A. It will have been kept in some cupboard.
Q. Did you always live at the same place between 1915 and 1941?
A. No, I lived in different apartments.
Q. How many apartments?
A. I will have to think it over for some time. I moved several times, five or six times, I think.
Q. And each time you moved you took with you the record of these dancing pupils for which you had no use; is that right?
A. Yes, I took all my things along. Among them was this book.
Q. Now, after 1943 you had no further use for this book, did you?
A. No.
Q. Why did you continue to keep it?
A. I kept all my things and this book was among my things.
Q. Well, why did you not keep then the record of the dancing students?
A. when I used this book for the business I took the first few pages out in order to have a new book for the business, because I was not able to buy one.
Q. Well, how would it affect the keeping of the record of the photographs taken if you kept in the same book these other pages with the names of your dancing students?
A. It would not have quite fitted, in my opinion. That's why I took it out. I didn't think about it any further. I wanted to start the book new.
Q. When Dr. Haensch entered your studio on February 21, 1942, as you have testified, was he wearing his glasses?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Did he wear glasses at all during this period?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well now, you remembered what he looked like. Why wouldn't you remember whether he was wearing glasses or not?
A. When the picture was taken he did not wear glasses.
Q. Well, of course, that could have been verified by simply looking at the negative, but we want to know whether he was wearing glasses when he came into the studio?
A. I cannot say that now anymore.
Q. So that you didn't remember his face well enough independently of refreshing your memory from the negative as to just what he looked like?
A. No, I only refreshed my memory when I saw the negative.
Q. So that you really cannot remember the faces of the hundreds whose pictures you have taken independently of the negatives and the pictures?
A. No. If I was asked how the person concerned looked, it would have to be an exceptional face for me to remember it exactly.
Q. You wouldn't remember the face unless there was something extraordinarily unusual about it?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, what do you find so unusual about Dr. Haensch's face that you remembered his?
A. I said already that I only remembered it when I looked at the negative again.