received and which he was putting into effect?
A No. He merely pointed out to me, in the general conversation, the general orders and decrees from the Army High command -he was called upon to execute?
A Your Honor, I misunderstood you then. We did not talk about the detailed orders, about each individual decree by the Army High Command, but we merely discussed the general affairs. He told me in broad outline that certain decrees and orders from the Army existed for the civilian population which had been publicly announced, and these orders were in the hands of the Chief of the Executive Department. upon to put into effect, didn't he? of the commando from the time when I took over the commando.
Q Now, you please answer the question? It is not a difficult question, and I don't see why you won't answer it. I merely ask you, did you talk with your predecessor Braune, had been executing prior to your arrival? to turn over to you to put into effect? A Braune did not have to turn over orders or decrees to me, and he did not do it in fact. He merely told me and showed me how the front area was and the present situation in the front area, and apart from that he introduced me immediately in the Army High Command and with the liaison officer who was appointed for this. The situation I saw was this, that - -
Q. Just a moment now, did he not say to you, "Now, Haensch, I am turning over the Kommando to you. I have been here so long and this is what we have done. I have here certain orders and I turn then over to you to put into effect." Did he say anything like that?
A. No, your Honor, not in that form.
Q. Now, tell me ....... but very briefly, briefly please, just what he told you to do? Keep in mind, here is a man who is in charge of an organization an he turns it over to his successor who has just arrived.
Now, what did he tell you, briefly?
A. Braune told me that the front area had to be guarded and the Kommando had to look after this, in particular to guard it against partisans and newly infiltrating elements who constantly increased in the front area and were enclosed there, .........
Q. All right. Now, that's one item, to cover the front line area and to guard against elements infiltrating through, one, all right. Two, what's the next thing he told you to do?
A. That was the Mission of the Kommando. He emphasized particularly that it was the word of the Kommando and was running according to schedule.......I could rely on the executive officials and beyond that, I should and could turn to the liaison officers of the Army who had been in good relations with him and his predecessor, and of whom.......
Q. He did not mention Jews at all?
A. No.
Q. Did the word "Jew" ever fall from his lips in his conversations with you?
A. Your Honor, I don't know now but I can't imagine, the idea of measures against Jews.
.....
Q. Now, just a moment please, witness. Witness, now you must answer questions, not make a speech each time something is directed to you. Did the word "Jew" ever fall from the lips of Werner Braune when he discussed with you what were your duties as his successor?
A. I don't know, your Honor. I cannot remember, that.......
Q. Did it or did it not?
A. No. I can't remember.
Q. No. All right. Did the word "Jew" issue from the lips of Streckenbach when he instructed you as to what you were to do in Russia?
A. No.
Q. Did Heydrich ever mention the word "Jew' to you in his conversation with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Well, I am just thinking that it was mentioned during discussions which I had. for example.....
Q. Not for example. I want to know who mentioned the word "Jew" to you.
A. I could name Thomas himself. When Thomas came on an inspection visit.
Q. All right.
A. When Thomas came on an inspection.
Q. Yes, and what did Thomas way about Jews?
A. When Thomas came on an inspection visit he asked.
You see, whether in the territory any Jewish craftsmen existed, any Jewish workers......as there was a great lack of craftsmen in the Ukraine altogether and in the Ukrainian territory the Jews mostly did the skilled labor.
Q. And what did Thomas ask about the Jews? Did he ask you to get some Jewish workers for him
A. This was not necessary, your Honor, because he did not know that in our territory, that in the territory under the Kommando such Jewish craftsmen did not exist.
Q. Well, he mentioned Jewish skilled labor. Did he ask you to get some for him, or did he tell you that there was a great lack of them? In what connection did he talk about this Jewish skilled labor?
A. That is what I wanted to mention before. In this connection he said craftsmen were urgently required for workers essential for the war and in Dnepopetrovsk large workshops were being set up for which craftsmen were particularly required and who were to be used there to do work essential for the war, in particular tailors.....
Q. But now please restrict it to the Jews. Please don't ramble all over the place. What did he say that he were to be assigned to these jobs.
Q. Yes. Then he asked you to gather whatever Jewish craftsmen you could and send them to these plants; is that what he told you?
A. Yes, your Honor, but this not only concerned Jewish craftsmen but it was like this......
Q. Now, just a moment. Did he tell you, "I want you to get some Jewish craftsmen or as many craftsmen as you can, but where they are Jews you are not to liquidate them, in spite of the fact that there is a Fuehrer order out, the Jews are to be liquidated."
Did he tell you that?
A. Your Honor, liquidation of Jews was never mentioned at all, and I cannot say anything else. I already said this to Mr. Wartenberg, that for the first time I heard about this fact Here and may I add one thing now? The following happened during my time in the territory of SK4B. I know that quite a number of Jews, and as far as I remember there must have been more than a hundred, were used as panje drivers for the Army. From the rear Army territory, or at least from the rear, they brought up new vehicles to the front, that must have been in April or May.....
Q. All right. That's enough. You told us that you know that a hundred Jews were use as drivers for the Army. It isn't necessary to go into so much detail. Proceed, Dr. Riediger.
Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Witness, the Tribunal just asked you whether, in the time from February until June or July, when you were with SK4B, Jews were ever mentioned. I would like to clarify during what time you were with SK4B?
A. Formally I was Kommando leader from the middle of March until the middle of June approximately. I was physically there, except for the time for about three weeks when I was on an official trip to which I had been ordered to Berlin and Prague. The days in Berlin before were considered furlough and also another two weeks previously on the occasion of an official trip to which I had been ordered to Kiev.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Riediger, if you are going to give us the periods, have him give the dates, he arrived March 15, went to Prague.
Let us have it specific, if you are going to go into that, because if he just gives it generally we have no better picture than what existed before.
Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Dr. Haensch, when did you arrive at the Kommando?
A. As I said, at the earliest in the middle of March, on 15 March, at the earliest.
Q. And when were you ordered to go back?
A. Middle of June.
Q. During that time, from 15 March until the middle of June, were you constantly with the Kommando?
A. No.
Q. During what time were you absent from the Kommando?
A. I was absent from the Kommando for about two weeks in April. I cannot say now. I do not know the exact date anymore. I don't know it anymore; that was on the occasion of the official trip to Kiev.
Q. And you say for two weeks?
A. Yes, about fourteen days.
Q. During which time were you in Berlin and Prague?
A. In Berlin and Prague......I left for Berlin and Prague either in the last days of April or in the first days of May 1942.
Q. And how long were you absent?
A. And then about the end of May, about 20 to 25, it must have been about then that I returned.
Q. Who was in charge of the Kommando while you were absent?
A. During my absence automatically the chief of the executive department was in charge of the Kommando, who also automatically continued to be in charge of the Kommando when I finally left in the middle of June for Berlin.
A special kommando leader was not appointed at the time, at least not as far as I know, and I did not hand my kommando over to any kommando leader.
Q. Witness, the prosecution charges you that during your time the following executions took place. They are, in document book l, pages 36 and 87 of the English, page 118 of the German, exhibit number 22, No-3340, report of events of 25 February 1942. I quote: "Sonderkommando 4 b, in the time from 14 January unitl 12 February 1942, 861 people were shot after court martial. Of these, 649 were political functionaries, 52 were saboteurs and partisans, and 139 were Jews."
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, people. The translation came through as court martial. In our document book the phrase appears as summary court. Would you please check on that, Miss Interpreter?
THE INTERPRETER: Summary courts is right.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. The correction is made.
DR. RIEDIGER: I want to correct myself, The translation is summary courts.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the record will show that correction.
Q. (By Dr. Riedeger cont'd) Also, in document book 2 C, page 60 of the English, page 65 of the German, exhibit number 80, No-3240, I quote: "Sonderkommando 4 b executed 317 persons, among them 63 political activists, 30 saboteurs, and partisans and 1224 Jews."
THE PRESIDENT: I think there is another slight slip. It is 1317 instead of 317.
DR. RIEDIGER: Yes, 1317.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we blame that on the lawyer and not the interpreter?
DR. RIEDIGER: Please blame it on me, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Fine, I am gland that it is you this time.
Q. (By Dr. Riedeger cont'd) "By these measures the City of Artemowsk was freed of Jews." Witness, did you have anything to do with these executions during the time when you were in charge of the Kommando?
A. No, I had nothing to do with executions. The period of time shows this, As that time I wasn't in Russia yet, and I heard about these executions here for the first time. But may I draw your attention to the following: What I saw here in a document, this same report of 6 March 1942, is already contained and appears already in a report of events, or rather in an activity and situation report, number 9, dated 27 February 1942. That is document number 3876-PS in document book 3-A.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, when you arrived to take over the command of 4 b did you study the reports which had been submitted on the activities of that Kommando in the immediate past?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, no reports existed and no reports of events either. It was prohibited. There was an order that my written records should not be kept because of the nearness of the front, but these reports of events, during my time at least, and I think it was like this in general, were not sent to the Kommando from Einsatzgruppe C.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, but each Kommando sent in reports, did it not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You made up reports yourself, didn't you?
THE WITNESS: One report, a so-called situation report, was made when I was there, just one situation report was made. I remember that.
THE PRESIDENT: And you didn't find any reports at headquarters when you reported?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor. It was like this, that of this situation report which I mentioned no copies were kept and were not allowed to be kept.
Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Witness, you said that you had nothing to do with these executions which mention such large figures of people. Did any executions to that extent take please at all or any executions of Jews?
A. Executions of Jews or such mass executions I never witnessed and I did not get to know of them.
Q. During your time were Jews or Gypsies killed merely because they were Jews or because they were Gypsies?
A. No, and I would like to mention here expressly that this question neither in thought nor in words was ever discussed.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do you doubt today that this situation report, number 177, dated 6 March, is correct?
THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, after seeing these reports and after knowing them I have no reason to assume any longer that this did not happen.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Now, assuming that you were not there when this happened and it would have had to happen prior to March 4, and you didn't arrive until March 15, and 1224 Jews had been shot within a month preceding your arrival, don't you think that some time or another something would have been said about the execution of these Jews by the very men that you had now taken over in your command?
THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you not see anything unnatural about silence on a matter of this enormity al though you were with the men from two to three months? You see nothing unnatural about that?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I would like to assure the Tribunal that I thought about it seriously ever since my interrogation in order to find an explanation for the fact that these events occurred during that time as can be seen from the reports. I came to the folllwing conclusion came to my mind. I personally do not believe that these executions should have occurred such a short time previously. I don't think so because of what I have seen in these documents. Here is mentioned that every thing was quiet on the front, may I see the document?
THE PRESIDENT: You are talking about the operation report 177 which shows that 1224 Jews were shot some time COURT II CASE IX March of '42 or a few days before?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, my only question is that, and please do not give so extended an answer. You have now stated that you have no reason to doubt the correctness of these reports. Therefore, if 1224 Jews were shot by your organization before you took over, does it not seem strange to you that in all the time that you were with the very men who conducted these executions, that not a word was ever said about so extraordinary a phenomenon as the execution of 1224 human beings because they were Jews?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can only say, I did not know anything or hear anything about this at the time. In particular I did not know the Fuehrer order until the moment here in Nurnberg.
THE PRESIDENT: No please, listen witness. The trouble is that either you pay no attention to the question or you listen to the question and then you figure out in your brain how you can answer everything in the would but the question put to you. You give yourself a lot of mental exercise, but you give us very little information. If you don't understand the question just say, "I am sorry, I don't understand the question." third time I am putting it. You admit the correctness of the reports. If you admit the correctness of the reports then you must admit that some time before March 4, 1224 Jews were shot by your Kommando. You were not there. Now, I only ask you, does it not seem strange to you that although these very men that you were now commanding had just a short time before, killed 1224 people because they were Jews, that nothing was ever said about it? Does that not seem strange COURT II CASE IX to you?
THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, nothing was mentioned and nothing was said about it.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all, thank you. Proceed, Dr. Riediger, with your next question. I see we can never get together on these things.
BY DR. RIEDIGER: did any executions take place?
Q Can you remember how many executions took place during your time?
A Yes. I personally know of four executions. were the victims of these killings?
A Yes. One execution occurred in April, that is to say my main commando in Gorlowka. This execution, like any other executions, included the smallest group of persons as far as I remember. There were about 25 people to be executed. Also in April by the subcommando in the area of Artemowsk an execution tool place during which also a group of saboteurs had to be executed. These were approximately - I don't know the exact figure - approximately 15 to 20 people. A third execution took place in the end of May, again in my commando, the main commando in the area of Gorlowka, and this concerned six or seven persons. I know exactly that these were fewer than ten. As far as I remember, there were six or seven. And the fourth execution occurred also at the end of May or beginning of June. It was carried out by a subcommando which had been newly formed when the Russian attempt of invasion near Kramatorskaya had been cleared there carried it out. It was a group of about ten persons whose case was not decided by the subcommando, but these persons were sent to the subcommando by the army with the order to carry out the execution. the army sent people to SK 4B to be executed?
A No. This case near Barvenkova and which I witnessed there at the time, occasioned me to discuss the order with the army immediately, the competent office, pointing out to them that in my opinion that in such cases in which the army carried out the investigations and had made the decision, that then units of the army or the secret field police, that was the one concerned at the time, should also carry out the executions.
This was recognized too. necessary?
A I don't quite understand. to the army high command? the away were, of course, informed of it, that is, they knew about it already because while making investigations about individual cases, they also took a part. Apart from that, the army was informed of this, of course. there any women or children among them?
Q What was the cause for these executions? who had violated the war laws, and this had been proved unambiguously. These were saboteurs, obstructioners, looters and so forth. I can not say it exactly any more now, of course. arrested who were then executed?
A May I tell about the kind of activity of the commando? The commando guarded the security of the front area. Of course, its own limited forces, including the subcommandos, there were not even a hundred men, about 70 or 80 men, could not look after the complete security of the front area. Its activity consisted mainly of observation and through reports received from the civilian population, from army units or army offices, it checked these reports, followed up suspicious traces and, if necessary, made arrests.
First of all, searchings were made by officials. After that, if the arrest of persons was necessary, the persons arrested were kept in custody by the main commando or by the subcommandos and against these persons a very careful procedure of investigation was carried out. Proof had to be brought; witnesses were questioned. Of course, the accused person was heard - was heard repeatedly. About these investigations minutes and records were made. And these investigations and interrogations were carried out by the chief of the executive department, the information chief, and the interpreter, and also by the person in charge of the screening. BY THE PRESIDENT: the records, if necessary? first of all until the case was decided and then for sometime afterwards, but then they had to be destroyed according to the orders that no written material was to be kept. But partly they were -
Q How long would they be kept? here, some of them -these records kept? at first, and some of them -
Q Now, just a moment, how long were they kept? "A short while" means nothing, because it is a relative expression. "A short while" under certain circumstances could be five minutes, it could under other circumstances be five years. Now, how long were they kept? the t ime when the execution was carried out, there was a certain period of time.
During that period the records were kept.
Q Well, were they destroyed?
A Then after the execution had been carried out, they were destroyed: whether this was done immediately by the chief of the executive department or the executive officials -I don't know that any more now.
Q How soon after the execution were those papers destroyed? eight days. I am not quite sure. Instructions were given that they were to be destroyed then.
Q They were to be destroyed eight days after the execution?
A No. There was no instruction that they were to be destroyed eight days after the execution. anyone who wanted to know why the men were executed could look at the records and find out? Now, how long were these records kept? records of the cases be not kept after the case had been concluded, but that they were to be destroyed. I said before that they existed for some time yet, and that is what I was trying to explain before, It was like this.
Q Now, witness, don't make your answers so long. It is obvious that records are made in order that those who have the right to know as to what took place may examine them. And it is obvious that after an execution if one wanted to find out why the people were executed that it would be necessary to look at records, otherwise, people could just be killed indiscriminately and no one would know why they were killed. Now, that is the reason records are kept, and that is the reason I presume you kept your records, so they would be kept a reasonable period of time after the execution. Now, I want to know what was that period of time. final report which was made by those conduction the investigation and everything connected with it, after all, were those documents which were needed in order to come to a verdict by the commands leader.
Q Well now, won't you please answer the question, how long after the execution were these papers kept before they were destroyed? remember it.
Q No, no. You either have to tell us that they were kept a certain period of time or that you don't know. Now, don't try to think of something else to tell us, but answer that question. Now, how long were they kept? case had been concluded and they were destroyed, but I would like to add that it was like this that in most cases the records were sent to the secret field police of officers of the army who, if necessary, were interested in this concerning information in general. That is what I meant when I said "for a certain time these records were kept". but the order existed, as I said at the beginning to destroy them and they were destroyed - that is to say to be destroyed after the case had been concluded and the case had been concluded when the execution was carried out.
I cannot say any were now whether the executive department destroyed these documents the following day or one day or eight days after the execution, that is in such cases in which there was no more interest in these cases from an information point of view.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. KOESSL: Representing Dr. Aschenauer for the Defendant Ohlendorf. I would ask the Tribunal to excuse the Defendant Ohlendorf from attending the court tomorrow so that the Defendant Ohlendorf can finish his document books.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Ohlendorf will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow so that he may work with his counsel on his document book.
DR. RIEDIGER (Attorney for the Defendant Haensch): May I proceed?
THE PRESIDENT: please do.
Q. (By Dr. Riediger) Dr. Haensch, did you conclude your explanations and statements concerning the procedure of investigations, or did you want to add something? of investigations, or did your want to add something?
A. As far as I know, I have only explained the actual scarlites and the investigations carried out, but I have not come to the conclusion yet.
Q. How were the decisions made then?
A. The investigation executive officials who were all experts, confirmed guilt or innocence on the basis of their investigations, of the person concerned and they put this into a conclusive report, putting down all the details and suggested the sentence and the participants in this investigation, the leaders and the officials, then in a number of cases reported to the kommando leader, convened at his place, and then deliberated on the final conclusionThe Kommando leader then made the decision, and, in this case, it was myself who decided upon those cases, whether the suggestion was to be approved, whether it was to be amended, or whether any other elements had come up which made further investigation necessary.
Q. If the results justified the necessity of execution, how was the execution carried out?
A. The executions were carried out by shooting.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, was this procedure in effect review, decision, and so on?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it was carried out in the same way as it had been done before.
I carried it on in the same manner.
There was an existing regulation -
THE PRESIDENT: WHO told you about the manner of the procedure?
THE WITNESS: When I asked predecessor Braune, he told me briefly about the manner of procedures.
He said the investigation result is being reported and then leaders
THE PRESIDENT: Did he tell you about the procedure?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but -
THE PRESIDENT: That's all that was asked you. Did he involved executions where he had been the kommando leader?
THE WITNESS: He did not use those words, of course,
THE PRESIDENT: Now, you don't need to--Why must you tell us again now what the procedure is.
We know what the procedure is.
You have outlined it to us. All I ask is, all cases which came before his kommando?
THE WITNESS: No, that he did not tell me.
THE PRESIDENT: Did he say that he used that procedure?