THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. BERGOLD: How many executions did you witness?
Q Which territory was under the charge of Einsatzcommando VI? three-hundred kilometers long, that is, about 60,000 square kilometers. saw Thomas again?
Q What was the subject, the main subject of this meeting? tory around Kiev, which had become the most important part in the war against Russia, and the entire interest of Thomas was concentrated on this subject.
Q What was the result of the second discussion with Thomas?
A My second discussion with Dr. Thomas during the meeting was only brief. I described him my impression as I have described it before, that is, I told him what I had seen there, and told him that owi owing to my theological training, I could not have been expected to have to pass judgments and to have executions under my change. At the same time I explained to him that I was now convinced and determined, as I had already told him before, to apply immediately to be released from my duties, not only from Russia but also from the Security Police all together. Dr. Thomas listen to all of this very calmly and without a word of criticism he said that he would support my application, and that he would send a Sturmbannfuehrer to me who was to share the responsibility for the Einsatzcommando VI with me, and that he was to supervise the work of Department IV while I who had the same function for the Departments I to III, I was in charge of the entire Einsatzcommando, and from that I realized that he fully recognized my personal misgivings and I was very grateful to him for understanding me so well.
Q Please describe to us the tasks of Departments I to IV?
A The tasks of the individual departments were as fellows: Department I and II were joined in Russia, and, handled personnel and administrative questions; Department III was the information service dealing with the domestic spheres in the occupied, territory in which the Einsatzcommando was working; and, Department IV dealt with actual security tasks. statement that the decision of Dr. Thomas to send you a Sturmbahnfuehrer to help you, the purposes of this was to have this man handle the security tasks?
A Yes. Dr. Thomas intended to save me from actually touching these subjects.
Q Please tell me if Dr. Thomas was so obliging, could you have got a better job from him, which you would have liked better, which would have suited, you better? appointed no Chief of Einsatzcommando VI. This order could not be rescinded by Thomas or amended but this could only be done by Berlin. Bridging the tension, as Thomas did by giving me a Sturmbannfuehrer to assist me, seemed to me the only solution, owing to difficulties in my special position.
Q When did you return to Rostov from Kiev?
Q Did you travel back to Rostov on your own - by yourself? of the Civil Administration in Rostov, who was an SS and Police Leader, a general of the police who had been intended for that job, Paul Hennicke. He was about to make all the preparations for taking over his office, and, later on I met him quite frequently.
In fact, I spent a great deal of my time with him.
DR. BERGOLD: If the Tribunal will permit me to comment here; I wanted to bring this man. Paul Heinnecke, here as a witness, but unfortunately he was so seriously ill with diabetics that the prison administration told me that they could not guarantee for his life unless I released him immediately. Of course, for humane reasons I released the witness immediately, or else I would have introduced the witness here. That is just comment.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he can come later if you can obtain him. We will permit him to come in any time at all before the termination of the trial, and, then if his health still will not permit his attendance, then perhaps you can obtain an affidavit from him.
DR. BERGOLD: I have tried that already, but he was just before his coma, and you know people who suffer from diabetics are not able to make a very clear statement, and I don't went to give the Tribunal a statement of a man of whom I did not have the impression that his mind was quite clear.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you adjust yourself according to the circumstances, and if you can get any coherent statement from him, the Tribunal will be very happy to have it.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well. BY DR. BERGOLD: come to you?
AAt the end of October this Sturmbannfuehrer arrived. His name was Joachim Noshing. He was a lawyer, and his main job was SSleader, and until then he had been a deputy commander in Kiev. Apart from that he was a son of a Protestant eclesiastical counsel, had been brought up in a strict Protestant manner, and very interested in religion, these were conditions which assured that work would be conducted in a proper and clean manner.
the channels of commands were? staff, and four staff sub-commanders and four district officess, similar to the commander offices, namely, Rostov, Taganrog, Novotscherkaskh, and Schafhty. The staff consisted of the commandoleader, and the deputy, under them were the Chiefs I and II, Chief III an and Chief IV. The sub-division in the commando-leadership resulted in the fact that the Chiefs I and II and III were subordinate to me, and Nehring was in charge of Department IV. The sub-commandos or local offices were supervised by police officers who were Ober- or Hauptsturmfuehrer, and who did this on their authority. That is, they carried out the tasks of the commandos concerning the security of the Army territory for their sub-territory, and they were competent on their own to do this, and they were responsible for this themselves, concerning the passing of judgments, investigations and carrying out of executions. There is to be mentioned that the subcommando leader of Rost v and Chief IV in the staff was the same man. In this activity the sub-commando leaders were directed in an expert manner by the Chiefs I and II, III and IV, and supervised by me or Nehring.
Q Did you pass death sentences yourself?
A I never did that, I already said that I explained to Dr. Thomas that they could not expect me to do this kind, of thing; apart from that it was the task of the sub-commando leaders. In cases of doubt, it was up to Chief IV of the staff or of my deputy, Nehring, according to special instructions of Thomas.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, up to the point that you said that you didn't want to pass any death sentence yourself, because of your background and training we can understand it, but when you say that it was now up to a commando leader to pass a death sentence, we can not understand, it. Now, tell us whether commando leaders were permitted to pass death sentences?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, just a moment please. If you will try to answer the question, we will save a great deal of tine. I ask you now, if commando-leaders were authorized to pass death sentences? BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, we already discussed the fact that you don't give any order for an execution?
A No. And I didn't witness any executions.
Q Did your commando shoot any hostages?
TEE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, Dr. Bergold. A little while ago you said that he didn't witness any executions,
DR. BERGOLD: I didn't say that.
THE PRESIDENT: I am sorry, that is what we got - that is the way we got it. BY DR. BERGOLD: any reason?
A No, no hostages were shot by Einsatzcommando VI. Taking of hostages was generally up to the Army.
Q Did your commando carry out any mass-executions without a procedure? individual shootings nor mass executions were carried out.
Q Did your commando shoot Jews? procedure because of crimes, or participation in crimes according to a special order by the Army, who had done some kind of action for which death sentence had been announced, among those persons there night have been Jews sometimes. Apart from that no Jews were shot specifically.
Q You never did this just because they were Jews?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, witness, you say that no Jew was shot just because he was a Jew, or that Einsatzcommando VI didn't do that?
THE WITNESS: Never during my time.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: There was no reason for that.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, how many people in all were executed by your Commando for the reasons which you have given us, namely, they had committed a crime. How many executions in all, how many people in all were killed by Einsatzcomnando VI while you were there?
THE BERGOLD: Your Honor, before the defendant speaks I have a request. This question, how many people he executed....
THE PRESIDENT: No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that, I said, how many people were executed by his commando while he was in charge of that commando.
DR. BERGOLD: That is what I meant to say, Your Honor. I have a request that this particular question, which the President asked, may be answered in a different context; it is connected with his own affidavit where he refers to this figure, and, I, therefore, ask that the question of the President be not asked in this connection, but be grateful.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, certainly. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, in your territory were there any Jews at all?
A I never noticed any Jews. In Rostov there were a great number of Armenians whom I thought to be Jews at first. When I happened to see one in my office one day, I thought he was a Jew, this person told me in German, and I was very much surprised at this, he told me that he was not a Jew, but a Karain.
He was at the office in order to hand in a report about the Karains. He showed me a written report, about his tribe. I asked him to give me this leaflet he had, and after that he made a report to Berlin about the Karains in Russia. The man himself, of course, was not harmed. Then I remember that at the end of May, or the beginning of June, 1943, at the office in Taganrog I happened to hear something about the fact that Jews lived in Taganrog who were only registered, and according to this, if I think about it now, Jews might have been in that territory then, and that the circumstances didn't become obvious to me at the time, or I didn't notice it, must be owing to the fact that I had no reason at the time for this observation.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I now come to a different complex of questions, and I would like to ask if the Tribunal would like to have a recess now.
THE PRESIDENT: A good idea to have a recess now. The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. BY DR. BERGOLD: heard about the Fuehrer Order to kill Jews here in this trial. If you had known it in Russia at the time, would you have approved of it at all? question. No, I would not have approved of it and I cannot approve of it today in any form, since it does not only violate morality, but also an obviously divine law, just as the bombardment of Large cities by large fleets of airplanes or by atom bombs is disapproved by me as immoral and undivine. BY THE PRESIDENT: took place?
A No, may I say why?
Q No, that's enough. You said you disapprove of the bombardment of cities but you did not disapprove of the bombardment of London. All right, that is your opinion. why, why I once approved it and once disapproved of it.
Q Did you approve of it or not?
Q Then you do approve of the bombardment of cities in war? and I meant by this the bombardment of certain areas of a city and blanketing it with bombs, not the attack of military objectives or armament factories.
Q You said you did not approve of the bombardment of cities. Did you say that or did you not?
of London? to us expressly. with large fleets of planes. Now London is certainly a large city and it certainly was bombed by large fleets of planes. Now, do you approve of that or not?
Q Do you know that St. Paul's Cathedral was damaged in one of those raids?
Q You never heard of that?
A No, I don't recall. which I remember. BY DR. BERGOLD: have carried it out or not? it and I say, if my predecessor had given the order to me for my information, I would not have accepted it. As far as such an oral information was concerned, I would have never had people executed on such an oral passing on of an order. At least, this order would have had to be given to me expressly as an order by my superior, but even then I would not have carried it out. I would have pointed to my spiritual profession and thus I would have asked that no such order be given to me.
A That is correct. I was obligated to obey by oath, but obedience has a limit for no at that moment, when the order so obviously violates the will of God, as this killing order does. Thus, I was not obligated to obey all orders without any consideration. There are moments in our life, when, for a human being who really believes in God and who really knows that he is tied to God, the obedience towards the will of God is higher than obedience to an anti-divine order. order? What would you have done about these difficulties?
A. I already said that I would have pointed to my particular profession and that thus the acceptance and the carrying out of such an order could not he asked of me. I believe that after what I have experienced, namely, when I had the conference with Heydrich on the 5th of May, 1941, and during the conferences with Thomas, that in this case, one would have left me well enough alone, in other words, that one would have had consideration for me. If matters had been different, then, for a man who not only by name but really in his heart believes in God, there is only one thing left. He must obey God more than any human beings. I would have had to take the consequences.
Q. But you must explain one thing to us. Your comrades partly knew about the killing order and received it. How do you explain and can you explain it at all that you did not receive the extermination order?
A. Here in Nurnberg, I, of course, thought about this matter. I can only explain this matter as follows: In the area of Rostov and vicinity there were no Jews, outside of a few individuals, and therefore the passing on of this order to me was no longer necessary. It is not impossible that my profession, which Thomas had remembered, was the reason why he did not give me such an order, since the order had no importance in my area and since he knew that I wanted to leave anyway pretty soon. Furthermore, the order was secret and there was a general directive -- I think it was an express Fuehrer Order which had been laid down in written form -- that only so many people should know about secret matters as was absolutely necessary. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, do you think that a secret order becomes so secret that it isn't even transmitted to the person who is to execute the order?
A. I have already said that I had the impression that there were no Jews there.
Q. Well, that's the reason you give.
A. Yes, I gave that as the first reason.
Q. And another reason is that Thomas was very much concerned about your religious background. That's also a reason.
A. Yes, these are the possibilities and I do not know what caused Thomas to act the way he did. These are only the thoughts which I thought over here in Nurnberg.
Q. Didn't occur to you, while you are thinking about that subject, that, if Thomas was disinclined to pass on the order to execute Jews out of deference to your religious background that he also would have done something to relieve you of the duty of conducting any kind of an execution?
A. He did so by the fact that he sent me Sturmbannfuehrer Nehring.
Q. Well, would he not then have seen to it that you would not be required to witness an execution?
A. I attended them in order to get to know the activities of the kommando, as Thomas had ordered and then to report to him my impressions.
Q. Well, Thomas ordered you to witness an execution?
A. No, Thomas ordered me at that time in September to go to the kommando and then after inspecting matters, to report to him and tell him about my impressions.
Q. Then you witnessed an execution of your own free will?
A. Yes, because of the assignment which had been given to me.
Q. Well, did he order you to witness an execution?
A. No, not specifically, but if Dr. Thomas tells me that I should describe to him my impressions, that is, to give him a report about what I felt, then that includes my looking at things down to the last detail, even looking at an execution, for otherwise, my report would be wrong.
Q. Then did you make a report on the execution?
A. I told him about what I had seen, yes.
Q. And did you tell him how you felt?
A. Yes, I explained to him, as I have already said, that all these matters, the sentences and the executions, were against my feelings.
Q. You didn't know that before you witnessed the execution that you would have a feeling of revulsion against the execution. You didn't feel that before you actually witnessed the execution?
A. Of course not, Your Honor, for before I had never seen an execution.
Q. So you had to see an execution in order to know that it offended against your sentiments?
A. Yes, I had to see what kind of an effect this would have on me.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you've already told us that you only heard once about Jewish executions. That was in June, 1943, during your stay in Kiew in connection with crimes such as arson and explosions.
A. Yes, that is what was mentioned to me.
Q. Did you also hear about the executions of Jewish women and children?
A. No, at that time nothing was said about this and I heard nothing about it.
Q. What activity did you carry out in Rostov?
A. I already mentioned that the inspection of the work in the Offices 1, 2, and 3 had been given to me. My activity included the actual command of the kommando, especially to represent the kommando's interests to the other agencies, especially towards the German and Rumanian armies. I did not detail any liaison officer for this purpose, but I took care of this activity myself. Thus almost daily I had discussions with the G-2 of the Army area Don, especially when the military situation became very serious around Rostov. That is, when the withdrawals of the Army started. I also assisted the administration officer in the care and the supply questions of the kommando by negotiating with the military agencies. I also had connections with G-2 of the German Liaison Staff with the Rumanian Army in Rostov. I also was the disciplinary superior of all men in the kommando. As such, I was in charge of the personal files of the men, that is, recommendations and judging their type of service and taking care of their individual matters by conferring with them personally These jobs were the special duty of the kommando leader.
Q. Did you have anything to do in reference to administration?
A. Yes, of course. I was the only one who could sign papers. In addition, the kommando had two agricultural estates which had to be administered. One was a small estate with an orchard. It was to be a rest area for German combat troops in the Einsatzgruppe C and had to be arranged for that purpose. Since the Army wanted to use this place for its purposes also, there were often long negotiations with the various agencies. The other was an estate of 1,000 hectars with agriculture and live stock for whose upkeep and maintenance the kommando was responsible.
Q. Witness, did you have anything to do with the future civil administration of Rostov or its reorganization into a future civil administration?
A. Yes, as Dr. Thomas told me, and as the presence of the future SS and Police Leaders in Rostov showed.
Q. Please give the name.
A. Haencke. The taking over of this area by the civil administration was at hand. In order to have the necessary material for the civil administration about the various problems in that area, various extensive investigations and reports had to be made out. These extended to the presence of certain ethnic groups and to their political espectations, as, for example, in this area, the Russian-Germans, who were very small in number, but especially the Cossacks and then the Armenians and the Karaims. Furthermore, the investigations extended to the presence of cultural institutions, such as schools, universities, technical schools, libraries --
Q. That is sufficient.
A. And of grest interest was the presence of Russian scholars from the Pre-Bolchevist time. I had the opportunity to speak to such scholars of former European repute and to receive them in my office. Their condition impressed me deeply and to see to it that their old activity were again taken up under the German Army.
In this connection there was a Russian professor who already served for the Reichsfuehrer SS who had a special mission to excavate graves of the Goths from the time of the Eastern Gothic king Ermanerich, whose empire once extended down to the Volga River. He was with my kommando and received German supplies. One day before Christmas 20 trucks appeared at my agency in Rostov with the mission from the Reichsfuehrer to go to the Museum in Novotscherkask and transport it to Western Russia. Since this was the Don Cossack Museum, which was considered a sacred national symbol by the Don Cossaks, I sent a teletype to the Reichsfuehrer SS where I spoke of a positive cultural cooperation with the Don Cossacks and I asked that this be reconsidered. The instruction came down that the Museum was to remain in Novotscherkask. Then there were reports about the existence factories, about mines, food supplies, and about the ability to carry on with these factories, and also about hospital and medical facilities.
A. .......and then Prof. Brandt gave me the mission .....
Q. The details are not interesting, witness. This is sufficient. Just proceed.
A. -- Reports about agriculture, about institutions, about rubber plants, then the food situation among the civilian population; as an example I might give, that after a conference with me the Army decided not to forbid the black market in Rostov, since through it more food got into the city than if the German troops had attempted to bring food to Rostov on their vehicles. All these things I had to deal with, since the actual SD export of the kommando, that is, the Chief III was in close collaboration with the garrison headquarters and was occupied almost exclusively with the building of a theatre with Russian Forces for the troops and he was very successful in this.
Q. Witness, I would like to get one other thing. I interrupted you when you spoke about the mission of Professor Brandt and I gave the impression that I wanted to keep something away from the court. Please describe this matter briefly since this mission was completely harmless.
A. As far as the mission of Professor Brandt is concerned, the following is to be said here. Under the Russians here was an institute in Rostov for studying the plague. This institute had sub-departments down as far as the Kaukasus. It was in the interest of the health of the German Army to restors and resume the activity of this plague institute. Thus, I was given the mission to get all material about this plague institute, above all to find out Where these sub-departments were and to find out where the workers of these departments were and to win them over for this Work.
Q. This suffices. Witness, did you do anything for Paul Hennicke of the SS and Police Leaders who was to be appointed?
A. The leader Hennicke was not yet in service. Therefore he was there as a private citizen. I helped him in all matters in order to make him find his way into the work and into the life of this area, what work had already been done about this area, and I gave him the material for his own information.
Furthermore, he used me as a guide for all enterprises which were connected with installing his own office and he used me as an impartial witness during conferences which he had with Army generals when they visited him or when he visited them.
Q. This suffices.
A. May I add that, since we were pretty far apart in the city, he had his own telephone line.
Q. Witness, what general military situation did you find in Rostov?
A. I already said that the activity of the Einsatzkommando was restricted to the area of the Army Croup Don. This Army Croup consisted of a German Army under Field Marshal Paulus with the objective of Stalingrad and of Romanian Armies at both flanks. Through the flight of these Roumanian Armies a very serious situation arose, which has been designated by the name Stalingrad. The desparate struggle for this city threw its shadow on the Army Croup Don and also on the activity of the kommando. Rostov became more and more the next objective of the Red Army. Even during the struggle for Stalingrad small units of Red Army people advanced toward Rostov, As early as in December they tried in the north and in the south, by tank attacks to regain the city by sudden attacks. The military situation, especially after the fall of Stalingrad was very bad and very serious. At the time we counted on an all-out defense of Rostov.
Q. Witness, was there any reason that in your district proceedings had to be carried on to a large extent against members of the civilian population who had violated orders?
A. Whether this was the case, I do not know, but it is true that this desperate situation encouraged the illegal activity of all Bolschevists and therefore this made many proceedings necessary. Through the disorderly and undiscuplined flight of the Rumanian unrest and confusion arose everywhere in the Army area. Attacks, plundering, looting and rape were common, namely through the fleeing marauding Rumanians.
Therefore it was very easy for the underground agitators to win the population over for crimes against the German Army on whose account the Rumanian Army had come. Much more acute was the danger that the civilian population was taking possession of the arms which had been thrown away by the Rumanians. One could find guns which had been abandoned in hedges. The Rumanians even sold their arms for food and tobacco and liquor, not only to the German soldiers, but as has been proven to the Russian forces. Finally, this whole area around Rostov did not actually belong any more to the Ukraine, but here Asia became noticeable with its brutality and ruthlessness unimaginable to the Western mind.
German troops, wounded ones and prisoners found terrible examples of this, as they became eveident through the two-fold occupation of Rostov. Investigations of the Russian auxiliary police have shown innumerable cases, since the civilian population after the Russians recaptured Rostov in 1941 not only killed German prisoners of war but mistreated German wounded people who were being cared for in Russian or Rumanian homes and killed these together with those families in a most brutal manner.
One did not even leave the German soldier at rest after he was in his grave. One excavated German graves and tore apart the bodies and chopped them to pieces and threw them away. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, do you know this of your own personal knowledge?
A. I just wanted to say I read this expressly in the interrogation report which was submitted to me.
Q. When?
A. At the time when I was there. The case was investigated by the Kommando.
Q. Very well.
A. As an eye witness reported to me -- in another case the Russians dragged a German officer who had been captured to death. They hit him on the chin and chained him to a car which drove so long until the officer was dead. But the most terrible which I experienced was the following, that is, I heard it from eye-witnesses who saw it. It is well-known that the Russians buried prisoners up to the head so that they could not flee. When the Germans advanced toward Rostov a German soldier was found who had been buried up to his head. He was shouting with all his powers. They called back to him that help would come. He could not answer back, he could merely shout so that he was foaming at the mouth. They excavated him while he was shouting and raging. They found the following, the soldier had been covered by blankets. When the blankets were removed one found that a steel helmet had been tied to his body and under the helmet there was a living rat which had eaten its way into the body of the soldier.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. This case was also being investigated?
A. No. This was a report from eye witnesses---German eyewitnesses.
Q. I now come to your affidavit which is in Volume 1, that is, it is the fifth to the last, Document No. 4314, Exhibit 29, page 111 in the English. You speak in this affidavit of the fact that in your commando two or three thousand executions were carfied out. Can you recall that you said this, and is this number correct?
A. The figure which I give in my affidavit is meaningless since I cannot give such a figure to the best of my knowledge. It came to be given in the following manner. During an interrogation under oath at the camp Eselheide near Paderborn in the British Zone by an American interrogation officer I was requested by the interrogator to give the figure of those who were executed by the BK 6 during my time. Since I did not know it, and since I was not skillful at making an estimate, I told the interrogator that I could not even give him an estimate. The interrogator would not let go. Finally, he said it would not have to be so exact, a thousand more or less did not matter, thus he gave me the cue, and I said "Two to three thousand". That is how this number came to be put in the affidavit shich wasmade out at Eselheide. During my interrogation here at Nurnberg I had the same figure put in, even though I knew that this figure had just been given ny me arbitrarily. But since I saw that certain other statements were not exactly correct anyway, and since the interrogator, when I pointed this out to him, answered me that I would get an opportunity to make additional statements, I did not want to argue with him any more, but I wanted to correct this matter at the occasion which was promised to me. If I am now asked how high the figure of those executed by EK 6 during my time was, I can say truthfully that I do not know this figure.