Soviet troops did enter Estonia; the government resigned. The Soviet Union, on their part, called its plenipotentiary to discussions with the state president; the president of the Soviets in Leningrad Shdanow, at the time he was president there. The Russian local commander immediately requested that they be given the right to held meetings as they wanted to.
THE PRESIDENT: When did all this take place? What was the date?
A On 26th June, 1940. May Icontinue?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
ing of Faustenhof and announced that: He had appointed this government and this government would immediately arrange for elections to be held for the parliament. These elections were set for the 14 and 15th of July, 1940. During these elections, three days before the elections, all candidates who did not belong to the communist party were crossed off the list, and instead of elections which should have taken place according to the Estonian constitution, only those candidates were elected who belonged to the communist party. The votes were not publicly counted; the results of the election were not made known according to election districts; in Estonia election procedure is the same as that in England, but only the total result was made public namely that 92 per cent of the voters had voted for the communists after that. This first chamber of the parliament convened, while the second chamber, the second house of parliament which had been intended by the Estonian Constitution -
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, did you tell all this to Sandberger? about Estonia. I did not explain this only to him, but I had to explain it to every German who was active in Estonia because we could not expect them to understand us if we didn't explain to them what actually happened in Estonia, and we did not want to be governed-
THE PRESIDENT: Did you tell each German who came into your country about the election; and how many were in the one chamber and how many in the other chamber?
A Yes. To all functionaries who could make decisions concerning us I had to explain all this; nor only I, but possibly also my colleagues because I did not meet every functionary.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, suppose you try to abbreviate it; don't give it to us so much in detail.
A Yes, to say it briefly, I informed Dr. Sandberger that according to our opinion Estonia was governed in violation of the agreement with the Soviet Union, and of International law, and had been occupied illegally.
Immediately after the occupation by the Soviet Union, Estonia, was declared as a state, annexed to the Soviet Union, and the Soviet authorities started to be active in Estonia. As to the sufferings of the Estonian people in particular, this was first of all the activity of the NKWD; secondly, the deportations of ten thousands of Estonians carried out in an inhuman and brutal manner; and the activity of the elimination battalions.
MR. GLANCY: One moment, witness; one moment, please. If it pleas the Tribunal, the Prosecution has no desire to suppress any evidence which might help to clarify the defendant Sandberger's position and listening for almost twenty-five minutes, to the testimony which the witness has given
THE PRESIDENT: Do you still tell us, witness, that you told all this to Sandberger?
THE PRESIDENT: Sandberger had a lot of leisure time apparently.
A I didn't understand.
THE PRESIDENT: Sandberger had a lot of leisure time apparently.
A Well, I didn't tell him all this all at once.
THE PRESIDENT: What did you do, meet every once in a while and you would sit down in a rocking chair and you would tell him this long story about Estonia's history? And it was my duty to inform these German authorities who had to make decisions concerning us.
THE PRESIDENT: What did you do? we wanted to avoid. For that reason I explained to him the situation which he found there, and perhaps could understand. I told him the causes and the reasons. I told him that there were three institutions and actions. This was in connection with the NKWD, the deportations and the elimination battalions who terrorized our people to such an extent that we were really quite desperate, and for that reason the people asked that communists who had taken part in these actions be punished.
MR. GLANCY: In order to abbreviate proceedings, the Prosecution is willing to concede that the defendant Sandberger was fully briefed by the good Doctor, now present, on all political history in Estonia, and the things that brought the entry and the occupation which preceded the occupation. If he would just summarize, it would help a great deal.
THE PRESIDENT: There did all these conversations take place, witness, at your home or in his office; or, while you were out taking a little stroll?
A No, in the office of Dr. Sandberger, in Talinn.
THE PRESIDENT: And he would put aside all his affairs and listen to you talk?
THE PRESIDENT: He must have been. to him in several days. Unfortunately, my explanation to this question cannot be brief. I will be glad to restrict myself to the statement that the Estonian people were aroused because of all the communist functionaries, and that in Estonia there was not a single family who had not suffered personally under this.
THE PRESIDENT: Over what period of time did these conversations take place, so that you finally were rails to acquaint Sandberger with the story of your country's turmoils? How long did it take you to tell him this story?
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid we can't give you that much time here. We are a little busier than Sandberger appeared to be at that time, so, during the recess, suppose you try in your mind to condense the story and then when we reconvene again at 1:45, give it to us a little more tersely than you gave it to Sandberger in 1941.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours, 7 November 1947.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 7 November 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HJALMAR MAE - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
DR. VON STEIN: May I proceed?
THE PRESIDENT: You may. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, we stopped at your explanation of conditions in Esthonia. Now, in order to hasten the procedure, I want to put precise questions to you which I want you to answer briefly. What did Sandberger learn from you, about the first big action of the NKWD, which took place on 14 July 1941 in Esthonia?
A. I informed him that on the 14 June 1941, that is, before the beginning of the war and during the period of the peace and friendship agreement between the Soviet Union and Esthonia -- in the night of the 14th June -- that people were arrested and imprisoned: 3512 men, 3024 women and 3067 children. These victims were respected Esthonians and wellknown in public life or in local life. They were also workers, of course, even farmers; and of those seized and deported ones, in order to give an idea of it, were people from newly-born children to people of 82 years of age of all classes of the population. This deportation was quite unexpected and took place in front of the whole population because the trucks, with barbed wire, were at this railway station before the eyes of the population and the whole situation created among the population desperation and hate against Bolshzvism, because considering the population of Esthonia, practically every family was hit by this measure.
Q. That did Sandberger find out through you and other Esthonian personalities concerning Extermination Battalions.
A. I told him that Extermination battalions were active in all circles and all territories in Esthonia, by order of...
MR. GLANCY: One moment, please. If it please the Tribunal, we again wish to renew our objections on the same basis as before. These occurrences, as far as we can see, have no relevancy to one charges as ledged against the defendant Sandberger in the indictment. These are purely collateral and are not connected in any way, matter or form which we can see.
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, the defendant Sandberger, as all the other defendants, is charged with being guilty of shooting many Communists. I want to clarify with the help of this witness which Communists were shot at that time and what the attitude of the Esthonian population was as to this. Therefore I think these questions are relevant.
MR. GLANCY: The Esthonian population is not being charged before this Tribunal, merely the defendant Sandberger, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. von Stein, what did the attitude of the population have to do with the defendant's action? Do you intend to submit that the defendant went there to execute the will of one Esthonian population?
DR. VON STEIN: No, your Honor. I want to emphasize two points. The first is what did Snadberger know about these things when he resolved the order in Pretzsch. Secondly, the execution of this order, as I shall prove, was not only carried out on the part of the German authorities but also largely by the Esthonian Civilian Guards in self defense. which Sandberger at that point entered, it is of great importance to show the attitude of the Esthonian people towards Communism.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will permit the question and the objection will be overruled; but I think you should try to bring it as quickly as possible to the real issue in the case, namely, whether Sandberger was guilty of any crimes.
DR. VON STEIN: Yes, your Honor. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, I repeat the question to you: What did you tell Sandberger concerning the extermination battalions?
A. Extermination battalions had been installed by order of the Commissar of Interior Matters in all the Sectors who had the order to work independently without any examination or investigation against everybody who spread rumors and who were regarded as Soviet enemy elements or those who were regarded to be against the occupation powers and to eliminate such elements which otherwise could come into the hands of the enemies. -- as regards the Deportation....
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. You used the words "enemy" and "occupying power." Now, in that part of the world who was an enemy today might be a friend tomorrow; who was occupying today would be an invader tomorrow because at one time Germany and Russia were fighting side by side. So that, use the name of the nation and of the nationals, otherwise some difficulty might arise in trying to determine just whom you are referring to.
THE WITNESS: Yes. I beg your pardon, your Honor.
A. (Continuing) there was an order by the People's Commissar for Interior Affairs. Germany was regarded as an enemy because, at that moment the country was in Soviet Russian hands.
THE RESIDENT: What year was that?
THE WITNESS: That was In July, 1941. War was at that time waging within the country. These extermination battalions COURT II CASE IX did not only fight the enemy, that is, Germany, but also they fought Esthonians at the actual places because Esthonian men, as they were afraid of deportation, had fled into the woods, and forests and the moors and there tried to protect their families when extermination battalions were approaching.
opinion, quite a number of defenseless, innocent people and not only murders alone, but also tortures which we regarded as inhuman; for this reason the population was so much enraged against the extermination battalions, that in the front lines in which Estonian Defense police had arrested members of the Extermination Battalions, these were dealt with immediately there and then.
THE PRESIDENT: These elimination battalions, who were they? I told you to use the name of the nation. Otherwise we are going to get into a lot of amgiguity.
THE WITNESS: Yes. These elimination battalions consisted on the Soviet side and the Esthonian side. The Esthonian self-defense organizations which operated in the woods and forests and in case of fights had arrested members of these battalions who had committed murders shot them there on the spot, through a court martial. Therefore, I made the effort, that is why I talked to Sandberger about this, to prevent these independent acts in these places and I tried to introduce an actual examination immediately because I did not want illegal and impossible circumstances to prevail in the front areas.
Q. Witness, did you tell the defendant Sandberger about the losses on the part of the Esthonians through the actions of these elimination battalions or other actions by the Communists?
A. On the whole, Esthonia lost, until the end of October 1941, 108,000 members of the population. Of these losses there are about 65,000 people which were lost in these actions.
Q. What is the whole population of Esthonia?
A. 1.2 million inhabitants.
Q. Witness, is it true that the Esthonian population was generally of the opinion that one had to recokno with the fact that these Esthonians which were deported by the Russians, were taken to Russia or would be taken to Russia and would be killed there and was it the opinion of the Esthonians that the German Security Police found out about this?
THE PRESIDENT: That question is not clear to the Tribunal. I don't know if it is to the witness.
DR. VON STEIN: The witness has just explained that large numbers, thousands and tens of thousands of the population were deported. He told us that the total losses were far beyond a hundred thousand of which a large part had already lost their lives before this action. I now put the question to the witness, what the attitude of the Esthonian population was and what they thought about the fate of the remainder of the deported people, whether the Esthonians were of the opinion at that time that they would over see their family members again or whether they had to reckon that they would probably be killed in Soviet Russia and would never return to their home country. I think this question important for the reason that the witness will tell us that the population must be very much embittered and that these matters must have influenced the population so much that they organized their own self defense and retaliation measures and that is how the number of thousandsof people appears in the documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Your question is entirely too broad. You want this witness to tell what every member of the population thought. In the first place, how can he tell what anybody thinks? Now he's already explained that they suffered great losses and he's told about deportations. The deeds speak more than thoughts. So he can't testify as to what everybody else thought. He can only testify as to what they said and what they did. Now, it seems you have indicated what he told Sandberger so the time ought to be ripe now to bring Sandberger in on the Scene.
DR. VON STEIN: What I meant, Your Honor, was this: The witness must know what the general atmosphere of the Esthonian people was at that time and I put the question to the witness, whether he gave Sandberger an idea of this attitude and atmosphere within the Esthonian people. That was my question.
THE PRESIDENT: That isn't what your question was originally. You asked him what the population thought. Now, if you will ask him what he told Sandberger, that is another thing; and, furthermore, it seems that he's already told us what he told Sandberger.
DR. VON STEIN: Yes, Your Honor, I shall withdraw the question. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, I put the following question to you: What did Sandberger learn from you about the regulations prevailing in the Esthonian Republic concerning Communist activities?
A. The Communist Party and activities in Esthonia was prohibited since the public riot attempt 1st December, 1924. Activities were regarded illegal and therefore punished by court martial.
MR. GLANCY: If it please the Court, the membersof the Prosecution do not wish to seem persistent, but again we enter the same objection on the same grounds, that of relevancy. That the population thought about the Communists has nothing to do with the crimes with which the defendant Sandberger is charged.
THE PRESIDENT: You are now going back to 1924 what the Esthonian population thought in 1924 or what the official attitude of the Republic was in 1924.
You are going back to 1924 and a great deal happened between 1924 and 1941 which could completely change a scene which occurred in 1924. That is certainly too far back.
DR. VON STEIN: This morning I heard the President put a question concerning Communists. This question wasput to the defendant Steimle and it was to the effect whether Steimle had had Communists shot just because they were Communists.
THE PRESIDENT: That was in 1941. I certainly didn't ask him what he did in 1924.
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, it does not refer to the years 1924 or 1920 but it merely refers to the time 1940, that is, even the time before Russia invaded Esthonia.
THE PRESIDENT: And there is a vast difference between the question which the Tribunal put to Steimle, who is a defendant charged with a specific crime, and this witness, who is not a defendant and who has come in here only to testify as to conditions which Sandberger was familiar with. Now, Sandberger certainly didn't know what was happening in Esthonia in 1924. At any rate, he isn't chaged with any knowledge of what happened in 1924, and even if we suppose that he did know, are you going to argue that because the Communists did certain things that Sandberger was privileged to do the same? Is that your theory?
DR. VON STEIN: No, Your Honor. My starting point is the following: I want to show the Tribunal what the legal rules were prevailing until 1941 concerning Communism or Communist activities and what did Communist action mean. Did it mean that a man would be punished severely just because he was merely a communist?
THE PRESIDENT: We have already allowed you to do that and we will allow you even further to do it, but its don't see how it is going to help anybody to have this witness tell us about 1924 which is the date the witness mentioned.
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, I only asked the witness the question concerning the time until the time 1941 and how the situation was at that time. I don't want to know how it was in 1924, I only want to hear from the witness what he himself told Sandnerger about legal regulations in Esthonia before the Russians occupied Esthonia.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it you don't want to hear about 1924 and the Tribunal doesn't want to hear about 1924, I guess we are unanimous, we don't want to hear about 1924.
DR. VON STEIN: No, I don't want to hear anything about 1924; I want to hear about 1940.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Let's hear about 1941. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, what were the regulations prevalent in Esthonia in 1940 concerning Communism or Communist activities?
A. It was legally forbidden; Communist activities were regarded illegal and was punished by court martial. The sentences were up to death sentences.
THE PRESIDENT: Well now, I don't quite follow you. Which government is issueing these decrees, now?
THE WITNESS: The government of the Esthonian Rupublic.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought that you had told us that the Soviet government had taken over; that they had won the election; that you had a Soviet government after 1940.
THE WITNESS: On the 22 June 1940 the Esthonian independent government ceased to exist. Until then Communism had been forbidden, as I said.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but who was your government in 1941?
THE WITNESS: 1941, Esthonia was part of the Soviet Union and had been annexed as such.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you telling us that the Soviet government was putting up manifestoes that anyone advocating Communism would be shot?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. von Stein asked you to tell us about the conditions in 1914, and you proceeded to tell us about these decrees prohibiting Communist activity.
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, I put the question for the period before the occupation of Russia. I want to find out what was before. There are various periods of time concerned, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment.
DR. VON STEIN: There are various periods of time here. The first time until the occupation of Esthonia by the Soviet Union; then the second period, that is the time of the actual occupation by Soviet Russia, and the third stage is -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. von Stein, the Tribunal is aware of these different periods. What we are endeavoring to have you do, and the witness also do, is to indicate what period you are referring to, but if you begin to talk without indicating the date, without indicating the nation, then this testimony is of no value whatsoever.
BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q? Witness, I shall put the following question. What were the legal regulation concerning the punishment of Communistic activities until the occupation of Esthonia by the Soviet Union?
A. As I said, Communism, until 22 June 1940 was prohibited in Esthonia by law, and was punishable by military law, up to death sentences.
Q. What punishments were imposed? Can you tell the Tribunal in what cases death sentences were imposed, and what usual punishments were imposed for other activity?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr von Stein, we have this much, that up until 22 June 1941, Esthonia officially prohibited the practice of Communism, and for the violation of that decree punishment could be meted out even up until death. Now, we have that. Now don't go back to that any more.
DR. VON STEIN: May I point out Your Honor, apparantly it was a translation mistake, and apparently '40 and '41 have not been translated. properly. The witness in now dealing only with the period for '40.
The date in '40 is before the occupation of Esthonia by the Communist. He is now only talking about that period before this; that he is not speaking about 1941 when Russia was --
THE PRESIDENT: We got up tuntil June 22, 1941, that is what we have got. Is that wrong?
DR. VON STEIN: Can you tell the Tribunal the individual dates which we talked about. Tell us exactly the dates, and in part of the attitude of the government, and what the government of Esthonia had to do whether influenced by the Soviet Union at the time, or whether it was an independent nation?
THE PRESIDENT: You are giving him about fifteen question in one, long outpouring of words. Now, just a moment.
Q. Witness, there was a period of time during which Communism was prohibited, and the practice of Communism got severe penalties even including death; which period was that?
A. Until the 22 June 1940.
THE PRESIDENT: 1940. All right, now proceed from that point. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, what was the attitude of the Esthonian population from the Summer of 1941 concerning the punishment of those who participated in the actions of the Bolshevists in Esthonia?
A. The population asked for severe punishment for those who were actually quilty.
Q. Who carried out the arrests of those communists?
THE PRESIDENT: The population asked for severe punishment for what? For those who were guilty means nothing.
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon. The population asked for severe punishment of all those who in 1940 and '41 during the occupation of the country by the Communists made themselves guilty of murder of individual persons in Esthonia.
BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, I ask you again in order to establish the right dates. You spoke of people who made themselves guilty in such an action. When did they become guilty? What period was that?
A. The period is from the occupation of Estonia by the Soviet Union, 29 June, 1940, until the occupation of Esthonia by the German troops; that was in the course of June, July or August, until 21 October 1941.
Q. Tell the Tribunal what you mean by guilty. What does the term "guilty" mean? What did one do with people who were found guilty?
A. On the part of the elimination battalions, which we have been speaking about, and on the part of the NKWD, several thousand persons were murdered.
THE PRESIDENT: All right now, we understand up until June 22, 1940, those who practiced Communism were criminals, and could be executed; between June 22, 1940 and June 1941, those who did not practice Communism were guilty and could be killed, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct.-----
THE PRESIDENT: All right, let's proceed on that point now. Dr. von Stein you ask the questions.
DR. VON STEIN: Yes. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, after Esthonia was not under Soviet Sovereignty, any more then if I understood you right, the population asked for punishment for those who during the period of occupation had denounced others to the NKWD Esthonians, or had handed them over; are those the guilty people who after the Red Army left, were punished by the Esthonia authority?
THE PRESIDENT: You have made a very complicated question. It is a very simple thing. After the Soviets withdrew, and the German forces took over, then Esthonia went back to its original attitude of being anti-Communist, and demanded punishment of those who had been violent Communists during the Soviet period?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is so, Your Honor. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, who arrested these Communists who had been found guilty?
A. For the most part the Esthonia self-defense organization, partly the police.
Q. Were the investigations of any individual cases carried, out?
A. I cannot answer from my own knowledge, but so far as I have been informed, in most cases, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, just a moment.
A. (continuning) - but also
THE PRESIDENT: You are not permitted to say you have no knowledge of a thing, and then give us an answer. If you have no knowledge then you have no knowledge. Now, you either have it or you don't have it. You can't guess at your answers. Now, do you have any knowledge on this subject?
THE WITNESS: Well, yes. I understand the question asked by the Tribunal that is, the last question.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't put the question to you. It was your attorney who put to you the question. Put your last question again Dr. von Stein. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, I ask you now who conducted the investigations against these Communists?
A. The self-defense organization, and the political departments of the Police Main Office.
THE PRESIDENT: And you know this of your own knowledge?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Now the German Security Police carried out such investigations in July and August?
A. I don't think I can answer this question. I have no knowledge of this.
Q. Witness, after the German Army marched into Esthonia, that is, in July and August, 1941, who ordered the executions of the Communists ?
A. The local and field commanders ordered the executions.
THE PRESIDENT: At the end of your answer you say "Local and field commanders," which does not mean a thing. Which local and field commanders? The Esthonia local commanders or the German local commanders?
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon. I shall be more explicit. They were the field and local commanders of the German Wehrmacht, of the German Army who held the power.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, as soon as a conditions became a little more quiet, and the German Security Police had the possibility to take over from the formerly mentioned authorities that actual procedures could be initiated how was the actual procedure in these cases then?
A. Investigations were carried out by the political department of the Police Main Offices, the Esthonia Police Main Office.
Q. And who decided in that case?
A. The investigation materials were examined and investigated by committees, by examination committees, and with the judgments they were turned over to the German authorities.
Q. Of whom did these committees consist?
A. They were former Esthonia judges and other legal authorities.
