It is not necessary that I repeat my previous testimony to that effect. In any case I certify and I confirm that I had nothing to do with this civilian internment camp and with other executions, that, as I say, I had nothing to do with them. On the 7th of July, after this execution, I proceeded from Minsk in the direction of Polosk. which are in Blume Document No. 6 on Pages 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, and 72 of the document book. I particularly want to draw the Tribunal's attention to the following points. On the bottom of Page 4, it is 64, Nebe reports about his arrival in Minsk on the 5th of July. On Page 66 in the center it shows that the staff of Einsatzgruppe B, which was at that time still called "C", had been in Minsk from the 6th of July. The other reports of events of the following pages show that the Einsatzgruppe B remained in Minsk. The reports of events of the 13th of July which were quoted and cited by the Prosecution on Page 69, blue II-A, speak expressly of the Einsatzgruppe. The Special Kommando 7-A, according to the wording of this report, is not concerned. Finally the execution, which was carried out by Foltes on the order of Nebe, is also mentioned. In the preceding report of the 12th of July, the sentences I mean are red II-A on Page 68. On Page 68 the burning of houses is mentioned, and it says there, I quote, "a number of Jews were liquidated". According to the last reports of the Einsatzgruppe B, wooden houses in the western part of Minsk were set afire. It is at the bottom of Page 68 until the top of Page 69. As the Defendant Blume left Minsk after the execution, in which, as he says himself, 50 to 60 people were shot, he has nothing to do with the further executions which took place. These executions were ordered by the Staff of Einsatzgruppe B, and Einsatzgruppe B made use of the Secret Police for the carrying out of the executions.
ed there a number of weeks. It also took over the carrying out of executions in Minsk. I shall come hack to this Blue 5b later on. This point also concerns the town of Minsk. The points 2a and 5b belong together. 117, which was mentioned by the prosecution. It is in the Bullish Book on page 175, in the German Book on page 162. The sentences that are concerned here are in Blume Document No. 6, page 13. This is no. 78. It is marked blue and it is marked 3. There it says that 27 Jews who had not appeared nor turned up for work were shot in the streets of Witebsk in order to deter other people, and than an extensive execution would be carried out. It is on page 78, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
Q. Witness, can you comment on this?
A. In my former testimony I have already declared that I ordered an execution at Witebsk by order of Nebe and I also gave details about this; especially, that I ordered Foltes to carry out the execution and that before the execution ever took place, he had, without my knowledge, shot a number of Jews in the streets of Witebsk, because they had not turned up for work. This operation on the part of Foltes is meant in this report when it says here that 27 Jews were shot who had not reported for work.
DR. LUMMERT: I would like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that the executions which were ordered by the Defendant Blume in Witebsk on the higher order of Nebe are not contained in the reports of events. Only the execution of the 27 Jews is mentioned, which Foltes carried out independently.
I now come to Document NO-2949. It is Exhibit No. 118. It is cited by the prosecution in the English Book, page 157, in the German, page 162. The quotation I am referring to is in Blume Document No. 6 on page 19. It is Document 79. It is marked in blue 4. There are thirty names of localities and villages, and it is said that executions were carried out in these villages.
Q. Witness, may I ask you, have you the Quotation here in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you participate in executions in these mentioned villages or localities?
A. I did not take part in any executions in any of the mentioned localities, with the exception of Witebsk. I have already given testimony referring to this.
Q. At the end of this page 79, it says that Einsatzgruppe D until the 31st of July, 1941, had carried out liquidations of 11,084 people. That is at the bottom of page 79. Witness, what have you to say as to the participation of Sonderkommando 7a and your own participation in the execution of this number of people?
A. The execution carried out by Foltes on orders of Nebe in Minsk concerns 50 to 60 persons; in Witebsk Foltes had these 27 people shot who had not reported for work. The execution ordered by myself on higher orders by Nebe concerned 80 people, about 80 people. I have already said this. If we add these numbers, there about 160. If I add a number of people, a few others which were shot in individual cases, as determined partisans or for sabotage acts, we arrive at the number for the Sonderkommando 7a, that is from July 1941, of about 156 to 170 executed people and I only participated myself in about half of these.
DR. LUMMERT: AS for this point Blue 4, I would like the Tribunal to note that in former reports of events, I have marked red 4 those villages which have been mentioned before these. This red 4 concerns only villages which were not on the record of Sonderkommando 7a. A part of these 30 villages do not appear in former reports of events.
I now come to Document NO-3847, Exhibit No. 58, in Prosecution Document Book, of the English, 157 to 158; in the German book -- I beg your pardon, in the German transcript 163.
This is the report of events of 29 of August. The Quotation is Blume Document No. 6. It is on page 22. It is Document 82. It is marked 5a and 5b, blue. I start with 5b. There it says that in Minsk another 650 people were liquidated in the course of the combine-out action in the civilian prisoners camp.
A. Witness, what can you comment on this?
A. I had nothing to do with this execution. I left Minsk on the 7th of July. This report is dated the 29th of August.
DR. LUMMERT: I think I only have to mention a few more details here. I refer to Red numbers 5b, Document Blume No. 6, page 73, 77, 80, 83 and 84 of the Document Book. Furthermore, I refer to the testimony of the witness and what I said myself concerning this point 2a which also concerns the town of Minsk. I have already mentioned that Einsatzkommando 8 arrived in Minsk in the middle of July and remained there for a number of weeks, as the red numbers indicate, the red numbers 5b, at least, to the end of August, that also in Witebsk the executions of the Jewish intelligentsia were continued.
Q. Witness, what have you to say to this?
A. I have already given testimony as to the executions of Special Kommando 7a in Witebsk. It was the only execution which was ordered by myself on order of Nebe. It took place on the 19th or 20th of July. At the same time I moved and left Witebsk and proceeded in the direction of Smolensk. I had nothing to do with the further executions in Witebsk.
Q. I may refer again to Red Numbers 5a on page 22 and 24 of Blume Document No. 6. It is on page 82 and 84 of the Document Book. They show quite clearly that at that time the Einsatzkommando 9 was stationed in Witebsk. Sonderkommando 7a, however, had left Witebsk five or six weeks before. Finally, I come to Document 2844, which is Exhibit No. 61. It is cited by the prosecution in the English records, page 159 and in German 164.
The quotation I refer to is in Blume Document No. 6 on pages 24 and 25, document book 84 and 85. It is marked Blume 6. Here the total figures are mentioned for Einsatzgruppe D from 20 August 1941, the total executions, that is. The Vorkommando 7a has a figure of 996. Witness, what is your explanation of this figure?
A. For the period until the end of July 1941, I estimate the number of executions carried out by Sonderkommando 7a, according to my best knowledge, at from 156 or 170, as I have already said.
Q. 156 up to 165 --- to 170?
A. If I add for the first event of August until I left Baklanova and went back to Germany, if I add, as I say 10 to 15 people which were executed as determined partisans or arrested saboteurs, and, if furthermore, I include the shooting of 50 to 60 people which Foltes carried out without my knowledge in the first part of August in Welisch, I arrive at a figure of about 230 to 240 people. There are no more. The number 996 I can only explain by the fact that Nebe intentionally gave a wrong and excessive figure, because he did not dare to report that low number to the office in Berlin. I refer to what I have already said about the incorrect way of reporting on the part of Nebe.
DR. LUMMERT: I would like to draw the Tribunal's attention to the fact that the Special Kommando 7a in this report for the first and only time has been called Vorkommando, that is Advance Kommando 7a, or Van Kommando. The figure 996, apparently, even was too low for Nebe and he wanted to invent an execution and he called therefore the Sonderkommando 7a, he called that a Vorkaommando, an advance Kommando. He did the same, as a matter of fact, concerning the Special Kommando 7b. the fact, although it is not a very important point, that the figure 996 covers the period until the 20th of August. Of course, while the Defendant Blume had already given up the command of the Sonderkommando 7a on the 16th or 17th ofAugust and had already left. He had turned it over to Foltes; as the witness has already said, Foltes was very active , and very ruthless, and very brutal; and it is very possible that after the Defendant Blume had been transferred, he added to the figures of executions.
Before I leave the Blume Document No. 6 I would like to draw the Tribunal's attention to the following points. On page 10 of the Blume Document No. 6, it is page 70 of the Document Book, first just underneath the actual center of the page, Nebe reports in the report of the 13th of July, that is NO-2937, I quote:
"In Grodno and Lida, first of all, during the first days only 96 Jews were executed. I gave orders that considerable intensification was to take place there. The activity of all kommandos developed in a satisfactory manner. Above all , liquidations were brought into smooth running order and are being carried out daily at an increased rate. Anyway, the carrying out of the necessary liquidations is guaranteed under any circumstances. " Here we find the favorite word of Nebe, which is "intensification" and he says that in the carrying out of the necessary liquidations, he can guarantee it under any circumstances.
This corresponds to the fact that a few days before this report he forced an execution in Minsk, which Foltes carried out according to the order and which furthermore corresponds to the fact that a few days after the report of the 13th of July, this teletype message to the Defendant Blume forced this execution at Witebsk, which the Defendant Blume has already mentioned.
I now ask the Tribunal to go to the next-to-the-last page. It is page 72 of the Document Book below the center of the page, and it says in the report of the 23rd of July, Iquote: "The town Polosk had been systematically set on fire; all Party and administration buildings are completely destroyed; hardly any population is left. The Einsatzkommando therefore proceeded to Witebsk." That is the end of my quotation. one day in Polosk and left for Witebsk immediately, in order not to be put in the position of having to carry out an execution in Polosk, and that he signed a corresponding report to Nebe from Witebsk, which was slightly exaggerated. The Tribunal will remember that the witness stated that he believed he could justify this small exaggeration and that he could reconcile it completely with his soldier's attitude.
This report of events of the 23rd of July, which I have here is mirrored in the report of the Defendant Blume. again. That is page 74 of the Document Book. There it says that it quotes the same report of the 23rd of July. It is about the center of the page. That is 74. I quote; "The solution of the Jewish problem during the war would, apparently, be impracticable, as , in view of the huge number of Jews, it could only be achieved by a large-scale expatriation. However, measures have been taken by Einsatzgruppe B, whereever it has taken up its work so far. " That is the end of my quotation. temporary measures on assigning Jews to labor, or at least measures which were recommended. The defendant Blume has stated that from Witebsk he sent a report to Nebe concerning the Jewish question in White Ruthenia, in which he tried to effect a change in the actual Fuehrer Order. Nebe compiled his report from this, and it was contained in his reports to Berlin. This becomes evident from the report of events of the 23rd of July, which I just quoted and which I have just summarized. The report of events of the following day, that is, the 24th of July, presents this report again as a special supplement. Book and I quote from the lower part of the page. "In the appendix please find the report of Einsatzgruppe B concerning the Jewish question in the White Ruthenia Settlement Area. " That is the end of my quotation. interesting. I quote from the center of page 76: "From the District of Witebsk Sonderkommando 7b reports in addition that most of the farmers on the collective farms are not working , as they are fighting for directives and instructions. If the peasants are not ruled and if no further directives are issued I think there is a danger of a large part of the harvest being lost.
The Army Group has been urgently requested that the Commissioner for the camp economics issue a directive at this time and approve the dissemination of leaflets by airplanes ." This statement again is based on a report by the Defendant Blume. Last friday, the Defendant Blume talked about his administrative activities at the Loswitha Lake, which was not far from Witebsk and Smolensk, and he mentioned that he had leaflets distributed by air and had other measures taken for sake of the harvest.
If this report speaks of Sonderkommando 7-b it is a mistake. It should read 7a. Special Kommando 7-b never operated in the region beyond Witebsk, but only south of the Dniepr River. It becomes evident from the report of events. This obvious mistake is an example that the reports of events are not always reliable.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Lummert, you say the witness testified to leaflet bombing. I confess to not recalling any such statement by the witness.
DR. LUMMERT: Your Honor, I remember that the witness mentioned this on Friday.
THE PRESIDENT: That he used airplanes to drop leaflets on the population?
DR. LUMMERT: Yes, your Honor. The witness stated that he caused the Army Group to throw leaflet bombs by which the population was requested to continue with harvesting work.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. I think we do now recall it.
DR. LUMMERT: We can now leave Blume document No. 6, and in addition, and as a supplement, I offer Blume Document No. 7 excerpts from the German Army reports of the summer of 1941. They come from the newspaper Voelkischer Beobachter. The purpose of this document is merely to show when the three towns, Wilan, Witebsk and Smolensk fell into German hands: Wila, on the 24th of June; Witebsk on the 11th of July; and Smolensk on the 16th of July 1941. Furthermore, the excerpts show, as far as the town Polosk is concerned, that the fighting in this area took place on the 10th and 11th of July. This shows, and confirms, the statement of the defendant Blume. I would like to have the witness Blume testify to two documents which have been submitted by the Prosecution as evidence against him.
The first is an affidavit of the defendant Steimle. It is in Document B ook III-D of the Prosecution, in the English page 39, in the German 64. Document NO-3842, Exhibit No. 119. The Prosecution has the document in the English record, page 158, in the German 163.
Steimle was the successor of the defendant Blume, as the leader of Sonderkommando 7-a, and in this affidavit he states that the defendant Blume, in White Ruthenia, apart from combatting partisans also had Jews executed, and that from June until September 1941 he -was in charge of Sonderkommando 7a.
Q. (By Dr. Lummbert) Witness, what do you have to say to this?
A. As far as the shooting of Jews is concerned, the affidavit is true because on the order of Nebe I carried out a Jewish operation in Witebsk. I have already given testimony as far as this is concerned. It is incorrect, however, insofar as concerns the time, the period September, because I gave up the command of Sonderkommando 7-a on the 16th or 17th of August. I turned it over to Foltes. Steimle chose September as indicating the exact date, evidently because he himself was entrusted with the command of Sonderkommando 7-a in September 1941. I myself would like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to two other points in the affidavit of the defendant Steimle. First of all, in Document III-B, page 41, in the center. There Steimle says, concerning Blume, I quote:
"Character soft and bureaucratic." Furthermore, I would like to note in the following affidavit, NO-4458 , the same Document Book, III-B, page 44, at the bottom of the page, -I would like, as I say, the Tribunal to note this sentence in which Steimle reports that Nebe told him in October 1941 that the Special Kommando 7a until then had not shot any women and children, but the soft and bureaucractic character" of the defendant Blume means that the defendant Blume tried to avoid, actually avoided, these executions, and that he basically refused to shoot women or children, I shall examine the defendant Steimle in addition to this when he is in the witness stand. page 44, at the bottom.
I now come to the defendant Blume's own affidavit, which is in Document Book I of the Prosecution, in the English it is page 37, in the German page 43, Document No. NO-4145, Exhibit No. 7. This is Document Book I, page 37.
The Prosecution has this affidavit in the English transcript, pages 151 to 152, and in the German pages 157 to 158. The Prosecution says there that this affidavit concerning the executions contains those points which the defendant Blume could not deny. The affidavit is dated 29 June 1947.
Q. (By Dr. Lummert) Witness, may I ask you first... When were you examined? when did Mr. Wartenberg take down the affidavit... Was it on the 28th or 29th of June?
A. On the 28th of June. That was the day before I signed the document.
Q. Witness, Mr. Wartenberg answered my questions explicitly, during the cross examination, that the interrogation was on the 29th of June. Which is the correct date? Perhaps you can give us some details, how your interrogation took place, and how it came about?
A. On the 15th May 1946 I was released from an interment camp as a prisoner of war. Under my right name, I stayed in Bielefeld or in the vicinity approximately one year, and worked on a farm with a farmer. On the 24th of June 1947 I was arrested and I was taken to a prisoner camp, Eselheide, and from there two days later I came to Nuernberg.
Q. Witness, may I interrupt you, and may I ask you... Is it correct that after your arrest in Detmold, and upon your interrogation there you were, as one says, ill-treated and brutally beaten?
A. Yes, that is quite correct. I was beaten by the interrogator in the region of my kidneys, and on the back of my head, and my face, so that I bled, and the traces of it were visible for days.
Q. Is it correct that you tried to commit suicide on two occasions at Eselheide? Did you do that because you felt guilty, or for what other reason?
A. I did not try to commit suicide because I felt guilty, but because my pride had been hurt during the interrogation. If I could have beaten back while I was interrogated probably I would have been shot, because while the interrogator boat me two others held two pistols pointed in my direction.
I did not dare to hit back, because I have five children. But in thinking about this, and the fact that I did not resist when I was ill-treated, and that ill-treatment would probably continue when I was interrogated again-- these thoughts, as I say, I found so unbearable when I was in Eselheide that I decided I would commit suicide. For that purpose I used my bandages, but the bandages tore and therefore the attempts failed.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Where was this? Where did this interrogation take place? Where?
Q When did it occur?
Q What year?
Q And who was it that beat you?
A The interrogator. I was under the impression that it was the authoritative interrogator because he was the man who signed the records.
Q What nationality was he?
Q Was he an officer?
Q Do you know his name? because his name appears in the record of the interrogation.
Q You say he beat you over the kidneys?
Q With what did he strike you?
Q And is that the only place he hit you, in the kidneys? face. He stopped when I began to bleed.
Q Were these very severe cuts on your face?
A My lip opened, it broke open, and I had a wound. It was not severe.
Q Where were you bandaged? What part of your body was bandaged?
A No bandages were necessary. It was only my lip that had burst.
with your bandages.
A No, that is a mistake your Honor. They were bandages for my legs. Leggings.
Q Oh, leggings! I understand. You say two men stood by with a pistol at your head?
A Yes, your Honor; one was in uniform and one was wearing a civilian suit. One was sitting, and the other was standing. while the third struck you with his fists?
Q What were they trying to have you say? during this interrogation I had told the truth, and I said that I had been an officer in the Security Police. That, apparently they had not known until then. In any case, this report caused the perpetrator to beat me and to maltreat me. The interrogation then was over. The man who maltreated me only arrived after the interrogation was over. told your story, then this person who was not even there when the interrogation took place struck you with his fists?
A Yes. This ill treatment had no influence on my statements in my statements in my testimony at this time. against you?
A In any case it happened, I don't know in detail what the reasons for it were. But it must have been -
Q You weren't beaten very badly, were you?
head. I felt it. as the blows landed?
Q Well, you didn't feel any pain after the pummeling had ceased? not been so badly beaten that I could not actually walk, or that I could not answer questions. isn't that about what it was?
A Yes; there was no reason for the wrath
Q I am not trying to justify it, witness ... I am only trying to get at the facts. The reason you tell us this man gave you a punch or two was because he was angry at you. Isn't that what it was? or hatred?
Q You really didn't feel any ill effects of it after the actual striking? You didn't feel any ill affects after it was over, did you?
A Not of a special kind. The general pain one feels... so far as the results were concerned, to permanently disable you?
Q You didn't have to have any medical treatment, did you?
A No. In the camp at Eselheide I immediately reported to the doctor in order to inform him about it, and to show him the burst lip.
Q And did he treat you? happened to you, and made that the basis for a suicide attempt, didn't you? that the psychological pain of the situation moved me very much. and you having been a soldier all those years -- that because of this temporary humiliation in the hands of an enemy that you wanted to commit suicide?
A Your Honor, it was not only one or two blows; it took quite some time.
Q Well, whatever they were, they weren't bad enough to cause you to be hospitalized, or to receive any medical treatment. Now, do you want to tell us that you, a bigstrapping follow who had been through a war, had fought, and encountered all kinds of difficulties, would want to commit suicide just because someone struck you with his fists this ill-treatment, after the interrogation; I was, of course overwhelmed by the fact that when questions were asked as to names of comrades, and I thought that I would be thus put into a forced situation, and I was, afraid of all this. some information which might implicate your comrades. Is that what I understand?
A Yes; I thought I would not be hard enough, perhaps, to bear it in the long run .
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session. BY DR. LUMMERT: attempt to commit suicide and I now ask you were the marks of this attempted suicide still obvious when Mr. Wartenberg interrogated you here in Nuernberg on 28 June? neck which the prison physician saw too. Mr. Wartenberg. Is it correct, in particular, that you would have had to agree to the executions mentioned by you?
A No, that is not correct. At the time I explained to Mr. Wartenberg voluntarily in reply to his questions and without any duress, approximately the same about the executions as I have testified here on the witness stand. He did not make any remonstrations to me which would have caused me to make a confession. The two executions of Minsk and Vitebsk I mentioned on my own accord and have testified this was carried out because of the direct orders and the insistence of Nebe. Herr Wartenberg took this into the record in shorthand. That was on the 28th of June and the following day he came to me with a prepared affidavit and asked me to sign it. When reading through it I found that the affidavit contained mistakes and most of all that they had left out all of that which I had mentioned upon my discharge, in particular, Nebe's orders. When I objected to this Herr Wartenberg told me he had no time to make these additions, I could make a written statement and give to him and state in that written statement everything I wanted to add. For that reason I only confirmed or corrected those things in the prepared, affidavit that was absolutely necessary in order to avoid gross mistakes and the same day, on 29 June, I wrote a letter to Herr Wartenberg and gave it to the guard with the request to put it into the prison box.
