Q. Now, were you later through official correspondence or through reports of your kommando informed that that actual order was given?
A. Of course, in writing or orally if the command leader considered it necessary that I should knew about this event.
Q. Then yourinformation did not come from a copy of that order sent to you through official channels, but through the report of your kammando leader?
A. In that case, if the Army did not give a written order, only that way of course. If they gave a written order, on the whole they would have given me a copy.
Q. Then you obtained your knowledge of this type of orders from a report submitted to you by your kommando leader?
A. Yes.
Q. General, was it the task of the liaison officer of the different units of the Einsatsgruppen to transmit such orders?
A. I believe I must ask a preliminary question. By liaison officer you mean the officer who was in the staff of the Army?
Q. Yes.
A. In the document book such an occurrence is mentioned, the case with Romanenko. There, the document shows that the liaison officer got an order from the Commander-in-Chief and gave it to the commando itself immediately. This shows that the command wasin the place where the Commander-in-Chief was, while I was with the stuff of the Einsatzgruppenabout two hundred kilimeters to the west. Therefore, if the Commander-in-Chief wanted to hand something to a command, he could easily give such instructions to the liaison officer.
MR. WALTON: Now I shall have to avail myself of the privilege of forgetting one or two questions. Your Honor, I should like to draw the witness's attention bact to some moments ago when I was asking him about who had the authority to make selections for executions. It is entirely out of the context now, but my attention has been called to it. I ask I ask permission to go back and ask him.
THE PRESIDENT: I recall that you did go over that subject, but there is no reason why you can't go back to it.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) There is one class which I forgot to ask who made the selection. General, who made the selection of Communist and Soviet officials for execution?
A. The procedure was that certain persons were arrested and these persons were examined and were taken to be examined, as is usual, by the police. The interrogating officer, mostly together with the kommando keader, determined the result of the examination, and with that they determined whether the man endangered the security, as the result of the examination, or whether he did not, and they passed a judgment on this person.
Q. It usually turned out, did it not, that a member of the Communist Party and a Soviet official of the Communist Party or of the civil administration were considered a definite threat to the security of the German armed forces?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, in carrying out the procedure which you have just indicated, I assume that in many, if not all of the towns, that you would find yourself liquidating the governing authorities, the mayors, the councils, etc., because naturally they would be members of the Communist Party, is that true?
THE WITNESS: Insofar as I know the conditions in the cities or districts where the Einsatzkommandos entered, there was no administration any more, but the leading personalities had escaped or were hidden.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) General, how were the condemned people assembled for an execution?
A. In detail I cannot describe that.
Q. I believe you stated in the matter of the Jews the registration through the Council of Elders stated who were the Jews. Now, if it was determined that so many would be executed, were the Council of Elders instructed to assemble so many people?
A. To assemble the people, yes.
Q. Now, was there any pretext given, either by the kommando leader or by the Jewish Council of Elders, to get these people to assemble?
A. Yes, for example, on the resettlement question.
Q. They were told that they had to move or they would be moved to a place for resettlement, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now then, what disposition was made of these people after they had assembled in the market square or at the place designated?
A. It was tried, for example, to compare whether registration lists were the same as the persons present. The persons were then assembled and then were taken to be executed.
Q. Were they sometimes marched to the place of execution?
A. No they were taken there by trucks. I just described how in Simferopol the Army gave trucks for this purpose.
THE PRESIDENT: Did the Council of Jewish Elders know what was the real purpose of the demanding of this list of the Jews?
THE WITNESS: Certainly not in my Einstazgruppe.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, after the first contingent had been marched away or transported away, was it not then very obvious the purpose of the obtaining of this list?
THE WITNESS: In a city the Jews were then assembled all at once, at one time, for example in barracks or in a large school or in a factory site.
THE PRESIDENT: Do I understand then that no executions took place until the Council of Jewish Elders had completed their work of making up the lists?
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) Now, did you have any Army directives or any orders stating the minimum distances from Army headquarters where these people could be executed?
A. In the case of Simferopol the Army decreed that shootings should take place at a certain distance from the city. The same occurred at Nikolajev.
Q. By certain distance do you mean a certain distance from the headquarters or from the Army installation or from the city itself?
A. In Simferopol from the city; in Nikolajev from the headquarters.
Q. Now, what was the general method used in execution?
A. Only one method wasused by me. That was the military manner.
Q. Am I to infer from that execution by shooting?
A. Yes.
Q. In what position were these victims shot?
A. Standing up or kneeling.
Q. What disposition was made of the corpses of the executed victims?
A. They were buried in that same place. The kammandos, who carried out the executions, had to prepare the burying so that no signs of the executions could be seen afterwards.
Q. What was done with the personal property of the persons executed, General?
A. The personal property was confiscated. The valuables, according to orders, were given to the Reich Ministry of Finance or rather to the Reichsbank. The personal property was at the disposal of the local kommando and the city, except for exceptions in Simferopol where the Army was assigned a group of the National Socialist Peoples' Welfare Organization who took care of the textile items.
Q. Were all the victims, including the men, the women and the children, executed in the same way?
A. Until the spring of '42, when by Himmler's order it was determined that women and children be killed by gassing in gas vans. Your Honor, I ask to make a remark about a question in yesterday's examination.
I think a mistake arose to the effect that Your Honor asked me whether from the reports from the kommandos the fact that children were shot could be seen. Should I have answered to the effect that this opinion was confirmed, that would be wrong. My confirmation in the IMT that men, women and children are contained in the figures is merely a conclusion from the fact that Jewish men women, and children were to be shot. In the reports which came from the Kommandos no such difference was made. Actually I do not remember any report where children - or figures of children - are mentioned. I repeat, the statement, on which I confirm, was a conclusion I came to following the order.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand then that a report indicating that 5,000 Jews had been killed would not specify so many children, so many women, but just 5,000 persons?
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) Let me refresh any memory, General, please. I believe you stated in answer to the last question that executions were entirely in the form of shootings until the spring of '42 when you received an order to have women and children executed by gas vans, am sorry I missed your statement as to where this order originated, or from whence this order came.
A. The order of the gas vans came from Himmler immediagely and was given to special units who had these gas vans.
Q. These units who had charge of the operation and the maintenance of the gas vans stayed with the vans all the time?
A. Yes, I only saw it myself for a short time because it occurred shortly before I resigned, but the drivers remained there while the officer who had come along originally left later on, but the reason for this was mainly that the vans were refused by the kommando leaders, and I was not prepared to force the kommando leaders to use these vans. The vans were practically not used.
Q. General, have you ever seen yourself a gas van?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you give a short description of the physical appearance of a gas van to the Tribunal?
A. It is an ordinary truck just like a box car. It looks like that, like a closed truck.
Q. No windows in the gas van?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q There were no windows?
A. It is possible.
Q. The back of the gas van, did it have a thick door which led into the interior of the gas van?
A. Of course.
Q. And this door was narrow where only one person could enter at a time?
A. No, I believe it was an ordinary door as any other truck has it.
Q. Now were the people selected for execution induced to enter these vans?
A. One could not see from the van what purpose it had, and the people were told that they were being moved, and therefore they entered without hisitation.
Q. The same information was given them that they would be moved for purposes of resettlement?
A. Yes.
Q. General, could you estimate how many persons could be accommodated at one time in these vans?
A. There were large vans and small vans. The small one might have taken fifteen persons and the large one thirty.
Q. Did you ever learn how long it would take to execute persons by the use of these lathal gas vans after they were subjected to gas?
A. As far as I remember about ten minutes.
Q. Did all of your kommandos use these vans?
A. No, because there were more kommandos than vans. Apart from that one van was no good because they had come from Berlin. One van was sent to Taganrog immediately without my seeing it and never came back, and the other two vans remained in Simferopol.
Q. Did Sonderkommando 10-A ever use one of these vans?
A. I already said that one van was sent to command 10-A immediately.
Q. I apologize then. I missed it. Did 10-B ever use one of these vans?
A. No, I am not sure whether they did use it. I cannot swear to it, but I don't think so
Q. I accept your answers as the best of your recollection and belief. Did Sonderkommando 11-A use one?
A. No, as I said, the two vans were in Simferopol.
Q. 11-B, did it ever use one?
A. 11-B will have used it I think
Q. And Einsatzkommando 12, do you recollect it ever had one?
A. No, they certainly did not have one.
Q. Now many people do you estimate - I am sure that you do not remember the exact number, but how many people do you estimate were executed by these vans by Einsatzgrppe D?
A. Please save my mentioning these figures because I don't know anything about 10-A and concerning 11-B the van may have been used two or three times, I an not sure. I myself hardly saw the van, but only the first time, together with the physician, I had a look that the people died without any difficulties, and then I must have left. I don't know whether it was used again.
Q. Then some people were executed by means of the gas vans by your subkommandos?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the purpose-
A. Not by myself.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) By your units.
A. Not by myself.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you always have a physician with you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And what was the immediate purpose of the services of this physician?
THE WITNESS: He was unit physician really, but I also used him, of course, for such purposes as expert.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. But his primary purpose was to supervise the health of your men?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Walton) General, when you were on direct examination you stated, and I quote your own words. "The Army left it to me to deal with the political situation in the Crimea." Was the task of cleaning the Crimea of Jews, gypsies and above all Communists considered a political task?
A. No, If I talked of a political task here, among the various groups of the populations it could be found, for example, the difference between the Tartars and the Ukrainians, or those from Creat Russia and the Ukraineians, to set up administrations of small localities. For example, if in a parish there were different groups of populations, to see to it that when the mayor was appointed a person was taken who was appropriate to the numbers of the population under him.
Q. Then the executions were solely a security task and the tasks which you have outlines in your previous answer were the general political tasks
A. Yes.
MR. WALTON: May it please the Tribunal, I wish no question now the witness on certain of the documents in the Prosecution's book. This is the end of a phase of. my cross-examination. If the Tribunal so wishes to have the recess at this time, I think it is proper as far as my examination is concerned.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Just before we recess I would like to state this to Defense Counsel. I presume that some of you will want to present documents. I heartily recommend that you begin to assemble those documents immediately. There is a great problem, as you know, here, in the palace of Justice in the matter of translating documents and then getting them properly mimeographed, COURT IIA CASE 9 and if you wait until your client is about to take the stand to busy yourself in the preparation of these socalled document books we will find ourselves in such a state of congestion that it will be impossible to get the books out in time.
So I ask you please to get started at once on whatever documents you intend to produce.
(A recess was taken).
Court No. II-A, Case No. 9.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. RIEDIGER (Attorney for the Defendant Haensch): Mr. President, I ask that the Defendant Haensch be excused from the sessions on Thursday and Friday, since the time is approaching for the preparation of his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Haensch will be excused from attendance in court on Thursday and Friday in accordance with the request made by his counsel.
Yes, Mr. Walton.
MR. WALTON: General, there are about three or four questions which I overlooked concerning executions. I desire, at this time, to ask them and then I expect to leave this subject for good and all. BY MR. WALTON: called for the future execution of women and children by this means. Do you know why this change was made from the usual method of shooting? lieve the moral strain on these men who were actually detailed to execute women and children. Now you have stated that their mechanical performance was not of the best and this gave you the opportunity to use a van as little as possible, is that not right.
A No, that is a mistaken interpretation. These two things differ. If the gas wagon was mechanically faulty it certainly was not used. It was not used even if it was in order, because for the men the moral strain was greater in killing people by gas vans than by shooting. vans, the usual method of shooting was employed? page 3 of the English, page 5 of the German, and this is Document NO-2661, Court No. II-A, Case No. 9.being Prosecution Exhibit 149.
Under the paragraph headed, and I quote, "Jews", which is found on pages 9 and 10 of the English, I am not familiar with the page in the German, this is stated, and I quote, "The solution of the Jewish problem which can be considered as almost solved and settled in the Ostland, continues," -- which is underscored, -- "in the remaining occupied territories of the East." -- "Of the East" is underscored -- Still quoting: "The concentration of Jews in Ghettos has generally been carried out." -- That sentence is underscored -- Still quoting: "Again and again the Jews who do not obey the official orders are seized and shot. In order" -
15 Oct 1947_M_MSD_9_1_Biolsi (Lea)
MR. WALTON: Shall I continue, your Honors? Have you found it?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you may continue.
MR. WALTON: Still quoting: "In order to avoid the spreading of the danger of epidemics, shootings of Jews became necessary at different occasions" End of quotation.
General, are to presume that the term "Ostland" refers to the Baltic countries? other territories occupied by Einsatzgruppen? gruppe at all, but in March 1942 -- this is a report of March 1942, in this case from the occupied civil areas --for example, the Eastland was not an area of Einsatzgruppe in this time. territories of the East?
A Certainly not in some of these areas. Einsatzgruppe D, during this time - from the 1st to the 28th of February - which is the time of the report, was in the crimea, and in Melitopol and in Taganrog. continuing the solution of the Jewish problem in the Eastern territory which it occupied?
A Yes, but from the terminology "herding into ghettos", this does mean that an area of the Einsatzgruppe D cannot be for, at that time, there were certainly no ghettos in the area of Einsatzgruppe D. classes of the Russian population which threatened the security of the German forces, beginning with the class you considered most dangerous to security?
A I don't think I over undertook to make such qualification. If you had asked me at that time whom I considered most dangerous I 15 Oct 1947_M_MSD_9_2-Biolsi (Lea) Would certainly have mentioned the political commissars or the political functionaries -- independently from the racial group of-to which they belonged.
Q And who was the next most dangerous class, in your opinion?
A I don't want to make any more classification. killing of the insane was handed you. an execution of insane persons -- naming the time and place, approximately.
A Noo not even approximately. I only remember one locality, one building, but I cannot give you the village, or the town, or the time. After such an order I inspected these matters myself in order to be able to give respective reports to the army and then I refused to do it.
Q You don't recall the approximate number of people who were liquidated at this time?
A No, I don't.
Q Now, let's turn our attention to Document Book II_A, page 124 in the English, page 138 in the German, which is Document No_3233, and is Prosecution Exhibit 54. On pages 126 and 127 of the English Document Book this quotation is found:
"The removal of asocial elements led to the fact that 800 gypsies and insane people were rendered harmless."
And on page 127 this quotation appears:
"During the period covered by the report, 2,010 people were shot, among these there were 678 Jews, 359 Communist officials, 153 partisans, and 810 asocial people, gypsies, insane people, and saboteurs."
Do you follow?
15 Oct 1947_M_MSD_9_3_Biolsi (Lea) Karasubasar. In the last paragraph of this excerpt it says that among the 810 asocial people, gypsies, insane people and saboteurs were liquidated. Does this not mean that only 10 of this number met death as saboteurs, because they offered any threat to the military security of the German forces? the expression, "saboteurs" means whether this number contains a number of people who endangered the security of the German forces by sabotage. And were shot for that reason.
A No; in the first paragraph I have quoted it says that 800 of a certain class of people were executed. Then, in the second quotation it says 810 -- that is different from 800--asocial, gypsies, insane people and saboteurs -- being a difference of 10 people between the first figure and the second figure. Now, can we assume that within this larger number only 10 people were saboteurs?
A I have already commented on this document. Such an assumption would be impossible. I believe that the reports were mixed up here. I just said that south of Karasubasar such a possibility did not even exist, In reality it could not exist.
Q Now, let us turn to Document Book III_D, again on page 11 of the English, page 12 of the German, Document NOKW_604, which is Prosecution Exhibit 150. Do you recognize this report, General?
Q Do you consider this an authentic report? Romanenko-- I am soory, I mis-stated the question. This is a report prepared by Commando 11_a on the case of Wladimir Romanenko, suspected of sabotage that interfered with Russian workers employed by the German authorities. It goes on to state that the information to Romanenko's 15 Oct 1947_M_MSD_9_4_Biolsi (Lea) sabotage activities proved, on investigation by Commando 11-a, to be erroneous.
Now, General, what was the disposition finally made of Romanenko? I cannot remember the incident at all. It can be gathered from the first two lines, what we have already discussed this morning - that on the 7th of September the Special Commando 11-a, through Sturmbannfuehrer Gemeiner, - he was at the time the liaison officer of the army, etc., the Supreme Commander had ordered the surrender to the Commando and had informed them that he wanted a punishment to be meted out, if possible, by public hanging. As the prosecutor has just stated, the Commando has thoroughly examined this incident and it did not find the charges of the Supreme Commander confirmed in all its details. Therefore, it seriously warned two witnesses who testified against Romanenko. Nevertheless, Romanenko was executed as an insane person. This report is evidently a report of this Special Commando 11-a, again via the liaison officer, direct to the Army headquarters. Unfortunately, I don't known what led the Special Commando 11-a to act as it did.
Q Just from the report, isn't it true that Romanenko offered no threat to military, security, -- did he? order from the army to punish Romanenko by hanging him publicly. what army gave that order?
A That must have been on the 10th of September; and it must have been the Supreme Commander, - either Manstein or still Schobertbut I would assume that at that time probably Manstein was there already; but I cannot be sure.
Q. Now, let us turn to Document Book II-C, page 42 of the English, and 49 of the German, being Document NO-3137, which is Prosecution Exhibit 76. Now, there is a paragraph which reads as follows, and I quote:
"The Commandos continued the liberation of the area from Jews and Communist elements. In the period covered by the report the towns of Nikolajev and Cherson in particular were freed of Jews and remaining officials there were appropriately treated. From 16 until 30 September, 22,467 Jews and Communists were executed. Total number, 35,782. Investigations again showed that, everywhere, the high Communist officials had be-taken themselves to safety. It was, foremostly, leading partisans or leaders of sabotage detachments who were seized."
General, did you follow the quotation?
A. Yes.
Q. Was not the headquarters of your Einsatzgruppe D in Nikolajev at the date of that report?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. From memory, can you tell how far Cherson was from Nikolajev?
A. About 80 kilometers.
Q. Your headquarters were in Nikolajev some months, were they not?
A. That is right.
Q. Can you give an estimate as to how many Jews lived in these two cities?
A. I have already commented on this in my direct examination. According to my estimate there were about 5,000 Jews in each of these cities.
Q. Now, what did you mean when you reported to Berlin that a city or an area was freed of Jews?
A. That there were no more Jews in those areas.
Q. Where were the former Jewish inhabitants of these places?
A. The Jewish inhabitants had been killed.
Q. When a report stated, and I quote: ".. and the remaining officials were appropriately treated." --what, exactly, is meant by the term "appropriately treated"?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I may call your attention to the fact that you may not assume that this is my text. This is a text from Berlin, and the interpretation such as you would like to have I cannot give you to this text. For if we think back to this time the first sentence already is incorrect, that the territory was freed of Jews, for this was at the time when the area was completely untouched as far as ridding it of Jews is concerned, and only later did Himmler arrive and ordered the executions of these craftsmen. The first sentence, therefore, would be incorrect, and therefore, I ask you not to have me interpret this word for word because this would be an incorrect interpretation. I have already said in direct examination that this figure especially cannot be correct under any circumstances. Neither the 22,000 nor the total number of 35,000.
Q. From the general language of these reports from Berlin -- which I agree with you is not your language -can we assume that "appropriately treated" is a synonym, or another word for liquidation?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. General, last Wednesday you commented on Book II-D, page 51 of the English, page 57 of the German, which is Document No-3148, and is Prosecution Exhibit 95; and also the next document which is in the same book, page 52 of the English, and page 58 of the German. This latter COURT II-A CASE IX document is NO-3147. Now, by comparison of the two Communists executed, and both of them give the same total of 13,315.
Does not that appear on both documents?
A. No, in the first document the number 17,350 appears as the total number. And in the second, 13,315. But even if I say that the "7" is a typographical error and that it should be "13" then this is the best proof that here in two separate operational reports, one on the 20th and one on the 26 of September, the same report was given.
Q. Now, let me reach what I am trying to get at. Can it be possible that this report of the 26th of September, if the numbers agree, as they do in my book but don't in yours -- if the numbers agreed, would not the report of the 26th of September be a confirmation of the report already sent forward on the 20th of September?
A. That is absolutely possible.
Q. Now, in the event, we will say, if Berlin received any additional reports of executions during the week 20 to 26 September, was it customary for the RSHA to merely repeat the facts contained in the report preceding to show that the tactical situation with regard to Einsatzgruppe D had not changed?
A. well, usually if nothing happened it was not customary to copy the same report over again, but you would just say that there is no report. Therefore, this is completely incomprehensible to me.
Q. General, as a matter of fact the execution of Jews and Communists happened more frequently during the first part of the campaign than later, in 1942, did it not?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. And this was because Einsatzgruppe D encountered COURT II-A CASE IX more of these classes of people in August and September 1941 than it did in February and March 1942, isn't that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Now, one report states that an Einsatzgruppe C -not your Einsatzgruppe -- executed 35,000 people in two days. Is it not true that all units of an Einsatzgruppe, with the active assistance of police units attached to them and Wehrmacht units upon which they should call for assistance, could have executed such a large number of people in such a short time.
A. No, I consider it completely out of the question.
Q. Let me go into that a little further. Police Battalion No. 9 was a police battalion on which you could call, is that correct?
A. No, no.
Q. What was the police battalion-
A. If the police battalion which had been attached to the Einsatzgruppe in the East had the number "9, then this was the original battalion which, by order of Himmler, was distributed among the various Einsatzgruppen, without battalion staff, that is, there was no more battalion, but there were four companies, and these four companies were distributed among the four Einsatzgruppen. Each company to each Einsatzgruppen. In my Einsatzgruppe the company was completely dissolved. That is to say, the various Einsatzkommandos got one or two plattons, or a half platoon, from this unit. For it was attempted to use these police units for guard purposes for the Einsatzgruppen. It may be that another Einsatzgruppe handled this differently. For example, kept the company together. But a company was put at my disposal which was no longer a company because it was distributed among the entire area of 400 kilometers.