Q When did you hear about this order for the first time? the IMT trial, I heard through the then counsel for the SD, Dr. Gawlik, about the Prosecution's material against the SD, and this was the first opportunity when I became acquainted with the Fuehrer Order. Gypsies and other people, insane people and other people not liked by the Nazi Regime were deliberately killed by the Einsatzgruppen?
A I didn't hear this at any time in this form in which you put it. correct? you were in Russia you never learned that there was a general policy, or a general program to exterminate those people?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I neither heard this in Russia, nor did I hear that later, from the documents which have been submitted against Einsatz Kommando-VI. This morning I said that once in Dnepropetrowsk I heard from the population that the SS and police Leader - - - rather, I heard this from my commanding officer, but I heard from the population that Jews were shot.
Q Did you hear why the Jews were shot? officer told me this was a special operation by the Police.
Q I do not think that you answered my question. I didn't ask you by whom. I am asking you whether you heard why these Jews were shot. Were they shot for the simple reason that they were Jews?
A I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor, and did'nt know it at the time either. I merely knew that Jews were being shot. that they were shot for the reason that they were Jews?
A Not in my opinion, Mr. Prosecutor, because I was an Intelligence-man, and the only duty which I had as an SDExpert was to report any influence the German occupation Forces had on the morale of the population to my superior officer, but it was not my duty to ask my superior, "Colonel, why were these Jews shot?" did you hear about mass executions? Or about executions at all? Dnepropetrowsk.
Q And about other executions? Kriwoirog and Stalino. were a member had as its main task to kill people, is that correct?
A No. Mr. Prosecutor, in my position, in my field of work I could not establish this. I never made the observation that, for example, in a new garrison Jews were put into a Ghetto, or that any other measures were taken against the Jews. the Einsatzkommando VI was about one-hundred sixty to onehundred eighty men strong, is that right?
AAt the beginning, yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
What did they tell you about their activities?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't Speak with my fellow soldiers about this subject. I didn't go to my fellow worker in Department-IV and ask, "What are you doing?" What I heard was the conversations which took place between comrades, but gneerally my activity allowed me little contact with the other man. you were gating with them in the same mess hall, and that you word sleeping in the same quarters, that you shered your offtime with them. You must have known something about their activity?
A Right, Mr. Prosecutor, I confirmed that in my direct examination. executed by the unit of which you were a member?
A Certainly, I did ask them. In the course of the conversation this was quite natural, and down to the last day of my membership in Einsatzkommando VI I was of the opinion that every single case was investigated, and that only guilty people would be convicted and shot.
Q Why did you have this impression? Did you see or were you present at some of these investigations?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, this opinion stems from the conversations which I had with my comrades. It was discussed that Partisans, Saboteurs, Looters, and various other clements who had violated the regulations of the Army would be investigated and convicted. were not able to state from the documents here that there was a general program to kill the Jews. Would you please turn to Document Book II- A, and the quotation is from page 57, Your Honor.
It is Document No. 3445, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 42, the page is 67 I am quoting from, from the top of the document. Here it says very clearly that between the 24th and the 30th of November 274 people were killed, and not less than 226 of those 274 were killed, as the document says, for the simple reason that they were Jews?
A Right, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Do you know about these executions? about these document that I knew nothing about it.
Q How do you explain that you don't know anything about it? The number in your Einsatzkommando was one-hundred sixty to one-hundred eighty men, and most of the men must have killed in those six days two people each, and you have been living among them without knowing a thing, is that what you are going to tell the Tribunal? date and the number are listed there, but not the place.
A Of course, Mr. Prosecutor, the Einsatzkommando VI, always was divided into three or four sub-commandos. I only had to concern myself with information work, and, therefore, I could not know what the commando and its sub-commandos were doing.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hochwald, I don't think you got an answer on your question. I am sorry. I don't think you got an answer to the question which you put. You said that the witness had indicated that even the reports didn't show that Einsatzkommando VI had ever shot any Jews. Then you called his attention to this report. Well, that observation of yours was not commented on, and then you went to something else.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I say something about this. I think there is a mistake here. I didn't understand then Prosecutor to say that I didn't know anything about Jewish executions, but Mr. Hochwald spoke of mass executions.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, did you say, witness, that you didn't know about executions of Jews, nor do the reports show that Einsatzkommando VI executed Jews as Jews, did you make that statement here?
THE WITNESS: Pardon me, Your Honor, that is not the way I wanted to express myself.
THE PRESIDENT: Just what did you say about the reports?
THE WITNESS: The debate started with the question of the Prosecutor, as to whether my knowledge is the only one about mass executions in Dneproptrowsk.
MR. HOCHWALD: I do think you are mistaken,witness. I asked you, when did you learn for the first time that the general policy existed to kill the Jews, and, if I am not mistaken, you answered that "I didn't learn that during all the time I was in Russia, and I didn't learn it later, and even the documents, sofar as Einsatzcommando VI is concerned, do not show that such general policy existed." So I am asking now - - -
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first, let's find out if hc said that. My recollection is he said it in answer to his own counsel's question.
MR. HOCHWALD: He also said it in answer to my question, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, let's find out if he confirmed that; that the reports do not show that Einsatzcommando VI killed Jews because they were Jews.
THE WITNESS: I didn't mean to say that, Your Honor. I think the whole thing can be traced to the mistake that I assume Dr. Hochwald was speaking of mass executions.
MR. HOCHWALD: All right, do you consider the shooting of 226 Jews not a mass execution?
THE WITNESS: Right, right, Mr. Prosecutor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that right, right does not make it it very clear. Your question is put in the negative, and you got two affirmatives, so now we don't know just what really it is. execution?
THE PRESIDENT: All right, suppose we take up from this point, Mr. Hochwald, after recess.
MR. HOCHWALD: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Dr. VOEKEL for the defendant Six: Your Honor, I have to make the request for the defendant Six to be excused tomorrow from the session because I would like to discuss his defense with him.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Six will be excused from attendance in Court all day tomorrow.
DR. VOELKEL: Thank you.
PRESIDENT: You are welcome. BY DR. HOCHWALD:
Q. May it please the Tribunal, before the recess Herr Graf spoke about the document in Document Book II-A on page 67, your Honors, No-3405. It is Prosecution Exhibit 42. If you look farther into this document you will see that up to 12 November 1941 Einsatzkommando-6 shot 800 insane people. What do you know about the shooting of these 800 people?
A. I do not know anything about this shooting.
Q. Nothing at all. Herr Graf, what was your rank at that time?
A. I was an NCO.
Q. You were an NCO in this outfit. You had quite an important position. You are an intelligent person, you are not blind, you are not deaf, people are killed in your presence by the thousands. Nevertheless, you don't know a thing. Is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I really do not know anything about the shooting of these persons.
Q. About how many executions did you know in all the time you were in Russia?
A. As I said this morning I learned from my comrades that people were arrested, interrogated, and shot, but I never learned any figure.
Q. You have never asked "How many did you shoot?" "How many execution do you carry out regularly, or usually?" You have never asked that?
A. That was not my task.
Q. I know that it was not your task but it doesn't stand to reason, Herr Graf.
An execution is not an everyday thing in a soldier's life. It's only in an executioner's life an everyday thing. You were surrounded by these executions. You heard by the population, from the population, about these executions, and you are still maintaining here as a witness that you did not know the number, you did not know the reason, and you did not know anything about these executions. That is what you are going to tell the Tribunal here?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the state of affairs was this. First, executions were not publicly carried out. Secondly, those persons who had orders to deal with these matters resented to discuss these matters. And, I had no reason whatsoever to ask my comrades about this and I never did so, because after all, as you quite rightly put it, an execution is not a very agreeable matter.
Q. In other words, now you want to tell us that you did not ask as you did not want to know - you just did not want to know what was going on.
A. That is not what I wanted to say. But as an NCO in the position I held I merely dealt with my own SD tasks and I did not bother about the tasks of Department 4.
Q. But you yourself have volunteered this statement, that from the part of the population you had been informed about these executions which were carried out in Dnjepropetrowsk.
A. Yes.
Q. You know that by EK-6 people were executed. It's impossible, Herr Graf, that you knew that but refused to know on the other hand how many and why the people were executed. I do know that you did not know possible, the number 226 Jews which appears in the document, but you must have known by then that approximately 200 Jews were shot by your Kommando. You must have known that approximately 800 insane were shot by your Kommando. This is not 2, this is not 1, these certainly are mass executions.
with my former way of putting it I did not express myself very well. What I really wanted to say was that it does not become evident from the documents when - or at least it does become evident when, but not where these executions took place. In this document, for instance, it only says that those eight hundred people were shot in the lunatic asylum Igrin, but the remaining 274 shootings, I do not know, whether those were carried out in Dnjepropetrowsk or Vasilkowska, or were they carried out by another subkommando of EK 4?
Q This perfecty correct. I do not want to say that I do know that these people were killed in Dnjepropetrowsk, but they were killed by your unit. This unit was a small unit, 160 to 180 men, as you said yourself. You have been living with these people for one and a half years. The record is full of documents which show that executions were carried out by Einsatzkommando 6, not only once, not only twice, but many times, and I ask you now, how often did you hear about executions carried out by the unit of which you were a member?
A To give you an exact figure, Mr. Prosecutor, is impossible for me. Out of my own free will, I told you this morning that I heard about shootings through comrades, but I have not heard exact figures or exact dates.
Q Can you estimate how often you heard about executions?
AAny figure that I might give you, Mr. Prosecutor, might be wrong. I said that on various occasions I heard several times about it, but I don't know how many times.
Q All right. Possibly I can ask you something else. Did you hear once a week usually when you were in Russia, or more often then once?
A May I say something else to this, Dr. Hochwald? The Einsatzkommando itself was only in the rarest cases - I do not know of any such case -in the same buildings as the prisoners were housed.
For instance, in Stalino the distance from the prison to the kommando office was at least two kilometers. Therefore, for somebody who actually has this office with the kommando it is not possible to find out when executions are to take place, and it was similar in Dnjepropetrowsk, the prisoners were in the building of the kommandantura, so were the interrogation rooms, so I could not find out about it. hausted and nervous?
A May I say something else to this, Mr. Prosecutor? The office routine, which employed at least thirty people of the armed SS and the Ukrainian auxiliary police, was carried on in such a way that I could not find out about such matters. They were partly in another building and I did not see them come or go. had been in Russia for three weeks, but you have been there for one and a half years. During this one and a half year Einsatzkommando 6 had as its main task the extermination of people; and you tell the Tribunal that you heard about its extermination program as late as in 1946. Do you stand to this testimony?
A Mr. Prosecutor, you say that Einsatzkommando C-6 had as its main task to exterminate people. I can assure you, Mr. Prosecutor, that during the whole time in which I was with Einsatzkommando 6 I was certainly not of the opinion and as far as I can reconstruct happenings I could not have had this opinion, that exterminatings were concerned. I knew that persons were arrested; that they were interrogated; and I knew that after a procedure they were shot, but I did not know anything of exterminations. Did you know it?
or something like that?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot even say anything about there kind of procedure because I don't know anything about it, but I cannot say of what opinion I was during the time I was with Einsatzkommando 6,and then I was of the opinion that they were normal martial law courts.
Q Very well. You told the Tribunal that you were informed by the population when you made your survey of the public opinion -
Q Didn't you learn then the reaction to these activities of Einsatzkommando 6? The population certainly told you a little more than the bare sentence. "By police measure the Jews were killed." Were you not interested to find out how the public opinion reacted to these killings?
A Mr. Prosecutor, it was very difficult for me personally as at that time I did not speak any Russian, and I did not understand it. I tried to learn from various inhabitants, of the town what their attitude was and with this, as I certified this morning, I also heard in Dnjepropetrowsk that the population as such knew about exterminations of Jews, but it wasn't so that everybody told me the same thing but only one or two people who held an official position. That is what I said this morning, for instance, officials of the municipalities, of the Registration Office council, the food supply offices,etc. The population as such spoke very little to me about these things.
Q Didn't those people who told you about these facts,didn't they tell you a little more than just saying Jews were killed, finished? to speak in sort of broken German with me and the drift of these conversations was, "Levy kaput; Robinson Kaput."
That is more or less how it happened. But they did not tell me that they disapproved of the shooting or that they had any emotion or any emotional attitude against the German population or the German occupation, or at least I certainly could not establish this fact at that time. I must say though, that they were somehow shocked, I must admit that. the task of the Einsatzkommando? You must have had some idea why this Einsatzkommando was formed. So you told me that you did not know that the main task of the Einsatzkommando was the extermination of people. Will you tell the Tribunal now what you did think was the main task of the Einsatzgruppe? here, the main task of Einsatzkommandos was the securing of the frontal area and the rear army territory, the security, in fact. out? occupied country, Einsatzkommandos as, for instance, in Norway, France, Czechoslovakia and Poland, and I also knew that the task of these Einsatzkommandos was the security and consisted of fighting active enemy forces by the corresponding officials and men in Department IV, or, at least, that they were arrested, and if they could be found they would be shot. That is what I knew at the time, and that is what I assumed.
Q. Did you think that this was a legitimate activity?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I believed it at the time, for the more reason that I am neither a lawyer myself, nor that I had any knowledge of international law and jurisprudence, and I also did not know what shape the combat between Germany and Russia took.
Q. I do think it is not necessary to be a legal man to know that the population of an occupied country has the right, every citizen of the world has the right for their own lives.
Q Didn't you find out that these activities of Einsatzkommando 6 violated these rights?
A. Not at the time, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. So, you were of the opinion that it was completely legitimate to kill these people?
A. That, of course, I can not say either, Mr. Prosecutor, but I am of the opinion that the only person who can judge whether it is legitimate or illegitimate is the kommando chief because he, after all, decides whether the man to be shot is really shot and because he is the only one who has knowledge of the activities of the kommando.
outfit, should you not have at least a general knowledge of what was going on in this outfit--did you never hear any of your comrades say that this mass shooting of Jews or for instance of insane has been ruining his nerves, ruining his health--did you never hear such a remark? especially members of the Waffen SS said that they would much rather be in the first trenches than here. I asked why, and then they said, "I will not tell you that," this was the gist. situation?
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I imagine that for the person who has to carry out an execution, it is very hard to carry it out.
Q I do not think that you answered my question. I asked you whether you did not guess from these remarks of your fellow soldiers why they did want to be, rather on the battle field than in this outfit.
INTERPRETER HILDESHEIMER: I would like to say something, Mr. Hochwald. You are listening to the witness without us, and the witness is listening to you without us. You must both wait for the interpretation.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal confirms that.
MR. HOCHWALD: I am sorry, Your Honor. BY MR. HOCHWALD: battlefield than in Einsatzkommando 6, did you not? who has been convicted is a hard task for these people. by Einsatzkommando 6, did you not?
A I did not learn of any extensive figures, Mr. Prosecutor, as altogether I did not find any total figures.
page 86, Your Honors, No. 3340, Prosecution Exhibit 22, page 67 of the German, and I am quoting from page 87 in the middle of the page, second to the last paragraph. It is on page 118 in German--I am sorry. Here it is said that" Einsatzkommando 6 shot in the past weeks 173 political officials, 56 saboteurs and looters, and 149 Jews. And if you turn two paragraphs farther you can read that "During the period from January 10 to 6 February 1942 in Dnjepropetrowsk 17 criminals, 103 communists, 16 partisans, and about 350 Jews were shot. In addition 400 inmates of the Igrin mental hospital and 320 inmates of the Vasilkowska mental hospital were disposed of", which means, of course, that they were also killed. These are great numbers and certainly could not have completely escaped?
A May I say something to this document, Mr. Prosecutor; first of all, I do not know anything about the content matter and the origin of this document. Secondly, it becomes evident from his document, as you just said yourself, that Einsatzkommando 6 shot in the past weeks 173 political officials, 56 saboteurs and looters, and 149 Jews. The document itself was issued on the 25th of February 1942. I assume, therefore, that it is based on a report of the Einsatzkommando but it is a fact that the Einsatzkommando 6 had already been in Stalino for three months on 25 February, therefore, I do not quite understand how executions in Dnjepropetrowsk could have been carried out by Einsatzkommando 6. around?
A Quite right, Mr. Prosecutor, but Dnjepropetrowsk was after the 15th of November 1941 under German civil administration according to my knowledge, at least. Therefore, from this date on there was a civil administration in Dnjepropetrowsk, and there was a higher SS and police leader and a high commander of the security police and the SD. When these people were installed, I cannot know that, but I do know that the Einsatzkommando 6 on the 12th of November, as I said today, had evacuated Dnjepropetrowsk completely.
Q How do you reconcile then your statement with the document?
A Mr. Prosecutor, Dr. Hochwald, I only know, I can only tell you what I know. I cannot tell you anything about this do because I did not make it out, and I do not know who compiled it. earlier than in May 1942?
A That is possible. I cannot judge, but I do know that on the 12th of November the Einsatzkommando 6 had completely evacuated Dnjepropetrowsk. When the commander started his job, I do not know.
Q You made the reports for the commando leader, did you not? Gruppe? leader to the group. As a noncommissioned officer, I did not hold authority to send a NSD report to the group myself. numbers of executions were given?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. to the Gruppe?
A No. That was the task of Department IV, Mr. Prosecutor. which turned over their report to the commander and who then passed on the individual reports to the group. commander? but what it said in these reports. I did not know.
Q But Mr. Graf, you have told the Tribunal just a while ago that you knew that people were executed on the basis of the investigations made by Department IV?
Q, Isn't it then true that you. must have also known that the Department IV, when making these reports reported about these activities, is that right?
Q So you know that Department IV was reporting the executions? just killed by Einsatzkommando 6 during the time you were there? Were you never curious to know?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q So you were not concerned with these questions, were you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I am not - an never was a policeman, Matters connected with police actions were entirely foreign to me. Furthermore, as a noncommissioned officer, I had no authority or right to ask anybody about them.
Q All right, but you also had to evaluate documents, is that right?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q If you came into a NKVD building, and you found these documents, didn't you evaluate them; if you got a list of communists, did you not know that you had to hand this list to Department IV so that the people could be shot off--you must have known something about that?
A Yes, but may I tell you something? Did you ever see a list made out in Russian? whether that is a list of clothing, or whether it is names of towns, or what it is - I certainly didn't know it.
Q How could you then evaluate the document?
A I did not want to cay by that, Mr. Prosecutor, that I evaluated it, that it was my task to secure documents of any kind, and the interpreters who were also there in the commando then had to sift the documents and to pass them on to the competent departments.
Q Was that done under your supervision?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, that was under the order of the commander leader who knew Russian fluently and could read every document.
Q Then I am at a loss as to what you had been doing, you couldn't read it, you did not supervise it, so what actually did you do with these documents?
A May I tell you, Mr. Prosecutor, which were the documents which were of special interest to me. They were not the K NKWD documents. That was the task of Department IV. What was of special interest to me were the documents of the special enterprises. When I arrived at an enterprise at which the offices had not been tidied yet and brought into order, there were a number of documents which c mid interest me for SD reports. With these reports I went to see the Chief and I asked him whether I could have an interpreter and then we sifted the necessary documents together.
Q All right. You came to a factory and there was a list of the higher officials. As the factories, all of them, were state owned in Soviet Russia, it can he presumed that the high officials or the higher employees in this factory were all Bolschevist. Did you hand over, when you got these lists, did you hand over these list to Department IV?
A I know what you mean to get at, Mr. Prosecutor, but I am afraid . I cannot he of any help to you here. I could give you a number of names, names of plant managers, names of former departmental chiefs during the Russian period in municipal and state enterprises who were not only not arrested, but who were re-instated in their former positions. I can say here under oath that the chief mayor of Stalino was registered member of the Communist Party, which meant quite a hit in Russia, because as you know, there were only one and a half to two millions. The task of an SD reporter was not to safeguard people. That was again the task of Department IV. My task was, on the contrary, to intervene that skilled labor and experts were employed, even if they were politically not quite sound.
Q And how was it with Jews? If your skilled specialists were Jews, what happened to them?
AAgain I cannot oblige you, Mr. Prosecutor. It is a fact that in the territory around Stalino 95% of the craftsmen, that is, also specialists, were Jews, and a mining enterprise one cannot reinstate without craftsmen. Therefore, Wehrmacht agencies, as well as industrial enterprise which interested themselves in this, had to go on employing a number of Jewish specialists.
Q And how was it with the Jews in Gorlowka, for instance? VI, but I can't say anything about it, because I have never been a member of this subkommando in Gorlowka and because the subkommando, chief, who I think was an Obersturmfuehrer or an Untersturmfuehrer, never told me anything about shootings that had taken place there.
Q But you were in Stalino, were you not? this city? estimate and that would be arbitrary. person was Jewish or every fifteenth person was Jewish, or something like that.
A I can only tell you one thing, Mr. Prosecutor, that through the ceasing of the attack of the German troops in the Dnjepr area and through the extensive radio propoganda on the part of the Red Army which II listened to myself that there were hardly any Jews, or no big number of Jews in the Stalino area. Stalino itself was a town which had only come into existence during the last 20 years, a peasant village of about 1,500 inhabitants, and which grew within a very short time into 250,000 to 300,00 inhabitants. kommando VI?
Q How could that have escaped you?
A I said this morning, Mr. Prosecutor, it was my task to write the SD reports.
Q All right. That I know. However, you have been living in this outfit.