total are incorrect. It is contrary to the facts. Exhibit 73, NO-3151, Document Book II-C of the Prosecution. It says that the SK-4-A, according to the situation report No. 86 of 17 September 1941 executed 6584 persons. On the other hand the SK-4-A until 24 August 1941 is supposed to have shot 7152 persons, as the document Exhibit 23, Document NO-3154 shows. This document is contained in Document Book I of the Prosecution, on Page 122 of the German text. It is a situation report No. 80 of 11 September 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: What was that document number again, please?
DR. HEIM: The document quoted here last is Exhibit 23, No-3154. It is a situation report No. 80 of 11 September 1941.
Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness, how do you explain inconsistency shown in the documents according to which, until 24 August 1941 the total figure of executions carried out by the SK-4-a is 7152 persons, while according to a later report of 17 September 1941 it is only 6584? execution figures in the reports. While on the 24th of August, 1941, according to Document 3154, 7152 have been listed as the total figure, the situation report of 17 September,1941, shows the figure 6584, without correcting an obvious mistake.
THE PRESIDENT: Which of these figures do you tell us is correct?
THE WITNESS: Neither of these figures, your Honor. The reason is this, the total figures contain the execution figures of others, of the militia and of other units, and also executions carried out by the SK 4A. All these units took part and all these figures are added up here. This is an addition according to territory and the situation reports mentioned only the total. It is shown there, so many people were shot by the militia, then, on that day the Army shot so many people. At is a situation report covering all the sectors adding all the figures and sent to Group C.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the purpose in pointing out the discrepancy in these figures between the two reports?
THE WITNESS: First of all 7152 are supposed to have been shot, on the 24th of August, by the SK 4A, but on the 17th of September the report says that there were only 6584, that is about three and a half weeks later there is a difference of approximately six to seven hundred.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know there is a difference. I say, what is your purpose in pointing out a discrepancy? You have given us this for some purpose. What is the theory of the discrepancy?
THE WITNESS: What I am trying to say is that the figures mentioned in the documents here could not possibly be correct and that the information is incorrect.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, could one of the figures be correct?
THE WITNESS: No, it cannot be correct, because I have read in the previous documents that for example in Luck 1160 and another 300 and a few others were shot and there it says expressly that police, Army, together shot so and so many, the Ukrainian militia so many. In other words,all the units together achieved this figure.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, do I understand you are attacking the arithmetic of the reports?
THE WITNESS: The addition in itself is not correct. Whether the facts actually were like this I cannot say. It is possible, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
( A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
Q (By Dr. Heim) Witness, before the recess, we stopped with two activity reports which contradicted each other, as you said. You were asked by the President why you drew the attention of the Tribunal to this contradcition. Witness, was it your intention thus to explain that the activity reports submitted by the prosecution do not correspond to the actual executions, or, at least the figures mentioned in the reports? tioned therein. They are not correct themselves. The facts do not correspond to those mentioned here, namely, that SK 4a was competent for these figures. It is the addition of these various units which participated in these incidents.
Q Who was responsible for the reports of Einsatzgruppe C? Group C, Regierungsrat, administrative councillor Dr. Hofmann.
Q Can you comment on Dr. Hofmann's procedure of making reports from your own knowledge? unfair in drafting his reports. He was unfair to the Group Chief and also to the Reich Security Main Office. In the general reports about territories all events were mentioned which concerned executive measures and executions, as far as they were known to the sub-kommandos. These general reports were mentioned by Hofmann as the output, as the accomplishment, as it were, of the Kommandos.
Q What is your opinion as to why Hofmann reported these happenings? power. For this very reason, his reports were untrue and incorrect. His personal ambition and the high figures which he mentioned and the promotion were his leading motives.
on the commander of the RSHA? chief of staff of Einsatzgruppe C. He was actually in charge of Group C and all sub-departments and administrative matters. He was guided by his personal ambition and he was known as a very ambitious person in his attitude and in his aims. He was generally noted as a cunning liar. Dr. Rasch was led by him, whereas it should have been vice versa. Radomyschl? and that was in August 1941. After the order by the higher SS and Police leader about the more severe measures against the Jews became known, this sub-kommando moved further to the last at the front line near the territory of the Waffen SS, which had been assigned to this territory, and which was subordinated and given to the kommando for the combatting of armed bands, and which was active there. It was the territory of Malyn Macarow. The time was the middle of August, 1941.
Q I now refer to Document Book II-A of the prosecution. It is page 93 of the German and it is 86a of the English text. It is Document NO-3149. It is Exhibit 46. It is an Operational Situation Report is for the 9th of September, 1941. It is Operational Report 88. I quote from the third paragraph of page 93, that is the German text, 88 of the English text. It is on page 4 of the original about the middle of the page and it is headed, "Measures in the sphere of the Security Police." I quote.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: It is on page 89 of the English document book.
Q I quote: "On the 6th of October, 1941, the-
THE PRESIDENT: We have September. You read "October."
THE INTERPRETER: It was my mistake, Your Honor. He said the 9th.
Q (By Dr. Heim) On the 6th September 1941, the Kommando 4a carried out a Jewish action in Radomyschl. There, Jews had convened from the entire vicinity.
The Jewish apartments, therefore, were overfilled. On the average 15 people lived in one room. Sanitary conditions, therefore, had become untenable. Every day several Jewish corpses had been taken away from the houses. Food for the Jews as well as for children could not be issued. As a consequence of this increasing danger, contagious diseases existed. Therefore, 1,107 Jews were shot by Kommando 4a and 561 more Jews were shot by the Udrainian militia." That is the end of my quotation. I ask you, Witness, does this report correspond, to the facts?
A I cannot give you my own picture of the circumstances. Rad_ omyschl was was 50 to 60 kilometres east of Shitomir. Therefore, even if this report corresponds to the facts, the competence was in the hands of the local commander or the medical departments of the Army. The spreading of disease in the units of the Army was very prevalent at the time. I myself was suffering from Wolhynian fever at that time.
Q Could you order such an action at all?
A The order for such an action could only be given by AOK/6, the competent Army authorities in agreement with the supreme commander of the AOK/6 and the SS Police Leaders. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, Dr. Heim asked you a question which you did not answer. After he read from the report in question he said to you, "Is this report in agreement with the facts?" Now will you please answer that question put to you by your own counsel? not from my own experience. At a later date I heard a report about conditions in Radomyschl, in which it said that an action by the Higher SS and Police Leaders had been carried out. with the facts? are as described here, whether that was so in individual cases, I don't know.
I know in any case that the action by the Higher SS and Police Leaders was carried out. you, or, at least, you have seen the report. The report is very specific. Your attorney asked you, "Is this report in accordance with the facts?" In reply, you said, first, that you did not know of the situation when it occurred. Later on you learned the facts. Now I ask you, is this report in agreement with the facts? who was in constant contact with the SS and Police Leaders, some epidemics must have occurred and an action did take place.
Q Then there were executions?
A Yes. The Higher SS and Police Leaders carried out an execution. That is correct. The fact that an execution had taken place was confirmed later on. executed because a supply of food for the children was impracticable? 4a?
A No, that was not mentioned to me as a fact. I only heard that a part
Q How many were shot by that Kommando?
A It was never stated exactly. People participated who actually belonged to the Ko mmando North and who at that time were in Radomyschl.
Q How many were shot by Kommando 4a, do you know?
Q How many juveniles were shot by the Ukrainian militia?
A I don't know that either.
Q And how many Jews were overcrowded in the flats?
A I do not know exactly. I did not receive the news.
Q Then you tell us now that you din't know the facts at all, is that right?
A The facts I did not see with my own eyes. I only know -
Q Did you learn of the facts? You told us that someone had related to you what had happened. Now did he mention these items which I just read to you, and which your counsel read to you?
stances, that the Higher Police
Q Now, now, witness, let us be a little specific. I asked you a series of questions. I'll repeat them. First you tell us that you do not know of the facts of your own personal knowledge because you were not there. Now let us agree upon that. Were you there, or not there?
A I wasn't there.
Q Very well. Then you tell us that someone related to you what had happened, is that right?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Yes. Now, did he tell you that 1107 Jewish adults were shot by Commando 4-A?
Q All right. Did he tell you that 561 juveniles were shot by the Ukrainian Militia? living in a room? for the children, was impracticable?
Q Answer that question. Did he tell you this.... that there wasn't enough food for the children?
Q All right. Then you don't know anything about these facts, do you? as that action was carried out in this town which was reported to me by Meier.
you agreed with the facts. Now you tell us that you were not there, and the person who spoke about the episode did not tell you any of the facts which I read from the report. That's right, isn't it? this at all, are you? You cannot tell whether this report is correct or not? later. each item, that Meier had not told you that. So, therefore, you have no knowledge of these facts at all, not even from hearsay; so, therefore, you cannot tell whether this report is correct or not, can you?
A That is quite correct, Mr. President.
Q Yes. All right. Proceed.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, may I draw your attention to the fact that the witness save me the following answer: "From my own, knowledge I can give no picture of the circumstances as they happened." And, putting it in one sentence, he continued: "But if it is based on actual facts, the local commander was responsible."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, naturally, if he said he wasn't there, he knew nothing about it, and he gave no order, his conclusion is that he is not responsible. The point that seems rather strange to me is that you would ask him whether this report agreed with the facts when he tells us that he knew nothing about the facts.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, it becomes evident from the report that allegedly executions were carried out by SK 4-a. I merely wanted to know from the witness whether it corresponds to the facts that these executions were carried out by the SK 4-a.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, I have another question to put to you. Did you, as the commander of SK 4-a, have anything to do with the executions mentioned in this document? authority and the AOK/6 and I have nothing to do with the action and the circumstances as described in the document. I was told about them afterwards. I was told about the participation of a number of men ordered by the local police commander. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Who was in command in the field, of Commando 4-a at this time? in this town - Radomyszl? not actually present in Radomyszl at the time of the date of this document. September 6th?
Q Were they under you?
A Yes, they were subordinated to me; to the Staff 4-a, and to myself, as I was the Commando Leader. BY DR. HEIM: fact that a group of the SK 4-a had participated in this action?
A No, that was not known to me. I only learned that very much later from Sturmbannfuehrer Meier, who was in the office of the Higher Police and SS leader and who, based on these facts, made an examination, an investigation at SK 4-a in Shitomir, for the reason of finding out whether the sub-commando witch was stationed in the northern territory was authorized to get an additional supply from the country itself.
The following event happened. The sub-commando had moved to MalynMacarow, further to the East, in the middle of August - and they had left four people in Radomyszl who kept pigs - which was their so-called fat store - and one day the SS and Police Leader came with his staff, and he established that there were four members of the SK left there, and he ordered them to carry out this action and at the same time he confiscated a few pigs. The report of this officer went to the Higher SS and Police Leader, and he gave them to Meier, and Meier had to ask us about this. And eight or ten days later he made an inquiry into the matter and on that occasion Meier told me that an action had taken place, and three people of yours were used in this action. That is how I found out about this action, but the leader of the sub-commandos did not know anything about it at the time. They only learned later, when - preparing their march to Kiev - they wanted to fetch their sausages and their ham and these were gone.
Q Who carried out the action, generally? regiments of the Higher SS and police leader of the Ukrainian umilitia and a number of men of the SK 4-a, that is, the Part Special Commando North who were stationed at the time in Radomyszl. by the sub-commando independently? when I met the leaders again in Kiev I heard about it because they were very much embittered that the supply had been taken awry. An independent report on the part of the sub-commando was never issued. such an "operational report" had been received by you?
that 1107 men had been executed, I would have asked him: with your 15 men only? He certainly would appeared to be a liar.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not clear to me, Dr. Heim, just what this last exchange was. I understand you asked him - what would he have done if the writer of the report had told him that 1107 Jews had been executed... Was that the question you put to him?
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, I asked him: What would you have done as leader of SK 4-a, and what would you have said, if your sub-commando leader had reported to you to the effect that the sub-commando had carried out shootings of 1107 people?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes; and his reply was that he would have called this man a liar. Yes. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, why would you have celled him a liar? Did you know what the facts were? Did you know how many were killed? were killed? know, I would have asked him .. Where did you got this report from... Who ordered it to you... And I would have said it is impossible that 1107 people were shot in one day by 15 people. would know that 1107 people could not have been shot in the period of time indicated, is that right?
Q You would know that as an expert?
A Yes; according to the order, executive measures issued by the Higher commander, this would have been impossible, that he would have shot 1107 people in one day with 15 people.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
DR. HEIM: I now come back to the document discussed last, which is Document Book II-A of the Prosecution, on page 93, I think it is, page 86 of the English. It is Document NO-3149, Exhibit 46, on page 8 of the original document. It says in the last but one paragraph, the last sentence, that is, the original document, page 8, last paragraph, last sentence.
DR. HOCHWALD: Your Honors, on page 89, third paragraph from the top.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the page we were already on.
DR. HOCHWALD: That is the next page, the sentence following the quotation by Dr. Heim.
THE PRESIDENT: I see.
DR. HEIM: I quote: "Thereby the Sonder-kommando has taken care of a total of 11,328 Jews till 6 September 1941."
BY DR. HEIM: ed in that report? In the proceding document, II_C, Document 3151, Exhibit 73 of the Prosecution, page 32 of the German Book, it says that on the 17th of September that SK 4-a carried out executions of 6,548 people. According to the Operational Situation Report 88, Document 3149, of the 19th of September 1941, according to this report, as I say, the Special Commando 4-a until the 6th of September 1941 executed 11,328 people. This comparison shows very clearly the incorrectness of the Operational Situation Reports, which contradictseach other if we regard then closely.
Q This rapid increase of the numbers -- how can you explain it? The discrepancy between these two reports?
total figure of 7,152 on the 24th of August 1941. The Operational Situation Report of the 17th of September 1941, Document 3151, reports the number 6,584 on this day. The Operational Situation Report of the 19th of September 1941 mentions a total figure of 11,328 on the 6th of September 1941. The figure 11,328 on 6 September 1941 is in no logical connection to the figure 6,584 In the report of the 17th of September 1941... just as little as 11,328 to 7,152 of the 24th of August 1941. Experience tells me that Hofmann as a reporter got a supply of reports from the Army authorities via Sturmbannfuehrer Heier, which he used these figures in his own reports. Apart from these documents, the situation reports of the sub-kommandos were at his disposal, the reports of the commanders of the subcommandos, in which the activities of all units stationed in the territory were reported about. The text of the reports which went to Berlin was in the hands of Hofmann. BY THE PRESIDENT: to the events of September 6th in Radomyszl? Berdichew and sent current reports to Gruppe C because that was his assignment. It was his duty, in fret, to maintain the connection between the Gruppe C leader and the Gruppe, and he currently reported to Hofmann about these general happenings. September 6th?
A Whether Hofmann established this figure, I cannot say. The additionamust have been made in Berlin. Hofmann will have reported for the territory, saying that in his particular tine so and so many executions were carried out. Under this particular unit the EK 5, the SK 4-b, or SK 4-a, and in my opinion these were added as being within the territory.
on September 6, 1941? How many men were in that sub-commando? four men -
Q How many?
A Four men.... four men.....
A No; the entire sub-commando had only 15 State police and SD men of the SK 4-a. executed in one day, you said that 15 men could not do it. So there were 15 men in the operation?
A That's correct. The Kommando was operated by four men in Radomyszl and the others were in the front line division in MalynMacarow. There was a distance between these units of 40 or 50 kilometers. That was the only independent Kommando which they had, which the officer of the Higher Police and SS leader had found somewhere. executed 1107 persons, you said you would have called him a liar because 15 men could not have executed that many. That is what I understood you to say. one leader.
Q But 15 men could not have executed that many in one day?
Q How much time is required for an execution? the Supreme Commander was, two rifles to one person, one firing squad; and if I now think about it, for a short while, and as I experienced myself in Sokal when twice approximately 30 men were shot. The whole duration of the leading in of the prisoners - it takes about 10 minutes.
If I then work it out mathematically, it means that in an hour six squads are active, and if I think about the firing duration, I begin to think that it is impossible that this could be carried out
Q Well, I don't see where it is so incredible. Suppose that 1107 men were taken by trucks cut into the woods, or into a field.... that would only require one operation. You have them out there. Then they are lined up. You say there are 15 men in the shooting party, and two rifles to a person.... that would give you on the average of 71/2 per shooting... In order to work this out without too much complication, we will say seven to a shooting. With 100 shootings you would have disposed of 700 people, wouldn't you?
Q Yes. All right. And now, how much tine is required to lead out seven men and to shoot them down? That certainly wouldn't take more then four or five minutes, at most, would it?
A That would take ten minutes, certainly... to line up, to lead in, and line up the prisoners. To make the firing squad ready, to put down rifles, to take them up.... the carrying away of the corpses to the graves, and the leading in of the further seven men. all, would be 42.
an hour would be 42? day, this was in the month of September, when you had plenty of day light, you would have 15 or 16 hours of daylight, and if they were operating continuously 700 or 800 could have been killed in one day.
A Your Honor, no kommando can stand up to this. If a kommando works perhaps an hour it is enough and it cannot be put to shooting people all of the time, that is too much.
Q Well then how many could have been executed in one day normally? What number would you have regarede as not being subject to criticism or as being an exaggeration? men and each shooting took about an hour, and afterwards their nerves were in a very bad state and you could not have used these people again the same day, one would have had to put up many more kommandos if you wish 1100 people to be shot in one day, that is impossible, incredible. on day, you wouldn't have called him a liar, would you?
A No, one wouldn't do that. I knew my men. category of a credible or veracious person? concerned, you must have a unit with a special guards and a special unit which has no other assignment than shooting and for the guarding of corpses of 200 people, there must be other guards, there must be other units.
Q Did you say "guarding the corpses?" somewhere, they had to be guarded.
Q Why did you have to guard the corpses?
Q Oh, I understood you to say you had to guard the corpses. Very well, proceed Dr. Heim. BY DR. HEIM: mentioned, are these executions mainly Jews, if that report is correct at all? Jews. text, as the document Exhibit 81, document 3146, in the English document book it is on page 62. It is operational situation report No. 94 of the 25 September 1941, on page 69 of the German copy, page 14 of the original, approximately at the beginning of the page 14 of the original copy, under No. I, it says and I quote:
"The group staff is still at Nowa Ukrainka. After the fall of Kiev, headquarters will be shifted to that place. Sonderkommanda 4a is still in Shitomir; Teilkommandos at Radomysihl and Bialacerkiew. Other Kommandos are deployed in the area of Malin-Macharow, Korosten and east of Wassilkow."
MR. HOCHWHALD: Your Honors, it is on p ge 64 of the English document book in the middle of the page. There is the Roman numeral I - Locations. BY DR. HEIM:
I continue quoting:
"On the basis of an agreement with the Army High Command it is guaranteed that a Vorauskommando of Eisatzkommando 4a and of the Group staff will march into Kiev with the advance guard after the fall of the town." paragraph and it says:
"Sonderkommando 4a has now surpassed the number of 15,000 executions."
15,000. Did this Sonderkommanda 4a carry out any further assignments in that section there? these few days. According to my knowledge document 3149 of 19 September 1941 mentioned the number, 11328, document 3146, however of the 25 September mentions the number over 15,000. These two figures show a difference of 3672 people. Assignments of these measures in the period mentioned were not carried out and were not participated in by any of the SK 4a.
Q The stations and garrisons mentioned in the document Ex. 81 with regard to SK 4A are they correct? commando was at Makarow, the Southern subcommando was in a sector near Wassilkow with troops in Kopastow. That was in the vicinity of Wassickow. The orderly room remained in Shitomir until October 1941. The subcommando 4a was not stationed in Korosten, but the interrogators had carried out interrogations on the orders of the higher SS and police leaders. The locations Korosten and Radomyszl are not correct, for this period. lation which just occurred. The witness said the orderly room of SK 4a remained until the march of 17 September 1941 in Shitomir. I think the word October was mentioned. SK 4a had sent an advance commando to Kiev, who gave the order to send the mentioned advance Kommandos of the SK 4A to Kiev? and I received an order from the group because only special units which were agreed upon beforehand were allowed to enter Kiev.
Q Will you give us further details about the march towards Kiev?
direction northeast to Macharow with its special advance units. The south commando, however, was ordered to march together with the advance commando Haefner and together with the 29th Army Corps to Kiev, from the territory around Wassilkow. The orderly room of the SK 4a with the 8 or 10 men who were left there with the kitchen machinery and the vehicle repair shops and with the Ukrainian personnel marched on the 17 September 1941 in the direction of Kiev from Shitomir, on a detour road in the north. The garrison of the AOK 6 was given the opporutnity to contact the staff officers of the army group again, and on the same day Paltawa has been taken by German troops.
Q When did you reach Kiev yourself? I reached ths suburb of Kiev and I met the Commander Haefner and on the 24 of September 1941 I reached Kiev itself .
Q When did the individual subkommandos of the SK A4 reach Kiev? that is about 8 or 10 men under Haefner, also the South subkommando under Jantzen, the North Kommando, and the Waffen SS from the Northern territory reached Kiev on the 25 September.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Heim, do you think we might suspend at this point?
DR. HEIM: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess - do you have something, Dr. Ficht?
DR. FICHT: For the Defendant Biberstein: tomorrow afternoon's session because he has to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Biberstein will be excused from attendance in Court tomorrow afternoon.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 29 October 1947)