TEE PRESIDENT: Did you not find any synagogues in your travels through Russia?
TEE PRESIDENT: You never saw a synagogue?
A I don't know how I could have found a synagogue....
THE PRESIDENT: I ma just asking you. You didn't see a synagogue in all the time you traveled in Russia and in the Ukraine?
THE PRESIDENT: In looking at your personal record I find a referennce to various decorations, and I am only asking as a matter of information what some of these decorations mean. What is meant by the decoration "Yuletide Candlesticks". Did you receive that decoration?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, the "Yuletide Candle sticks" is not really a distinction. It is an old Germanic object of cult. It is a candlestick where the Yuletide cnadle is put in and the remnant of the candle of the previous year is put under it so that the light continues to burn, and by the light of this candle all things concerning the family such as births and birthdays are celebrated while this candle is lighted in midst of a family circle. BY THE PRESIDENTS:
Q Well, is this in the form of a decoration or not? I don't know. I am only asking for information. among the leaders and SS men.
Q They were given by whom?
A By the Reich leadership of the SS. Every agency was constantly given a certain amount of Yuletide Candlesticks to be distributed to men and leaders.
Q And was this done during the Yuletide? the personel record if it was so generally done. If everybody got a candle why is it in this record next to the Gold Party Badge and the Deathhead Ring? candlestick and celebrates important dates of the family in the spirit of Yuletide.
Q Is this a religious ceremony?
Q What is the "Sword of Honor?" after he has been a leader for three years. He gets it from the Reichsfuehrer. That was a purely peacetime affair.
Q And you got that too?
QAnd then you got the SA Badge in Bronze. How, what did you have to do to get that? SA within a prescribed sports program, marching, gymnastics, jumping, etc.
Q Yes, and then you got the Deathhead Ring. Now, what sport did you have to accomplish to receive the Deathhead Ring?
Q You say "you believe". Do I understand that you received a decoration and you don't know why you got it? automatically handed out,
Q Did you receive the Blood Medal?
Q Did you receive the Coburg Badge?
Q Did you receive the Riding Badge? you were involved the record of the victim was examined? were compiled and were handed to the AOK/6. military unit that was close to the scene, then it went to division headquarters, then it went to Army headquarters, is that correct? general and from there it was sent directly from G-2 to AOK.
Q Well, this was in G-2 of the division?
Q Yes, then AOK approved or disapproved? If it approved then the record came back?
A The records came hack?
Q And eventually got to where you were involved, to your kommando? listening to the witnesses, writing up the reports, giving them to 3-2, going to division headquarters, Army headquarters, and then coming back. How much time was consumed in that operation? interrogations had been partly carried out by the Army units already. Supplements were made and reports were added by our people, just as circumstances were. came from the commander in chief that a certain person should be executed? during the evening discussion or during the morning discussion respectively with the legal export came to his decision the following day.
Q I see. From the time the incident occurred until the papers got to the Army commander and returned, how much time expired? it was quite obvious that the actual culprit had been found, it did not take more than one or two days, while in other cases where it was necessary to do further work, it took longer. re followed?
A Three hundred, did you say?
Q No, thousands. The records here show,these documents show on some occasions....
A Thousands? Inasfar as it concerned retaliation, measures, it is said that Army units seized these people. As to these retaliation measures certainly there was no interrogation previously "but those were reprisals which, had been ordered by the commander in chief, how long they took in Lutsk, I don't know.
involved that each case had been examined.
A I couldn't answer to that, Your Honor, Every case, as far as I know, was examined by my leaders and also by those whom I knew personally. the statement you made about the Eisenhower Order?
Q You only heard about here?
Q Very well. How, the original order that Hitler issued provided for the execution of all Jews, that is correct, is it not? the entire Jewry, yes. bach? order, or rather to give such orders myself, I must say that I was fortunate enough, compared to others, to be subordinate to Oberbefehlshaber, a commander in chief. order, is that what we are to understand? importance to the fact that the culprits be seized who did harm to the troops, and within the advance march this Army corps, at the front, such actions could not be carried out; and he did not carry them out either; but later the situation changed when the front did not move any more and the Higher SS and Police Leader, also with his orders, became active besides the command of the AOK/6. Then the Fuehrer Decree came to effect in its entirety.
that all Jews were involved, then you said to your counsel or one of the attorneys who was questioning you that this meant only to seize the Jews. That is what you told Mr. Hochwald, that Streckenbach didn't mean to kill the Jews, but only to seize them, is that right? shot. This referred to the fact that the Jews were ordered to be shot right from the beginning, and one could see that Streckenbach did not like repeating this order, and that this was one of the worst moments of his life.
Q Very well. How the documents relate how tine after time when your commando was in the vicinity of a certain place the documents show that executions took place of Jews, not spies and saboteurs, but just Jews, For instance, one report shows that on a particular day there were 36 political functionaries, 32 saboteurs and looters, and 4372 Jews. How, when this particular operation occurred, naturally there was no detailed examination of the cases of these Jews. That is correct, is it not?
A Your Honor, I cannot say that. Those are affairs which concern another unit and these are figures which are mentioned for the Kiev territory.
where Jaws ware killed merely because they were Jews that you just happened to miss the train; you got there just as the train was leaving the station; you got there just as the parade went by, or you got there just as the circus tent was being pulled. down; you always got there, a little late. How did you happen to rime this so perfectly?
A Your Honor, this was not done, on. purpose. It just happens like that and it was as I have described here when part of the kommandos were assigned. Thye had to take part and the entire organisation of the SK 4a, that is, in. its two sub-divisions, were carried out at the dates fixed, as I have described. My personal illness has nothing to do with these dates. During these months I dragged along and I had to beg so that they at last recognized that I was ill. various doctors treated me. The same staff physician that treated the commander in chief treated me in Shitomir. The men died of the sans illness fight days later, and then the group physician treated me.
Q Just one final question, fitness. Have you ever had any personal differences with the Defendant Steimle? differences. reference to you as a "bloodhound." Can you imagine why a person who did not know you and had no differences with you, had no reason to dislike, you, would volunteer to make a statement of that kind? Let ms make this very clear that we are not giving any credence to this affidavit. I don't know whether he has any right to say or not. That is not the point and I don't want you to assume that we are underwriting what Steimle said. I am only asking you to make whatever explanation you can as to why a total stranger would go out of his way to use such deprivious language regarding yourself.
A your Honor, I am at a loss myself about this. I thought about it why Steimle should have done this. It may have been from my personal attitude, because I attempted to keep discipline and order end cleanliness in my unit and some people did not like it.
all would call a person a blood hound because he was clean and insisted upon sanitation?
A Your Honor, that is the. contradiction which results and that is what I cannot understand.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, fortunately, we will be in a position to hoar from the affiant himself and perhaps at that time it may be less ambiguous.
DR. GAWLIK(Attorney for the Defendant Seibert) Your Honor, I ask that it be granted that the Defendant Seibert be excused for Friday and Tuesday in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the Defendant Seibert may be excused from attendance in court tomorrow and Tuesday of next week in order to prepare his case with his counsel.
DR. FIGHT(Attorney for the Defendant Biberstein): Your Honor, following the questions which your Honor just addressed, I would like to address another question to the witness. May I?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, by all means.
DR. FICHT: As a result of your question.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly. BY DR FICHT (ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT BIEBERSTEIN): Fuehrer Decree that Jews were to be shot, merely because they were Jews in its entirety only had its effect when the fronts did not vove any more. Concerning this, I would like to ask you, did you mean to say only in the territories where the Higher SS and Police Leaders had been assignee or in the operation territory where the Einsatzkommandos were active? personally experienced, the territory of the AOK 6, which was under Reichenaw.
DR. FICHT: I have no further questions which interest me.
DR. HEIM( Attorney for the Defendant Blobel): Your Honor, would you permit me to address another question, following the questions of the Tribunal?
THE PRESIDENT: By all means. BY DR. HEIM (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT BLOBEL): carried out under your personal supervision?
DR. HEIM: Thank you. That is all. your Honor, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: You said in Sokal, and then had he completed his statement?
DR. HEIM: Yes, Your Honor, he said in Sokal.
THE PRESIDENT: You asked him how many executions of the SK 4a occurred under his direction. Then, he says two in Sokal, well, does he mean in all? Did these two happen to take place in Sokal? I don't know whether his statement was finished or not, Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness, do you mean, altogether 2 exeuctions under your supervision?
Q And where did that take place? took place in Sokal.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, the Tribunal will grant me another 5 minutes, I could finish the evidence of Blobel.
I wish to ask the Tribunal's permission chat I may ask that a criminal record be brought from the Defense Center concerning the witness who will be called to the witness box here.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't quite catch your request.
DR. HEIM: I ask the Tribunal to grant that I may get a criminal record for the witness Hartl, whom I will call into the witness box here.
THE PRESIDENT: You want to present a document of some kind which refers to the witness that you will call?
DR. HEIM: Yes, Your Honor. In Germany, it is like this: Is a certain Court about every person who has been fined, a list is kept in this record, the fines and personal notes are entered.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal authorizes you at obtain and submit that record.
DR. HEIM: Thank you, Your Honor. Now my last set of questions; During the case in chief of the Prosecution, the Tribunal was kind enough to allow ms, concerning a document submitted by the Prosecution during the case in chief of the Defendant Blobel, to make my final objection. It is an affidavit by a certain Hoess contained in Document Book III-C of the Prosecution, Exhibit No. 134. This document was only accepted temporarily at the time. Meanwhile, from the record of the Pohl case I have had an excerpt made concerning this document and, if the High Tribunal is pleased by this, I would like to read parts of it, which concern this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, I read from page 6236 of the German Record of Case IV before the Military Tribunal No. II of 3 September 1947. It says:
"MR. ROBBINS: The next document -- I don't have the original hers in Court so that I shall mark Exhibit 196 as document 4498A & B, and. I will offer it as soon as I can get the original. The Document Room has not completed the document as yet.
"DR. SEIDEL (For Defendant Pohl):"
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: If Your Honors please, I probably can shorten this a little bit. I have inquired into the whereabouts of this document and into the ruling of the Tribunal in the Pohl case and the Prosecution, submits that this document was rejected by the Tribunal in the Pohl case for the reason, that it is not a sworn statement.
I have in the meantime inquired with the Polish delegation. As the Tribunal knows, this document was made before a Polish judge, before Judge Sane, who is the investigating judge of the Polish Government for War Crimes. Judge Sane was present in Nurnberg, or, is still present, and I have obtained a certificate from the Polish Delegation to the effect that this statement was taken by Judge. Sane himself and that this is riot a sworn statement, but that Judge Sane re quested from the affiant to tell the truth. At the time when Hoess made this statement, he was a defendant in his own case and it is not usual that statements of such persons are taken under oath. It is not usual in Poland. It is against regulations in Czechoslovakia. I do not knew what the current rule is in Germany. the Polish, delegation and I shall submit it to the Tribunal as soon, as it is translated so that I can get translations for the German defense counsel. I would request at this time that the Tribunal may defer its decision on the admissibility of the document until the Tribunal has received this certificate.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that agreeable to you, Dr. Heim?
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, I agree that the discussion about this document should be deferred to a later date.
I have now finished the case of chief of Defendant Blobel. At a later date, that is very soon, I shall submit Document Book II for Defendant Blobel. There are only a few documents contained in it.
THE PRESIDENT: Tomorrow morning we will begin with the case of Blume. The Tribunal will now be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 31 October 1947, at 0930 hours.)
of America; against Otto Ohlendorf, et al;
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II-a.
Military Tribunal II-A is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Lummert, you are ready to proceed?
DR. LUMMERT: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Blume will be taken to the witness box. as follows: BY JUDGE DIXON:
Q Defendant, raise your right hand and repeat after me: will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
( The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE DIXON: You may be seated. BY DR. LUMMERT: data?
A My name is Walter Blume. I am 41 years of age. Before the German collapse I was a ministerial councillor and Colonel in the police in Office I of the Reich Main Security Office. I am married and have five children. that my examination of the defendant Blume, will be subdivided into three main sections. In the first section I shall ask the defendant Blame about his education, about his career and a few general questions.
In the second section we will deal with the 7 weeks when he stayed in the East. The third section finally will refer to Count III of the Indictment, the membership in the organizations declared criminal by the International Military Tribunal. In connection with the examination I shall introduce a few documents as evidence. description of your education? Westphalia as the son of a schoolmaster of a girls' high school. In my home town Dortmund, I went to elementary school for four years and after that I attended Hindenburg High School for 9 years, and the so-called "Abitur" the matriculation, I passed on Easter 1925. After that I studied law for six terms in Bonn, Jena and Muenster, and in 1923 I passed the first legal state examination, the "Referendar" examination at the Law Courts in Hamm. In the following years I received the proper legal training with several legal authorities in Dortmund and in Hamm. In July 1932, I passed the main State examination for law, the "Assessor" examination in Berlin. In 1933 I passed an exam as a doctor of law at the University of Erlangen.
Q Did you have a special aim for your career? state. In particular I aimed to work as a County Councillor. of a County Councillor? The Landkreis county district contains a number of communities and smaller cities which are an administrative district, while the larger towns are independent.
That is, they form their own independent city districts. In the state Bavaria , for example, there are about 150 of such districts. examination of law in July 1932, what did you do after that in order to achieve your aim, that is, to become a County Councillor? to be accepted as a civil servant in the state administration department but as I found out everywhere, in the State of Prussia at the time one had to be a member either in the social democratic party or in the "Centrum" party. Since I did not belong to either party my efforts were in vain at the time. May I add that owing to the idea of the class struggle I objected to the principal of the social democratic party. The Catholic Center Party, I was not interested in because I was a Protestant and thus did not agree with its Catholic principles. the middle of 1932 when your attempts to become a civil servant failed?
A like most legal"assessors" after their first legal state-examination I first was given the position of an unpaid assistant to a Judge at the Court in Dortmund. I kept this position after my examination until the spring of 1933. this field? I knew very well pointed out to me that perhaps now there would be a chance to become a civil servant in the administrative service. He knew my desire to become an officer in the inner administration and he offered to help me to get a position with the Police in Dortmund because he knew the then Police President at the time, the SA Gruppenfuehrer Schepmann personally.
I agreed to this because it would bring me closer to my professional aim. A few days later I was asked to see the Police President. At the time he just needed a lawyer in the Police in Dortmund, and, therefore, approved to my service there. After a few months of training time for which I was not paid, the Police President Schepmann, as he had told me during that first discussion, wanted me to go to the Prussian inner state administration, As a lawyer, therefore, I asked for leave of absence and started to work in the police in Dortmund about the end of March or the beginning of April 1933. I do not remember the exact date. with the NSDAP until that time in the spring of 1933? political party. My general political views were those of a good German citizen and of a man with nationalist views. My father was conservative in his political views. As for myself in the years before 1933, after I had become of age, I never felt any desire to become politically active. My interest in the problems and the political movements at the time was merely theoretical. I had not formed any ideology as yet but I was still searching. For that reason I had not joined any party.
Q Did you join the NSDAP or one of it's organizations or affiliations in 1933? Dortmund, the Police President Sehepmann told me one day the NSDAP had criticized him because he had employed a lawyer who was not a member of the Party.
He asked me to join the Party and I replied to him that I intentionally had not joined any party as yet, because I objected to those many people who joined the party for opportunistic reasons. He replied to me that it was in his interest if I joined the party because he would not then have any more difficulties because of me. For the same reason he would also like to sec to it that I became a member of the SA. He would then take me into his group staff, pro forma, I agreed to joining the Party and the SA and on the 1st of May 1933 I became a temporary party member and also a member of the SA, as a sturmfuehrer. That is the rank of a lieutenant in the staff of the SA in Westphalia. you said you became a member of the party and the SA and what were it's aims in your opinion? therefore, joined the party, and the SA I did not do that because I thought I would have an advantage in my profession but at the time I saw the connections between the national and social intentions as the NSDAP; I considered this to be an ideal solution of the very difficult economic and political problems in Germany, which, particularly, since 1930 made things very difficult in Germany. Most of all I objected to the idea of the class struggle which was the policy of the Leftist parties. Instead of this I considered the idea of an community as the NSDAP advocated to be right, I had not Party dogmas. The old and new party members were different kinds of people and the field of activities wi thin the party seemed very extensive to me and to be based on just ideals. The unity in the Party, in my opinion, was the idea of the union within the people, and I realized that it was not the number of party members which would help Germany out of its misery by only the temporary voluntary subordination under one will.
Apart from that I wanted the basic wellbeing of the economic situation in Germany and a good position of Germany in relation to the rest of the world. I was convinced that the NSDAP had wanted to achieve these aims in a legal and peaceful manner. The only difficulty was Russia, and I knew that there would have to be a. critical dispute. I considered this right from the very beginning and I even thought it probable because already then I saw no possibility of settling the differences between the Soviet aims of having a communist world revolution and the aims of the NSDAP concerning the national and social rebirth of Germany. a national-socialist dictatorship in Germany?
A No, I did not think of that. The reason was that I did not expect a dictatorship. I thought the NSDAP would do away with parliamentarism as such -
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, there seems to be a question.
DR. LUMMERT: The translation doesn't seem to follow all of the time. The witness just said that he agreed to the NSDAP, because it wanted to do away with the excesses of parliamentarism, that is the bad side of parliamentarism. It was translated that ha agreed to it because parliamentarism was eliminated. There is some difference. May the witness repeat his statement?
THE PRESIDENT: We understand what the witness intended to say or perhaps did say was that he was interested in seeing that the bad side of what he regarded as the excesses of parliamentarism should be eliminated, not a representative government as such?
DR. LUMMERT: Yes, that is quite right, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that. BY DR. LUMMERT: Chief of the State in these difficult times should deal with the responsibility and that only one man should have the responsibility. Hitler seemed suitable to me at the time for this because of his personal courageous character as the broad masses of the simple regarded him, and, therefore, he was given the opportunity to eliminate the bad idea of class fighting but personally and as a lawyer I fully approved of a legal state and believed that the NSDAP after a sort of revolutionary temporary period would set up a new legal state; the legal state is the opposite of a dictatorship,
Q Witness, what was your opinion on the so-called Jewish question? Jews in the public life of Germany, in the official positions, in the free professions, and so forth, he slowly reduced to a state of a low percentage in proportion with the total of the German population. I also considered it necessary to stop the increase of immigration of Jews from the last, from Poland to Germany, who had come into Germany since 1916 continuously, and had spread anti-Semitism in Germany. These so-called Eastern Jews culturally and in. their appearance were on a much lower level than those Jews who had always been in Germany. But Army measures beyound those which I mentioned, like expulsion, or extermination, I did not desire, nor did I in these and the following years. In my opinion the articles of the Party program of the NSDAP didn't say anything to the contrary.
Q witness, what was your professional career after that. Please give the Tribunal a short and precise description of this?
AAfter April 1933, as I already . mentioned, I worked for a few months without pay with the police in Dortmund, until about the middle of 1933, the inner Ministry of Interior of Prussia informed me that I would be employed in the Information Service in the Police in Dortmund. From that moment on 1 received the usual salary as a chief assessor. During my test time the Chief of the newly founded Prussian Secret State Police Office in Berlin Oberregierungsrate Dieltz came to Schepmann in Dortmund in order to discuss the set up , a Prussian Police Office in Dortmund with him. After this discussion I was called in by Schepmann: he introduced me to Dieltz, and suggested to him that when having terminated my temporary position I should be put in charge of the police Office in Dortmund. Until than, during the test time, he, Schepmann would deal with the business connected with it, because the State Police Office was formed out of Department I-A, the police presidium. When I had finished my tests here in May or June 1944, I was appointed government assessor in the Prussian service of the inner administration and simultaneously was put in charge of the State Police Office, which had just been set up for the government district at Ansberg, with its headquarters in Dortmund.
Dortmund belonged to the district of Ansberg, and in this position I remained until the Fall of 1934. At this time I was called to the Prussian State Police Office in Berlin as government assessor. There my tasks consisted of compiling out of the reports coming is from all over Prussia from the various State Police Offices, a general situational report, which the chief of the Prussian State Police Office handed on to various offices in Prussia, I worked in this office until June 1935. During that time the SA, in which I had not been active in Berlin either, transferred me to the SS. I had the same rank with the 33, SS-Untersturmfuehrer, that is lieutenant. The external reasons for this was that during a social event in Berlin I had come in White tie and tails and Heydrich, who had been present, had criticised this. The new chief of the Prussian State police Office even, and most of the other members of the Secret State Police, had appeared in SS-uniform. He said at the time he expected the people of his office would appear in the same color, and arranged for my transfer from the SA to the SS in the same rank. On. 6 June 1935 I married. In the same month the chief of the State Police Office for the District of Halle, transferred me to Merseburg, on the Sale River. I worked there for over two years. Then in the Fall of 1937 I was appointed chief of the. State Police Office for the District of Hanover, and was transferred to Hanover, and soon after that I became a government councillor. In this position I remained until the war started. In December I was appointed a Senior Government official for Berlin, and I was promoted a senior Government councillor. In this position I was until May 1941. During this month I was transferred as Personal Referendar to the Reich Security Main Office, that is, the RSHA, as it is usually abbreviated, I joined office I. When I had worked in this activity for about one month I was appointed for temporary security police tasks - as they told me at the time, - and was ordered to go to Pretsch on the Elbe River. Sofar as I can remember this was about eight days before the beginning of the Russian campaign had started on 22 June 1941.