Court No. II, Case No. IX.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I do not have the English transcript with me at the moment, but tomorrow morning I shall be glad to inform the Tribunal,
THE PRESIDENT: I should like to know this afternoon so that I can read it tonight and tomorrow morning I will know what it's all about.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If Your Honors please, I will have it ready about five o'clock this afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Fine. Thank you very much.
DR. RATZ: It was the afternoon session of the 29th of October.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
Q (By Dr. Ratz) Witness, you said that you moved on to Sokal. What happened in Sokal? Kommando to Luck.
Q In what capacity did you join the kommando in Luck? written material which was an activity within the general acitivy of an interpretar and as a departmental expert III.
Q What did you have to do in this assignment? material in the interest of the Reich, as the term was then used, and to safeguard such material. For this purpose I received a packet of confiscation posters which I had to affix to the buildings for this purpose. Then I was given the order on the way to Luck to pass by the Army Headquarters and to obtain general staff maps of the advance area and to take care of them in the future. Apart from that I was supposed to take care of the reporting.
Q Who was in charge of the kommando that proceeded to Luck? kommando. Funk was in charge of the kommando, as I found out later, that is, in Luck. He had to prepare the quarters for the SK 4A which Court No. II, Case No. IX.
was due there and Janssen was in charge of the executive activities.
Q To whom were you responsible in the fulfillment of your task?
Q And who gave you the order? othar officers in the Kommando were concerned?
Q What did you do in Luck? quarters. Then with the aid of the inhabitants, I searched public buildings and inspected them briefly. Wherever I thought there would be files I put up these confiscation posters in order to safeguard them in this way. Then I recruited some Poles and Ukrainians who knew Russian as well as German, and with the six men, who had been put at my disposal by the kommando and those inhabitants I started working on these files. The main task had to be done by myself as the German members of the kommando were vary difficult to train. For this purpose, I had to make many changes in the personnel. The files thus seized were always transported to the main building and there they were stacked up. Then I looked carefully through these files. In this activity I was helped by Counter-Intelligence officers, who also deposited their files in my office. We worked day and night in this activity and we managed to secure extensive material of which one part was sent to the Army. submitted concerning the responsibility of the Defendant Radetzky, in Document Book III-C, on page 20 of the English copy, it is page 28 of the German text, there is Document NO-4438. It is Exhibit 132. It is the affidavit of Radetzky of the 25th of July, 1947. In the summary it is said that you were in charge of an advance kommando in Luck. Did you ever make such a statement?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
A No, in my affidavit of the 25th of July, 1947, under No. 3, I said the following, and I quote:
A. (continued) I quote: "First I went to Hrubgoschow with the Special Kommando and from there to Luck, where I was assigned to a subunit of Sonderkommando 4-A."
THE PRESIDENT: What are you reading from there, witness? You say this is what you said.
DR. HOCHWALD: This is the affidavit of the defendant in Document Book III-C page 20, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I know, I have that affidavit before me but he indicates that the affidavit is in error and he says that he said something different from what appeared in the affidavit and then he read a statement.
DR. HOCHWALD: As far as I could understand he wanted to say that the statement of the Prosecution that he was a leader of a sub-kommando is in error and that he has said in his affidavit only that he was in this sub-komnando. That is how I understood the testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then the affidavit remains as it is before us.
DR. HOCHWALD: He did not contest the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: I am very sorry, I had misunderstood that. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Your Honor, I merely showed the witness the summarization of the Prosecution documents concerning the affidavit of the defendant Radetzky and in contrast to this I showed him his own affidavit. On the basis of this affidavit it is confirmed that he was not the leader of this advance Kommando Luck. 21 August 1947, Document Book III-C, page 30 of the English document book, page 47 of the German text, NO-4765 which is Exhibit 137, made a statement where it says, and I quote:
"The Vorkommando had three officers, namely SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Waldemar von Radetzky and two Obersturmfuehrers whose names I do not remember any more. I remember that one evening a conference was held during our stay at Ludsk, in the course of which Waldemar von Rudetzky as senior officer gave orders to the assembled non-coms safeguard documents and other important materisl in certain buildings.
At that time I had the impression that Radetzky was the head of the Vorkommando although he had never been pointed out to me as such."
Will you comment on this?
A. I have already explained that I was not the chief of Vorkommando Luck, and that it could not have been so. I have already mentioned that I was not familiar with Security Police tasks and for this purpose there were special experts in the advance Kommando who had to deal with these assignments. If the witness Kraege believes that he had gained the impression at the time that I was in charge of the Advanced Kommando then this impression can only have been created because I had a higher rank than the two actual officers of the Kommando. This fact itself, however, does not justify the assumption that I was the responsible officer, especially for exective measures. The chief of Sonderkommando 4-A, Blobel, stated who the officer was in charge of Vorkommando Luck when he was on the witness stand.
Q. Your Honor, I shall submit this statement from the testimony of the defendant Blobel immediately to the Tribunal. Perhaps I can meanwhile proceed. Witness, what rank did you hold at the time and what rank did the other officers hold?
A. I was Hauptsturmfuehrer, or Captain, and the two others were Obersturmfuehrer, or 1st Lieutenants.
Q. The witness Kraege in the affidavit which has just been mentioned also said that in Ludsk one evening there was a discussion in which you, as the highest-ranking officer, gave instructions to the other officers. Now, what did you discuss on that occasion?
A. Soon after my arrival in Ludsk I had a discussion with the non-coms, that is with those people who had been assigned to me for the carrying out of my mission. I gave them directives for securing of enemy documents but no officer of the Kommando was present here because this discussion concerned my particular sphere of activities which was the securing of documents.
Q. Your Honor, I would now like to show you this particular passage from the Blobel statement. It is the transcript of 28 October 1947. It is the morning session and is page 1549 of the German.
Witness, what kind of documents did you then find and secure?
A. There was a great mass of material which had been left behind by the surprising withdrawal of the Russians. I had to pay particular attention to those documents which were of a basic and general significance. I now only remember the following spheres. First of all, documents dealing with the mobilization of the Russian armed forces in case of war with Germany; secondly, documents dealing with the line of advance of a Russian Army; third, purely military files; 4, material concerning activities of Russian agents in non-European states. I remember distinctly I was most surprised to find these documents at Luck of all places covering a period of five years. The remainder were economic files, land distribution schemes, food quotas, taking over of industry by the State, and State decrees to that effect.
Q. Witness, I may show you Document Book II-A, page 76 of the English text, page 84 of the German text, NO-2938, Exhibit 44, "Report of Events No. 24" of the 16 July 1941, and it says, I quote:
"In Luck, furthermore, in the buildings of the Soviet Administration and in various Communist centers, important material was seized in safes, among other things, a list of agents in various countries."
That's the end of the quotation, Please comment on this.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us find it, please, first. What is the original page number?
DR. HOCHWALD: Page 14 of the original. If I am not mistaken your Honor, it's on page 81 of the Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we found it.
DR. RATZ: May I perhaps repeat my quotation. "In Luck, furthermore, in the fuildings of the Soviet Administration and in various other Communist centers, after the safes had been forces open, important material, including, among other things, records relating to Russian agents in various countries, could be discovered."
THE PRESIDENT: Well I don't find that.
MR. HILDESHEIMER: Middle of the page, page 81, page 14 of the original.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, yes, I find some of it but I don't see the reference to "In Luck". There is one paragraph which begins "Moreover, important material, including, among other things, etc," but I don't find this reference to Luch.
DR. HOCHWALD: In the German mileograph it says "in Luck", your Honor. But, it says a little later in the next sentence "buildings of the Luch authorities".
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the phraseology differs between the German and the English.
MR. HILDESHEIMER: Well, I am afraid I just translated it as the defense cousel said it, I didn't have the document. I didn't read it from the document.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, that explains it. BY DR. RATZ:
Q. What did the remainder of the Kommando do during this time as far as you know?
A. The Kommando had secured a number of Wehrmacht camps and was guarding these, otherwise it was occupied with finding quarters.
Q. When did special Kommando 4-A arrive in Luck?
A. I don't remember today exactly. It arrived with Standartenfuehrer Blobel after 4 to six days it arrived in Luck and took up quarters in the quarters that had been prepared.
Q. Were there any other Kommandos in Luck?
A. Yes, one Kommando of the Security Police and SD of the Commander of the General Government and after that the Higher SS and Police Leader Jeckeln arrived with his staff and subordinate units in Luck.
Jeckeln took up quarters in the billets of the Kommando.
Q. The Prosecution, witness, in their submission of evidence on 30 September 1945, has made you responsible for the killing of 1460 Jews, 20 saboteurs, and deputized for the chief of Sonderkommando 4-A. I refer to Document Book II-A, page 76 of the English document book, page 84 of the German document book, NO-2938, Exhibit 44. It is the report of events No. 24, of 16 July 1941.
MR. HOCHWALD: That's page 80, your Honors. The second to the last paragraph on the bottom.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we have it.
Well, it's the same document that he has been quoting from.
DR. RATZ: There it says and I quote: "We succeeded in arresting 200 Jews as well as 20 plunderers who were shot on 30 June. As the corpses of a total of 10 German members of the Wehrmacht had been found on 2 July, 1060 Jews were shot as reprisal for the assassination of the German soldiers and the Ukrainians with the help of one platoon of the police and one platoon of the infantry. Finally on 6 July, it was possible to disciver altogether 50 Polish agents and spies who were liquidated also."
Did you find out anything about these executions?
A. Yes one or two days after my arrival in Luck Janssen informed me that the local commander or the responsible division commander had ordered a retaliation measure for these 3000 Ukrainians who had been shot by the Russians, If and when such an operation took place I don't know because neither I nor any of the men who were subordinated to me for this particular operation took part in such an action.
THE PRESIDENT: Who did you say ordered the execution?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I heard that it was the town commander of Luck who had ordered a retaliation measure.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, there is nothing in the report to suggest that.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can only say what I heard then.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all this is listed under the activities of Einsatzkommando 4a, isn't it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is so. It says so in the report of events.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, do you attack the reliability of that statement, that all this was done by Einsatzkommando 4a?
THE WITNESS: That I cannot doubt, your Honor, I have no exact knowledge about who carried out this execution, and I can only say what I know about it, and I know that I was informed at the time by Janssen that the town major had ordered a retaliation measure to take place.
THE PRESIDENT: Who is Janssen?
THE WITNESS: Janssen was an officer of the kommando who had the order for the executive activity. He was in charge of executive measures in the Vorkommando Luck.
Q. (By Dr. Ratz) Do you mean one of the officers of SK 4a?
A. Yes, an officer of SK 4a.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, proceed.
Q. (By Dr. Ratz) What else did you learn about this?
A. When Blobel arrived in Luck he informed us that Field Marshal Reichenau, the Supreme Commander of the Sixth Army; had issued the order to eliminate an equal number of Jews for the murdered 3,000 Ukrainian members of the intelligentsia. Blobel had arrived in Luck and he was ill. According to my memory, a physician was called immediately who wanted to take him to the field hospital. As far as I heard, Blobel resisted this and agreed with the physician on intensive treatment. The officers of the kommando met, and discussed what to do next, Hauptsturmfuehrer Karlsen to whom Blobel had transferred the command of the Einsatzkommando presided over this meeting. At the end of this discussion my advice was sought. Nobody knew what was to be done, and I suggested to take Blobel to the field hospital in any case, as on the one hand the physician thought he had dysentery, and on the other hand this would be a good opportunity not to carry out the order. I said that I would be prepared to take over the job of taking Blobel to the field hospital. I went to see the chief of the Wehrmacht field hospital in Luck. I described to him what it was all about, and I went to see Blobel, together with him. He was the Oberstabsarzt, Dr. Braeuer, chief medical officer of the hospital. Blobel had a high temperature and was delirious. The physician was most upset about the state of health of his colleague. He made out an admission card for the field hospital in Lublin, and he treated Blobel. Blobel was taken to his car, and I went to Lublin with him the same evening, where we arrived in the morning and took him to the hospital there. I took a disinfecting bath the next day in Lublin, and I returned to Luck the day after that where I confirmed the task of seizing documents which I have already dealt with.
ated the execution that had been ordered, and the liaison officer of Group C to Jeckeln, Sturmbannfuehrer Meyer, had taken over the kommando. I cannot make any statements concerning figures because I was not informed about them, and I only know that it was a large-scale execution.
Q. Witness, did you, as far as the ordering or carrying out of the execution was concerned, have anything to do with this execution?
A. No.
Q. This was the first case in which you found out about an execution. In this connection, therefore, I want to put a few questions to you which have cropped up in these proceedings repeatedly. My first question is, what was your attitude to the Fuehrer Order as passed on to you by the Chief of SK 4a in Sokal, the order, that is, of ruthlessly proceeding against Communist functionaries?
A. As I have explained, when this Fuehrer Order was made known in Sokal, I immediately approached Blobel, and asked him for an exact delimitation of my assignment. I told him on that occasion that I was ordered to join the SK 4a as an interpreter and I only wanted to be used in this function. I cannot remember the exact wording of that particular discussion, but I remember that I added that I did not want to be used in security measures of the kommando.
Q. Why did you not want to have anything to do with such measures?
A. I had a different idea of a future German Eastern policy than the one I now found in its severity. At the beginning of the war I was put into these conditions, and I had no clear picture of the aims of the German Eastern policy at that time.
In my naive way, at the time, I thought that with persuasion and with clever political activity one could perhaps break Bolshevism.
Q. What was your attitude concerning, especially, the so-called Fuehrer Order?
A. First I regarded the possible measures to be carried out in compliance with the Fuehrer Order as purely military necessities for the security of the German Wehrmacht. At that time I could not tell to what extent these measures were regarded as necessary by the Army as military measures in the face of an enemy who in his ruthless and brutal attitude would use any means of combat, leaving out any basic principles. But I was not absolutely clear about this or the other necessity; the extent of these measures later on, but especially the extension of the measures to anti-Jewish operations was against my attitude towards other nationalities who had grown up with me in a centuries-old cultural environment.
Q. If I understand you correctly, your attitude, therefore, was against the effects of the Fuehrer Order?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And how did you react to the happenings in Luck?
A. I asked the leader of the kommando about the possibility of my leaving. He said that I could only be relieved if I was prepared to go to a concentration camp from which I would not return.
THE PRESIDENT: Who said this?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, he was one of the leaders of the kommando. I think it was Janssen. I don't remember exactly today.
THE PRESIDENT: When you say one of the leaders, what do you mean? How many leaders were there of the kommando?
THE WITNESS: In the kommando there were seven officers.
THE PRESIDENT: Were they all leaders?
THE WITNESS; Well, they had an officer's rank. They did not lead the kommando, but they had an officer's rank. I mean officers.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you had an officer's rank too, didn't you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Then were you a leader of the kommando?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty. (The Tribunal adjourned until 16 December 1947, at 0930 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ:
Q Witness, my last question to you yesterday was: "how did you react to the happenings in Luck?" You talked about the discussion with an officer of the kommando - then you did not conclude your report concerning this yesterday. from the service, and if one would want to do so it was only possible via a concentration camp. The only possibility would be to have myself recalled by the office I had been working with up till then. Thereupon I sent an urgent request to the office for the repatriation of ethnic Germansim in Berlin and asked to be released from this assignment and to give another task to me. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You don't recall the name of the officer with whom you spoke?
A I can't say exactly, your Honor. I think it must have been Janssen.
Q This was in Pretzsch?
the duties to which the Kommando would be assigned? not know the tasks of the Kommando. be required to execute Jews?
A No, your Honor. That I learned only in Sokal. I stated yesterday that these discussions mentioned here with Streckenbach and Heydrich in Berlin I did not take part in and that I did not know about these discussions. The Proclamation of the Fuehrer order was only made after we had arrived in Russia in Sokol before the Kommando had started its activity and after Blobel had returned from his first visit to General Field Marshal Reichenau.
Q Very well, proceed, Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ:
Q When did you leave Lutzk? for the seizure of documents. I spent an afternoon there and then went back to Lutzk, as in Rowno I had convinced myself that this had been evacuated according to plan and that any important material as we had gathered in Lutzk could not be taken. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Dr. Ratz-----Of course, witness, you are not responsible for what any other defendant says, but since your name is mentioned very specifically in this interrogation, or rather examination of Blobel on the witness stand, it is certainly relevant to call it to your attention. Blobel was questioned by Mr. Hochwald and the questions and answers ran something like this:
"Q All right, Did you ever speak with Radetsky about the Fuehrer order as the order was handed down by Streckehbach?
"A The general information about happenings in Pretzsch or what had been said by Streckenbach in Pretzsch was in the presence of all the leaders and they, of couse, were immediately informed about it.
"Q So Radetsky knew about this order?
"A Why, the leaders knew the order, the leaders were aware of the order.
"Q Did you ever speak to him about this order?
"A It was in fact discussed by us in Pretzsch.
"Q Did you, Mr. Blobel, speak to Hautsturmfuehrer Radetsky about the Hitler order?
"A Yes, and then so on. Now you heard, what I have just read and you see what Blobel said. Do you contest the correctness of what Blobel said? assume, then, I have to contest it, I understood Blobel to another effect when he gave his testimony because I did not learn of this order in Pretsch and I don't think that another Kommando officer had knowledge about it at that time because otherwise it would have been discussed publicly. Personally two days before we left when the Kommando had already been set up, I joined the Kommando. It is possible, I don't know when, this discussion with Streckenbach had taken place but it is possible if Blobel informed the officers at that time simultaneously that this Information was given before I joined the Kommando, but I believe I can exclude this possibility because other wise I would have heard something about it. I do not believe that such an important and essential question would not have been discussed in any shape whatsoever or not mentioned. were to execute the order? You have heard many defendants speak here about receiving the order in Pretzsch.
A No, your Honor, it was not discussed. The order was proclaimed to us in Sokal when we reached the Russian border.
Q Well, but you don't say that it wasn't proclaimed in Pretzsch also, do you?
Q Proceed, Dr. Ratz. BY DR. RATZ: after a short stay in Rowno you returned to Lutzk. What did you do then in Lutzk? I went on going through the documents again and sifted them until an order reached me to come to Rowno, in order to join another advance Kommando which was supposed to go to Shitomir. In Lutzk before I left I equipped a truck with material which was going to Berlin. stay there?
A No. I arrived late and I immediately joined the Kommando which was advancing to Shitomir. text.
MR. HOCHWALD: Page 48 of the English, the last paragraph from the bottom, your Honor.
DR. RATZ: 2934, Exhibit 78. It is a report of events #19 of 11 July 1941 and it says: I quote:
"Einsatzkommando 4-A still in Rowno where executions took place of 240 Bolshevist, predominantly Jewish functionaries Officials, agents, etc. Vorkommando of 4-A set in march via Cudnow to proceed to Shitomir as soon as that area is secure to some extent. Another section of 4-A, in accordance with a wish expressed by Army Headquarters, takes over the area south of Rowno, in a width of 20 kilometers to the Fast as a security measure, One section of the Sonderkommando from Lublin has arrived.
Did you have anything to do with this execution mentioned here? joined the Kommando which was advancing to Shitomir.
BY DR. RATZ:
Q Did you over learn anything about this execution?
Q When did you arrive at Shitomir? Shitomir, as the front had been broken meanwhile and we had to take a number of detours covered by tanks and had to push through to Shitomir.
Q What did the Kommando do and what did you do in Shitomir? become sort of an alarm unit as the military unit in the place. Then I searched the buildings for documents and secured them and I found billets for the Kommando, secured these billets and I equipped them.
Q Do you know when the group staff arrived in Shitomir?
A No, I do not know when the group staff arrived. I only know that it arrived from the road between Rowno and Shitomir a few days after the Kommando. I was informed that the Adjutant of Rasch the commander of the Einsatzgruppe had been killed when the unit had been transferred. Document Book.
DR. HOCHWALD: Page 16 of the English, Your Honors. That's the third paragraph from the bottom under the heading "page 7".
BY DR. RATZ:
Q No.-2952, Exhibit 71. This is the report of event #37 of the 29 July 1941 and it says, I quote:
"In Shitomir itself Gruppenstab and Vorauskommando 4-A in cooperation have up to date shot, all in all, approximately 400 Jews, Communists, and informants for the NKWD." Do you know anything about this execution? I informed about anything concerning it. Personally I assumed, but as I say it is only an assumption, that if the Einsatzgruppe ordered such an execution, it must have been responsible for the carrying out of the execution itself.
Q What did you do then in Shitomir? addressed to the office for the repatriation of ethnic Germans to be released from the Einsatzgruppe and since it could not he expected very soon I dedicated myself intensively to my actual task of reporting. I had to do this the more as the additional assignment tive of the Einsatzgruppe, Dr. Beyer, had been turned over to the interpreter Mueller. Mueller had spent all his life in the Ukraine and knew the Ukrainian language which I did not know. Ukrainian questions?
A The situation was the following. In 1917 after the Russian Revolution -BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, just before you go into that, please. Do you say that you did not understand the Ukrainian language? your linguistic talents. knew where the Kommando was going to operate, and if they took you as in interpreter certainly they would assume that you would speak the language of the territory in which the unit was to operate. because I know Latvian and I know a little Estonian and it would have been the most natural thing to do to send me to my old home country, but this was not done but I was assigned to the Kommando which went to the Ukraine.
language?
A To the Kommando officer?
Q Yes. When you were being considered for this post did you have them believe, because of what you said, or because of your attitude, did you lead them to believe that you were familiar with the Ukrainian language? the Ukrainian language, couldn't they? ge? nil in this Kommando?
A No, Your Honor. There is a great distinction between the Ukrainian language and the Russian. The difference is one of dialect. One can make one self understood in emergency cases.
Q Well, did you then know the Ukrainian language? Ukrainian language? speak the Ukrainian language, and I understood your question to the effect whether I know, whether I was aware of the Ukrainian language, whether I knew its consistance, whether there is a distinction between the Russian and the Ukrainian, I knew the distinction.