I myself asked for my personal leave of absence which was not granted. A disciplinary action was taken against me, because of carrying out my office supervision in a bad manner and, because I had tried to clean up the matter directly with the State Police Leader. The offense was considered by my covering up the actions of my Staff Leader. After the proceedings had come to my staff leader was transferred as a punishment. A small place in the center part of Germany. He was barred from being promoted for four years, and I personally got a first reprimand. The only disciplinary punishment which I ever received. secution with a clear conscience, whether you had ever taken part in a Jewish action? were you on 9 November 1938?
AAs I already stated I was in Belgium. I heard about the events in Germany on the morning of 9 November 1938, in the Belgian papers in Brussel.
DR. NEIF: Your Honor, I have no further questions. The redirect examination of the defendant Steimle is thus concluded, and, with the permission of the Tribunal I shall submit further a few documents at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Witness, your attorney has called your attention to a subject which was under discussion yesterday afternoon just as the Court recessed. Immediately before this subject was taken up, the one which you have now related in some detail this morning, we were discussing the partisan action in the woods in which partisans were killed, and, then later an execution took place. Now I understand this was on the road to Stalingrad, is that correct?
Q About when was this?
Q Yes. I understand this took place in a forest, in the woods?
A The actual seizure of the partisan group took place in the forest; that is during the fighting in which the male participants of this partisan group were killed during this action three women were captured.
Q Yes. Let's take up first the fighting. The fighting took place in the woods?
Q How many men did you have with you in this fight? into two or three groups in order to seize these pieces of forest which had been betrayed by a female deserter. Actually in the fight only one group took part, whereas the other groups arrived at a later point. sans?
Q What weapons did the partisans have? grenades. One of the partisans, for instance, who was arrested pretended that he had a gun when one of my men approached, and he used a hand grenade.
Q Were any of your men killed in this action? by the woman, was seized so that there was very short fighting that took place, and they were practically taken immediately.
Q Were any partisans killed in the action? in actual combat?
Q About how many men were there in the partisan group?
men?
A Thirty men had been assigned to this fighting at this road: there was only one group which actually took part in the fight, one group of my thirty men.
Q Yes, when you seized the girls, were they actually fighting?
A No, they didn't fight. One of the women was slightly injured in this fight.
Q One of the women was fighting, you say?
A No, she was just injured by the fight that took place. She was in this particular territory where the fighting took place.
Q Yes. Now you were able to seize three girls after you fought with these partisans? three girls? taken to our office.
Q Where was your office?
Q Then you conducted an investigation which lasted how long? approximately eight days, including the examination and investigations, as also witnesses were heard.
Q Was all this written up?
Q Was this done on a typewriter?
Q And were the records kept? we advanced or when a large number had been accumulated, they were destroyed.
Einsatzgruppe? tained an information service at Kiev, which could be proved; that was the reason why these women were shot.
Q Then you did make a report to the Einsatzgruppe Headquarters? they were shot eight or nine days after they were seized, is that correct?
Q And the executions was done by your own men?
Q How old were these women or girls?
A They must have been women in the age group between 25 and 35. I remember that one was a school inspector, the other one was also a teacher. I don't remember the profession of the third one. them?
A No. One came from Stalingrad, the other one Dnjepo, and as for the third, I don't know where she came from.
that was done before you executed them? service because they were all three active Communists of no religious conviction. you executed them? and adherents to the Communist program, and this means that they can have no religious conviction. some religious comfort was afforded them? have been done. I myself wouldn't have bothered.
Q You are not a religious man yourself?
A No, I am not a member of any church. Personally I have disputed the religious question with myself. My education was very Christian, and until this very day I have been on good terms with my very Christian family. I have always had great respect of religious conviction. woods ? kilometers from Nishnits-shirskaja. place? away from the forest where the partisans were killed.
Q How many men did you have in your firing squad?
A Ten men took part in it. Three or four men shot at one woman.
immediate?
Q Did you give the command to fire yourself? gave it, but I was present myself.
Q And you saw to it that it was done in a military, humans fashion?
Q Yes. Now, you witnessed this execution from beginning to end, didn't you.? death of them? was the leader of one of the groups, by group which approached from another direction, arrived too late at the place of fighting and at that moment the fight itself was over, but I arrived at the place. against the partisans?
Q Yes. Now do you have a pretty good memory? the execution and about the fight with the partisans. Yesterday afternoon, or the day before yesterday, between the hours of four o'clock and four-fifteen, and I will specifically refer to the transcript as Take 23, Page 1, this is what the English transcript says.
"Q I still have a few questions to ask of you which concern your entire activity as kommando office leader. As a kommando leader, did you ever attend an execution?
"A No."
Were you telling the truth day before yesterday; are you telling us the truth this morning?
which was a conclusive question, after I had explained my first - my activity in the first kommando.
THE PRESIDENT: I have taken the trouble to have this dialogue looked up in the German copy, and I have handed it to the interpreter. The interpreter will please take out the German record and read that question and answer as it appears in the German transcript.
(Thereupon the German interpreter read the above question and answer in the German transcript to the witness.)
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY THE PRESIDENT. compared it with the English text, and the texts agree. The question was. "Did you ever attend an execution?" That was all embracing And your answer was "No." Now, you have given us in precise particulars the story of an execution which you not only attended but directed. Now your answer is, do I take it, that you misunderstood your attorney's question?
A Yes. In discussion ofmy first kommando 7a. I answered the question of my defense counsel, while this event we have now discussed took place during my second assignment in 4a. The question has already been put here before. He put the question about the Army to which my kommando 7a was also assigned, and only very much later, after this question had been asked, the question of my second kommando was taken up by my defense counsel. Therefore, from the text it is quite evident that the question as meant by myself, and probably also by my defense counsel only referred to my activities during my first kommando.
DR. LEIF (For Defendant Steimle): hay I say, your Honor, as an explanation, that the witness is correct in this particular thing, that in the direct examination in our case it was built up so that first his activities in Kommando 7a were discussed, and as conclusive question for this particular subject the question was put to him, if I may repeat it now, "I have another few questions to you which refer to the entire time as the kommando leader.
Did you, as a kommando leader, ever take part or were you present at an execution?" This was the conclusive question referring to his activities in Special Kommando 7a.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now, let us see if he is referring to the same thing in this other matter. This morning he gave us a very detailed description of his participation in a fight with the partisans. The day before yesterday he made this statement. "Your Honor, I said that I spoke with my subordinate officers about these machines, that I test the activities." Apparently I was questioning him about his activities in the SD work. And then the witness goes on, "And I have also explained why I, as a militarily trained man, did not participate in these partisan actions. The documents show this action clearly, how they were carried out." Then later on when it seemed rather extraordinary to the Tribunal that this man who was in charge of an action group did not take part in any action, he was questioned further, and he said, "I didn't lead a platoon of active SS men into the forest." Then carrying the matter still further, we put this final question to him. "You never led them into any action; you didn't lead them into any fight?" And the answer is, "No."
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, these questions were put in connection with the explanation of my first kommando where these partisan combats were carried out under participation of and on order by the Wehrmacht, and my statements referred to this activity during this time, and I here also referred to the documents. They all refer to this first activity of mine, the first kommando 7a, and this answer is still valid for this particular activity even now. BY THE PRESIDENT: police work?
the SD work was of much more importance to me. work of the police work? Service of the SD, but my SS duties, I thought more important.
Q And you devoted more time to that than to the police work?
Q And did your superior officers know this? the information service and they were satisfied. work? work in the partisan warfare during the time when, for instance, Foltes was there, was guaranteed; also the work which was carried out by myself, of course, and which I have already mentioned, as, for instance, the using of NKWD files at Kursk. That concerned mainly police work, and therefore it was approved, and it was looked upon with interest by my superiors. devoted considerable time, or more time to SD than the police work?
Nov-7-M-MJ-4-1-Hoxsie (Hildesheimer)
A. I don't know whether they were very pleased about it. I didn't hear any utterances of disapporval, and certainly not during my second kommando where I was on very good terms with my superior.
Q. Didn't your superior officer ever tell you that you should devote more time to the police work than the SD work?
A. No, I was not told that as in my kommando there was also always somebody who was dealing with the police work.
Q. All right. Now, we will refer to your testimony of day before yesterday. You are talking with Nebe and this is your answer. "He told me that the necessity of police security seemed to be more important than the security in the SD work."
Q. Did I state that?
A. Yes, that is what you said.
Q. Nebe?
A. Your answer is, "He told me" - this is Nebe speaking. That is, it is your testimony. Nebe "told me that the necessity of police security seemed to be more important than the security in the SD work." Now, which statement are you going to stand on, the statement you made day before yesterday or what you are giving us this morning?
A. I can only just remember to have said that Nebe, when I was on my way to Moscow, and came to see him, that Nebe in fact, then told me that he had to ask me that as far as Jews are concerned children and women also have to be killed. A comparison between police work and SD work I cannot remember, and I can only imagine that it might have been a mistake in the translation, Your Honor.
Q. Then you challenge the correctness of the transcript in that respect?
A. No, I can find no other explanation for it, because I cannot remember having said it in this particular phase.
Q. Then you challenge the correctness; a mistake occurred in the translation or in the actual transcription, that is the only ex planation you can offer?
A. It could have been a misunderstanding, Your Honor, yes.
Q. You say that you yourself did not utter these words which I have read to you?
A. I cannot remember really, Your Honor.
Q. Now, the reports which have been submitted here in the document books show very clearly that this kommando of which you were the leader, 7a, conducted many executions, As of 13 September the execution total is given as 1011. When you were asked about that you said that you only know of eight who had been executed, but you did not know whether they were killed by your predecessor or by yourself.
A. Of these eight people I spoke in this connection, and I said that between the report of the 20th of August, which says that 996 executions were carried out, and up to the report of September which mentions 1011, there is, in fact, an increase of about 15 executions. In connection with these 15 executions I said that of these, eight can be found in the document books as people who were shot in partisan warfare. I did not speak about the remainder of the people.
Q. I am asking you if you did not remember whether these eight were killed by yourself or your predecessor. Did you so testify?
A. I said approximately that. Whether they were shot in my absence or whether they were shot after the 20th of August or in my presence I do not know.
Q. Now, you include the possibility they may have been shot in your presence?
A. That they could have been shot during the time when I was already in charge of the kommando that would mean, the time from 7 of September up to the 13th. It is possible that in this time eight of these people were executed.
Q. The translation came through that they could have been shot in your presence. You don't remember, but they could have been, is that right?
A. Not in my presence, but in the time when I had taken over the kommando, that is the leadership of the kommando.
Q. Didn't you make a report of the executions which you conducted or ordered?
A. The reports, written reports concerning individual actions, were made out, and I have said that these reports were made out by my kommando leader, and deputy, Foltes, but that in general I know about these reports.
Q. Then why wouldn't you remember whether these eight were executed by yourself or by your predecessor?
A. Because I was not present when these actions were carried out, and it would have been an event which would have been carried out during the first days of my activity in this kommando, when I had first arrived here in Welisch, or possibly at the garrison of the other kommando in Uelikki Luki.
Q. Do you now tell us they were not executed, these eight while you were in charge?
A. I do not know what to say. I can only say, based on the notes in the documents, that at one particular combat eight partisans were shot, and I can only say that it must have been so.
Q. The document reports show that the execution total for 7a, as of 28 September was 1252; asof 26 October, 1344; asof 14 November, 1517. Do you admit the correctness of these reports?
A. I cannot say whether this number is correct or wrong, because I don't remember the individual figures. I am sure that the basis of these figures are reports of my own kommando.
Q. Then you admit that these figures could be correct?
A. They could be correct, yes.
Q. That your kommando executed, as of 13 September, 1011; as of 28 September, 1252; as of 26 October 1344; as of 14 November 1517.
You admit your kommando killed that many people?
A. I can only repeat that which I have already said and in clear from the documents and in my own memory, these shootings are, on the whole, shootings carried out in connection with the operations against partisans.
Q. Now, we are only speaking of the total number of people killed. Are these reports correct as to the total number of people killed, whether they were partisans or not?
A. I can likewise, as I have already said, only assume that it must be based on reports of my kommando, but the executions were carried out by the Army. I have already said in my direct examination that, for instance, the report concerning 183 shootings in connection with t the assignment of two divisions was not carried out, not only by my kommando, but also the participating Army units.
Q. You don't question these reports insofar as members are concerned, is that right?
A. And the carrying out of the executions, whether they were carried out by my own men or by the Wehrmacht, by the Army units taking part.
Q. Now, please answer the question. The reports in the document book show that Kommando 7a killed so many people, and I have given you the figures. Do you, or do you not question the figures? I am only speaking of the figures.
A. I cannot say with certainty that the figures are correct, but I can only say that they are based on reports by my kommando.
Q. Very well, You had approximately one hundred men in your kommando, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were divided up into various groups, various subkommandos?
A. In two subkommandos at that time.
Q. Only two?
A. During the period of these partisan operations, two subkommandos, Welisch and Velikki-Luki.
Q. You were nine months in the field in all, weren't you, four the first time and five the second time?
A. The first was approximately three and a half months, yes, and the second time must have been about nine months, yes.
Q. Nine months the second time?
A. No, altogether.
Q. Yes, nine months, all right. Now, in these nine months' time, do we understand you to say that not one Jew was killed by your kommando?
A. Yes, as far as I know no Jews were shot by my own kommando,
Q. In nine months' time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, during all this time the Fuehrer Order was well known of corse, wasn't it, that Jews were to be killed?
A. Yes,
Q. And your subkommandos who carried out independently of you had this order, didn't they?
A. It was known to them.
Q. Yes. And you never revoked the order as far as they were concerned, did you?
A. No, no.
Q. Why didn't they execute the order since they had it in all its completeness without modification and without any instruction from you to disregard it. Why didn't they execute the order?
A. The kommandos in Welisch and Velikki-Luki were, through security conditions prevailing there, so busied by partisan warfare that they could not cope with the order at the time. In RZHEV and Kalinin the frontal position was such--and anyway I was present in Kalinin--that the order for the shooting of Jews was conditioned by circumstances and was impossible.
In my second kommando, which was in the year "42, I was in the territory in which the Jewish population was practically not known to exist in any obvious manner. The advance towards Stalingrad went through the territory of the Don Cossacks. There were no Jews present, In addition to this, after the first halt in 1941, the halt of the German attack, the attitude of the Germans toward the Jews was known - by the Russians, and the Jews had tried to escape before the German advance, and, of course, in 1942 this was the same, even more extensively so.
Q. You yourself had an objection to the shooting of Jews, is that right?
A. I never protested to any superior about it but I uttered my misgivings and I tried to evade the order through the kind of which my assignment was.
Q. Why did you call Blume soft because he did not execute more Jews?
A. I never said that I called him soft, I said that the leader of EK-O said something to this effect about Blume.
Q. This was not your expression, that he was soft because he did not execute Jews?
A. No, that was certainly not my expression.
Q. Now, you say that you executed only partisans, is that right?
A. Partisans, yes.
Q. And you would not execute a partisan unless he were actually engaged in some action against you?
A. If they had not by any action whatsoever damaged the security condition of the territory concerned.
Q. You would not shoot him unless he committed some overt act?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Now, isn't it a fact that if you merely suspected a man of being a partisan that you shot him?
A. No. In that case he was an aid.
Q. He was what?
A. He helped -- he aided the partisans.
Q. And you would not shoot him?
A. If he helps or assists the partisans, then he is shot.
Q. Yes. Well, suppose you only suspected him of aiding, of being a partisan, would you shoot him?
A. If it had been confirmed that he helped the, then he should not be shot.
Q. Did you ever shoot anyone merely because he was suspected of being a partisan?
A. I never shot anybody myself. I know that it says in one report that people suspected of being partisans were shot.
Q. Well, that is not in a report, that is your own affidavit, isn't it?
A. That is not only my own affidavit, but is based on a report from the document in which it was said that in one particular operation of the commando in connection with wehrmacht units, partisans -- 40 partisans, or perhaps 41 partisans and people suspected of being partisans were shot. This report was read to me in my examination, and I said after the name of the village had been mentioned, that this village had been within my territory -- in the territory of my commando, and therefore it must have been my commando who carried it out.
Q. Your commando then executed people merely because they were suspected of being partisans in this instance?
A. Based on this report which is in this document, partisans and people suspected of being partisans -- there are 40 people who are concerned here -- must have been shot.
Q. Yes. Now, in shooting a man merely because he was suspected of being a criminal or a partisan, it was entirely possible that some innocent people were shot?
A. I hope that this was not the case.
Q. Well, it is possible, isn't it?
A. If it is just a suspicion, I cannot exclude it, but I believe that these must have been people who assisted the partisans.
Q. Now, just a minute, please. We have gone through that, we are not talking about those who assisted, those who assisted were partisans, they were active partisans; I am speaking only of those who were suspected of being partisans, they were shot. Now I am asking you whether it is not possible that when you executed a group of people known only as being suspected partisans, that an innocent person might be included in that group suspected of being partisans.
A. I think that investigations were conducted to that this case would be excluded.
Q. Now, I am putting this question directly to you, and please don't circumvent the question. If there is an investigation and a man is proved to be a partisan, the man is a partisan; if there is an investigation and he is proved to have assisted and the rules could have been put in effect then he would have been shot. I am speaking merely of one who is a suspect and when you make a list you say so many partisans, so many suspected partisans -- now I am referring to so many suspected. There is a possibility that an innocent man might be included in that group, is that correct?
A. If this report -
Q. Now, please answer that question. We are speaking of suspected partisans. If you shoot suspected partisans, there is a possibility that in some instance the suspicion is unfounded.
Do you admit that possibility?
A. If in any case people suspected to be partisans are executed without their guilt being proven ever of a smaller activity, in that case innocent people could have been shot, but I may assume, your Honor
Q. Well, you have told us the rest, that there was always an investigation, but you nonetheless in making up this statement very clearly said the persons executed were partisans, that is one group; persons suspected of being partisans, that is a second group; and members of the Russian army in the area of the 9th Army who had been hiding and disregarded our order, that is the third group. Now we have your explanation on suspected partisans. Day before yesterday we were on this subject and you stated in answer to a question, "Also in few questions so-called people suspected of partisan activity were shot." Now you went on further because -- we will give you the whole answer, "Among them were people of whom it could at least be proved that they voluntarily had been active for the partisans either by giving reports to the partisans or by assisting them in some manner voluntarily". Do you stand on that answer?
A. Yes. Thus was my conception of the term "suspected of being a partisan."
Q. I am calling your attention particularly to the wording. In referring to "Suspect", you said, "among them were people of whom it could at least be proved". "Among them", you don't say "all of them", but "among" those suspects.
A. According to my memory I said, "by people suspected to be partisans, were meant those who aided and abetted of an activity."
Q. Then you said the word "suspect".
A. Yes. I said the word "suspect."
Q. Well, do you understand what "suspect" means?
A. Yes.
Q. So when you say that in every case of an execution an exami nation was conducted and the guilt proved, and you used the term "suspect" with regard to individual, you are using the word incorrectly, are you aware of that?
A. Your Honor, my concept is the following. A partisan is a man who is active within his group. Those who help these groups make themselves suspects of indulging in partisan activity, but through this help he contributes toward the partisans and, therefore, he becomes punishable. That is my conception of it. He himself is not a partisan by not actually standing in the woods. I cannot call him a partisan because he is not a partisan, but he assists the partisan movement because he gives them information and news. He gives them supplies.
Q. And that is what you call a suspect?
A. This is the suspect, yes, to be a partisan himself and at the same time commits an act which gives reason for his execution, as punishment for his action.
Q. I think you might do yourself a great deal of good in studying the meaning of the word suspect. When you took over the commando, you started out to fight communism, didn't you?
A. Yes, I was detailed to Russia to take over this special commando. The purpose of the special commando was only made known to me when I arrived in Russia.
Q. And you were out to fight the communists and destroy the communists, is that right?
A. I refused to recognize communism as such, my duty was mainly to pass on information. I was simultaneously assigned to a military task, but this I had not expected before.
Q. Well, you were out to fight coumminsm, and it was your order to execute communists?
A. To shoot active communists.
Q. What would you call as activity on the part of a communist?
A. If a communist who, in a territory occupied by a German army unit actively opposes the decrease of the German army actively, be it by following the proclamation of the communist party in Russia, and contributes towards making the occupation of the German troops intensible, in that case he is an active communist who resists the occupation power and expresses it actively; this is communism.
Q. Suppose a communist makes a speech in which he merely talks about communism and speaks of his adherence to Karl Marx, makes no reference to Germany or its occupying forces, would you regard that as an activity calling for his execution?
A. He expresses his theories to me or any private person, this would hot be a reason for his execution, but if he -
Q. All right, now -
A. If he speaks to a larger public, then he is an active communist who acts against the decrease of the German occupation power which says that any activity for the communist party is prohibited, and will be punished by death.
Q. So that if you came into a room and found a communist speaking to 4 or 5 people, expounding the theory of Karl Marx and indicating his adherence to that theory, you would have him shot?
A. If he makes statements to the effect to resist the German cause, in this case I would have had him shot.
Q. Now, don't repeat my question. I said, you walk into a room and this man is making a speech for communsim to a group of 5 or 10 or 15 people, and he merely tells them how he likes the theory of Karl Marx, and he gives them a long speech about communism; he doesn't mention the Germans at all, would you take him out and shoot him?
A. I would first of all find out if there was an active resistance against the German occupation behind all his theory.
Q. Now, I have given you the question, don't introduce any other elements. You have had 8 days -- you had had an investigation of 8 days, and you find only that they made this speech and that he indicated a devout adherence to Karl Marx. Would you have him shot?
A. I would have got a look at the man, and if I was under the impression that he would put his theoretical conviction into seed, in that case I would have had him shot.